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SIPS, online source of info?
|
|
|
| Regarding SIPs, anybody have a favorite online source for detailed info
(*.dwg's?), such as connection details, panel sizes and specifics, roof
limitations, variations in construction methods and materials, etc.?
Frankly, I don't know jack about them, have never even seen one.
Everything around these parts is standard stuff, rarely will anyone try
anything new.
Might have something to do with that 130mph thing......
| |
| Bob Morrison 2005-10-17, 4:21 pm |
| In a previous post Don wrote...
> Regarding SIPs, anybody have a favorite online source for detailed info
> (*.dwg's?), such as connection details, panel sizes and specifics, roof
> limitations, variations in construction methods and materials, etc.?
> Frankly, I don't know jack about them, have never even seen one.
> Everything around these parts is standard stuff, rarely will anyone try
> anything new.
Don:
Try this link:
http://www.pbspanels.com/sitemap.cfm
--
Bob Morrison, PE, SE
R L Morrison Engineering Co
Structural & Civil Engineering
Poulsbo WA
| |
| 3D Peruna 2005-10-17, 11:21 pm |
|
"Don" <one-if-by-land@concord.com> wrote in message
news:VAP4f.15645$vw6.5883@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
>
> Regarding SIPs, anybody have a favorite online source for detailed info
> (*.dwg's?), such as connection details, panel sizes and specifics, roof
> limitations, variations in construction methods and materials, etc.?
> Frankly, I don't know jack about them, have never even seen one.
> Everything around these parts is standard stuff, rarely will anyone try
> anything new.
> Might have something to do with that 130mph thing......
http://www.extremepanel.com/
I bought my panels from these guys.... The details aren't that tricky.
Most panel manufacturer's have the same types, but the particulars vary from
manufacturer to manufacturer.
P
| |
|
| Thanks Bob.
"Bob Morrison" <bob@ _remove_rlmorrisonengr.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1dbd8b54bee9f36f9899e4@news.west.earthlink.net...
> In a previous post Don wrote...
>
>
> Don:
>
> Try this link:
>
> http://www.pbspanels.com/sitemap.cfm
>
> --
> Bob Morrison, PE, SE
> R L Morrison Engineering Co
> Structural & Civil Engineering
> Poulsbo WA
| |
|
| Cool. Thanks.
"3D Peruna" <w!h#a$r%o^l&d@w!e#i$r%d&n*e(s)s.com> wrote in message
news:xjY4f.7950$lN2.6622@fe04.lga...
>
>
> "Don" <one-if-by-land@concord.com> wrote in message
> news:VAP4f.15645$vw6.5883@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
>
> http://www.extremepanel.com/
>
> I bought my panels from these guys.... The details aren't that tricky.
> Most panel manufacturer's have the same types, but the particulars vary
> from manufacturer to manufacturer.
>
> P
>
>
| |
| Bob Morrison 2005-10-18, 12:21 pm |
| In a previous post 3D Peruna wrote...
> http://www.extremepanel.com/
>
> I bought my panels from these guys.... The details aren't that tricky.
> Most panel manufacturer's have the same types, but the particulars vary from
> manufacturer to manufacturer.
>
Nice pictures!
As Paul says, the details aren't that tricky. Premier is here in the
Pacific NW and so I use their details, but if an owner wanted to use
another manufacturer then most of the details will work from a structural
point of view. After, there are only a few practical ways to connect
these things together.
some of the connections are the designers preference. For example when
using SIPS at two-story construction I prefer to have the second floor
joist bear on the first floor panels rather than having a 2-story high
panel with the joist hanging off a ledger. Part of this comes form the
cyclic character of seismic loading which can cause a weakness in ledger
connections. So, I try to avoid using ledgers for supporting main
structural elements unless there is no other choice.
--
Bob Morrison, PE, SE
R L Morrison Engineering Co
Structural & Civil Engineering
Poulsbo WA
| |
|
|
"Bob Morrison" <bob@ _remove_rlmorrisonengr.com> wrote
> some of the connections are the designers preference. For example when
> using SIPS at two-story construction I prefer to have the second floor
> joist bear on the first floor panels rather than having a 2-story high
> panel with the joist hanging off a ledger. Part of this comes form the
> cyclic character of seismic loading which can cause a weakness in ledger
> connections. So, I try to avoid using ledgers for supporting main
> structural elements unless there is no other choice.
Does that mean when the house rocks back and forth due to the earthquake,
the joists might slip off the side of the ledger and cause a structural
failure?
Wouldn't Simpson buckets (HU212 for example) prevent that from happening?
| |
| Bob Morrison 2005-10-18, 2:21 pm |
| In a previous post Don wrote...
> Does that mean when the house rocks back and forth due to the earthquake,
> the joists might slip off the side of the ledger and cause a structural
> failure?
Yes.
> Wouldn't Simpson buckets (HU212 for example) prevent that from happening?
>
No. The nails in the joist are too close to the end of the member and
will pull out the end of the joist, leaving the joist on the ground and
the bucket still attached to the ledger.
This is one reason why masonry and concrete walls are required to be
anchored to the framing with something like a Simpson PA18 nailed to the
top or side of the joists.
I will use ledgers at exterior decks even though the problem described
above can happen in a seismic event. A better detail is to install
something like a horizontal LTT20 nailed alongside a deck joist and bolted
through the ledger to a horizontal LTT20 inside the house. I would
probably only do this if the deck off the 2nd story or is otherwise a long
ways above grade as in a sloping lot.
I'm working on a house now in which the first floor will be 15 feet above
grade on the downhill side and level with grade on the uphill side. The
house will sit on either concrete or wood columns (I'm thinking round
poles) with a lattice of beams to support the gravity loads. I haven't
yet worked out the system for resisting wind and seismic forces. The
exterior deck on the downhill side will definitely be firmly attached to
the house framing.
--
Bob Morrison, PE, SE
R L Morrison Engineering Co
Structural & Civil Engineering
Poulsbo WA
| |
| Kris Krieger 2005-10-18, 7:21 pm |
| "3D Peruna" <w!h#a$r%o^l&d@w!e#i$r%d&n*e(s)s.com> wrote in
news:xjY4f.7950$lN2.6622@fe04.lga:
>
>
> "Don" <one-if-by-land@concord.com> wrote in message
> news:VAP4f.15645$vw6.5883@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
>
> http://www.extremepanel.com/
Now, is this sort of product/idea something that a client could take to a
designer/architect and say, "I saw this product and it seems interesting,
can it be used, and what are the advantages/disadvantagges for this local
area?"
Also, pardon my ignorance, but is there a way that a layperson can find, on
the net, a general/ballpark comparison of any sort?
I think it'd be really useful if there was someplace that posted, for
example, the shell (IOW no carpets or counters or fixtures, since those are
totally variable) a regular basic house and maybe a fancier house, and
beneath them, post beginning cost per sq ft for regular construction, and
then list price changes for useage of various materials.
That way, a person could know right off the bat if their ideas are
potentially feasible (given their finances) or unmitigatedly absurd...
I'd post it on my site if I had the info ;)
> I bought my panels from these guys.... The details aren't that
> tricky. Most panel manufacturer's have the same types, but the
> particulars vary from manufacturer to manufacturer.
How did you like working with them? How do you like living with them?
- K.
| |
|
| "Bob Morrison"> wrote
> In a previous post Don wrote...
>
> Yes.
>
>
> No. The nails in the joist are too close to the end of the member and
> will pull out the end of the joist, leaving the joist on the ground and
> the bucket still attached to the ledger.
Use thru-bolts instead of nails. ;-)
Seriously, I try to avoid ledgers, maybe its just a personal thing.
Sometimes a ledger is the only way.
| |
|
| "Kris Krieger"> wrote
> Now, is this sort of product/idea something that a client could take to a
> designer/architect and say, "I saw this product and it seems interesting,
> can it be used, and what are the advantages/disadvantagges for this local
> area?"
>
> Also, pardon my ignorance, but is there a way that a layperson can find,
> on
> the net, a general/ballpark comparison of any sort?
>
> I think it'd be really useful if there was someplace that posted, for
> example, the shell (IOW no carpets or counters or fixtures, since those
> are
> totally variable) a regular basic house and maybe a fancier house, and
> beneath them, post beginning cost per sq ft for regular construction, and
> then list price changes for useage of various materials.
>
> That way, a person could know right off the bat if their ideas are
> potentially feasible (given their finances) or unmitigatedly absurd...
Until the known universe converts over to Per Corell's 3DH, where there is
only 1 material and you know how much it costs) you'll have to adjust to the
fact that the only way to get an accurate cost on any certain building you
will have to create a material-labor list and then price each individual
thing. I'm doing that right now, pricing a building I designed through Lowes
prices.
Even just a shell is expensive.
Funny how them $3 2x4's start to add up.
| |
| Bob Morrison 2005-10-18, 9:21 pm |
| In a previous post Kris Krieger wrote...
> Also, pardon my ignorance, but is there a way that a layperson can find, on
> the net, a general/ballpark comparison of any sort?
>
Kris:
In my experience SIPS have pluses and minuses (just like every other
thing).
The pluses include: the house is much quieter compared to a conventionally
framed house because all those studs aren't transmitting sound. The same
is true for energy efficiency and for the same reason. SIPS house usually
go up faster because in theory you are lifting the shell off a truck and
setting it in place (in pieces of course).
The minuses include "first cost". SIPS houses are more expensive to
construct. Depending on your energy costs this can be made up by the
energy savings.
Does that help?
--
Bob Morrison, PE, SE
R L Morrison Engineering Co
Structural & Civil Engineering
Poulsbo WA
| |
| 3D Peruna 2005-10-18, 10:21 pm |
|
"Bob Morrison" <bob@ _remove_rlmorrisonengr.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1dbf230c154c8659899e7@news.west.earthlink.net...
>
> The pluses include: the house is much quieter compared to a conventionally
> framed house because all those studs aren't transmitting sound. The same
> is true for energy efficiency and for the same reason. SIPS house usually
> go up faster because in theory you are lifting the shell off a truck and
> setting it in place (in pieces of course).
>
> The minuses include "first cost". SIPS houses are more expensive to
> construct. Depending on your energy costs this can be made up by the
> energy savings.
The initial cost has come down quite a bit, too. I think I was only about
10% more than conventional framing for materials, and the labor was supposed
to be less (it wasn't, but that's not because of the SIPs and is a very long
story I'd rather not get into).
| |
| Kris Krieger 2005-10-19, 2:21 pm |
| "Don" <one-if-by-land@concord.com> wrote in
news:Yve5f.18139$q1.11947@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net:
> "Kris Krieger"> wrote
>
> Until the known universe converts over to Per Corell's 3DH, where
> there is only 1 material and you know how much it costs) you'll have
> to adjust to the fact that the only way to get an accurate cost on any
> certain building you will have to create a material-labor list and
> then price each individual thing. I'm doing that right now, pricing a
> building I designed through Lowes prices.
> Even just a shell is expensive.
> Funny how them $3 2x4's start to add up.
I'm thinking of ballpark figures, as in, within $10K-$15K. IOW, say I come
up with an idea for a place - I have a preliminary floorplan and prelim.
outside. Before I go marching into a professional's office, I first want
to know whether I'd be able to at all afford the place.
So, let's say that the shell (no carpet or tile or etc. yet) of a single-
story frame-built house is $X/ft sq. Since I have an idea of how many sq
ft I want, i can multiply the two if I have an idea of the range of X.
I can find the cost for a finished house (locally, about $120 or so per sq
ft), but what I don't know how to find is, for example, the added cost of
replacing the frame-built foam-sided shell with, for example, a cinderblock
shell or a poured concrete shell, or even, replacing the foam with a
layered board such as the ISP under discussion (I saw no pricing on the
sites).
Now, if a website would say, "Our ISP board costs between $X and $Y more
per sq ft than does foam board", that's something I can calculate.
What I'm trying to do is figue out how many sq ft I could afford if I had,
say, a budget of $300K, but wanted certain construction options. Again,
ballpark figure for the shell. I can find prices for carpet, tile,
cabinets, and the other stuff that goes inside to finish it off. What i
don't know how to find is figuring out how much the shell costs - for
example, whetehr ti csts more to plumb and run electrical wiring through,
say, a house using steel studs rather than wood ones, and if it does cost
more, a general range for how much more per sq ft.
That sort of thing. Maybe there are "consumer guid"-type charts somewhere,
it's just that I doon't know what search terms I can use to find them. I
just want to get a ballpark, yet realistic, range of costs for stick versus
other options.
As it is, for example, I'm using Google to try to find something resembling
a price range for those 300-mph windows. No go yet. Every site has info
about their saving or their rebates or so on, but I've yet to come across
one that says the price range per ft sq of 300mpg glazing is between X
dollars and Y dollars. I'm trying to figure out what is and is not within
the range of what we could afford, before I even start thinking about going
to a designer/architect...
- K.
| |
|
| Most of the stuff you're talking about, if it can be found on the web at
all, would be price dependent upon location.
A 2x4 at Lowes here may cost less than at a Lowes in say Boston.
I spent about an hour in Lowes last week jotting down prices on 2x4's,
plywood, siding, windows, doors, etc.
Then I drew a basic 24'x36' building, in much greater detail (I drew the
individual studs, cripples, deadwood, etc.) than I would normally do for
permit drawings, and then created a materials list.
In AutoCAD I arranged my layers like this:
1 studs
1 bottom plates
1 top plates
1 firestops
1 rafters
1 ridge
1 barge
1 sheathing
1 siding
1 windows
1 doors, etc.
Then it was a simple matter to turn on the appropriate layer, then draw a
box around the items and look at the bottom to see the quantity.
Then in Publisher I made the materials list and entered all the numbers and
Lowes prices.
This then showed me how much THIS building would costs RIGHT NOW, RIGHT
HERE.
Those numbers would be different where you live.
Its not hard, if you understand whats below the skin on any given building,
just a little time consuming.
"Kris Krieger" <pteroDELETE_THISchromics@earthlinkDELETE.net> wrote in
message news:Guu5f.2778$fc7.877@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> "Don" <one-if-by-land@concord.com> wrote in
> news:Yve5f.18139$q1.11947@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net:
>
>
> I'm thinking of ballpark figures, as in, within $10K-$15K. IOW, say I
> come
> up with an idea for a place - I have a preliminary floorplan and prelim.
> outside. Before I go marching into a professional's office, I first want
> to know whether I'd be able to at all afford the place.
>
> So, let's say that the shell (no carpet or tile or etc. yet) of a single-
> story frame-built house is $X/ft sq. Since I have an idea of how many sq
> ft I want, i can multiply the two if I have an idea of the range of X.
>
> I can find the cost for a finished house (locally, about $120 or so per sq
> ft), but what I don't know how to find is, for example, the added cost of
> replacing the frame-built foam-sided shell with, for example, a
> cinderblock
> shell or a poured concrete shell, or even, replacing the foam with a
> layered board such as the ISP under discussion (I saw no pricing on the
> sites).
>
> Now, if a website would say, "Our ISP board costs between $X and $Y more
> per sq ft than does foam board", that's something I can calculate.
>
> What I'm trying to do is figue out how many sq ft I could afford if I had,
> say, a budget of $300K, but wanted certain construction options. Again,
> ballpark figure for the shell. I can find prices for carpet, tile,
> cabinets, and the other stuff that goes inside to finish it off. What i
> don't know how to find is figuring out how much the shell costs - for
> example, whetehr ti csts more to plumb and run electrical wiring through,
> say, a house using steel studs rather than wood ones, and if it does cost
> more, a general range for how much more per sq ft.
>
> That sort of thing. Maybe there are "consumer guid"-type charts
> somewhere,
> it's just that I doon't know what search terms I can use to find them. I
> just want to get a ballpark, yet realistic, range of costs for stick
> versus
> other options.
>
> As it is, for example, I'm using Google to try to find something
> resembling
> a price range for those 300-mph windows. No go yet. Every site has info
> about their saving or their rebates or so on, but I've yet to come across
> one that says the price range per ft sq of 300mpg glazing is between X
> dollars and Y dollars. I'm trying to figure out what is and is not within
> the range of what we could afford, before I even start thinking about
> going
> to a designer/architect...
>
> - K.
>
| |
| Kris Krieger 2005-10-19, 2:21 pm |
| Bob Morrison <bob@ _remove_rlmorrisonengr.com> wrote in
news:MPG.1dbf230c154c8659899e7@news.west.earthlink.net:
> In a previous post Kris Krieger wrote...
>
> Kris:
>
> In my experience SIPS have pluses and minuses (just like every other
> thing).
>
> The pluses include: the house is much quieter compared to a
> conventionally framed house because all those studs aren't
> transmitting sound. The same is true for energy efficiency and for
> the same reason. SIPS house usually go up faster because in theory
> you are lifting the shell off a truck and setting it in place (in
> pieces of course).
>
> The minuses include "first cost". SIPS houses are more expensive to
> construct. Depending on your energy costs this can be made up by the
> energy savings.
>
> Does that help?
>
Yes and no - I figured the initial cost would be higher, but we wouldn't
build unless we knew we were going to remain in an area for more than 2
years. At which point, energy savings would start to kick in - but comfort
and quietude are also concerns. Also safety/protection re: both storms and
criminals.
So I'm googling around looking for price ranges per sq ft of various items
- and not having much luck.
The end point being, if I have a projected budget of, let's say $350K for
land and house; land costs say $50K, add $20K for some landscaping -
leaving $280K for house. Now, say I want storm resistance to 300mph (might
use integrated storm shutters rather than the special glazing); super
insulation (I hate drafts and I hate the idea of heating/cooling the
outdoors); a metal roof (also very well insulated); some passive energy
capability. Oh, and, if it has to be on a slab, let's add in an elevated
slab with reasonable anchoring.
That'd be the shell. I'm trying to roughly estimate the cost, then I'd of
course have to allow for the inside stuff, but those costs are fairly easy
to get hold of once the dimensions are estimated. I already know, for
example, what sort of cabinets I want, and the material (hickory probably),
so I can look those proces up at Lowe's and Home Depot - same for flooring
(hardwood, tile, etc.), and other such accoutrements. Anyhoo, I'm trying
to figure out how many sq ft of house I could get. At this point, as I'm
fooling around with designs and plans, I always end up between 2400 sq ft
and 2800 sq ft, but I can't estimate whether that size is at all feasible
given a high-quality shell.
Now, sure, locally, for $350K - $380K, we could have gotten a 4200 sq ft
place on a postage-stamp-sized lot next to a "lake" (more like a pond) in a
somewhat-local development, but it was one of those things where the walls
are that foamboard crap (sorry but IMO it is crap, you could puncture the
house with a golf club and IMO that equals crap), and there is way to much
froufrou that has a huge markup (crown molding for example), and so on.
Not to mention wasted space.
So the question I'm trying to answer is, if I culd build something and
wanted solid construction (I've been thinking poured concrete, as thick as
is reasonable, reinforced of course), how many sq ft could I get for the
same cost. Thing is, I don't see any sense in even thinking about going to
a professional if there is no way I can afford what I want...
- K.
| |
|
|
Don wrote:
> Most of the stuff you're talking about, if it can be found on the web at
> all, would be price dependent upon location.
> A 2x4 at Lowes here may cost less than at a Lowes in say Boston.
>
> I spent about an hour in Lowes last week jotting down prices on 2x4's,
> plywood, siding, windows, doors, etc.
> Then I drew a basic 24'x36' building, in much greater detail (I drew the
> individual studs, cripples, deadwood, etc.) than I would normally do for
> permit drawings, and then created a materials list.
> In AutoCAD I arranged my layers like this:
> 1 studs
> 1 bottom plates
> 1 top plates
> 1 firestops
> 1 rafters
> 1 ridge
> 1 barge
> 1 sheathing
> 1 siding
> 1 windows
> 1 doors, etc.
> Then it was a simple matter to turn on the appropriate layer, then draw a
> box around the items and look at the bottom to see the quantity.
> Then in Publisher I made the materials list and entered all the numbers and
> Lowes prices.
> This then showed me how much THIS building would costs RIGHT NOW, RIGHT
> HERE.
> Those numbers would be different where you live.
> Its not hard, if you understand whats below the skin on any given building,
> just a little time consuming.
Don, just curious. Have you ever used the National Cost Estimating
manuals (or whatever they are called now)? Years ago I had to do some
"estimating", and once you figured how to use the manuals it wasn't too
hard, especially since it dealt with systems, labor man hours, and
construction cost variables throughout the country. I haven't done
this in many years, and I now usually deal with a Cost Estimator (or
Quantity Surveyor outside the US). I'm sure some regulars here have
used one recently and I was wondering how it's accuracy stands up.
It just seems like someone has already done the work you described
above for you, at a cost of course. Maybe you should create your own
"manual" for your area. ;-)
| |
| Kris Krieger 2005-10-19, 3:21 pm |
| "Don" <one-if-by-land@concord.com> wrote in
news:gJu5f.16533$vw6.12782@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net:
> Most of the stuff you're talking about, if it can be found on the web
> at all, would be price dependent upon location.
> A 2x4 at Lowes here may cost less than at a Lowes in say Boston.
Oh! See, I didn't even realize that (duuh I guess...) Another good reason
to create a computer file - with a spreadsheet, if stuff is about 10% more
in one area realtive to another, that can be easily calculated as
columnX+(columnX*10%).
> I spent about an hour in Lowes last week jotting down prices on 2x4's,
> plywood, siding, windows, doors, etc.
> Then I drew a basic 24'x36' building, in much greater detail (I drew
> the individual studs, cripples, deadwood, etc.) than I would normally
> do for permit drawings, and then created a materials list.
> In AutoCAD I arranged my layers like this:
> 1 studs
> 1 bottom plates
> 1 top plates
> 1 firestops
> 1 rafters
> 1 ridge
> 1 barge
> 1 sheathing
> 1 siding
> 1 windows
> 1 doors, etc.
> Then it was a simple matter to turn on the appropriate layer, then
> draw a box around the items and look at the bottom to see the
> quantity. Then in Publisher I made the materials list and entered all
> the numbers and Lowes prices.
> This then showed me how much THIS building would costs RIGHT NOW,
> RIGHT HERE.
> Those numbers would be different where you live.
> Its not hard, if you understand whats below the skin on any given
> building, just a little time consuming.
Thanks for the procedural tip - that's a good idea and easy enough to do.
Actually, now that I think of it, it ought to be easy enough to do it up as
a webpage - show the diagram, have lines connecting a part with a humerical
box, and set the thing up to show a price for one locale or another as per
a visitor's choice. It ought to be doable via JavScript, and old JS at
that, setting up a var array...not that it's be completely accurate, but at
the very least, it could give someone a general idea of how much something
would cost. Eh, maybe I'll get the time to do it up and add to my own
website (after I finish getting up the revised site - the current one
stinks). I guess it just surprises me that nobody has done anything like
that (at least not that I've been able so far to find).
ANyhoo, I guess for things like the SIP or storm shutters, I'd just have to
call or write - still haven't found any pricing on-line. OTOH the one post
did mention that SIP is only about 10% more than traditional construction,
so that's a starting point to get a ballpark figure.
Anyway, thanks again for the tip -
- K.
>
>
> "Kris Krieger" <pteroDELETE_THISchromics@earthlinkDELETE.net> wrote in
> message news:Guu5f.2778$fc7.877@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
>
>
| |
| Kris Krieger 2005-10-19, 3:21 pm |
| "Cato" <cato_the_stoic@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:1129741809.322327.137640@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
>
> Don wrote:
>
> Don, just curious. Have you ever used the National Cost Estimating
> manuals (or whatever they are called now)? Years ago I had to do some
> "estimating", and once you figured how to use the manuals it wasn't
> too hard, especially since it dealt with systems, labor man hours, and
> construction cost variables throughout the country. I haven't done
> this in many years, and I now usually deal with a Cost Estimator (or
> Quantity Surveyor outside the US). I'm sure some regulars here have
> used one recently and I was wondering how it's accuracy stands up.
>
> It just seems like someone has already done the work you described
> above for you, at a cost of course. Maybe you should create your own
> "manual" for your area. ;-)
>
>
I used your terms with Google, came across this:
http://www.bsdsoftlink.com/costlinkae/ae.htm
it's software, costs $1195 but at least they have a free demo version to
DL and try.
Here is a book - I don't know whether it'd help any pro's tho', my guess it
that it might be more of a Basic Info book but I dunno:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/s...8928423-4238356
Hopefully of some help...
- K.
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Kris Krieger wrote:
> "Cato" <cato_the_stoic@hotmail.com> wrote in
> news:1129741809.322327.137640@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
>
>
> I used your terms with Google, came across this:
> http://www.bsdsoftlink.com/costlinkae/ae.htm
> it's software, costs $1195 but at least they have a free demo version to
> DL and try.
>
> Here is a book - I don't know whether it'd help any pro's tho', my guess it
> that it might be more of a Basic Info book but I dunno:
> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/s...8928423-4238356
>
>
> Hopefully of some help...
>
> - K.
Actually, I was thinking of these series of books.
http://tinyurl.com/8sbvj
I'm sure there are many out there, but I think this was the same
'model' I used many years ago. I have my original book from 1994
somewhere and I'll check and see if it was the same brand.
| |
| Kris Krieger 2005-10-19, 4:21 pm |
| "Cato" <cato_the_stoic@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:1129747878.737642.156470@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com:
>
> Kris Krieger wrote:
[ ... ]
[color=darkred]
>
> Actually, I was thinking of these series of books.
> http://tinyurl.com/8sbvj
The "National Building Cost Manual" is $18+change at Amazon.com ;) so I was
thinking of getting that. The other (more expensive) ones are probably
more professional/detailed.
> I'm sure there are many out there, but I think this was the same
> 'model' I used many years ago. I have my original book from 1994
> somewhere and I'll check and see if it was the same brand.
There were several on-line 'services' as well, but the books seem to be
more economical.
Tho' I still think the idea of a "quick'n'dirty estimator for those
conemplating having a custom home built" could be interesting ;)
| |
|
| > The "National Building Cost Manual" is $18+change at Amazon.com ;) so I was
> thinking of getting that. The other (more expensive) ones are probably
> more professional/detailed.
(snip)
> Tho' I still think the idea of a "quick'n'dirty estimator for those
> conemplating having a custom home built" could be interesting ;)
I'm sure there are some easier ones to use out there, just check
around, but I would be leary of ones that are too "easy". The ones I
mentioned above weren't as difficult to use as you might think. I
actually learned to use it while in Graduate School (gasp! that's
almost something you can use in the real world). I was able to bring
my 'skills' into play a couple of years out of school when I made the
'mistake' of mentioning my knowledge on doing some rough estimation to
my boss at the time. While my knowledge was limited, it was way above
anyone else I worked with at the time, including my boss. I wonder if
some architects get intimidated by estimating because it's usually
handed out by the Contractor, who try and make it sound like rocket
science so you can't question their prices. (hidden mark-up anyone?)
It's such a hugh portion of what we have to deal with to balance the
quality of the building versus that inevitable nasty acronym V.E.
(Value Engineering)
My foray into estimating was very brief, (thank God!), but at least I
have a remedial knowledge of where estimators get their numbers from.
Since I've been doing overseas work for a long time, I have to deal
with these Quantity Surveyors all the time, and they are almost always
Brits. (know matter which country the project is in). These guys live
for the numbers. lol
I just did a concept package for a project in Romania, and had one
these guys asking for a detailed Bill of Quantities so he can start
estimating the cost of the project. I just looked at him and said,
"Are you serious"? Why don't you call me back in about a month or two
when we get this frickin building designed with some level of detail
and material palette. This was the first preliminary concept
presentation with rough 3D and sketches. We were still developing
multiple schemes at the time. "jesus dude, why don't ya' tap the brake
for a second!" I think he was just excited because he was seeing lots
of "beans" floating before his eyes ready to be counted.
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|
| "Cato"> wrote
> Don wrote:
>
> Don, just curious. Have you ever used the National Cost Estimating
> manuals (or whatever they are called now)?
No.
Years ago I had to do some
> "estimating", and once you figured how to use the manuals it wasn't too
> hard, especially since it dealt with systems, labor man hours, and
> construction cost variables throughout the country. I haven't done
> this in many years, and I now usually deal with a Cost Estimator (or
> Quantity Surveyor outside the US). I'm sure some regulars here have
> used one recently and I was wondering how it's accuracy stands up.
>
> It just seems like someone has already done the work you described
> above for you, at a cost of course. Maybe you should create your own
> "manual" for your area. ;-)
The thing is, right now the pricing for building materials around here is
extremely flux, they're different everyday.
Somedays, for example, it is impossible to get concrete, unless you want to
use the 80# bags of Sackrete.
The big suppliers like Rinkers, Krehling, etc., just don't have the stuff.
They tell me its because of Katrina.
*I'm gonna build a 24'x36' building (shell) by myself, with my own 2 hands,
and I wanted to know exactly what the materials cost, so I did what I
described.*
Now that I have that *template* if you will, I can *scale it* up or down and
know its approximate cost. Today. Tomorrow the price of plywood may rise
again.
Here's how bad its getting here.
The regular builders are NOT trying to sell homes before they are built.
Read that sentence again.
Usually, a builder wants to get a home under contract as soon as possible.
But now a days, it takes almost a year to build a house and the cost of a
$200k home can increase $30-50k during that year.
So the builders are building their specs but not putting a sign in the yard
til 30 days before completion.
At that point they have a pretty good grasp of what their costs are and can
price the home accordingly.
30 days before completion also allows the potential buyers the option of
choosing carpet and tile colors so they can feel like the home is *theirs*.
If this stuff keeps up I won't be surprised if builders start selling their
models as they have become albatrosses.
I know of houses that *sell* 6 times during the period of construction.
Thats right.
Someone will contract for a new home, then in 2 months sell that contract to
someone else at profit.
The new owner than waits 2 months and sells it at profit, and on and on.
My in-laws home sold in 1 week (back in June 05') for 3 times the original
price.
I'm putting mine on the market next week (depending on this hurricane
thing), we should be able to double our money.
Or, depending on the hurricane thing, collect a check from the insurance.
:-(
**Designing a 24x36 shell is not difficult under normal circumstances.
But because I will be very rural I will have to build my building myself.
The trick in this one is to design it so it can be built by one person.
(can you build a 36'x8' frame wall on the floor and then stand it upright?)
So instead of building such a long wall that I won't be able to stand up I
will build it in 12' sections and stand them up individually and then nail a
2nd top plate on the whole thing to tighten it all up.
Same way with the roof system, I have designed it to where I can install the
rafters myself.
Think about it, most homes today are designed to be built by fleets of
workers.
I'm going against that grain.
| |
|
| > **Designing a 24x36 shell is not difficult under normal circumstances.
> But because I will be very rural I will have to build my building myself.
> The trick in this one is to design it so it can be built by one person.
> (can you build a 36'x8' frame wall on the floor and then stand it upright?)
> So instead of building such a long wall that I won't be able to stand up I
> will build it in 12' sections and stand them up individually and then nail a
> 2nd top plate on the whole thing to tighten it all up.
> Same way with the roof system, I have designed it to where I can install the
> rafters myself.
> Think about it, most homes today are designed to be built by fleets of
> workers.
> I'm going against that grain.
Don, we wouldn't expect anything else. ;-)
I do appreciate your effort to get a microcosm of the cost for your
particular area, although I think you're just looking for an excuse to
browse the aisles at your fav DIY store. LOL Are you factoring your
costs at the retail purchase prices, or based upon Contractor prices
based on bulk purchase?
Maybe you can create your own "Hurricane Factor" for the cost of
building based on the limited building resources.
The estimating books I mentioned earlier do have a cost factor
depending upon what part of the country your building in. For example,
Dallas had a factor of around .86 whereas New York City was around 1.3.
This is from my fuzzy memory, so I wonder if those numbers have
changed much. BTW, I do remember Alaska having the highest ratio
(makes sense), it was somewhere around 1.33, I think. I'm just curious
if they have built into it a scondary factor to take into account
things like natural disasters, and the increased cost associated with
rebuilding.
*If your building is in _________ just hit by a Cat 4, please use the
added factor of 1.9 in all your calculations for adjusted materials and
price gouging costs.
| |
|
| "Cato"> wrote
> I do appreciate your effort to get a microcosm of the cost for your
> particular area, although I think you're just looking for an excuse to
> browse the aisles at your fav DIY store.
Ha!
My brother and I refer to the Tool Section as the Toy Section. ;-)
LOL Are you factoring your
> costs at the retail purchase prices, or based upon Contractor prices
> based on bulk purchase?
Probably retail.
I can go pick up and deliver the items as I need them, in my truck.
As I mentioned, this is VERY rural, no delivery trucks will go there.
This isn't in Florida.
> Maybe you can create your own "Hurricane Factor" for the cost of
> building based on the limited building resources.
Well, the mindset for building the new building will be very similar to that
of designing in S Florida.
> The estimating books I mentioned earlier do have a cost factor
> depending upon what part of the country your building in. For example,
> Dallas had a factor of around .86 whereas New York City was around 1.3.
> This is from my fuzzy memory, so I wonder if those numbers have
> changed much. BTW, I do remember Alaska having the highest ratio
> (makes sense), it was somewhere around 1.33, I think. I'm just curious
> if they have built into it a scondary factor to take into account
> things like natural disasters, and the increased cost associated with
> rebuilding.
There's a certain *looseness* associated with the standard builder format
for pricing a building that takes into consideration the reduced costs by
buying in bulk and the associated waste of doing that. 2 bunks of 2x4's =
288 sticks but the project may only require 200, what do you do with the
leftovers?
(cut em up and nail em in as extra firestops, bracing and deadwood...or burn
em as firewood when it gets cold?)
By working on my building, one on one, I expect to eliminate most of the
waste.
Buy what I need and use what I buy.
> *If your building is in _________ just hit by a Cat 4, please use the
> added factor of 1.9 in all your calculations for adjusted materials and
> price gouging costs.
Cat 4 would be 1.9, Cat 5 would be 3.3. :-)
| |
|
| This was the link I would send you too as well.
I have used these panels for 6 houses in the last 2 years in central Texas.
Many times we use these for roofs only. We have "some" cold weather here,
but not much.
For us it's the two billion degree attics that cost so much.
Clients like it because they have a "conditioned space in the attic.
The attic also has lots more usable storage space if you put down decking.
for TONS of storage in the attic that is not subjected to horrific
temperatures.
AC contractor like it because the duct is in conditioned space, and the
units don't have
to work so hard.
I have talked to 4 of the 6 clients and they are loving the houses so far. I
have not energy stats for you,
but when I build my retirement home, I will certainly use SIPS roof.
jojo
"Don" <one-if-by-land@concord.com> wrote in message
news:Z5_4f.15935$vw6.100@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> Thanks Bob.
>
> "Bob Morrison" <bob@ _remove_rlmorrisonengr.com> wrote in message
> news:MPG.1dbd8b54bee9f36f9899e4@news.west.earthlink.net...
>
>
>
| |
| orange tree 2005-10-25, 2:21 am |
| jojo wrote:
[color=darkred]
> This was the link I would send you too as well.
> I have used these panels for 6 houses in the last 2 years in central
> Texas. Many times we use these for roofs only. We have "some" cold weather
> here, but not much.
> For us it's the two billion degree attics that cost so much.
>
> Clients like it because they have a "conditioned space in the attic.
> The attic also has lots more usable storage space if you put down decking.
> for TONS of storage in the attic that is not subjected to horrific
> temperatures.
> AC contractor like it because the duct is in conditioned space, and the
> units don't have
> to work so hard.
>
> I have talked to 4 of the 6 clients and they are loving the houses so far.
> I have not energy stats for you,
> but when I build my retirement home, I will certainly use SIPS roof.
>
> jojo
>
>
>
>
>
> "Don" <one-if-by-land@concord.com> wrote in message
> news:Z5_4f.15935$vw6.100@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
ask a roofer if that is a good idea
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|
"orange tree" <see@site.com> wrote in message
news:rti7f.19915$Bf7.3074@tornado.texas.rr.com...
> jojo wrote:
>
weather[color=darkred]
decking.[color=darkred]
far.[color=darkred]
rarely[color=darkred]
>
> ask a roofer if that is a good idea
>
???
Share.....
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