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Trane -- House inspection -- Maximum Breaker Size
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| crutnacker@gmail.com 2006-02-12, 2:21 pm |
| We had a new house inspected yesterday and one of the comments was that
the breaker to the unit was rated at 40 Amps. The inspector said that
an electrician will say it is fine, but that Trane's maximum is 35 Amps
and going over it means that if there's a problem in the unit, it
potentially won't trip the breaker.
Is this much ado about nothing or should it be fixed? (Note: my
numbers may be off, but he did indicate the breaker takes more of a
load than Trane recommends). I believe the unit is a TR11 or XL11
(something with an 11 in it).
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| Noon-Air 2006-02-12, 3:21 pm |
|
<crutnacker@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1139765107.193316.19530@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> We had a new house inspected yesterday and one of the comments was that
> the breaker to the unit was rated at 40 Amps. The inspector said that
> an electrician will say it is fine, but that Trane's maximum is 35 Amps
> and going over it means that if there's a problem in the unit, it
> potentially won't trip the breaker.
>
> Is this much ado about nothing or should it be fixed? (Note: my
> numbers may be off, but he did indicate the breaker takes more of a
> load than Trane recommends). I believe the unit is a TR11 or XL11
> (something with an 11 in it).
Its entirely possible that the HVAC sub was the lowest bidder, and thats
just what he had on his truck that day.
The data plate should give a minimum and a maximum fuse/breaker size.... if
the breaker or fuses are not within that range, its wrong and can
potentially be dangerous(fire hazard). While your getting things inspected,
make sure they used the correct size wire for the outside unit and not just
12-2 Romex. 1 foot of good wire is far better than a mile of fire hose.
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| volts500 2006-02-12, 3:21 pm |
| crutnacker@gmail.com wrote:
> We had a new house inspected yesterday and one of the comments was that
> the breaker to the unit was rated at 40 Amps. The inspector said that
> an electrician will say it is fine, but that Trane's maximum is 35 Amps
> and going over it means that if there's a problem in the unit, it
> potentially won't trip the breaker.
>
> Is this much ado about nothing or should it be fixed?
Yes it should be fixed. 35 amps is a standard breaker size, but you'll
probably have to go to an electric supply house to get one. I'm
impressed that a home inspector caught it. This post crossposted back
to AHR so as not to offend boy Pauly.
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| hallerb@aol.com 2006-02-12, 4:21 pm |
| Hey a GREAT HOME INSPECTOR! Good catch too bad more arent that good
Definetely replace that breaker!
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| volts500 2006-02-12, 5:21 pm |
| ..p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com wrote:
> On 12 Feb 2006 09:25:07 -0800, crutnacker@gmail.com wrote:
>
>
> A ) shoot the inspector, he's clueless
You're the clueless fuck. Anything over the 35 amp MOP is NOT
acceptable. This is just another fine example of how you and your
band of idiot flex duct boys don't know the first thing about the
electrical requirements of the very equipment that you install.
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"volts500" <volts440@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1139770392.395645.220180@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> crutnacker@gmail.com wrote:
>
>
> Yes it should be fixed. 35 amps is a standard breaker size, but you'll
> probably have to go to an electric supply house to get one. I'm
> impressed that a home inspector caught it. This post crossposted back
> to AHR so as not to offend boy Pauly.
I am not sure where you shop, but in 30 plus years I have never seen a 35
amp RESIDENTIAL breaker. I do so little residential that it is possible. A
quick google for square dog proved no such animal.
A fused disconnect at the unit with 35 amp time delay fuses would solve the
problem. Sadly most contractors use the damn pullouts now days instead of a
fused disconnect. If indeed the infector is right. Have you actually looked
on the unit yourself? All a/c units say min and max circuit capacity.
What does the local jurisdiction have to say? You said new house, or is it
just new to you?
If there is a problem with the compressor it will indeed trip a 40 amp
breaker.
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| http://www.southlandelectrical.com/...1FEFAEVERESTBC2}&ic=QO235H-R
"SQLit" <sqlit@qwest.net> wrote in message
news:PfOHf.37$IK4.1131@news.uswest.net...
>
> "volts500" <volts440@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:1139770392.395645.220180@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> I am not sure where you shop, but in 30 plus years I have never seen a 35
> amp RESIDENTIAL breaker. I do so little residential that it is possible.
> A
> quick google for square dog proved no such animal.
>
> A fused disconnect at the unit with 35 amp time delay fuses would solve
> the
> problem. Sadly most contractors use the damn pullouts now days instead of
> a
> fused disconnect. If indeed the infector is right. Have you actually
> looked
> on the unit yourself? All a/c units say min and max circuit capacity.
>
> What does the local jurisdiction have to say? You said new house, or is
> it
> just new to you?
>
> If there is a problem with the compressor it will indeed trip a 40 amp
> breaker.
>
>
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| Noon-Air 2006-02-12, 10:21 pm |
|
"SQLit" <sqlit@qwest.net> wrote in message
news:PfOHf.37$IK4.1131@news.uswest.net...
>
> "volts500" <volts440@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:1139770392.395645.220180@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> I am not sure where you shop, but in 30 plus years I have never seen a 35
> amp RESIDENTIAL breaker. I do so little residential that it is possible.
> A
> quick google for square dog proved no such animal.
>
> A fused disconnect at the unit with 35 amp time delay fuses would solve
> the
> problem. Sadly most contractors use the damn pullouts now days instead of
> a
> fused disconnect. If indeed the infector is right. Have you actually
> looked
> on the unit yourself? All a/c units say min and max circuit capacity.
>
> What does the local jurisdiction have to say? You said new house, or is
> it
> just new to you?
>
> If there is a problem with the compressor it will indeed trip a 40 amp
> breaker.
Try this;
http://store.yahoo.com/electricsupp...qdcibrho13.html
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| Stretch 2006-02-12, 10:21 pm |
|
SQLit wrote:
>
> A fused disconnect at the unit with 35 amp time delay fuses would solve the
> problem. Sadly most contractors use the damn pullouts now days instead of a
> fused disconnect. If indeed the infector is right. Have you actually looked
> on the unit yourself? All a/c units say min and max circuit capacity.
>
> What does the local jurisdiction have to say? You said new house, or is it
> just new to you?
>
> If there is a problem with the compressor it will indeed trip a 40 amp
> breaker.
Actually, if the unit calls for a Maximum Fuse OR breaker size of 35
amps, a 35 amp fused disconnect at the outdoor unot will do fine. If
the unit nameplate says maximum breaker size (without mentioning a fuse
size), then you must use a 35 amp breaker.
I carry the 15 and 25 and the 35 amp Square D, GE, and Homeline
breakers on my truck for just that purpose. These are residential plug
in breakers, 2 pole. Not the screw in commercial types. The big box
stores don't always have them, but I get them easily at electrical
supply houses.
Stretch
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| Cooltemp Industries 2006-02-12, 11:21 pm |
|
Stretch wrote:
> I carry the 15 and 25 and the 35 amp Square D, GE, and Homeline
> breakers on my truck for just that purpose. These are residential plug
> in breakers, 2 pole. Not the screw in commercial types. The big box
> stores don't always have them, but I get them easily at electrical
> supply houses.
I just use pennies.
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| Gary E 2006-02-13, 1:21 am |
| I'll probably get blasted for this but here goes.
First of all if there isn't a 35 amp or less somewhere in the line between
the main panel & the unit he's technically correct.
But if it were my own house I'd rather have the 40 amp in there assuming the
wire is sized right.
Like someone else posted if there's a problem with the compressor the 40 amp
will trip.
There's just more chance of a nuisance trip with a smaller breaker than a
larger one.
A larger one will more than likely last longer.
The manufacturer does put the numbers on the unit for the unit's protection
& there is always a chance that oversizing can damage the unit but in this
circumstance it is very very slim.
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volts500 wrote:
> .p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com wrote:
>
>
>
> You're the clueless fuck. Anything over the 35 amp MOP is NOT
> acceptable. This is just another fine example of how you and your
> band of idiot flex duct boys don't know the first thing about the
> electrical requirements of the very equipment that you install.
Are you sure? Aren't you forgetting your own previous lessons. Under
certain conditions you can go up in breaker size. I'll let you recall
what those conditions were.
Hint: They involve nuisance trips.
It's ironic to see Paul and yourself in reverse roles in this argument.
Richard Perry
| |
|
| I wonder what the chance would be.. if the condenser coil became plugged up
with material, enough to cause the unit to draw just a bit more. Say more
than expected by the Mfg.? Say enough to heat up the wiring in the conduit.
Or hot enough to cause the compressor terminal connections to turn to toast.
I don't know, what do you think? I think I'd stick with the recommended
rating on the Mfg.'s plate......
Zyp
"Gary E" <garye@1access.net> wrote in message
news:1jUHf.14672$Eq.4003@trnddc02...
> I'll probably get blasted for this but here goes.
> First of all if there isn't a 35 amp or less somewhere in the line
> between
> the main panel & the unit he's technically correct.
> But if it were my own house I'd rather have the 40 amp in there assuming
> the
> wire is sized right.
> Like someone else posted if there's a problem with the compressor the 40
> amp
> will trip.
> There's just more chance of a nuisance trip with a smaller breaker than a
> larger one.
> A larger one will more than likely last longer.
> The manufacturer does put the numbers on the unit for the unit's
> protection
> & there is always a chance that oversizing can damage the unit but in this
> circumstance it is very very slim.
>
>
| |
| Noon-Air 2006-02-13, 9:21 am |
|
"Gary E" <garye@1access.net> wrote in message
news:1jUHf.14672$Eq.4003@trnddc02...
> I'll probably get blasted for this but here goes.
> First of all if there isn't a 35 amp or less somewhere in the line
> between
> the main panel & the unit he's technically correct.
> But if it were my own house I'd rather have the 40 amp in there assuming
> the
> wire is sized right.
> Like someone else posted if there's a problem with the compressor the 40
> amp
> will trip.
> There's just more chance of a nuisance trip with a smaller breaker than a
> larger one.
> A larger one will more than likely last longer.
> The manufacturer does put the numbers on the unit for the unit's
> protection
> & there is always a chance that oversizing can damage the unit but in this
> circumstance it is very very slim.
The engineers that design the equipment have a lot more education, training
and experience than I do, and also make a hell of a lot more money.... Its
not my job to second guess them. If they spec a specific size breaker, there
is a reason. FWIW, its been my experience that the data plates specify a
minimum and a maximum breaker/fuse size. It seems to me that if you're
inside that range, that your golden. To go below the minimum, you will have
nuisance trips, likewise if its over the maximum, then you have the distinct
possibility of other problems.
I have a couple of questions for the OP.....
That 40A breaker.... was it in the distribution panel??
What size were the breaker or fuses in the unit's disconnect box??
| |
| volts500 2006-02-13, 11:21 am |
| RP wrote:
> volts500 wrote:
>
>
> Are you sure? Aren't you forgetting your own previous lessons. Under
> certain conditions you can go up in breaker size.
The MOP cannot be exceeded, period, there are no "certain conditions".
If you recall in the last "lesson" the MCA was 34 amps and the MOP was
50 amps. Someone suggested using a 40 amp breaker, and if it nuisance
tripped to install a start kit. I would consider that a red flag. All
they had to do was install the ALLOWED 50 amp MOP. Evidently they are
scared because that would involve putting a 50 amp breaker on #8 wire
and they are too fucking stupid to know that it is permitted by NEC.
| |
| Gary E 2006-02-13, 12:21 pm |
| >
> The engineers that design the equipment have a lot more education,
training
> and experience than I do, and also make a hell of a lot more money.... Its
> not my job to second guess them. If they spec a specific size breaker,
there
> is a reason. FWIW, its been my experience that the data plates specify a
> minimum and a maximum breaker/fuse size. It seems to me that if you're
> inside that range, that your golden. To go below the minimum, you will
have
> nuisance trips, likewise if its over the maximum, then you have the
distinct
> possibility of other problems.
I don't disagree with you.
I always go by the manufacturers spec (maximum usually) on a system I
install.
The inspectors around here are very concientious about it too so I make it a
habit to tell the electricians on new
construction what size breaker to put in to save them grief too.
An oversized breaker definitely poses a risk factor but just not that great.
I just figure the percentages of hurting the compressor with a slightly
oversized breaker are not that great of a concern.
I've seen too many units last 25 years with grossly oversized breakers to
worry about an old system with a slightly
oversized breaker.
>
> I have a couple of questions for the OP.....
> That 40A breaker.... was it in the distribution panel??
> What size were the breaker or fuses in the unit's disconnect box??
>
I was wondering that too.
Knowing home inspectors I doubt he ever checked both.
He probably just went to a class last week where the unit breaker size was
covered.
Everytime the city inspectors go to a refresher course they come up with
something new.
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| Noon-Air 2006-02-13, 12:21 pm |
|
"Gary E" <garye@1access.net> wrote in message
news:vp1If.18202$0H1.15711@trnddc04...
> training
> there
> have
> distinct
>
> I don't disagree with you.
> I always go by the manufacturers spec (maximum usually) on a system I
> install.
> The inspectors around here are very concientious about it too so I make it
> a
> habit to tell the electricians on new
> construction what size breaker to put in to save them grief too.
> An oversized breaker definitely poses a risk factor but just not that
> great.
> I just figure the percentages of hurting the compressor with a slightly
> oversized breaker are not that great of a concern.
> I've seen too many units last 25 years with grossly oversized breakers to
> worry about an old system with a slightly
> oversized breaker.
>
> I was wondering that too.
> Knowing home inspectors I doubt he ever checked both.
> He probably just went to a class last week where the unit breaker size was
> covered.
> Everytime the city inspectors go to a refresher course they come up with
> something new.
My normal set-up is to run 1 size larger wire than is required from the
distribution panel, with a breaker sized to protect the wire, then install a
breaker in the disconnect sized to protect the unit. As an example, for
say.....a 3 ton Heat Pump, I put a 40 amp breaker in the panel, with 8/3
wire to the disco, then a 30 amp breaker in the disco with #8 THHN inside of
a Seal-Tite whip.
FWIW...the inspectors in the city here are pretty sharp.
| |
| Gary E 2006-02-13, 12:21 pm |
|
> I wonder what the chance would be..
very little
if the condenser coil became plugged up
> with material, enough to cause the unit to draw just a bit more. Say more
> than expected by the Mfg.?
Even the correct size breaker would rarely trip before the internal overload
on the compressor on that scenario.
> Say enough to heat up the wiring in the conduit.
Then the wiring is the wrong size for the breaker.
A whole different scenario that has nothing to do with the equipment.
> Or hot enough to cause the compressor terminal connections to turn to
toast.
A possibility, but it can also happen with the correct size breaker also.
> I don't know, what do you think? I think I'd stick with the recommended
> rating on the Mfg.'s plate......
If it's not my house I do but mainly for liability sake.
But for my own house I wouldn't worry about going a little bigger than
manufacturer recommended.
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| Oscar_Lives 2006-02-13, 1:21 pm |
|
"Noon-Air" <Noon-Air@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:W56dnR45X4chO23eRVn-rQ@comcast.com...
>
> "Gary E" <garye@1access.net> wrote in message
> news:vp1If.18202$0H1.15711@trnddc04...
>
> My normal set-up is to run 1 size larger wire than is required from the
> distribution panel, with a breaker sized to protect the wire, then install
> a breaker in the disconnect sized to protect the unit. As an example, for
> say.....a 3 ton Heat Pump, I put a 40 amp breaker in the panel, with 8/3
> wire to the disco, then a 30 amp breaker in the disco with #8 THHN inside
> of a Seal-Tite whip.
>
> FWIW...the inspectors in the city here are pretty sharp.
>
This is pretty common practice around here, too. I think it is a good one,
too.
| |
| Gary E 2006-02-13, 1:21 pm |
| > My normal set-up is to run 1 size larger wire than is required from the
> distribution panel, with a breaker sized to protect the wire, then install
a
> breaker in the disconnect sized to protect the unit. As an example, for
> say.....a 3 ton Heat Pump, I put a 40 amp breaker in the panel, with 8/3
> wire to the disco, then a 30 amp breaker in the disco with #8 THHN inside
of
> a Seal-Tite whip.
That sounds excellent.
I wish the electricians around here thought like you.They go the cheapest
way possible.
I just set two three ton units & they run a 10/2 w/g from the panel w/ 30
amp breaker & then a 60amp pull out disconnect box. I don't do the
electrical on new construction, just from the unit to the disconnect.
Gary
| |
| Noon-Air 2006-02-13, 1:21 pm |
|
"Gary E" <garye@1access.net> wrote in message
news:Yz2If.2543$Lr.56@trnddc01...
> a
> of
>
> That sounds excellent.
> I wish the electricians around here thought like you.They go the cheapest
> way possible.
> I just set two three ton units & they run a 10/2 w/g from the panel w/
> 30
> amp breaker & then a 60amp pull out disconnect box. I don't do the
> electrical on new construction, just from the unit to the disconnect.
>
>
> Gary
The hacks that do it cheap use the pull-outs, and Romex inside of
Carflex(maybe). My customers pay me to do it right, and I give them the
very highest quality installation possible. A lot of my customers have been
bent over in the past by hacks from trying to get it done cheap.
When I am working with electricians, or builders, I give them the disco box
I want used, and I will spec exactly what size breaker in the dist panel and
what type/size of wire from the panel to the disco. Any arguements stop real
quick when I tell them that 1 foot of good wire is a lot better than a mile
of fire hose.
| |
| James Storm 2006-02-13, 11:21 pm |
| Noon-Air wrote:
> "Gary E" <garye@1access.net> wrote in message
> news:1jUHf.14672$Eq.4003@trnddc02...
>
>
>
> The engineers that design the equipment have a lot more education, training
> and experience than I do, and also make a hell of a lot more money.... Its
> not my job to second guess them. If they spec a specific size breaker, there
> is a reason. FWIW, its been my experience that the data plates specify a
> minimum and a maximum breaker/fuse size. It seems to me that if you're
> inside that range, that your golden. To go below the minimum, you will have
> nuisance trips, likewise if its over the maximum, then you have the distinct
> possibility of other problems.
I sometimes wonder if that 20 something engineer, fresh out of school,
and never even worked on an A/C unit before and now is the designer.
Looks good on paper... Sometimes I wonder.
>
> I have a couple of questions for the OP.....
> That 40A breaker.... was it in the distribution panel??
> What size were the breaker or fuses in the unit's disconnect box??
>
>
--
James Storm
aka Stormy Weather
jstorm@ptd.net
| |
| volts500 2006-02-14, 4:21 pm |
|
James Storm wrote:[color=darkred]
> Noon-Air wrote:
>
> I sometimes wonder if that 20 something engineer, fresh out of school,
> and never even worked on an A/C unit before and now is the designer.
> Looks good on paper... Sometimes I wonder.
Some times I wonder if even BOY Pauli's sorry sack of shit even know
the difference between MCA anfd MOP..............
| |
| volts500 2006-02-14, 8:21 pm |
| Noon-Air wrote:
> "Gary E" <garye@1access.net> wrote in message
> news:Yz2If.2543$Lr.56@trnddc01...
>
> The hacks that do it cheap use the pull-outs, and Romex inside of
> Carflex(maybe). My customers pay me to do it right, and I give them the
> very highest quality installation possible. A lot of my customers have been
> bent over in the past by hacks from trying to get it done cheap.
>
> When I am working with electricians, or builders, I give them the disco box
> I want used, and I will spec exactly what size breaker in the dist panel and
> what type/size of wire from the panel to the disco. Any arguements stop real
> quick when I tell them that 1 foot of good wire is a lot better than a mile
> of fire hose.
Where's the fire? Do make your your NEC cites or shut the fuck up.
Since when is a code compliant installation a hack job, XXXXXXX? You
sorry sumbitches wouldn't know a quality installation if it kicked you
in the XXX.
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