Heating and air conditioning - Installed old heat pump in my house

Author

Installed old heat pump in my house

Murdentech

2006-02-12, 2:21 am

I replaced a 16 year old 2.5 ton Carrier heat pump system for a customer
last month with a 13 SEER Goodman. Just bought my house in December with a
boiler... thought I would like having hot water heat again, until I got a
$720.00 gas bill for December... Ouch!

Went ahead and pulled the electric heat out of the old air handler, cleaned
it all up and put it together. Been running fine. I've been guaging the amp
draw, pressures and Delta T thru the air handler. Average temperature has
been in the mid 20's to mid 40's. I shut it down when the OAT is below 25º
until I gather more info on the cost of operation and actual cost
effectiveness of using it as auxiliary heat.

I haven't run any ductwork, just letting it heat the basement of this old
house... keeps the floors on the 1st floor nice and warm if it runs long
enough. Actually helps quite a bit on mild days.

On average I am getting a 10º to 12º TD and pulling a pretty steady 10.8
amps at 235 volts. (2538 watts)
Strangely enough, I am only getting about a 5º TD across the outdoor unit.

Am I correct that actual BTU output is TD x CFM x 1.08 ?

If so, doesn't seem like I am getting more than 10 to 12k btus out of the
unit.

Please discuss. This is something I did as much for a test as much as
anything. There is so much argument about the effectiveness and/or
efficiency of heat pumps I thought it wouldn't hurt to bench test this old
Carrier and see what's really up.

Besides, I figure it costs about 16 cents an hour for 10k btu, still cheaper
than gas at our local rates.

We are paying 6.8 cents per kw of electric and close to 1.48 per therm for
natural gas.

Jeff Murden

Bubba

2006-02-12, 12:21 pm

On Sun, 12 Feb 2006 05:33:42 GMT, "Murdentech" <j. murden @ insight
bb.com> wrote:

>I replaced a 16 year old 2.5 ton Carrier heat pump system for a customer
>last month with a 13 SEER Goodman. Just bought my house in December with a
>boiler... thought I would like having hot water heat again, until I got a
>$720.00 gas bill for December... Ouch!
>
>Went ahead and pulled the electric heat out of the old air handler, cleaned
>it all up and put it together. Been running fine. I've been guaging the amp
>draw, pressures and Delta T thru the air handler. Average temperature has
>been in the mid 20's to mid 40's. I shut it down when the OAT is below 25º
>until I gather more info on the cost of operation and actual cost
>effectiveness of using it as auxiliary heat.
>
>I haven't run any ductwork, just letting it heat the basement of this old
>house... keeps the floors on the 1st floor nice and warm if it runs long
>enough. Actually helps quite a bit on mild days.
>
>On average I am getting a 10º to 12º TD and pulling a pretty steady 10.8
>amps at 235 volts. (2538 watts)
>Strangely enough, I am only getting about a 5º TD across the outdoor unit.
>
>Am I correct that actual BTU output is TD x CFM x 1.08 ?
>
>If so, doesn't seem like I am getting more than 10 to 12k btus out of the
>unit.
>
>Please discuss. This is something I did as much for a test as much as
>anything. There is so much argument about the effectiveness and/or
>efficiency of heat pumps I thought it wouldn't hurt to bench test this old
>Carrier and see what's really up.
>
>Besides, I figure it costs about 16 cents an hour for 10k btu, still cheaper
>than gas at our local rates.
>
>We are paying 6.8 cents per kw of electric and close to 1.48 per therm for
>natural gas.
>
>
>Jeff Murden
>
>
At 20 degrees outside, Im getting a 20 degree temp rise through my
system...................just like the charts tell me I should.
Goodman stuff is ok. It works and thats about it. As for the heat
pump, I'll never use theirs. I have one now, installed in
Aug last year. 13 Seer 4 ton. Customer is related to the Johnstone
owner. Starting in Nov, it started eating defrost boards each month.
Figured out that problem just as the rev valve locked up! I use a
micron gauge and installed a bi-flo and it still tossed the rev valve.
Junk man, thats why the stuff is cheap. If you are in for that, its
ok. Choose your poison.
Bubba

Murdentech

2006-02-12, 3:21 pm

"Bubba >" <<ReMoVe likealake@iname.com> wrote in message
news:jsmuu1tensauhhsi7lhkql861ppiuteo3j@4ax.com...

> At 20 degrees outside, Im getting a 20 degree temp rise through my
> system...................just like the charts tell me I should.

I think I may have a problem with the compressor valves, pressures are too
low. (125 to 135 psi at around 28º OAT). Evacuated and weighed in the
charge, but not happy with the performance. Like I said before, this is a
free system that seemed to work okay, the electric heat was shorted, but I
have no need for it. I can afford to play with it, but wouldn't (and didn't)
recommend a paying customer put money into it.

> Goodman stuff is ok. It works and thats about it. As for the heat
> pump, I'll never use theirs. I have one now, installed in
> Aug last year. 13 Seer 4 ton. Customer is related to the Johnstone
> owner. Starting in Nov, it started eating defrost boards each month.
> Figured out that problem just as the rev valve locked up! I use a
> micron gauge and installed a bi-flo and it still tossed the rev valve.
> Junk man, thats why the stuff is cheap. If you are in for that, its
> ok. Choose your poison.
> Bubba

Will watch out for that being a problem, have installed two 13 SEER heat
pumps this year and four last year, haven't had any problems with the board
or RVs. I like the lifetime compressor warranty but I hate the cheap
condenser fan blades... kinda flimsy.

Otherwise, have actually had fewer problems with Goodman condensers overall
than the others.... used to be I would cringe at installing a Janijunk
furnace, but I am impressed with Goodman's redesigned model and have put
several in with no problems at all.

Biggest problem I've had is with the damn supply houses not stocking
equipment. Johnstone is higher than Lute but still doesn't know how to stock
a supply house... having only two dealers in town sucks as well.

Jeff

Zyp

2006-02-13, 4:21 am

Just think, with a LIFETIME WARRANTY you'll never have to sell 'em a new
one... ;) Or sell 'em any parts neither.. .... ....

Heat Pumps when running in Heating Mode tend to run like a medium
temperature refrigeration unit. Generally the outdoor saturation
temperature [refrigerant pressure] is 25 degrees below the ambient. When
the outdoor ambient is 20 degrees, Heat Pumps generally have less COP
[Coefficient of Operation] and tend to not keep up with the structure load
[heating requirement.] At that low of an outdoor ambient, auxiliary heat is
generally needed.

Zyp

"Murdentech" <j. murden @ insight bb.com> wrote in message
news:YJLHf.794817$xm3.247159@attbi_s21...
>
> "Bubba >" <<ReMoVe likealake@iname.com> wrote in message
> news:jsmuu1tensauhhsi7lhkql861ppiuteo3j@4ax.com...
>
>
>
>
> I think I may have a problem with the compressor valves, pressures are too
> low. (125 to 135 psi at around 28º OAT). Evacuated and weighed in the
> charge, but not happy with the performance. Like I said before, this is a
> free system that seemed to work okay, the electric heat was shorted, but I
> have no need for it. I can afford to play with it, but wouldn't (and
> didn't) recommend a paying customer put money into it.
>
>
> Will watch out for that being a problem, have installed two 13 SEER heat
> pumps this year and four last year, haven't had any problems with the
> board or RVs. I like the lifetime compressor warranty but I hate the cheap
> condenser fan blades... kinda flimsy.
>
> Otherwise, have actually had fewer problems with Goodman condensers
> overall than the others.... used to be I would cringe at installing a
> Janijunk furnace, but I am impressed with Goodman's redesigned model and
> have put several in with no problems at all.
>
> Biggest problem I've had is with the damn supply houses not stocking
> equipment. Johnstone is higher than Lute but still doesn't know how to
> stock a supply house... having only two dealers in town sucks as well.
>
> Jeff
>
>

PrecisionMechanical

2006-02-13, 2:21 pm

"Murdentech" <j. murden @ insight bb.com> wrote in message
news:WMzHf.792982$xm3.157374@attbi_s21...
> I replaced a 16 year old 2.5 ton Carrier heat pump system for a customer
> last month with a 13 SEER Goodman. Just bought my house in December with
a
> boiler... thought I would like having hot water heat again, until I got a
> $720.00 gas bill for December... Ouch!
>
> Went ahead and pulled the electric heat out of the old air handler,
cleaned
> it all up and put it together. Been running fine. I've been guaging the
amp
> draw, pressures and Delta T thru the air handler. Average temperature has
> been in the mid 20's to mid 40's. I shut it down when the OAT is below 25º
> until I gather more info on the cost of operation and actual cost
> effectiveness of using it as auxiliary heat.
>

Delta t at ahu is meaningless unless you know actual cfm.

>
> I haven't run any ductwork, just letting it heat the basement of this old
> house... keeps the floors on the 1st floor nice and warm if it runs long
> enough. Actually helps quite a bit on mild days.
>

How did you determine final charge ???

>
> On average I am getting a 10º to 12º TD and pulling a pretty steady 10.8
> amps at 235 volts. (2538 watts)
> Strangely enough, I am only getting about a 5º TD across the outdoor unit.
>
> Am I correct that actual BTU output is TD x CFM x 1.08 ?
>
> If so, doesn't seem like I am getting more than 10 to 12k btus out of the
> unit.
>

See page 13 of the .pdf :

http://www.luxaire.com/PDFFiles/036...-002-A-0104.pdf

>
> Please discuss. This is something I did as much for a test as much as
> anything. There is so much argument about the effectiveness and/or
> efficiency of heat pumps I thought it wouldn't hurt to bench test this old
> Carrier and see what's really up.
>

I just picked up 3 surplus water source units at $10 each.....appear to be
~2 tons each--probly from a server room...all appear to be functional,
further testing is slated for this week...4 additional units may be
available.

>
> Besides, I figure it costs about 16 cents an hour for 10k btu, still
cheaper
> than gas at our local rates.
>
> We are paying 6.8 cents per kw of electric and close to 1.48 per therm for
> natural gas.
>

Do the numbers--add a second heat pump if indicated.

--

SVL

Power's Mechanical

2006-02-13, 6:21 pm

Delta t at ahu is meaningless unless you know actual cfm.

xxxx

You can use the Delta t to find the CFM dipshit.

PrecisionMechanicaL

2006-02-13, 6:21 pm

"Power's Mechanical" <pusher100@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1139866828.542503.267270@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> Delta t at ahu is meaningless unless you know actual cfm.
>
>
> xxxx
>
> You can use the Delta t to find the CFM dipshit.
>

Not by using just Delta T alone, fuckwad........

--

SVL

Murdentech

2006-02-14, 9:21 am

That powerful precision .... LOL

It is a 2.5 ton AHU on low speed with no ductwork, but you are correct,
difficult to determine actually CFM with no calculable static resistance.

This is just a bench project at this point. The boiler is running fine as
primary heat, just need to figure a better long term strategy.

As for the former question, the charge was weighed in according to the unit
name plate. 20' lineset. Biggest problem is getting head pressure up to
unit's chart requirement of 144 to 153. Also, the old carriers don't have a
suction port for heating mode (but the chart does give a low pressure
column).

If I worked as many hours or charged as much as some of you guys, I would
have enough money to either pay outrageous gas bills, or put in two new dual
fuel systems and eliminate the boiler all together. Right now there are
other fish to fry.

Jeff Murden

"PrecisionMechanicaL" <precisionmachinist@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:oJudnQkFVPICnWzeRVn-rA@scnresearch.com...
>
> "Power's Mechanical" <pusher100@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1139866828.542503.267270@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>
> Not by using just Delta T alone, fuckwad........
>
> --
>
> SVL
>
>
>

PrecisionMechanical

2006-02-14, 3:21 pm

"Murdentech" <j. murden @ insight bb.com> wrote in message
news:ZrkIf.775337$_o.66962@attbi_s71...

>
> That powerful precision .... LOL
>

His latest obsession is all I suspect.

Jump Mikey, jump...

>
> It is a 2.5 ton AHU on low speed with no ductwork, but you are correct,
> difficult to determine actually CFM with no calculable static resistance.
>
> This is just a bench project at this point. The boiler is running fine as
> primary heat, just need to figure a better long term strategy.
>
> As for the former question, the charge was weighed in according to the
unit
> name plate. 20' lineset. Biggest problem is getting head pressure up to
> unit's chart requirement of 144 to 153. Also, the old carriers don't have
a
> suction port for heating mode (but the chart does give a low pressure
> column).
>

Not familiar with Carrier...but suggest look in the ahu--recalling some
units have a second port inside there.

>
> If I worked as many hours or charged as much as some of you guys, I would
> have enough money to either pay outrageous gas bills, or put in two new
dual
> fuel systems and eliminate the boiler all together. Right now there are
> other fish to fry.
>

As for me, I don't work in hvac.

--

SVL

ftwhd

2006-02-14, 6:21 pm

On Tue, 14 Feb 2006 10:37:01 -0800, "PrecisionMechanical"
<precisionmachinist@hotmail.com> wrote:

>
>As for me, I don't work in hvac.

Thats painfully obvious.

ftwhd

2006-02-14, 6:21 pm

On Mon, 13 Feb 2006 13:50:20 -0800, "PrecisionMechanicaL"
<precisionmachinist@hotmail.com> wrote:

>
>"Power's Mechanical" <pusher100@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:1139866828.542503.267270@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>
>Not by using just Delta T alone, fuckwad........

I didnt say use just the delta t. It would be used as part of a
formula to find cfm. Not exactly meaningless as you claimed.
Not that I would expect a poser like yourself to know. Go grind
something and quit pretending to know something about hvac.

lp13-30

2006-02-14, 7:21 pm

I do not recall ever seeing a heat pump that did not have a true suction
port somewhere. Without one you are only guessing at the system's
performance. If it did not have one, it woud have been easy enough to
install one before hooking it up. Even now, you can put it into cool
mode, pump it down and install one. Then you can get a better idea of
exactly what the unit is or is not doing. Larry

CAVHBC

2006-02-14, 8:21 pm

"ftwhd" <ftwhd@home.com> wrote in message
news:v6i4v1ldqtovtvbmkjql4gfkkim1fvnbr0@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 14 Feb 2006 10:37:01 -0800, "PrecisionMechanical"
> <precisionmachinist@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Thats painfully obvious.

And Mike..we all know the only part of the HVAC you know is the V...for
ventilation of the stewards shorts.

.p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com

2006-02-14, 8:21 pm

On Tue, 14 Feb 2006 18:24:42 -0500, "CAVHBC" <biteme@fuckoff.com>
wrote:

>
>"ftwhd" <ftwhd@home.com> wrote in message
>news:v6i4v1ldqtovtvbmkjql4gfkkim1fvnbr0@4ax.com...
>
>And Mike..we all know the only part of the HVAC you know is the V...for
>ventilation of the stewards shorts.
>

He knows the H, too - as in 'Ho'.

--

Click here every day to feed an animal that needs you today !!!

http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/

Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'
'With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.'
HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/

PrecisionMechanical

2006-02-15, 5:21 am

"ftwhd" <ftwhd@home.com> wrote in message
news:29i4v1lu6a3lk1j7ofs16kibjb9i2utdc7@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 13 Feb 2006 13:50:20 -0800, "PrecisionMechanicaL"
> <precisionmachinist@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> I didnt say use just the delta t.

Appears to be your implication....

> It would be used as part of a
> formula to find cfm. Not exactly meaningless as you claimed.

Suggest link to the 'formula' then...and remember, it was calculating the
actual btuh output the OP was looking to accomplish....

What are the pressures and what refrigerant is it ???

--Notably, no data has been provided so far as to accurately ascertain the
mass flow rate of either medium.....

> Not that I would expect a poser like yourself to know.

I for one couldn't care much less about *your* 'expectations' concerning
me....and suspect my position is the same as that of the vast majority of
the others here...

....ALSO...

( Obviously ), something about my statement "as for me, I don't work in
hvac" must be totally incomprehensible to your fucking widdle pea-brain...

> Go grind
> something and quit pretending to know something about hvac.

Only the truly stupid goes through life believing that he knows more than
almost everyone else--but even as eccentric as you might appear, I'm fairly
certain an idiot you're not.

( Then again, I've been wrong before )......

<G>

--

SVL

PrecisionMechanical

2006-02-15, 5:21 am

"ftwhd" <ftwhd@home.com> wrote in message
news:v6i4v1ldqtovtvbmkjql4gfkkim1fvnbr0@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 14 Feb 2006 10:37:01 -0800, "PrecisionMechanical"
> <precisionmachinist@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Thats painfully obvious.

Still, I feel compelled to state it several more times....just in case some
dumfuck union flunkie has some kinda trouble with grasping the entire
concept...

As for me, I don't work in hvac

As for me, I don't work in hvac

As for me, I don't work in hvac

--

SVL

PrecisionMechanical

2006-02-15, 6:21 am

"ftwhd" <ftwhd@home.com> wrote in message
news:v6i4v1ldqtovtvbmkjql4gfkkim1fvnbr0@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 14 Feb 2006 10:37:01 -0800, "PrecisionMechanical"
> <precisionmachinist@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Thats painfully obvious.

Well, I jumpered three of those heat pumps to the vfd in one of our machine
tools, ( only convenient source I have presently to source 460 / 3 onsite )

All appear to be working fine so far.....delta T and mass flow across the
source exchanger is spot-on to the ratings...2-1/2 and 5 ton tecumseh
units...30 tons altogether...

Next, I'm needing to run an inveter buss to power them all up, ( that's no
prob)...but left wondering about glycol mix and defrosting of that big
fucking unit that goes up on the rooftop....

Any advice ???

--FWIW, I can get either the yellow or the green stuff from the local
wrecking yard for really cheap.....yellow costing only a tad bit more...

--

SVL

PrecisionMechanical

2006-02-15, 8:21 am

Murdentech

2006-02-15, 10:21 am

"lp13-30" <LP1330@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:22106-43F253B5-552@storefull-3153.bay.webtv.net...
>I do not recall ever seeing a heat pump that did not have a true suction
> port somewhere. Without one you are only guessing at the system's
> performance. If it did not have one, it woud have been easy enough to
> install one before hooking it up. Even now, you can put it into cool
> mode, pump it down and install one. Then you can get a better idea of
> exactly what the unit is or is not doing. Larry
>

Very true Larry, however, this unit simply doesn't have one.... 1988 Carrier
48XX024300 pump with a xxx030xxx ahu. Will have to evacuate unit to install
auxiliary port. Has to be put somewhere between RV, accumulator and
compressor.... Can't just pump a unit down to work on the condenser... but
you knew that now didn't you?

May do this time and weather permitting. Probably will just end up putting
in a new system and forget the tired old unit. Every hour I spend on the old
dog could be a billable hour somewhere.... or the good ole couch time.

The problem is looking toward a bad (stuck) outdoor piston or worn out RV.
Compressor seems healthy, but still 18 years old.

lp13-30

2006-02-15, 1:21 pm

Jeff, no I did not know that you could not pump a unit down and work on
he suction line inside the condensing unit-- mainly because I have done
it dozens of times. I will grant you that the compressor valves must be
good to do so, and of course in the case of a heat pump, the reversisng
valve cannot leak by at all, and the valve must stay in the cool
position. Just shut the liquid line valve, run the unit till the
pressure on both valves goes to zero, and see if it holds. If it does
you are set to go. The pressure may rise slightly after you shut the
compressor off, from some cold liquid still in the line warming up and
boiling off. Let it sit for a minute, then run it for a few seconds more
to pump down the rest of the vapor. However, if you do try to restart a
compressor with the unit pumped down, it must have a start kit, if it a
single phase recip.. Larry

ftwhd

2006-02-15, 8:21 pm

On Wed, 15 Feb 2006 01:37:22 -0800, "PrecisionMechanical"
<precisionmachinist@hotmail.com> wrote:

>
>"ftwhd" <ftwhd@home.com> wrote in message
>news:v6i4v1ldqtovtvbmkjql4gfkkim1fvnbr0@4ax.com...
>
>Well, I jumpered three of those heat pumps to the vfd in one of our machine
>tools, ( only convenient source I have presently to source 460 / 3 onsite )
>
>All appear to be working fine so far.....delta T and mass flow across the
>source exchanger is spot-on to the ratings...2-1/2 and 5 ton tecumseh
>units...30 tons altogether...
>
>Next, I'm needing to run an inveter buss to power them all up, ( that's no
>prob)...but left wondering about glycol mix and defrosting of that big
>fucking unit that goes up on the rooftop....
>
>Any advice ???
>
>--FWIW, I can get either the yellow or the green stuff from the local
>wrecking yard for really cheap.....yellow costing only a tad bit more...

Nice troll. I especially like the part about the yellow or green
stuff. They dont have pink or blue? LOL

One thing Id like to see on the market. A field test kit to see what
kind of glycol is in a system. Take a sample add some kind of
chemical and if it turns this color its P/P and if it turns that color
its E/G. Or something to that effect.

Color dont mean squat and there are significant differences between
P/P and E/G. I suggest you go and read some glycol MSDS sheets from
Dow Chemical or Inter-therm before you create some kind of "industrial
accident waiting to happen" that you cant afford to clean up.

ftwhd

2006-02-15, 9:21 pm

On Wed, 15 Feb 2006 00:49:45 -0800, "PrecisionMechanical"
<precisionmachinist@hotmail.com> wrote:

>
>"ftwhd" <ftwhd@home.com> wrote in message
>news:29i4v1lu6a3lk1j7ofs16kibjb9i2utdc7@4ax.com...
>
>Appears to be your implication....
>
Sorry you didnt know enough and
>
>Suggest link to the 'formula' then...and remember, it was calculating the
>actual btuh output the OP was looking to accomplish....
>
Ive posted them all at one time or another, look it up.
Ive even posted the correct constants for various altitudes. If you
want a link, get a text book on HVAC, read it and make a link from
book to brain.

>What are the pressures and what refrigerant is it ???
>
Who gives a shit, All your trying to do is figure out how many btus
or cfms are going across a HX. Thats all. If the figures jive with
what is expected then alls well. If not then you go from there.

>--Notably, no data has been provided so far as to accurately ascertain the
>mass flow rate of either medium.....

Data in its self does not necessarily equate to accuracy. You need to
know how to collect the data. Then you need to know what to do with
said data.

>
>
>I for one couldn't care much less about *your* 'expectations' concerning
>me....and suspect my position is the same as that of the vast majority of
>the others here...
>
>...XXXXXXX

Yeah I can tell.

ftwhd

2006-02-15, 9:21 pm

On Wed, 15 Feb 2006 03:50:33 -0800, "PrecisionMechanical"
<precisionmachinist@hotmail.com> wrote:

>
>"ftwhd" <ftwhd@home.com> wrote in message
>news:29i4v1lu6a3lk1j7ofs16kibjb9i2utdc7@4ax.com...
>
>Give up that fuckin dead end union job--gf it alone, your better than that,
>man--and we both know it...
>
>Its a big fucking tunnel--with a light at the end...screening Mikey's life
>inna nutshell...I don't know exactly how to say this shit....but your better
>than that, I know you are.
>
>Give it up, man--like...just like so many others just like me an you did
>sucessfully.....only workin for fun these days.....and making 5xx the
>cash...working part-time certainly helps...

Hmm it took you from 3:49am to 6:50am to think that up?

Are your a "Midnight Grinder" with 10 min coffee breaks every three
hours or a jackass insomniac who cant sleep?

PrecisionMechanicaL

2006-02-15, 10:21 pm

"ftwhd" <ftwhd@home.com> wrote in message
news:bmi7v1dglkcnnd8mio9edml2u8e45csl22@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 15 Feb 2006 03:50:33 -0800, "PrecisionMechanical"
> <precisionmachinist@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
that,[color=darkred]
life[color=darkred]
better[color=darkred]
>
> Hmm it took you from 3:49am to 6:50am to think that up?
>
> Are your a "Midnight Grinder" with 10 min coffee breaks every three
> hours or a jackass insomniac who cant sleep?
>
>

3 hours beer drinking after working swing shift at a local manufacturing
plant....had hired in on the 3rd of Jan.

Walked off the job today..wasn't having enough fun--and besides, it was
taking too much time away from my own business.

--

SVL

PrecisionMechanicaL

2006-02-15, 10:21 pm

"ftwhd" <ftwhd@home.com> wrote in message
news:elg7v1phbsguuhrvdsau1jvcg9764qg16t@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 15 Feb 2006 00:49:45 -0800, "PrecisionMechanical"
> <precisionmachinist@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
[color=darkred]
>...XXXXXXX

Why, thank you very much !!!

--

SVL

Jake

2006-02-15, 11:21 pm

PrecisionMechanical wrote:
> "ftwhd" <ftwhd@home.com> wrote in message
> news:v6i4v1ldqtovtvbmkjql4gfkkim1fvnbr0@4ax.com...
>
>
>
> Well, I jumpered three of those heat pumps to the vfd in one of our machine
> tools, ( only convenient source I have presently to source 460 / 3 onsite )
>
> All appear to be working fine so far.....delta T and mass flow across the
> source exchanger is spot-on to the ratings...2-1/2 and 5 ton tecumseh
> units...30 tons altogether...
>
> Next, I'm needing to run an inveter buss to power them all up, ( that's no
> prob)...but left wondering about glycol mix and defrosting of that big
> fucking unit that goes up on the rooftop....
>
> Any advice ???
>
> --FWIW, I can get either the yellow or the green stuff from the local
> wrecking yard for really cheap.....yellow costing only a tad bit more...
>
> --
>
> SVL

P/P is the way to go for inverters. 50/50 and make sure your water is D/I'd.

All copper too.

Check and re-check your grounding. There are also commercial GLD's
(ground leak detectors) available for BIG inverters.

Suggest (depending on heat load) you seperate the loops and do a plate
exchanger indoors.

Just my experience... which is a lot.

Jake

PrecisionMechanical

2006-02-16, 12:21 am

"ftwhd" <ftwhd@home.com> wrote in message
news:eig7v11pa8t9vm17m0vrkqk72u1kfi0bdf@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 15 Feb 2006 01:37:22 -0800, "PrecisionMechanical"
> <precisionmachinist@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Nice troll. I especially like the part about the yellow or green
> stuff. They dont have pink or blue? LOL
>

Why thank you !!!

>
> One thing Id like to see on the market. A field test kit to see what
> kind of glycol is in a system. Take a sample add some kind of
> chemical and if it turns this color its P/P and if it turns that color
> its E/G. Or something to that effect.
>

I'm surprised something like that isnt already ( apparently )on the
market--enough so that I googled a bit...came up all blanks...

>
> Color dont mean squat and there are significant differences between
> P/P and E/G. I suggest you go and read some glycol MSDS sheets from
> Dow Chemical or Inter-therm before you create some kind of "industrial
> accident waiting to happen" that you cant afford to clean up.
>

Using Dowfrost in the spindle chillers, terribly expensive though--( even
given that the capacity is only a few gallons ).....if need be, I'll likely
change over to an inhibited P/P...automotive..

--

SVL

.p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com

2006-02-16, 1:21 am

On Wed, 15 Feb 2006 20:11:10 -0800, "PrecisionMechanical"
<precisionmachinist@hotmail.com> wrote:

>
>"ftwhd" <ftwhd@home.com> wrote in message
>news:eig7v11pa8t9vm17m0vrkqk72u1kfi0bdf@4ax.com...
>
>Why thank you !!!
>
>
>I'm surprised something like that isnt already ( apparently )on the
>market--enough so that I googled a bit...came up all blanks...
>
>
>Using Dowfrost in the spindle chillers, terribly expensive though--( even
>given that the capacity is only a few gallons ).....if need be, I'll likely
>change over to an inhibited P/P.....

At your age, that's not far off anyway ....

--

Click here every day to feed an animal that needs you today !!!

http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/

Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'
'With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.'
HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/

PrecisionMechanical

2006-02-16, 1:21 am

<.p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com> wrote in message
news:ekv7v1t2m3ltv5pukaltnic5fauks7p68q@4ax.com...

>
>
> At your age, that's not far off anyway ....
>

Probly I'll never know unless I'm standing onna mirror...

===

For the record, turned 48 just last saturday.

--

SVL

Murdentech

2006-02-16, 10:21 am

"lp13-30" <LP1330@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:21929-43F35B43-706@storefull-3151.bay.webtv.net...
> Jeff, no I did not know that you could not pump a unit down and work on
> he suction line inside the condensing unit-- mainly because I have done
> it dozens of times. I will grant you that the compressor valves must be
> good to do so, and of course in the case of a heat pump, the reversisng
> valve cannot leak by at all, and the valve must stay in the cool
> position. Just shut the liquid line valve, run the unit till the
> pressure on both valves goes to zero, and see if it holds. If it does
> you are set to go. The pressure may rise slightly after you shut the
> compressor off, from some cold liquid still in the line warming up and
> boiling off. Let it sit for a minute, then run it for a few seconds more
> to pump down the rest of the vapor. However, if you do try to restart a
> compressor with the unit pumped down, it must have a start kit, if it a
> single phase recip.. Larry
>

Yikes Larry !! I just don't trust those valves with all the liquid pressure
behind it and me brazing around the thing. I can imagine the poof if
something goes bad.

The thought of being burned and frozen at the same time does not appeal.

Though you are technically correct...

Jeff

ftwhd

2006-02-16, 11:21 pm

On Wed, 15 Feb 2006 20:11:10 -0800, "PrecisionMechanical"
<precisionmachinist@hotmail.com> wrote:

>
>"ftwhd" <ftwhd@home.com> wrote in message
>news:eig7v11pa8t9vm17m0vrkqk72u1kfi0bdf@4ax.com...
>
>Why thank you !!!
>
>
>I'm surprised something like that isnt already ( apparently )on the
>market--enough so that I googled a bit...came up all blanks...
>
>
>Using Dowfrost in the spindle chillers, terribly expensive though--( even
>given that the capacity is only a few gallons ).....if need be, I'll likely
>change over to an inhibited P/P...automotive..

Is more glycol spilled from the grinder or is it burned off in the
process of cooling the grindie? Post some pics of this thing.

You should make sure automotive shit is compatible with your pump
seals.

ftwhd

2006-02-16, 11:21 pm

On Wed, 15 Feb 2006 18:05:05 -0800, "PrecisionMechanicaL"
<precisionmachinist@hotmail.com> wrote:

>
>"ftwhd" <ftwhd@home.com> wrote in message
>news:bmi7v1dglkcnnd8mio9edml2u8e45csl22@4ax.com...
>that,
>life
>better
>
>3 hours beer drinking after working swing shift at a local manufacturing
>plant....had hired in on the 3rd of Jan.
>
>Walked off the job today..wasn't having enough fun--and besides, it was
>taking too much time away from my own business.

OIC, Then your rant was geared more towards talking yourself you did
the right thing quitting your part time job. I thought the whole
premise was fucked up and out of left field. lol Of course i have no
way of knowing if it will work out for you or not. Best of luck. Im
am really happy for you that you can afford to work less and still
live well. Its a shame more cant. Welcome to the :got it made: club.

Oscar_Lives

2006-02-16, 11:21 pm

"ftwhd" <ftwhd@home.com> wrote in message
news:boeav1tdg2rtjsdg2bde4gpcllp10v7tvq@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 15 Feb 2006 18:05:05 -0800, "PrecisionMechanicaL"
> <precisionmachinist@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> OIC, Then your rant was geared more towards talking yourself you did
> the right thing quitting your part time job. I thought the whole
> premise was fucked up and out of left field. lol Of course i have no
> way of knowing if it will work out for you or not. Best of luck. Im
> am really happy for you that you can afford to work less and still
> live well. Its a shame more cant. Welcome to the :got it made: club.
>

Too bad the democrats want everyone in the country to be a government leach,
unable to pull themselves up by their bootstraps to become successful and
independent...

PrecisionMechanical

2006-02-17, 2:21 am

"ftwhd" <ftwhd@home.com> wrote in message
news:boeav1tdg2rtjsdg2bde4gpcllp10v7tvq@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 15 Feb 2006 18:05:05 -0800, "PrecisionMechanicaL"
> <precisionmachinist@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
did[color=darkred]
>
> OIC, Then your rant was geared more towards talking yourself you did
> the right thing quitting your part time job. I thought the whole
> premise was fucked up and out of left field. lol Of course i have no
> way of knowing if it will work out for you or not. Best of luck. Im
> am really happy for you that you can afford to work less and still
> live well. Its a shame more cant. Welcome to the :got it made: club.
>

Pretty close....just that I hadn't quit yet was all...I've been independant
since ~1997....

Decided to give the place a shot--they said they needed folks with my "level
of skill and expertise"....in trouble with work scheduling, yada yada--All
but begged me to come work with them....I bit the line, ( hook and
sinker )--( being the nice guy that I am, I decided to tryna help em out ),
knowing full well in advance it would result in a slightly negative cash
flow for me...

Over time became clear that all they wanted was a warm body, one that would
take orders without question....buncha sheeple there is all...and so then
yesterday, I get called into the office and get some weird lame-assed
bullshit speel shoved down my throat by the shop manager about their
"expectations"...(odd thing was, no indication whether I was falling short,
on target, exceeding these "expectations" whatsoever...left the meeting
rather confused, in fact...

(Lookin for a whipping boy maybe, dunno )--actually, I'm still clueless...

Well, I just calmly rolled my toolbox over next to the bay door, got ahold
of the lead and told him "toolbox check, I'm takin a hike"...

Sadly, I also had my own set of expectations, and management there had
fallen woefully short.

--

SVL

PrecisionMechanical

2006-02-17, 3:21 am

"ftwhd" <ftwhd@home.com> wrote in message
news:51eav119nmf2ol56g70paes1vh6o1gv71k@4ax.com...
likely[color=darkred]
>
> Is more glycol spilled from the grinder or is it burned off in the
> process of cooling the grindie? Post some pics of this thing.
>

No, this is a refrigerated closed loop system--probly 1/4 ton compressor or
so....really not very big...keeps the bearings temp stable--eight gallons
perhaps of glycol mix circulates within the milling spindle housing in order
to limit /control rather minute amounts of thermal expansion.

--NOT to be confused with "coolant"...which is typically a water / oil mix
else some synthetic ( usually triethanolamine )--in either case, "coolant"
is what cools and lubricates at the workpiece /tool interface...(more
properly called "cutting fluid" ).....drains back into an open recirculating
sump, chipmaking machinery will have typically have screens to keep metal
shavings from fouling the pump impellor, while with grinding processes there
will often be magnetic filtration in place due to the volume and small size
of the particulates...

>
> You should make sure automotive shit is compatible with your pump
> seals.
>

Yeah, I should...the pump OEM name is probly on the unit...

Might link to a picture of the entire chiller later if I get a chance--the
manufacturer's name escapes me at the moment.

===

Fucking Arctic front moving in, temps dropping fast--mid to low teens
soon....finished putting the 3-1/2 ton wshp back online just a couple
minutes ago--5 ton air source unit simply can't keep up with that kinda OA.

--

SVL

ftwhd

2006-02-17, 6:21 pm

On Thu, 16 Feb 2006 22:32:30 -0800, "PrecisionMechanical"
<precisionmachinist@hotmail.com> wrote:

>
>"ftwhd" <ftwhd@home.com> wrote in message
>news:51eav119nmf2ol56g70paes1vh6o1gv71k@4ax.com...
>likely
>
>No, this is a refrigerated closed loop system--probly 1/4 ton compressor or
>so....really not very big...keeps the bearings temp stable--eight gallons
>perhaps of glycol mix circulates within the milling spindle housing in order
>to limit /control rather minute amounts of thermal expansion.
>

Yeah I know what your talking about. Ive seen that rig on high
speed Spencer blowers used to exhaust diesel fumes in engine test
cells. The ones Ive seen were fed off the main chilled loop.

Since it is a closed loop I still dont understand where the loss comes
from. Why do you need to add glycol?

I do know that the smaller amounts of glycol cost a hell of a lot more
than a 55 gallon drum. You can get it in 5 gallon buckets but its
expensive.

>--NOT to be confused with "coolant"...which is typically a water / oil mix
>else some synthetic ( usually triethanolamine )--in either case, "coolant"
>is what cools and lubricates at the workpiece /tool interface...(more
>properly called "cutting fluid" ).....drains back into an open recirculating
>sump, chipmaking machinery will have typically have screens to keep metal
>shavings from fouling the pump impellor, while with grinding processes there
>will often be magnetic filtration in place due to the volume and small size
>of the particulates...
>
Right, I understand all that being some what familiar with grinding
and machining processes.
>
>Yeah, I should...the pump OEM name is probly on the unit...
>
>Might link to a picture of the entire chiller later if I get a chance--the
>manufacturer's name escapes me at the moment.
>
Thats ok. Ive already forgotten what your original question was. lol
>===
>
>Fucking Arctic front moving in, temps dropping fast--mid to low teens
>soon....finished putting the 3-1/2 ton wshp back online just a couple
>minutes ago--5 ton air source unit simply can't keep up with that kinda OA.

Not according to Pj.

PrecisionMechanicaL

2006-02-17, 10:21 pm

"ftwhd" <ftwhd@home.com> wrote in message
news:pjgcv1l432lt8207nle6e67labgbcvj1hq@4ax.com...
>
> Since it is a closed loop I still dont understand where the loss comes
> from. Why do you need to add glycol?
>

If the spindle cartridge is removed for any reason then there is loss....its
sealed from the jacket via O-rings.

You can catch it in a 5 gal bucket or somesuch, but it will still pick up
contaminants..oils, metallic fines, etc...like I say, only a small loss so
not really worth filtering out for re-use.

>
> I do know that the smaller amounts of glycol cost a hell of a lot more
> than a 55 gallon drum. You can get it in 5 gallon buckets but its
> expensive.
>

http://www.kmac-parts.com/cgi-bin/kmac/52-100.html

OA.[color=darkred]
>
> Not according to Pj.

Depends on heat load of the conditioned space, I spose...<G>

==

Gonna pick up several more of those wshp's tomorrow--460 /3....hadn't wanted
to have to buy a step up transformer in order go up from 230 /3 but the
answer was sitting in front of me all along ( boneyard in front of the shop
building )--I've several large surplus welders...dual voltage 400 A
units...so now probly just gonna pull the transformer out of one and rewire
up the primarys as a wye autotransformer.

Thought some 3ph transformer schematics might come in handy for some of you
folks, so here is a couple links I thought were pretty good :

http://tinyurl.com/9cjk3

http://tinyurl.com/75dt9

Cheers,

--

SVL

gofish@gonefishin.net

2006-02-17, 10:21 pm

"PrecisionMechanical" wrote:

>
>Fucking Arctic front moving in, temps dropping fast--mid to low teens
>soon....finished putting the 3-1/2 ton wshp back online just a couple
>minutes ago--5 ton air source unit simply can't keep up with that kinda OA.

hey Sam why dontcha go out back and split up a few cords of wood.
That ought to keep you warm for awhile. hee hee

PrecisionMechanical

2006-02-17, 11:21 pm

<gofish@gonefishin.net> wrote in message
news:bgvcv157o03dc2mfcfjrogh7hjnbvgsikj@4ax.com...

>
> hey Sam why dontcha go out back and split up a few cords of wood.
>

LOL...screw that, I already done spent 1/2 my lifetime doing that
shit......hell--back when the kids were small, I even routinely cut firewood
to sell--in my spare time or if / when between steady jobs--had a deuce anna
half cormbinder stakebed, coulpa chainsaws, the whole bit....

> That ought to keep you warm for awhile. hee hee

About 5 years from now I'll probly have a few more acres logged off...best
to wait, after~ 20in dia or so, the fiber mass starts accumulating fairly
rapidly..total board feet is what gets you yield, dollar wise.....

Meanwhile, I currently go through probly a cord or less / year...3
fireplaces here, ( though one has a insert in it )--but just too much damned
work involved in actually trying to provide any kinda steady heat with the
stuff....dirt, bugs, smoke, etc. aside....

--

SVL

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