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Questions about Contrac, Protecta bait stations etc.
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| Joe Doe 2005-06-16, 2:33 pm |
| I have put contrac in Protecta bait stations. In most locations the
bait is not touched. At one location the bait is consumed at a slow
rate ( say 8 blocks over a month or two). Recently, I put the contrac
out on a plate (in the crawlspace of a pier and beam house) the bait is
removed at a fantastic rate (10/12 blocks a night - essentially all that
I put out). This has been happening over the last week and about 30
blocks were consumed. The crawlspace skirt has a few small gaps where
the skirt meets the ground and is not perfectly sealed but not something
big enough for a large animal like a cat or dog to breach. The gaps
are certainly big enough for easy access for a rodent.
My questions are:
1) Could a single rodent simply carry off lots of bait without eating it
(i.e. do they hoard food on this level?
2) How much bait can a single rodent consume?
3) What are common rates of bait removal in cases where there are no
visible signs of rodents - no droppings visible or other evidence. Of
rodent activity? I.e. presumed low level of rodents.
4) What is bait acceptance in a bait station compared to open placement
(in a restricted space like the crawlspace)? It would seem that the
rodent certainly does not bother to enter the bait station but feeds
from the open bait willingly. I presume something like a raccoon could
be burrowing in and eating the bait. I was surprised to find the LD50
for bromodiolone (contrac active ingredient) was about 28 ounces for a
20 lb dog so I guess a raccoon could easily consume the 30 blocks and be
unaffected.
5) What is the relative effectiveness of trapping vs poisoning vs
exclusion: I have tried to trap (Haveaheart trap and snap traps and
caught nothing).
By way of background I have no pets and have had an intermittent flea
problem (2-3 bursts a year controlled with flea bombs with an IGR) for
the last three years (time I owned this house). I found Norway rat
droppings in the attic and saw a squirrel nesting there - birds used to
nest here prior to my buying it and excluding them. I presume the flea
problem is because of some uninvited guests. I called in a pro and he
said he could not warranty the exclusion of points of entry because
access to some pipes making attic penetration were limited in the
crawlspace. He also advised against repairing the skirt around the house
because he said rodents would simply burrow under it. He put in some
exclusion but I have no confidence it was effective - old pier and beam
house with too many potential points of entry. I have not seen fresh
evidence of droppings in the attic.
I can be reached at rsaldanh@mail.utexas.edu if you prefer to reply via
e-mail.
Thank you.
Roland
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| bugs@bugs.com 2005-06-16, 2:33 pm |
| This is a great question for Craig, He will probably see it tomorrow and
will have some fantastic answers for you. Please be patient because his
answers will be worth the wait.
--
I wish you all the best
Tim Wise
www.onepest.com
www.askourpros.com
| |
|
| In article <None-B341F9.13571508062005@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>,
None@mail.utexas.edu says...
 My questions are:
1) Could a single rodent simply carry off lots of bait without eating it
(i.e. do they hoard food on this level?
I can't think of ever seeing rats carry off blocks.
2) How much bait can a single rodent consume?
3) What are common rates of bait removal in cases where there are no
visible signs of rodents - no droppings visible or other evidence. Of
rodent activity? I.e. presumed low level of rodents.
4) What is bait acceptance in a bait station compared to open placement
(in a restricted space like the crawlspace)? It would seem that the
rodent certainly does not bother to enter the bait station but feeds
from the open bait willingly. I presume something like a raccoon could
be burrowing in and eating the bait. I was surprised to find the LD50
for bromodiolone (contrac active ingredient) was about 28 ounces for a
20 lb dog so I guess a raccoon could easily consume the 30 blocks and be
unaffected.
With initial placement the open placement may be fed on quicker due to
the rat does not have to get used to the bait station. You'd be
surprised to how small an opening opposums can get down to (tennis ball
size)and I have seen cases where they have eaten quite a bit of bait and
not be killed.
5) What is the relative effectiveness of trapping vs poisoning vs
exclusion: I have tried to trap (Haveaheart trap and snap traps and
caught nothing).
Depends on the circumstances your dealing with as to what may be more
effective. You might put out a blob of peanut butter and see if
anything gets it. If it is eaten then sprinkle out a coating of flour or
talcom powder and put a new blob in the middle and see what tracks you
have.
--
Lar
to email....get rid of the BUGS
| |
| Joe Doe 2005-06-16, 2:33 pm |
| In article <MPG.1d11671b8a9c3c70989741@netnews.comcast.net>,
Lar <larlfu@comcastBUGS.net> wrote:
quote:
> In article <None-B341F9.13571508062005@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>,
> None@mail.utexas.edu says...
> My questions are:
>
> 1) Could a single rodent simply carry off lots of bait without eating it
> (i.e. do they hoard food on this level?
>
> I can't think of ever seeing rats carry off blocks.
Several web sources claim rats hoard food.
http://www.pested.msu.edu/BullSlide.../E-2048Rats.pdf
says on page 155 of the PDF:
"Rats often cache or hoard food in hidden areas. This food may or may
not be eaten when other food supplies run short. Hoarding is important
for two reasons. First, rats may be moving toxic bait into a location
where the label does not permit it to be. Second, rats may be hoarding
poison bait while feeding on their regular food. Thus, a baiting program
becomes ineffective."
http://wildlifedamage.unl.edu/handb...PDF/ro_b125.pdf
Says under feeding habits (page B-127):
"Rats usually begin searching for food shortly after sunset. If the
food is in an
exposed area and too large to be eaten quickly, but not too large to be
moved, they will usually carry it to a hiding place before eating it.
Many rats may cache or hoard considerable amounts of solid food, which
they eat later. Such caches may be found in a dismantled wood pile,
attic, or behind boxes in a garage."
Other sources more or less confirm this.
http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/ais31.pdf
http://www.belllabs.com/images/reports/intfall02.pdf
So I was probably not being wise by placing the bait unsecured because
they could carry off the bait without eating it.
quote:
>
> 5) What is the relative effectiveness of trapping vs poisoning vs
> exclusion: I have tried to trap (Haveaheart trap and snap traps and
> caught nothing).
> Depends on the circumstances your dealing with as to what may be more
> effective. You might put out a blob of peanut butter and see if
> anything gets it. If it is eaten then sprinkle out a coating of flour or
> talcom powder and put a new blob in the middle and see what tracks you
> have.
Thank you. The flour trick is a great idea - something is definitely
eating/hoarding the bait. Getting paw prints should help positive ID.
Thanks again for your input.
Roland
| |
| Joe Doe 2005-06-16, 2:33 pm |
| In article <None-B341F9.13571508062005@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>,
Joe Doe <None@mail.utexas.edu> wrote:
I was surprised to find the LD50
quote:
> for bromodiolone (contrac active ingredient) was about 28 ounces for a
> 20 lb dog so I guess a raccoon could easily consume the 30 blocks and be
> unaffected.
Ooops, LD50 of 28 ounces is for Contrac as formulated not for
bromodiolone itself.
| |
|
| In article <None-13D30D.19475709062005@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>,
None@mail.utexas.edu says...
In article <MPG.1d11671b8a9c3c70989741@netnews.comcast.net>,
Lar <larlfu@comcastBUGS.net> wrote:
> In article <None-B341F9.13571508062005@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>,
> None@mail.utexas.edu says...
> My questions are:
>
> 1) Could a single rodent simply carry off lots of bait without eating it
> (i.e. do they hoard food on this level?
>
> I can't think of ever seeing rats carry off blocks.
Several web sources claim rats hoard food.
http://www.pested.msu.edu/BullSlide.../E-2048Rats.pdf
says on page 155 of the PDF:
"Rats often cache or hoard food in hidden areas. This food may or may
not be eaten when other food supplies run short. Hoarding is important
for two reasons. First, rats may be moving toxic bait into a location
where the label does not permit it to be. Second, rats may be hoarding
poison bait while feeding on their regular food. Thus, a baiting program
becomes ineffective."
If I recall you had mentioned placing out bait blocks in which I can't
recall hearing of them hauling off a block. In baits such as pellets
they will readily haul it off as they will dry dog food..peanuts, etc
to have a cache for future use.
--
Lar
to email....get rid of the BUGS
| |
| Joe Doe 2005-06-16, 2:33 pm |
| In article <MPG.1d16a7e5cf719ec7989743@netnews.comcast.net>,
Lar <larlfu@comcastBUGS.net> wrote:
quote:
> In article <None-13D30D.19475709062005@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>,
> None@mail.utexas.edu says...
quote:
> Several web sources claim rats hoard food.
>
> http://www.pested.msu.edu/BullSlide.../E-2048Rats.pdf
>
> says on page 155 of the PDF:
>
> "Rats often cache or hoard food in hidden areas. This food may or may
> not be eaten when other food supplies run short. Hoarding is important
> for two reasons. First, rats may be moving toxic bait into a location
> where the label does not permit it to be. Second, rats may be hoarding
> poison bait while feeding on their regular food. Thus, a baiting program
> becomes ineffective."
>
>
> If I recall you had mentioned placing out bait blocks in which I can't
> recall hearing of them hauling off a block. In baits such as pellets
> they will readily haul it off as they will dry dog food..peanuts, etc
> to have a cache for future use.
Yes, it was blocks, I am still not sure what is happening - everything
dissapears - no evidence of feeding i.e no crumbs left. In the past the
blocks would be chewed and some crumbled stuff would be left.
Currently, nothing is left, this guy really wipes the plate clean. I
have run out of blocks and figured if it can consume so many it is
probably a very large animal like a racoon/possum and I do not
necessarily want to kill them. Since, I am out of blocks I have not
yet tried your fluour idea to try and ID tracks. I hope to dust the
area with flour soon though.
I have some animal take a generous dump in the yard, I am not expert at
identifying an animal from scat. It seems to revisit the same place in
the yard (small low spot in open area i.e not near a tree or bushes or
mulched area etc) and does not cover up after itself.
Roland
| |
| Craig Riekena 2005-06-16, 2:33 pm |
| Greetings, sorry for the delayed response, I've been on vacation (yes,
even I get one once in awhile). I'm going to try my best here to help
you with this. Sometimes diagnosing these things can take a while, in
the end I and the fine folks here will do our best to help you.
On Wed, 08 Jun 2005 13:57:15 -0500, Joe Doe <None@mail.utexas.edu>
wrote:
quote:
>I have put contrac in Protecta bait stations. In most locations the
>bait is not touched. At one location the bait is consumed at a slow
>rate ( say 8 blocks over a month or two). Recently, I put the contrac
>out on a plate (in the crawlspace of a pier and beam house) the bait is
>removed at a fantastic rate (10/12 blocks a night - essentially all that
>I put out). This has been happening over the last week and about 30
>blocks were consumed. The crawlspace skirt has a few small gaps where
>the skirt meets the ground and is not perfectly sealed but not something
>big enough for a large animal like a cat or dog to breach. The gaps
>are certainly big enough for easy access for a rodent.
A few questions before I get to those below. Are you sure that you
have rats in that area? Are the bait stations in the same locations
that you are seeing the rats? - location is everything! If you are
seeing rats and bait is now being eaten, has the number and or
evidence of rats diminished? Answers to your questions below:
quote:
> My questions are:
>
>1) Could a single rodent simply carry off lots of bait without eating it
>(i.e. do they hoard food on this level?
While rodents can and do hoard food, the hoarding of blocks is a
little unusual owing to the large size of the blocks. Rods are
typically used for blocks in bait stations not to prevent hoarding but
to prevent moving the bait around within the station, thus allowing
children or other non-targets to get access to the bait.
quote:
>2) How much bait can a single rodent consume?
An average rat can consume up to 20 - 30 grams of food per day. Only a
few grams are needed to kill a rat but they don't seem to know that!
quote:
>3) What are common rates of bait removal in cases where there are no
>visible signs of rodents - no droppings visible or other evidence. Of
>rodent activity? I.e. presumed low level of rodents.
With rats dropping will most certainly always be present. The
droppings are emitted at a constant rate. The presence of urine is
also likely. Again, removal of blocks from stations is highly
unusual. The complete cleanout from the plates you mention above
combined with the information that you are finding no droppings has me
wondering. It is certainly possible that other creature are getting
the baits - squirrels, voles, chipmunks, even slugs.
quote:
>4) What is bait acceptance in a bait station compared to open placement
>(in a restricted space like the crawlspace)? It would seem that the
>rodent certainly does not bother to enter the bait station but feeds
>from the open bait willingly. I presume something like a raccoon could
>be burrowing in and eating the bait. I was surprised to find the LD50
>for bromodiolone (contrac active ingredient) was about 28 ounces for a
>20 lb dog so I guess a raccoon could easily consume the 30 blocks and be
>unaffected.
Acceptance of a bait in a bait station vs open placement is variable.
General bait stations are used when non-target species exposure or
environmental exposure to the baits is a concern. If these issues are
not a concern I would probably not use a bait station myself. I see
from elsewhere that you worked out the toxicity rates.
quote:
>5) What is the relative effectiveness of trapping vs poisoning vs
>exclusion: I have tried to trap (Haveaheart trap and snap traps and
>caught nothing).
Exclusion is always preferable, although sometimes impossible.
Exclusion will eliminate a problem, whereas baiting or trapping can
only control a rodent problem. Poisoning is almost always more
effective for long term or intensive infestations as it allows mass
treatment over extended periods (particularly when weatherized blocks
are used). Trapping is effective for smaller problems where the traps
can be closely monitored and cleaned out. Live trapping requires very
intensive (daily) monitoring and, at best, displaces an infestation.
quote:
>By way of background I have no pets and have had an intermittent flea
>problem (2-3 bursts a year controlled with flea bombs with an IGR) for
>the last three years (time I owned this house). I found Norway rat
>droppings in the attic and saw a squirrel nesting there - birds used to
>nest here prior to my buying it and excluding them. I presume the flea
>problem is because of some uninvited guests. I called in a pro and he
>said he could not warranty the exclusion of points of entry because
>access to some pipes making attic penetration were limited in the
>crawlspace. He also advised against repairing the skirt around the house
>because he said rodents would simply burrow under it. He put in some
>exclusion but I have no confidence it was effective - old pier and beam
>house with too many potential points of entry. I have not seen fresh
>evidence of droppings in the attic.
Well, hopefully the lack of dropping means that the rat situation is
currently under control. I'd be interested in hearing how it goes.
quote:
>
>I can be reached at rsaldanh@mail.utexas.edu if you prefer to reply via
>e-mail.
>
>Thank you.
>
>Roland
Hope any or some of this helps.
Craig A. Riekena
Bell Laboratories, Inc.
| |
| Craig Riekena 2005-06-17, 11:34 pm |
| On Tue, 14 Jun 2005 19:33:49 -0500, Joe Doe <None@mail.utexas.edu>
wrote:
quote:
>Secondly, in online searches I found some reports of bromodiolone
>resistance in UK. Is there any resistance in the US?
In the UK and elsewhere in Europe there have been a variety of reports
of resistance to several of the anticoagulants, including
bromadiolone. None of these have been well documented and tend to be
anecdotal in nature. Nonetheless, indiscriminant use, particularly
wide spread field use of baits can cause resistant. The best way to
prevent is quite simple - rotate your bait usage. One thing to keep in
mind though - resistance does not mean that the rodents are immune to
the baits - it means that it might just take a little more!
quote:
>Since I am out of bait I was thinking of rotating poisons, what would
>you suggest among Bell Lab products? Final? Fastrac?
Either should be okay. If you do not have any concerns over non-target
exposures I'd probably try to Fastrac, otherwise Final is very good
too.
quote:
>My understanding is that Brodifacoum is most potent currently available
>"over the counter" rodenticide. Other than the risk of acute poisoning
>to non target animals is there any other downside to using something
>like this?
Hmmm…not really. The non-target exposure is the issue folks use
against it. Again, the reality of non-target exposure is much smaller
than the reality. If it's used in areas where other animals can get to
it - use a bait box. Now I know in your case the bait boxes presented
a unique dilemma but I still must encourage you to use them if you
can.
quote:
>Secondly, in terms of the animal dying where I do not want it (my
>crawlspace) is a less potent rodenticide like Contrac preferable to a
>more potent one like Final?
Sadly, I've seen little evidence that the type of bait has any effect
on where the animals die. They may die in their nest if the colony
population load is low, or they may die out in the open if the
population load is high. You may hear rumors that certain baits make
the animals thirsty and they therefore leave to seek water. These are
nice, but patently false, tales.
Craig of Bell Labs
| |
|
| In article <nag6b1lt17d5q6ft4mt9m9ui9chgp4d4c4@4ax.com>,
craigsngs@yahoo.com says...
Craig of Bell Labs
Craig
If your stock prices for Bell aren't up this quarter, don't blame me.
Been going thru 4-6 lbs a week the last 5 weeks.
--
Lar
to email....get rid of the BUGS
| |
| Joe Doe 2005-06-19, 4:25 am |
| In article <nag6b1lt17d5q6ft4mt9m9ui9chgp4d4c4@4ax.com>,
Craig Riekena <craigsngs@yahoo.com> wrote:
quote:
>
> Hmmm…not really. The non-target exposure is the issue folks use
> against it. Again, the reality of non-target exposure is much smaller
> than the reality. If it's used in areas where other animals can get to
> it - use a bait box. Now I know in your case the bait boxes presented
> a unique dilemma but I still must encourage you to use them if you
> can.
I have the bait in boxes under my deck (which has public access) and
open placed in my crawlspace and attic.
On the Cornell Web site they have a good summary of the target
specificity of brodifacoum - they say LD50 is 1.4 gram of Havoc (.005%)
to kill 250 gram rat and it would take 1000 grams to kill a 2000 gram
Cat, and 350 -1000 grams for a 5 Kg dog so the specificity seems quite
impressive. I research these things because my neighbors have pets and
I want to be very certain I can never be accused of contributing to
their demise.
Cornell web site:
http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/profile...d-prof-brodifac
oum.html
Thanks to all for their input.
Roland
| |
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| In article <None-964299.21141618062005@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>,
None@mail.utexas.edu says...
I am asking this because I am trying to calibrate my rate of bait
removal to "normal". If you use 6 lbs of bait over 6 houses then it
works out to about a pound a week per house. If it is 60 houses then it
is only .1 pound a week per house.
I'll use 4-8 blocks on initial call...follow up 4-5 days later to
replenish if bait is all gone will put out the same as earlier..if the
stations haven't been totally cleaned out I'll replenish half the
amount. When activity has stopped I'll reduce amount of stations per
home.
Secondly is this rate of replenishment for problem houses (with known
rodent problems) or just "normal" houses where you have bait boxes as
part of a larger maintenance program.
These will be homes that have called in because of rodent sighting or
when I am doing the quarterly service, I happen to notice activity. For
over 5 weeks straight I was averaging 2-3 calls a day (5 day week) not
counting what I came across during the day on my own.
Lastly, for a "normal" house i.e with no known rodent problem for what
lengths of time could you go with no bait being touched?
If it is in an area like an attic it can go for years then all of the
sudden it starts to show signs of activity. Most time though the baits
will deteriorate after a season or two from the attic heat or it will
attract the large outdoor roaches that will readily consume it. Outside
and crawl space placements usually will only last a few months if not
only weeks due to mildew snails/slugs and roaches.
--
Lar
to email....get rid of the BUGS
| |
| Craig Riekena 2005-06-21, 6:26 pm |
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On Sat, 18 Jun 2005 20:59:29 -0500, Joe Doe <None@mail.utexas.edu>
wrote:
quote:
>Thanks to all for their input.
>
>Roland
No problem at all Roland. Trust me, I would always much rather have
people ask than potentially poison thier own or the neighbor's pets.
Craig of Bell Labs
| |
| Craig Riekena 2005-06-21, 6:26 pm |
| On Fri, 17 Jun 2005 21:38:59 -0500, Lar <larlfu@comcastBUGS.net>
wrote:
quote:
>If your stock prices for Bell aren't up this quarter, don't blame me.
>Been going thru 4-6 lbs a week the last 5 weeks.
If only we sold stock.......
Craig of Bell Labs
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