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Water Column Question
|
|
| Al Moran 2005-10-30, 9:21 am |
| If you have a ng furnace and the water column is set at 3.5, you burn
a certain amount of btu's per hour. What would happen, as far as btu
usage, if you were to set the wc to 3.0? Will you save money on
natural gas this way?
My thinking is this: If you run it at 3.0 wc, while it may be burning
less btu's, it will run longer to reach the stat set point, which
would negate any savings you may have seen.
In other words, i am assuming that greater water column equals greater
btu's, which equals greater heat, and visa versa.
Somehow, my brain is telling me, however, that this is not right as I
have seen increased gas bills caused by having the wc set above 3.5.
So which is it?
| |
| ..p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com 2005-10-30, 9:21 am |
| On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 13:08:22 GMT, Al Moran <AlMoran@hotmail.com>
wrote:
>If you have a ng furnace and the water column is set at 3.5, you burn
>a certain amount of btu's per hour. What would happen, as far as btu
>usage, if you were to set the wc to 3.0? Will you save money on
>natural gas this way?
No.
> My thinking is this: If you run it at 3.0 wc, while it may be burning
>less btu's, it will run longer to reach the stat set point, which
>would negate any savings you may have seen.
Yep.
>In other words, i am assuming that greater water column equals greater
>btu's, which equals greater heat, and visa versa.
>
> Somehow, my brain is telling me, however, that this is not right as I
>have seen increased gas bills caused by having the wc set above 3.5.
If you are set above the point where the furnace can operate
efficiently ( correct air / fuel mix, and not overwhelming the heat ex
capacity), then yes, you could increase the bill via more waste heat
up the flue.
>
>So which is it?
Click here every day to feed an animal that needs you today !!!
http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/
Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'
'With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.'
HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/
| |
| Bubba 2005-10-30, 10:21 am |
| On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 13:08:22 GMT, Al Moran <AlMoran@hotmail.com>
wrote:
>If you have a ng furnace and the water column is set at 3.5, you burn
>a certain amount of btu's per hour. What would happen, as far as btu
>usage, if you were to set the wc to 3.0? Will you save money on
>natural gas this way?
>
> My thinking is this: If you run it at 3.0 wc, while it may be burning
>less btu's, it will run longer to reach the stat set point, which
>would negate any savings you may have seen.
>
>In other words, i am assuming that greater water column equals greater
>btu's, which equals greater heat, and visa versa.
>
> Somehow, my brain is telling me, however, that this is not right as I
>have seen increased gas bills caused by having the wc set above 3.5.
>
>So which is it?
Christ! Another wannabe engineer.
After you soot the damn thing up or, even better,............kill
yourself and your family from the CO you have produced by performing
your stupid experiments, maybe then you'll learn.
Bubba
| |
| Al Moran 2005-10-30, 10:21 am |
| On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 13:36:14 GMT, Bubba <ReMoVe likealake@iname.com>
wrote:
>Christ! Another wannabe engineer.
>After you soot the damn thing up or, even better,............kill
>yourself and your family from the CO you have produced by performing
>your stupid experiments, maybe then you'll learn.
>Bubba
Um, fyi, I happen to be a rookie hvac tech and was asking the question
so 1. I know the answer, and 2. So I could avoid things like you
described. Here's your sign, now run along.
| |
| Noon-Air 2005-10-30, 10:21 am |
|
"Al Moran" <AlMoran@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:fqg9m1d2oefebusll71uv9iuhfshhopr08@4ax.com...
> If you have a ng furnace and the water column is set at 3.5, you burn
> a certain amount of btu's per hour. What would happen, as far as btu
> usage, if you were to set the wc to 3.0? Will you save money on
> natural gas this way?
>
> My thinking is this: If you run it at 3.0 wc, while it may be burning
> less btu's, it will run longer to reach the stat set point, which
> would negate any savings you may have seen.
>
> In other words, i am assuming that greater water column equals greater
> btu's, which equals greater heat, and visa versa.
>
> Somehow, my brain is telling me, however, that this is not right as I
> have seen increased gas bills caused by having the wc set above 3.5.
>
> So which is it?
I figure that the manufacturers and their engineers 1) make a lot more $$$
than I do, 2) have a lot more insurance than I do and 3) have a lot more
education, training, and experience than I do. When they say to set for 3.5
WC for Nat Gas, then thats exactly where I am gonna set it for Nat Gas, and
also at their recommended manifold pressure for Propane after the conversion
kit has been installed.
Now run along and play
| |
| Al Moran 2005-10-30, 10:21 am |
| On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 08:06:07 -0600, "Noon-Air" <Noon-Air@comcast.net>
wrote:
>
>I figure that the manufacturers and their engineers 1) make a lot more $$$
>than I do, 2) have a lot more insurance than I do and 3) have a lot more
>education, training, and experience than I do. When they say to set for 3.5
>WC for Nat Gas, then thats exactly where I am gonna set it for Nat Gas, and
>also at their recommended manifold pressure for Propane after the conversion
>kit has been installed.
>Now run along and play
Ya think? Now fuck off.
| |
| Noon-Air 2005-10-30, 11:21 am |
|
"Al Moran" <AlMoran@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:i3l9m1t0or1b5g3lbpp3fgi0b933sv23rc@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 08:06:07 -0600, "Noon-Air" <Noon-Air@comcast.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Ya think? Now fuck off.
Flash.... Newbie asks a stupid question then gets pissy when he gets a
correct answer..... go figure.
Here's your sign.
| |
| Al Moran 2005-10-30, 11:21 am |
| On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 08:19:00 -0600, "Noon-Air" <Noon-Air@comcast.net>
wrote:
>
>"Al Moran" <AlMoran@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:i3l9m1t0or1b5g3lbpp3fgi0b933sv23rc@4ax.com...
>
>Flash.... Newbie asks a stupid question then gets pissy when he gets a
>correct answer..... go figure.
>
>Here's your sign.
Wrong, newbie gets pissy when assholes are, well, assholes. One more
XXXXXXX to add to the killfile.
| |
| Cooltemp Industries 2005-10-30, 11:21 am |
|
Al Moran wrote:
> Um, fyi, I happen to be a rookie hvac tech and was asking the question
> so 1. I know the answer, and 2. So I could avoid things like you
> described. Here's your sign, now run along.
There's no harm in being new, Al.
Unfortunately there are too many homeowners and trolls coming in here
asking questions, so your inquiry set off an alarm. Bubba's not such a
bad guy, are ya Bubba?
If you over-fire the burners, the flame can lift off the burners and
have difficulty maintaining ignition.
Also, as Bubba mentioned, the flame can impinge on the exchanger and
cause sooting. As well ,the increased products of combustion can cause
spillage and result in CO poisoning.
Also note that most, but not all, valves operate at 3.5 " w.c.
The polaris water heater operates at negative 2".w.c.
If you don't know , do what you did and ask!
It's better than one guy in here who pretends to know the answers, but
doesn't. And doesn't want to learn, either!
| |
| Bubba 2005-10-30, 11:21 am |
| On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 13:47:15 GMT, Al Moran <AlMoran@hotmail.com>
wrote:
>On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 13:36:14 GMT, Bubba <ReMoVe likealake@iname.com>
>wrote:
>
>
>
>
>Um, fyi, I happen to be a rookie hvac tech and was asking the question
>so 1. I know the answer, and 2. So I could avoid things like you
>described. Here's your sign, now run along.
FYI, you just THINK you're a tech. "Newbie" Yes, "Tech" Never.
and your still an XXXXXXX.
You're just mad because I havent forgotten you.
Now run along and I think I'll just keep that "sign".
You'll just have to find your own.
Bubba
| |
| TURTLE 2005-10-30, 11:21 am |
|
"Cooltemp Industries" <gbroderick@sunlife.com> wrote in message
news:4364DC50.4080508@sunlife.com...
>
>
> Al Moran wrote:
>
>
> There's no harm in being new, Al.
> Unfortunately there are too many homeowners and trolls coming in here asking
> questions, so your inquiry set off an alarm. Bubba's not such a bad guy, are
> ya Bubba?
> If you over-fire the burners, the flame can lift off the burners and have
> difficulty maintaining ignition.
> Also, as Bubba mentioned, the flame can impinge on the exchanger and cause
> sooting. As well ,the increased products of combustion can cause spillage and
> result in CO poisoning.
> Also note that most, but not all, valves operate at 3.5 " w.c.
> The polaris water heater operates at negative 2".w.c.
> If you don't know , do what you did and ask!
> It's better than one guy in here who pretends to know the answers, but
> doesn't. And doesn't want to learn, either!
>
This is Turtle.
You better stop talking about Paul like that or he will pull your PBSC Minion
Card ! You can be replaced and Al would work fine in your place.
TURTLE
| |
| Al Moran 2005-10-30, 11:21 am |
| On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 13:14:06 GMT, ..p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com
wrote:
> If you are set above the point where the furnace can operate
>efficiently ( correct air / fuel mix, and not overwhelming the heat ex
>capacity), then yes, you could increase the bill via more waste heat
>up the flue.
>
Thanks for a cogent answer Paul.
| |
| Al Moran 2005-10-30, 12:21 pm |
| On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 09:13:21 -0600, "TURTLE"
<turtle4aire@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>This is Turtle.
>
>You better stop talking about Paul like that or he will pull your PBSC Minion
>Card ! You can be replaced and Al would work fine in your place.
>
>TURTLE
Why don't you just crawl off and die somewhere? Seriously. Your
trolling/arguing in here is getting really sickening.
| |
| TURTLE 2005-10-30, 1:21 pm |
|
"Al Moran" <AlMoran@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:pbp9m15li4fh57jknthj3ids8dgbl932pk@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 09:13:21 -0600, "TURTLE"
> <turtle4aire@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Why don't you just crawl off and die somewhere? Seriously. Your
> trolling/arguing in here is getting really sickening.
This is Turtle.
Hummmmmm, the trolling and Flaming of the PBSC Club does not bother you ? OH, My
LORD, you are a good canidate for the PBSC club ! e-mail Paul and get you a
Application Now !
TURTLE
| |
| TURTLE 2005-10-30, 1:21 pm |
|
"Al Moran" <AlMoran@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:9so9m1153c3jv2j1kabl4jtv9l90ks7upb@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 13:14:06 GMT, ..p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com
> wrote:
>
>
>
> Thanks for a cogent answer Paul.
This is Turtle.
if Paul can guess at a answer like this and you think it is a cogent answer. You
are minion material and should apply soon to get the A in the PBSC Club and then
it can be the PBSCA club.
Al , You do know that the question you ask is nothing more that asking for a
guess with out direct research of that furnace you asking about due to all the
design differences and control types. You ask a question that even the
manufactors would have to think about & talk to their research department and
discuss with you and not a Soft ware salesman giving out guesses.
Now Re Read what Paul wrote above here and really see the guesses he gives out
is Cogent and not just guesses. He said if you put too much gas in the jet air /
gas mix it will cost you more to operate and maybe soot up. also what is too
much gas to the mix ? What is the Brand and the research run to tell you this
result ?
I will send Paul a Referrence for you to add to your resume.
TURTLE
| |
| Steve Scott 2005-10-30, 1:21 pm |
| The design may be at 3.5" but it may or may not run properly at 3.5".
We check new units to make sure the manifold is at 3.5" but then we
check the air free CO. If that's excessive we'll adjust the gas
pressure to bring the CO to a reasonable level.
On old equipment you need to start with something that's clean first.
Then we check the CO before we try adjusting the gas pressure.
In other words the gas pressure needs to be set at what supports
proper combustion. Most of the time, but not always, that's at design
pressure. We ALWAYS go for better combustion regardless of what the
pressure is.
With regards to your question you may see higher gas bills with higher
OR lower gas pressure if the combustion is out of whack or if you're
putting more btuh through the heat exchanger than the system is
designed for. I don't think you'll suffer efficiency if you put fewer
btuh through the heat exchanger but you may have other issues such as
excessive condensation.
On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 13:08:22 GMT, Al Moran <AlMoran@hotmail.com>
wrote:
>If you have a ng furnace and the water column is set at 3.5, you burn
>a certain amount of btu's per hour. What would happen, as far as btu
>usage, if you were to set the wc to 3.0? Will you save money on
>natural gas this way?
>
> My thinking is this: If you run it at 3.0 wc, while it may be burning
>less btu's, it will run longer to reach the stat set point, which
>would negate any savings you may have seen.
>
>In other words, i am assuming that greater water column equals greater
>btu's, which equals greater heat, and visa versa.
>
> Somehow, my brain is telling me, however, that this is not right as I
>have seen increased gas bills caused by having the wc set above 3.5.
>
>So which is it?
--
Useless Invention: Lie detectors for
politicians.
| |
| Al Moran 2005-10-30, 1:21 pm |
| On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 10:41:35 -0600, "TURTLE"
<turtle4aire@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
>I will send Paul a Referrence for you to add to your resume.
>
>TURTLE
Dumbass. Plonkedy plonkedy plonk.
| |
| TURTLE 2005-10-30, 1:21 pm |
|
"Al Moran" <AlMoran@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:9du9m1pkkmfsai45obki308upunl5ekmk6@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 10:41:35 -0600, "TURTLE"
> <turtle4aire@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Dumbass. Plonkedy plonkedy plonk.
This is Turtle.
Why Thank You there Son !
TURTLE
| |
|
| On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 09:44:32 -0500, Cooltemp Industries
<gbroderick@sunlife.com> wrote:
>
>
>Al Moran wrote:
>
>
>There's no harm in being new, Al.
>Unfortunately there are too many homeowners and trolls coming in here
>asking questions, so your inquiry set off an alarm. Bubba's not such a
>bad guy, are ya Bubba?
Nope, not usually. But I become a quick A-hole to those that come in
here and get pissy real quick.
>If you over-fire the burners, the flame can lift off the burners and
>have difficulty maintaining ignition.
>Also, as Bubba mentioned, the flame can impinge on the exchanger and
>cause sooting. As well ,the increased products of combustion can cause
>spillage and result in CO poisoning.
>Also note that most, but not all, valves operate at 3.5 " w.c.
>The polaris water heater operates at negative 2".w.c.
>If you don't know , do what you did and ask!
>It's better than one guy in here who pretends to know the answers, but
>doesn't. And doesn't want to learn, either!
>
>
| |
|
|
Bubba wrote:
> On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 09:44:32 -0500, Cooltemp Industries
> <gbroderick@sunlife.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Nope, not usually. But I become a quick A-hole to those that come in
> here and get pissy real quick.
Everyone gets pissy around here. It's a pissy sort of place, must be
contagious 
hvacrmedic
>
>
>
| |
|
| On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 13:08:22 GMT, Al Moran <AlMoran@hotmail.com>
wrote:
>If you have a ng furnace and the water column is set at 3.5, you burn
>a certain amount of btu's per hour.
I've never seen anybody set a water column. Where is it located on a
furnace?
> What would happen, as far as btu
>usage, if you were to set the wc to 3.0? Will you save money on
>natural gas this way?
Set it to 3.0 what? What is " 3.0"?
>
> My thinking is this: If you run it at 3.0 wc, while it may be burning
>less btu's, it will run longer to reach the stat set point, which
>would negate any savings you may have seen.
>
>In other words, i am assuming that greater water column equals greater
>btu's, which equals greater heat, and visa versa.
What is this "water column"?
>
> Somehow, my brain is telling me, however, that this is not right as I
>have seen increased gas bills caused by having the wc set above 3.5.
>
>So which is it?
....but then you wrote:
>Um, fyi, I happen to be a rookie hvac tech and was asking the question
>so 1. I know the answer, and 2. So I could avoid things like you
>described. Here's your sign, now run along.
What is the title of your HVAC study book? You obviously haven't
arrived at the combustion fundimentals chapter yet.
This is answered within the first few paragraphs of said chapters
in most all HVAC trade books.
>" Here's your sign, now run along"
WTF is this? Do you think "AlMoran" will ever get a true helpful
answer on alt.hvac ever again?
-zero
| |
| ..p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com 2005-10-30, 5:21 pm |
| On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 20:26:07 GMT, Bubba <ReMoVe likealake@iname.com>
wrote:
>On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 09:44:32 -0500, Cooltemp Industries
><gbroderick@sunlife.com> wrote:
>
>
>Nope, not usually. But I become a quick A-hole to those that come in
>here and get pissy real quick.
You woke up pissy, Bubba :-)
[color=darkred]
>
Click here every day to feed an animal that needs you today !!!
http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/
Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'
'With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.'
HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/
| |
| TURTLE 2005-10-30, 8:21 pm |
|
<..p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com> wrote in message
news:ckdam199m11f5t7n4800376ho2lo56reo0@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 20:26:07 GMT, Bubba <ReMoVe likealake@iname.com>
> wrote:
>
>
> You woke up pissy, Bubba :-)
>
This is Turtle.
Paul You was Born Pissy !
TURTLE
| |
| Cooltemp Industries 2005-10-30, 8:21 pm |
|
TURTLE wrote:
> You better stop talking about Paul like that or he will pull your PBSC Minion
> Card ! You can be replaced and Al would work fine in your place.
If I want any shit out of you, I'll squeeze your head.
| |
| Cooltemp Industries 2005-10-30, 8:21 pm |
|
Al Moran wrote:
> trolling/arguing in here is getting really sickening.
He thrives on it.
Kinda like a little kid who's always acting up, he figures any attention
is better than no attention at all, and he could never get recognition
for his work....positive recognition, that is...
| |
| TURTLE 2005-10-31, 2:21 am |
|
"Cooltemp Industries" <gbroderick@sunlife.com> wrote in message
news:43656330.3030404@sunlife.com...
>
>
> Al Moran wrote:
>
>
>
> He thrives on it.
> Kinda like a little kid who's always acting up, he figures any attention is
> better than no attention at all, and he could never get recognition for his
> work....positive recognition, that is...
>
This is Turtle.
Now Is that your final Answer ? You have change it 3 times before !
TURTLE
| |
| TURTLE 2005-10-31, 2:21 am |
|
"Al Moran" <AlMoran@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:5nm9m11k682hn4okefvhqni69sooh29pkc@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 08:19:00 -0600, "Noon-Air" <Noon-Air@comcast.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> Wrong, newbie gets pissy when assholes are, well, assholes. One more
> XXXXXXX to add to the killfile.
this is Turtle
i'm glad to see you come into the newsgroup and start telling about who is
assholes and who you like or dislike. I may have to start calling you Little
Paul !
i sure hope your job feeling don't get mixed up with your newsgroup feeling for
you will not be working for your enployer very long !
Now What do you think of me ? Now don't go back and read Paul Notes on this !
TURTLE
| |
| Power's Mechanical 2005-10-31, 10:21 pm |
| If you have a ng furnace and the water column is set at 3.5, you burn
a certain amount of btu's per hour. What would happen, as far as btu
usage, if you were to set the wc to 3.0? Will you save money on
natural gas this way?
xxxx
Al, reducing the output pressure (or under-firing) will result in the
excess air incresing and a lower flame temp.
You will also lean towards incomplete combustion and more co output.
If you can reduce the amount of excess air as you lower the output
pressure then yea you will save a few bucks.
|
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