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Home > Archive > Heating and air conditioning > March 2006 > Water in refrigerant line
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Water in refrigerant line
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| I'm not a HVAC guy---just a homeowner with a question. My AC system is
a heat pump that uses a closed loop water circulation sytem as the heat
exchange medium. I had a new heat pump and airhandling system
installed about four years ago. The water circulation plumbing was
fine and left as is. In the first year the air/freon heat exchanger
leaked and was replaced and the water/freon heat exchanger developed an
internal leak and was replaced. Sensing that I had a problem, I bought
a 10 year parts and labor extended warranty on the heat pump system
from the manufacturer.
When the water/freon heat exchanger was replaced, the compressor was
also replaced and the system was evacuated thoroughly.
Here we are 4 years later and the water/freon heat exchanger failed
again. This time it took the compressor with it. Water so impregnated
the freon lines that it dribbled out of the schrader valve when the
tech was going to check the pressure of the system. Its been that way
for 3 weeks now awaiting parts.
I've read that mixing water, freon and the lubricant that is in the
lines will result in the formation of acid. My suspicion is that the
first failure a few years back led to the current problem and that the
current soaking of the system will lead to subsequent problems so that
by the time my lengthy warranty expires, I'll have to replace the
entire system.
My questions follow.
Does water in the system result in the formation of acid(s)? Any
reference material available on the web?
Will a thorough evacuation result in the removal of all residual acid
including that in the oil coating the interior of the lines?
When the system is recharged is oil added to the freon? In my
situation how would one go about getting the proper amount of lubricant
back into the refrigerant lines?
I'm on good terms with the local local HVAC guys that installed the
system. They service the extended warranty contract even though they
no longer market the original manufacturer's systems. The manufacturer
wants to replace the compressor and the water/freon heat exchanger and
see what happens. Is this a reasonable approach or should the entire
system be replaced in order to ensure that no contaminants remain?
| |
| .p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com 2006-03-23, 2:21 pm |
| On 23 Mar 2006 09:20:59 -0800, "Ernie" <erniewerner@yahoo.com> wrote:
>I'm not a HVAC guy---just a homeowner with a question. My AC system is
Then post in alt.home.repair, not here.
--
Click here every day to feed an animal that needs you today !!!
http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/
Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'
'With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.'
HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/
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"Ernie" <erniewerner@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1143134459.249613.305700@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> I'm not a HVAC guy---just a homeowner with a question. My AC system is
> a heat pump that uses a closed loop water circulation sytem as the heat
> exchange medium. I had a new heat pump and airhandling system
> installed about four years ago. The water circulation plumbing was
> fine and left as is. In the first year the air/freon heat exchanger
> leaked and was replaced and the water/freon heat exchanger developed an
> internal leak and was replaced. Sensing that I had a problem, I bought
> a 10 year parts and labor extended warranty on the heat pump system
> from the manufacturer.
>
> When the water/freon heat exchanger was replaced, the compressor was
> also replaced and the system was evacuated thoroughly.
>
> Here we are 4 years later and the water/freon heat exchanger failed
> again. This time it took the compressor with it. Water so impregnated
> the freon lines that it dribbled out of the schrader valve when the
> tech was going to check the pressure of the system. Its been that way
> for 3 weeks now awaiting parts.
>
> I've read that mixing water, freon and the lubricant that is in the
> lines will result in the formation of acid. My suspicion is that the
> first failure a few years back led to the current problem and that the
> current soaking of the system will lead to subsequent problems so that
> by the time my lengthy warranty expires, I'll have to replace the
> entire system.
>
> My questions follow.
>
> Does water in the system result in the formation of acid(s)?
Any reference material available on the web?
All depend how long water was in system!
and if system have been clean properly
Dido
>
> Will a thorough evacuation result in the removal of all residual acid
> including that in the oil coating the interior of the lines?
That is big question purging the system few times will help
Dido
>
> When the system is recharged is oil added to the freon? In my
> situation how would one go about getting the proper amount of lubricant
> back into the refrigerant lines?
If you did not take any out you do not need adding
if you took it out put the same amount back in.
>
> I'm on good terms with the local local HVAC guys that installed the
> system. They service the extended warranty contract even though they
> no longer market the original manufacturer's systems. The manufacturer
> wants to replace the compressor and the water/freon heat exchanger and
> see what happens.
> Is this a reasonable approach or should the entire
> system be replaced in order to ensure that no contaminants remain?
If you willing to pay for it, otherwise it is up to warrantee people
to decide what to do.
Dido
| |
| SteveG 2006-03-23, 8:21 pm |
| I'm not an HVAC guy either, but I did take AIR101 and AIR102 last year!
Your compressor is failing because of water, not because of the amount
of oil in the system. You may have a leak problem due to improper
evacuation or an improper drier filter. Acid does form in the line
from mixture of water with air, oil and refrigerant. It eats away at
the conections/seals inside the systam. Water can devistate a sealed
system by destroying the compressor. When water in a system travels
from the liquid line into the evaporator, it does not boil or evaporate
in the evaporator as it has a much higher boiling point than the
refrigerant. The liquid refrigerant does, turns into an evaporated
gas, enters the compressor, but the compressor can not compress the
liquid H20, and enough water could cause the compressor to break a
seal, throw a rod, etc. The solution is to evacuate the system
PROPERLY and use a micronmeter to check for leaks. First, your tech
will use a recovery machine to get rid of the gas and pump it into a
recovery tank. Then he'll use a 2-stage pump to pull a vaccum and
SHOULD use a micronmeter to measure the vaccum pressure to below 100
microns. The 100 micron vaccum will drop the boiling point to boil away
anything in the system. When he shuts the pump off he'll watch the
meter to see if holds below 100 microns. If not, air is getting sucked
into the system via a leak (cracks, bad Schraeder valves, etc.) They
need to be found with leak detection devices (from electronic to liquid
soap bubbles). After pulling the vaccurm, your tech should blow the
system out with Nitrogen to clean it out and recharge the system. If
you REALLY want to get technical, there is good Nitrogen and BAD
Nitrogen - you can call an experienced household appliance repair man
to find out where the good stuff is (most HVAC techs won't know this as
household appliance repair men deal with only a few ounces of
refrigerant and depend on very clean Nitrogen) The tech should double
check with the manufacturer re: using the proper filter drier (or he
may add one) which filters out future water/acid in the system. The
manufacturer can exchange the compressor and heat exchanger, but until
the system is properly evacuated, you may have the same problem down
the road.
| |
| .p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com 2006-03-23, 8:21 pm |
| On 23 Mar 2006 15:19:38 -0800, "SteveG" <carolinesteve@prodigy.net>
wrote:
>I'm not an HVAC guy either, but I did take AIR101 and AIR102 last year!
STFU, XXXXXXX.
--
Click here every day to feed an animal that needs you today !!!
http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/
Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'
'With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.'
HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/
| |
| gofish@gonefishin.net 2006-03-24, 12:21 am |
| On 23 Mar 2006 09:20:59 -0800, "Ernie" <erniewerner@yahoo.com> wrote:
>I'm not a HVAC guy---just a homeowner with a question. My AC system is
>a heat pump that uses a closed loop water circulation sytem as the heat
>exchange medium. I had a new heat pump and airhandling system
>installed about four years ago. The water circulation plumbing was
>fine and left as is. In the first year the air/freon heat exchanger
>leaked and was replaced and the water/freon heat exchanger developed an
>internal leak and was replaced. Sensing that I had a problem, I bought
>a 10 year parts and labor extended warranty on the heat pump system
>from the manufacturer.
>
>When the water/freon heat exchanger was replaced, the compressor was
>also replaced and the system was evacuated thoroughly.
>
>Here we are 4 years later and the water/freon heat exchanger failed
>again. This time it took the compressor with it. Water so impregnated
>the freon lines that it dribbled out of the schrader valve when the
>tech was going to check the pressure of the system. Its been that way
>for 3 weeks now awaiting parts.
>
>I've read that mixing water, freon and the lubricant that is in the
>lines will result in the formation of acid. My suspicion is that the
>first failure a few years back led to the current problem and that the
>current soaking of the system will lead to subsequent problems so that
>by the time my lengthy warranty expires, I'll have to replace the
>entire system.
>
>My questions follow.
>
>Does water in the system result in the formation of acid(s)? Any
>reference material available on the web?
YES !! and YES !! (google is your friend)
try something like ..... acid formation in refrigerant systems
>
>Will a thorough evacuation result in the removal of all residual acid
>including that in the oil coating the interior of the lines?
NO !!!!!!
>
>When the system is recharged is oil added to the freon? In my
>situation how would one go about getting the proper amount of lubricant
>back into the refrigerant lines?
When a new compressor is installed, it typically contains all the
required oil.
>
>I'm on good terms with the local local HVAC guys that installed the
>system. They service the extended warranty contract even though they
>no longer market the original manufacturer's systems. The manufacturer
>wants to replace the compressor and the water/freon heat exchanger and
>see what happens. Is this a reasonable approach or should the entire
>system be replaced in order to ensure that no contaminants remain?
If it were my system, every component of the water/freon hx loop
would be replaced with new. I would also seek out a 10 yr P&L
warranty on all new components & installation.
Short of that, have the installers use an RX-11 flush kit until
there's no more acid present, & have them install a cartridge type
filter drier and change it religiously, as well as test for acid
yearly.
If the manufacturer wants to "see what happens", ask them who's money
they are gambling with....theirs or yours.
Also, if you're awaiting parts for 3 weeks, ask them what their backup
plan is....other than "see what happens".
| |
| Nathan W. Collier 2006-03-24, 1:21 am |
| gofish did a great job answering your questions, so i wont be redundant. im
am curious, does anyone know where we can find the alt.hvac charter?
--
Nathan W. Collier
http://UtilityOffRoad.com
http://7SlotGrille.com
http://InlineDiesel.com
http://BighornRefrigeration.com
http://ConcealedCarryForum.com
"Ernie" <erniewerner@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1143134459.249613.305700@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> I'm not a HVAC guy---just a homeowner with a question. My AC system is
> a heat pump that uses a closed loop water circulation sytem as the heat
> exchange medium. I had a new heat pump and airhandling system
> installed about four years ago. The water circulation plumbing was
> fine and left as is. In the first year the air/freon heat exchanger
> leaked and was replaced and the water/freon heat exchanger developed an
> internal leak and was replaced. Sensing that I had a problem, I bought
> a 10 year parts and labor extended warranty on the heat pump system
> from the manufacturer.
>
> When the water/freon heat exchanger was replaced, the compressor was
> also replaced and the system was evacuated thoroughly.
>
> Here we are 4 years later and the water/freon heat exchanger failed
> again. This time it took the compressor with it. Water so impregnated
> the freon lines that it dribbled out of the schrader valve when the
> tech was going to check the pressure of the system. Its been that way
> for 3 weeks now awaiting parts.
>
> I've read that mixing water, freon and the lubricant that is in the
> lines will result in the formation of acid. My suspicion is that the
> first failure a few years back led to the current problem and that the
> current soaking of the system will lead to subsequent problems so that
> by the time my lengthy warranty expires, I'll have to replace the
> entire system.
>
> My questions follow.
>
> Does water in the system result in the formation of acid(s)? Any
> reference material available on the web?
>
> Will a thorough evacuation result in the removal of all residual acid
> including that in the oil coating the interior of the lines?
>
> When the system is recharged is oil added to the freon? In my
> situation how would one go about getting the proper amount of lubricant
> back into the refrigerant lines?
>
> I'm on good terms with the local local HVAC guys that installed the
> system. They service the extended warranty contract even though they
> no longer market the original manufacturer's systems. The manufacturer
> wants to replace the compressor and the water/freon heat exchanger and
> see what happens. Is this a reasonable approach or should the entire
> system be replaced in order to ensure that no contaminants remain?
>
>
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| [original post is likely clipped to save bandwidth]
On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 21:48:13 -0700, "Nathan W. Collier"
<Nathan@NoSpam.com> wrote:
>gofish did a great job answering your questions, so i wont be redundant. im
>am curious, does anyone know where we can find the alt.hvac charter?
There is no charter, no moderation. Just flames by those who don't have a
life.
gerry
--
Personal home page - http://gogood.com
gerry misspelled in my email address to confuse robots
| |
| .p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com 2006-03-24, 1:21 pm |
| On Fri, 24 Mar 2006 12:05:05 -0500, gerry <gerrrry__net@gogood.com>
wrote:
>[original post is likely clipped to save bandwidth]
>On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 21:48:13 -0700, "Nathan W. Collier"
><Nathan@NoSpam.com> wrote:
>
Oh, goody, another net/lawyer wants to play 'Chart boy'.
Fuck off.
[color=darkred]
>
>There is no charter, no moderation. Just flames by those who don't have a
>life.
>
>gerry
STFU, Gerry.
--
Click here every day to feed an animal that needs you today !!!
http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/
Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'
'With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.'
HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/
| |
| B-Hate-Me 2006-03-24, 2:21 pm |
|
<.p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com> wrote in message
news:b5e622hu4f5ife7k1m0ek81sb39f8osnur@4ax.com...
> On 23 Mar 2006 15:19:38 -0800, "SteveG" <carolinesteve@prodigy.net>
> wrote:
>
>
> STFU, XXXXXXX.
Ditto. I haven't seen such bad advice since the fucking mormun.
| |
|
| On Fri, 24 Mar 2006 07:10:41 GMT, gofish@gonefishin.net wrote:
>On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 21:48:13 -0700, "Nathan W. Collier"
><Nathan@NoSpam.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>theres no charter for alt.hvac, regardless of pjm's futile attempts at
>claiming he created this ng.
>
>
>read about it here:
>
>http://www.ibiblio.org/london/alter...y/faqs/HVAC.faq
>
>
> http://www.elitesoft.com/sci.hvac/welcome.html
I like this part. Original Newsgroup Sponsor: Lynnette
EDRN@dlep1.itg.ti.com
Pj is a typical republicon imo. Shout the lie loud and long enough
and hope that someome believes it. Either that or he had a sex
change.
| |
| PrecisionMechanical 2006-03-24, 11:21 pm |
|
<gofish@gonefishin.net> wrote in message
news:ovo622li3fqga3no42s6voud9mm0miieb5@4ax.com...
>
> If it were my system, every component of the water/freon hx loop
> would be replaced with new. I would also seek out a 10 yr P&L
> warranty on all new components & installation.
>
> Short of that, have the installers use an RX-11 flush kit until
> there's no more acid present, & have them install a cartridge type
> filter drier and change it religiously, as well as test for acid
> yearly.
>
> If the manufacturer wants to "see what happens", ask them who's money
> they are gambling with....theirs or yours.
>
Also test and if indicated treat the water loop for proper ph etc.
--
SVL
> Also, if you're awaiting parts for 3 weeks, ask them what their backup
> plan is....other than "see what happens".
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