|
Home > Archive > Architecture > October 2005 > How do you feel about this?
You are viewing an archived Text-only version of the thread.
To view this thread in it's original format and/or if you want to reply to
this thread please [click here]
| Author |
How do you feel about this?
|
|
|
| My boss wants us to keep up with the "cutting edge" of residential
architecture.
his point is that we (the intern architects) should attend every home show,
parade of homes, AutoCAD club meeting, you get my drift.
He thinks we should do all of this on our own time and money.
Now, since we never get to design a project here, only draft, I think this
should
be treated as OJT....what about you?
I'm in a pissy mood today and want to know if my head is on straight or
what?
| |
|
| "jojo"> wrote
> My boss wants us to keep up with the "cutting edge" of residential
> architecture.
>
> his point is that we (the intern architects) should attend every home
> show,
> parade of homes, AutoCAD club meeting, you get my drift.
> He thinks we should do all of this on our own time and money.
>
> Now, since we never get to design a project here, only draft, I think this
> should
> be treated as OJT....what about you?
>
> I'm in a pissy mood today and want to know if my head is on straight or
> what?
*!*!* DangeR ~ DangeR, Will Robinson *!*!*
************************************
Sounds to me that if you had more experience, more self confidence and a
HUGE pair of ballz you'd tell your boss where to step off in a NY minute and
instantly become his competition. Then it would be HIM attending all them
meetings, trying to keep up with the market.
"JoJo was a man that thought he was a woman, so he beat his boss's
XXX.......
| |
|
| > Now, since we never get to design a project here, only draft, I think this
> should be treated as OJT....what about you?
<hostile>
Your boss gives you good advice that you failed to think of on your own and
should you bother to take his advice it won't actually benefit him any and
you want him to pay for it?
</hostile>
| |
| 3D Peruna 2005-10-21, 5:21 pm |
|
"jojo" <cgv_2000*yourhat*@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:au96f.4995$BZ5.3549@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...
> My boss wants us to keep up with the "cutting edge" of residential
> architecture.
You have a problem with this?
>
> his point is that we (the intern architects) should attend every home
> show,
> parade of homes, AutoCAD club meeting, you get my drift.
> He thinks we should do all of this on our own time and money.
Well...there are a couple of ways of looking at this. The first one, is
that if I'm going to be an architect (and I'm making an assumption from your
post here) I would want to learn all I can. Therefore, I'd be doing those
things on my own time anyway. In fact, that is exactly what I did...
The other way is that you think your boss should pay for it because you
think its to his benefit (see gruhn's post). It might very well be to his
benefit to have you better "trained." So... if you don't like it, don't do
it. If he doesn't like your attitude he may fire you. He may give you more
crap work. Hey may be looking and thinking you're a slacker because you do
none of these things and have no self motivation. You're just a "drafter,"
right?
> Now, since we never get to design a project here, only draft, I think this
> should
> be treated as OJT....what about you?
Sure...it can be treated as such.
>
> I'm in a pissy mood today and want to know if my head is on straight or
> what?
No...you're head is screwed up. First, the guy doesn't owe you anything
except for what you've agreed to do. Second, if you don't like it, get
another job...or better yet, do what it takes to be your own boss. It's up
to you... but then again, you're just a drafter.
| |
|
| "3D Peruna"> wrote
>... but then again, you're just a drafter.
Make that, LOWLY drafter.
| |
| Ken S. Tucker 2005-10-21, 7:21 pm |
|
Don wrote:
> "3D Peruna"> wrote
>
> Make that, LOWLY drafter.
130 db, even if wifey complained your hearing is
shot Don you couldn't hear her.
hmmm, sounds (pun) like a good investment.
For EARCO
Ken
Ps: Did I hear right to post hear?
| |
|
| "Ken S. Tucker"> wrote
> Don wrote:
>
> 130 db, even if wifey complained your hearing is
> shot Don you couldn't hear her.
One of the undisclosed side benefits of being in the Army.
Prolonged exposure to gunfire and explosions prevents you from hearing high
pitched sounds emanating from your wifes direction 20 years later. :-)
BTW:
Q: Know why women have 2 sets of *lips*?
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
A: So they can piss and moan at the same time.
| |
| Ken S. Tucker 2005-10-22, 8:21 pm |
|
Don wrote:
> "Ken S. Tucker"> wrote
>
> One of the undisclosed side benefits of being in the Army.
> Prolonged exposure to gunfire and explosions prevents you from hearing high
> pitched sounds emanating from your wifes direction 20 years later. :-)
LOL, I encouraged my wife to talk to me and then
subsequently developed a notch/trivia filter.
> BTW:
> Q: Know why women have 2 sets of *lips*?
> A: So they can piss and moan at the same time.
And why does everybody have 4 cheeks, do I want
to know?
Do ya have "ringing in the ears", tinninitius or
something?
Ken
| |
|
| "Ken S. Tucker"> wrote
> And why does everybody have 4 cheeks, do I want
> to know?
I wanna know!
(gives you 2 more to turn?)
> Do ya have "ringing in the ears", tinninitius or
> something?
You know how a sine wave resembles a hacksaw blade with pointy teefs?
My ears cut the tops off the teefz, I have to increase the treble when I
listen to toonz.
Last year when we were watching the Great Horned Owls teach their 2 brand
new kids about sound recognition from various trees around here my wife
would hear one thing but I would hear another. I guess a corallary would be
draping a heavy blanket over a speaker, sort of muffles the sound.
Eventually I'll be completely deaf I suppose. My dad went deay in his early
40's. He said he would prefer to be blind than to be deaf. As a non-blind
and not deaf yet person I can't agree with that. If I became blind I'd just
as soon be dead, I think.
| |
|
| > I wanna know!
> (gives you 2 more to turn?)
"To everything, turn turn turn"
| |
| Ken S. Tucker 2005-10-23, 6:21 pm |
|
Don wrote:
> "Ken S. Tucker"> wrote
>
> I wanna know!
> (gives you 2 more to turn?)
>
>
> You know how a sine wave resembles a hacksaw blade with pointy teefs?
> My ears cut the tops off the teefz, I have to increase the treble when I
> listen to toonz.
> Last year when we were watching the Great Horned Owls teach their 2 brand
> new kids about sound recognition from various trees around here my wife
> would hear one thing but I would hear another. I guess a corallary would be
> draping a heavy blanket over a speaker, sort of muffles the sound.
> Eventually I'll be completely deaf I suppose. My dad went deay in his early
> 40's. He said he would prefer to be blind than to be deaf. As a non-blind
> and not deaf yet person I can't agree with that. If I became blind I'd just
> as soon be dead, I think.
We designed an Exterior Audio Receiver (EAR) for EARco,
that maxs at 4khz for natural sounds. They're reorganizing
their web-site right now, and I'll post it when they're
done and hopefully send you one for fun.
As to choosing between being deaf or blind, consider
having sex. Do you want to see her or hear her?
Regards
Ken
| |
|
| "Ken S. Tucker"> wrote
> As to choosing between being deaf or blind, consider
> having sex. Do you want to see her or hear her?
Well, if the lights are out and the toonz are loud.......
| |
| 3D Peruna 2005-10-24, 12:21 am |
| Ken S. Tucker wrote:
[color=darkred]
> Don wrote:
>
Do you know why your turds are tapered?
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
So you butt cheeks don't slam shut when you poop.
| |
|
| yeah, what a sorry post.
I really do try to keep up, the cost of sitter and entrance fees was
getting me down last week. Hence the stupid post.
I am actually a very hard working individual with lots of responsibility and
I am generally very appreciated by my employer.
I also usually work in access of 60 hours a week. That is a lot of time
for a salaried employee (with a young son) I guess I just thought it would
be a nice perk,
and still do, but after some rest this weekend and all of your helpful
comments and
judgments, I also see that I am being totally unreasonable.
For those how suggest I leave my job.....
There are LOTS of aspects of my job that I do like. MY boss happens to be
very protective about
design and only HE is allowed to do so. I know someday I will have to go
elsewhere to finish my IDP
but that is not now. My son is not healthy and I cannot risk losing my
insurance.
Some of you think I should "get out or quit complaining" but I thinks it's
ok to complain occasionally.
In the end My boss has agreed to let me go during my lunch hour, extending
it as necessary, and take home more
work over the weekend. This is a great compromise, and I can work at home
while my son does homework
over the weekend, and not have to pay a sitter.
I know I should not care what any of you think, but I find it painful that
many of you took time out to spit on a
lowly draftsman. I do not have the experience yet to go out on my own. I am
responsible for much
more that drafting in my office, and have been defined as "invaluable" by my
boss, who depends on me a lot.
I'm just not allowed to present designs. Neither are the 5 draftsman who I
manage.
anyway, thanks for straightening my head. It really was just a suck XXX day.
jo
"jojo" <cgv_2000*yourhat*@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:au96f.4995$BZ5.3549@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...
> My boss wants us to keep up with the "cutting edge" of residential
> architecture.
>
> his point is that we (the intern architects) should attend every home
show,
> parade of homes, AutoCAD club meeting, you get my drift.
> He thinks we should do all of this on our own time and money.
>
> Now, since we never get to design a project here, only draft, I think this
> should
> be treated as OJT....what about you?
>
> I'm in a pissy mood today and want to know if my head is on straight or
> what?
>
>
>
>
| |
|
| thanks don.
"Don" <one-if-by-land@concord.com> wrote in message
news:T3d6f.17988$QE1.16678@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> "3D Peruna"> wrote
>
> Make that, LOWLY drafter.
>
>
>
| |
| 3D Peruna 2005-10-24, 2:21 pm |
| jojo...
You sort of opened yourself up again in your response. If you are
invaluable to your employer, then you're not getting paid enough. He sees
you as a cash cow...you work hard for not enough pay and he likes that.
Have some backbone. Sit down with him and say "Look, you've told me I'm an
important part of this firm. I appreciate that. I'm happy you're happy
with my work. But I've got some concerns. First, I'm working towards
licensure. I can't do that without a broad range of experience. I need to
have opportunities to get this experience here, or eventually, I'll have to
go elsewhere to get it. Second, I'm salaried and working 60+ hours a week.
When I was hired, I took the job for X/year, which works out to Y/hour for
40 hours. Now, I'm working 60 hours and making Z/hour. Z/hour isn't
enough. I really need to be closer to Y/hour." IF you're worth what you
seem to think your boss thinks you're worth, then you'll have a productive
conversation.
Example: I knew an architect who had stayed at the same firm and same job
from the day he graduated from school. The IDP and NCARB licensing wasn't a
big deal then, so getting is license wasn't tough. But he never went to his
bosses and asked for different tasks, more money or anything. He sat in his
cubicle and designed hospital labs (just the rooms), school labs (just the
rooms) and was board to death and underpaid. His wife whined about the
terrible life of an architect and how you'll never have any money. It was
his own darn fault....
How do I know this? Because I'm working for myself making a decent living
doing interesting stuff, including having time to waste on Usenet. It's
your life. You control it. If you don't, don't complain.
I think it was they complaining that got to most of us...because most of us
here are the type that have taken control of our lives.
| |
| Kris Krieger 2005-10-24, 2:21 pm |
| "Ken S. Tucker" <dynamics@vianet.on.ca> wrote in
news:1130019544.373152.199310@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
>
> And why does everybody have 4 cheeks, do I want
> to know?
> Do ya have "ringing in the ears", tinninitius or
> something?
> Ken
>
So you can smile whether standing up or lying down ;)
| |
| Kris Krieger 2005-10-24, 2:21 pm |
| "3D Peruna" <w!h#a$r%o^l&d@w!e#i$r%d&n*e(s)s.com> wrote in
news:6nb6f.13940$E17.10774@fe03.lga:
>
> "jojo" <cgv_2000*yourhat*@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:au96f.4995$BZ5.3549@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...
>
> You have a problem with this?
>
>
> Well...there are a couple of ways of looking at this. The first one,
> is that if I'm going to be an architect (and I'm making an assumption
> from your post here) I would want to learn all I can. Therefore, I'd
> be doing those things on my own time anyway. In fact, that is exactly
> what I did...
FWLIW - heck, I'm just a layman and a renter, but I enjoy going to those
things, and catching the "what's new" segments on tv, and so on, just
because some of the stuff is really neat. I also really like getting
brochures, cutting out pics, and getting all sorts of references - my new
computer will be here in a couple days, and I'll be able to use all the
clippings and brocuyres as reference material for modeling - and, as of
yet, I don't even get paid to do this modeling; I do it because I love it,
and am excited about it, and want to continue improving as long as I can -
age is no barrier to enthusiasm and the enjoyment of discovery ;) .
But even when working for pay, one *still* has to continue being a life-
long learner, otherwise one becomes "Windows3.1 in the XP era". When a
company decides to lay people off, the first ones to go are the people who
haven't learned much of anything new since they were hired (and tend to be
the clock-watchers). So, if nothing else, life-long learning is a survival
strategy. It's also a health strategy - it's been shown that people who
are constantly learning new things as they age (as opposed to sitting
aorund being bored) are significantly less likely to suffer from things
like Alzheimer's and depression, and their accompanying health problems.
Also, if attendance at admission-fee-required events is required by one's
job, wouldn't the associated costs be tax-deductable...? Personally, I'd
love to be able to attend such things and take a deduction for it <g!>
I dunno about AutoCAD clubs, tho'; it'd depend upon the members and the
degree to which actual teaching/learning and info-sharing does or doesn't
occur. There are also forums (?fora?) on-line for pretty much
anything/everything, so those are often interesting and very useful. The
folks in forums tend to be helpful, from what I've seen.
> The other way is that you think your boss should pay for it because
> you think its to his benefit (see gruhn's post). It might very well
> be to his benefit to have you better "trained." So... if you don't
> like it, don't do it. If he doesn't like your attitude he may fire
> you. He may give you more crap work. Hey may be looking and thinking
> you're a slacker because you do none of these things and have no self
> motivation. You're just a "drafter," right?
That's a good point, Gruhn.
Grumblers/complainers in *any* field of endeavor end up "shooting
themselves in the foot" so to speak.
>
> Sure...it can be treated as such.
>
>
> No...you're head is screwed up. First, the guy doesn't owe you
> anything except for what you've agreed to do. Second, if you don't
> like it, get another job...or better yet, do what it takes to be your
> own boss. It's up to you... but then again, you're just a drafter.
And the boss' request might also be a test. Maybe he is actually trying to
weed out those who lack enthusiasm - that's a scenario I've certainly seen
more than once. Maybe he's trying to "separate the men from the boys" as
the old saw goes - separate the architect-drafters from the Architects.
I'd think this woule be especially true in a field where mentoring is an
important part of learning and career development. At the least, Mentoring
takes time and energy, and it'd make sense for a potential Mentor to drop
little "tests" on people to see who would benefit most from the process. I
know I would - it's not even a question of ability as much as one of
application. Someone with innate ability, who doesn't exercise and use and
develop it, is not as good a candidate as is someone who might not have
that same level of innate ability but who does have a real love of the
field, and has enthusiasm for learning and applying as much as possible.
"One never knows, do one...?"
Again, tho' I'd suggest that the OP check into the possibility of taking
tax deductions for Continuing Education. I don't know the rules but the
info *is* out there.
| |
|
| > But even when working for pay, one *still* has to continue being a life-
> long learner,
The AIA requires it.
<insert standard weeks long AIA argument here.>
Yes.
> otherwise one becomes "Windows3.1 in the XP era"
Just last night my roomie said to me "Why didn't you do it such and such a
way?" And I said "Because I don't think they had that on 3.1." Lucky for me
I was relating a story from 1994 not yesterday.> I dunno about AutoCAD
clubs, tho'; it'd depend upon the members and the
The club around here meets at like 11am on Wednesday. Sorry, gotta work.
> And the boss' request might also be a test
Bleah.
Not that it mightn't be, just "bleah."
| |
| P Fritz 2005-10-24, 4:21 pm |
|
"gruhn" <gruhn@deletehwb.com> wrote in message
news:5L97f.54$8G3.9497@news.uswest.net...
>
> The AIA requires it.
>
> <insert standard weeks long AIA argument here.>
I'll bite..........the AIA is a useless P.C. organization that does little
for its members.....they promote membership in their organization as some
sort of extra credential, when the only credential is paying there
membership fee.
There "learning credtis" are little more than a scam to create a cottage
industry of classes to earn those units.
>
> Yes.
>
>
> Just last night my roomie said to me "Why didn't you do it such and such a
> way?" And I said "Because I don't think they had that on 3.1." Lucky for
me
> I was relating a story from 1994 not yesterday.> I dunno about AutoCAD
> clubs, tho'; it'd depend upon the members and the
>
> The club around here meets at like 11am on Wednesday. Sorry, gotta work.
>
>
> Bleah.
>
> Not that it mightn't be, just "bleah."
>
>
| |
| 3D Peruna 2005-10-24, 7:21 pm |
|
"P Fritz" <paulfritzNOSPAMFORME@voyager.net> wrote in message
news:11lqc2os4c4me7f@corp.supernews.com...
>
> "gruhn" <gruhn@deletehwb.com> wrote in message
> news:5L97f.54$8G3.9497@news.uswest.net...
>
> I'll bite..........the AIA is a useless P.C. organization that does little
> for its members.....they promote membership in their organization as some
> sort of extra credential, when the only credential is paying there
> membership fee.
>
> There "learning credtis" are little more than a scam to create a cottage
> industry of classes to earn those units.
Unfortunately, they've convinced many state boards that these "learning
credits" are "important."
| |
| Edgar 2005-10-25, 12:21 pm |
| 3D Peruna wrote:
> "P Fritz" <paulfritzNOSPAMFORME@voyager.net> wrote in message
> news:11lqc2os4c4me7f@corp.supernews.com...
>
>
>
> Unfortunately, they've convinced many state boards that these "learning
> credits" are "important."
>
>
I've sat through a few learning credit presentations and learned a lot
of new stuff. I didn't earn credits, but I'm sure the AIA sets some
standards for what to teach. Otherwise I would probably be sitting
through a "my product is better than their product" type presentation.
At the end they of course had their product to push, but before all that
they went through the basics (more than basics really, more like the
general understanding of that part of the building envelope). I'm not
saying it can't be done without the AIA, and I'm not even sure if they
DO set the standards, so take that as you will.
--
Edgar
| |
| 3D Peruna 2005-10-25, 2:21 pm |
|
"Edgar" <ecamacho4@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:435e4a90$0$41139$14726298@news.sunsite.dk...
> 3D Peruna wrote:
>
> I've sat through a few learning credit presentations and learned a lot of
> new stuff. I didn't earn credits, but I'm sure the AIA sets some
> standards for what to teach. Otherwise I would probably be sitting
> through a "my product is better than their product" type presentation. At
> the end they of course had their product to push, but before all that they
> went through the basics (more than basics really, more like the general
> understanding of that part of the building envelope). I'm not saying it
> can't be done without the AIA, and I'm not even sure if they DO set the
> standards, so take that as you will.
You miss the point...
I don't think anyone thinks that not learning new stuff isn't important.
But has architecture become "better" since mandatory CE classes? Look
around you. I would think not. Requiring the classes does little, except
create the cottage industry to create the classes.
But it's not all bad...the guys who come around and do them usually bring
lunch...and we'll take that "free" lunch.
| |
|
|
>
> You miss the point...
>
> I don't think anyone thinks that not learning new stuff isn't important.
> But has architecture become "better" since mandatory CE classes? Look
> around you. I would think not. Requiring the classes does little, except
> create the cottage industry to create the classes.
>
> But it's not all bad...the guys who come around and do them usually bring
> lunch...and we'll take that "free" lunch.
We all know there is no such thing as a "free lunch" with these
classes. Sometimes the cost is just too damn high with some of them.
;-)
| |
| 3D Peruna 2005-10-25, 5:21 pm |
|
"Cato" <cato_the_stoic@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1130259188.730107.97120@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
>
> We all know there is no such thing as a "free lunch" with these
> classes. Sometimes the cost is just too damn high with some of them.
> ;-)
>
Can you say "pre-mixed mortar?" }-|
| |
|
|
3D Peruna (s) wrote:
> "Cato" <cato_the_stoic@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1130259188.730107.97120@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> Can you say "pre-mixed mortar?" }-|
I hope that sandwich at least came with a bag of chips and a pickle.
Maybe even a cookie, it's the least they could do. LOL
| |
| 3D Peruna 2005-10-25, 6:21 pm |
|
"Cato" <cato_the_stoic@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1130270736.187176.179590@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> 3D Peruna (s) wrote:
>
> I hope that sandwich at least came with a bag of chips and a pickle.
> Maybe even a cookie, it's the least they could do. LOL
Bag of chips, some water and a cookie. No pickle, but that's OK.
| |
|
| > Re: How do you feel about this?
Clumsily. With my eyes closed. Wearing mittens.
| |
|
| 3D Peruna wrote:
> "Edgar" <ecamacho4@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:435e4a90$0$41139$14726298@news.sunsite.dk...
>
>
>
> You miss the point...
>
> I don't think anyone thinks that not learning new stuff isn't important.
> But has architecture become "better" since mandatory CE classes? Look
> around you. I would think not. Requiring the classes does little, except
> create the cottage industry to create the classes.
>
> But it's not all bad...the guys who come around and do them usually bring
> lunch...and we'll take that "free" lunch.
>
>
Yeah I understood your point, my point was if they have a set of
standards to follow, that makes the presentations that much better,
maybe there is something to it. As far as I know, its not so much of an
industry, as it is a way to promote your product (at least for the free
lunch presentations). As for architecutre becoming better because of
it, no it probably hasn't, but there are several factors to account for
that.
I don't disagree with you, I just think there might be some good to it.
Like I said, it might not even be because of AIA.
--
Edgar
| |
| Adam Weiss 2005-10-26, 1:21 am |
| jojo wrote:
> My boss wants us to keep up with the "cutting edge" of residential
> architecture.
>
> his point is that we (the intern architects) should attend every home show,
> parade of homes, AutoCAD club meeting, you get my drift.
> He thinks we should do all of this on our own time and money.
>
> Now, since we never get to design a project here, only draft, I think this
> should
> be treated as OJT....what about you?
>
> I'm in a pissy mood today and want to know if my head is on straight or
> what?
>
>
>
>
Your bosses suggestion that you do architecture outside the office is
less problematic to me than what you said: "we... only draft." He's
right when he suggests you go out and enjoy architecture in your off
time. But a good boss won't chain you to your computer and make you
draft day in-day out. They'll give you a chance to help put together
proposals for new projects, aid in early schematic design, do
presentations, go out on site visits and surveys, help in construction
administration and punch lists. Even when they do give you a drafting
task, a good boss will take the opportunity to teach you things like
constructibility, accessibility, building codes, egress.... that sort of
thing.
| |
|
| "jojo"> wrote
> I also usually work in access of 60 hours a week. That is a lot of time
> for a salaried employee (with a young son)
You're trying to link to unrelated things, the amount of time in achieving
your life goals, and your young son.
That is a stumbling block for you.
> For those how suggest I leave my job.....
> There are LOTS of aspects of my job that I do like. MY boss happens to be
> very protective about
> design and only HE is allowed to do so. I know someday I will have to go
> elsewhere to finish my IDP
> but that is not now. My son is not healthy and I cannot risk losing my
> insurance.
Insurance is relatively cheap, compared to what you're paying by staying at
a job that will never get you where you ultimately want to be.
This is the 2nd time in this post that you have made excuses for not being
successful and happy in your employ.
A pattern is developing.
> Some of you think I should "get out or quit complaining" but I thinks it's
> ok to complain occasionally.
Do you want to hear people complain?
Then why do you assume other folks want to hear yours?
> In the end My boss has agreed to let me go during my lunch hour, extending
> it as necessary, and take home more
*Let me*????
You've got to be shitting me.
Now THAT's pathetic.
I eat when I want and I do what I want.
> work over the weekend. This is a great compromise, and I can work at home
> while my son does homework
> over the weekend, and not have to pay a sitter.
Just think, rather than babysitting your kid on the weekends and earning a
paltry sum from your boss you could be doing REAL work for REAL clients
while paving your way into an independent future.
> I know I should not care what any of you think, but I find it painful that
> many of you took time out to spit on a
> lowly draftsman.
That was me, that mentioned *lowly*
Its a joke around these parts.
People like you assume that your position is unworthy, then there are people
like Michael (LS) and I that have taken Drafting to the next level and have
carved out an existence for ourselves. There are primarily 2 reasons why
Mike and I are NOT architects. 1) We would have to go back to school for
years. 2) We are already successful and are making good money and enjoy what
we are doing.
Can't speak for Mike but for myself, I spent the time and effort in the
early years to get to where I am.
I didn't complain (too loudly) worked over 100 hours a week to get done what
needed to get done.
Worked a full time job as a lowly drafter WHILE working on my own projects
during the evenings and weekends.
Babysat a young son while all of this was going on.
> I do not have the experience yet to go out on my own.
No one does. duh.
You will NEVER have that experience while you spend your days with an
employer, making him rich.
I am
> responsible for much
> more that drafting in my office, and have been defined as "invaluable" by
> my
> boss, who depends on me a lot.
YAWN
Employers have all sorts of tools at their disposal to make employees feel
*needed* and invaluable.
Just think, this coming Friday your boss could hand you a check and walking
papers and your life would be instantly in chaos.
Thats called 'putting ones financial eggs in one basket, and letting someone
else hold it'.
Myself and Michael, lowly drafters that we are, could lose an *employer* or
2 or 3 and NOT suffer much damage at all.
The more clients you have the less negative impact if one of them takes it
down the road.
> I'm just not allowed to present designs. Neither are the 5 draftsman who I
> manage.
>
> anyway, thanks for straightening my head. It really was just a suck XXX
> day.
| |
|
| How do you make a living designing and drafting? Who seals your drawings?
There is no governing body here (acb's or city's) that will accept drawings
that are not sealed. None here have accepted the AIBD seal either. (although
many are working on this)
I have designed several homes myself "on the side" in the last 5 years, but
about 2 years ago there were
"issues" concerning architects who sealed drawings and did not really review
them well. (this had nothing to
do with My architects or with MY work) The backlash is that no one wants the
be responsible for something
they did not actually design. Now it is hard to get anyone to seal a set,
and if they do, it's a hefty fee.
Don, a lot of people work for someone else. I'm not a real "people person"
(that translates to shy) and would not be great at drumming
up new business. I am a very strong draftsman. If someone hands me a design,
vague or detailed, I can make it a reality.
I know when to work together to find the answer and when to find the answers
on my own. I don't make code mistakes,
and I don't draw things that fall down. I also understand old school
drafting techniques and standards and how to
create a readable and esthetically pleasing set of drawings that trades,
builders and clients can read and understand.
I am not lazy. But, I'm not bold enough to be self supporting either, at
least not yet.
There are many companies that require a person to clock in at certain times,
and take their breaks and lunches at
certain times. There are many firms in my area (central Texas) that have a
"Japanese" work ethic, you don't leave till after the boss leaves.
Yes, my boss could hand me my paycheck and walking papers tomorrow, and I
would be at a lose.
and yes, as a mom with a young child, much more of my after hours activity
involves hay rides, pumpkin patches and Halloween costumes than
trade shows and homes tours. It is MUCH better for me to working these
things in on a weekday when they are less crowded and well frankly,
don't cut so deeply into my personal time.
There are aspects of my job that I like (and that I don't like).
Of course I want to keep up with the latest and greatest! But there are some
functions I don't care to attend or don't have time to attend and
if my boss wants to me attend, he can pay for it in either time or money.
I think we have beat this subject to death. Asked and answered (and
analyzed).
jojo
"Don" <one-if-by-land@concord.com> wrote in message
news:mJL7f.424$2y.301@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> "jojo"> wrote
>
> You're trying to link to unrelated things, the amount of time in achieving
> your life goals, and your young son.
> That is a stumbling block for you.
>
be[color=darkred]
>
> Insurance is relatively cheap, compared to what you're paying by staying
at
> a job that will never get you where you ultimately want to be.
> This is the 2nd time in this post that you have made excuses for not being
> successful and happy in your employ.
> A pattern is developing.
>
it's[color=darkred]
>
> Do you want to hear people complain?
> Then why do you assume other folks want to hear yours?
>
extending[color=darkred]
>
> *Let me*????
> You've got to be shitting me.
> Now THAT's pathetic.
> I eat when I want and I do what I want.
>
home[color=darkred]
>
> Just think, rather than babysitting your kid on the weekends and earning a
> paltry sum from your boss you could be doing REAL work for REAL clients
> while paving your way into an independent future.
>
that[color=darkred]
>
> That was me, that mentioned *lowly*
> Its a joke around these parts.
> People like you assume that your position is unworthy, then there are
people
> like Michael (LS) and I that have taken Drafting to the next level and
have
> carved out an existence for ourselves. There are primarily 2 reasons why
> Mike and I are NOT architects. 1) We would have to go back to school for
> years. 2) We are already successful and are making good money and enjoy
what
> we are doing.
>
> Can't speak for Mike but for myself, I spent the time and effort in the
> early years to get to where I am.
> I didn't complain (too loudly) worked over 100 hours a week to get done
what
> needed to get done.
> Worked a full time job as a lowly drafter WHILE working on my own projects
> during the evenings and weekends.
> Babysat a young son while all of this was going on.
>
>
> No one does. duh.
> You will NEVER have that experience while you spend your days with an
> employer, making him rich.
>
> I am
by[color=darkred]
>
> YAWN
> Employers have all sorts of tools at their disposal to make employees feel
> *needed* and invaluable.
> Just think, this coming Friday your boss could hand you a check and
walking
> papers and your life would be instantly in chaos.
> Thats called 'putting ones financial eggs in one basket, and letting
someone
> else hold it'.
>
> Myself and Michael, lowly drafters that we are, could lose an *employer*
or
> 2 or 3 and NOT suffer much damage at all.
> The more clients you have the less negative impact if one of them takes it
> down the road.
>
I[color=darkred]
>
>
| |
| Kris Krieger 2005-10-26, 4:21 pm |
| "gruhn" <gruhn@deletehwb.com> wrote in
news:5L97f.54$8G3.9497@news.uswest.net:
>
> The AIA requires it.
Even if they didn't, it'd still be necessary.
>
> <insert standard weeks long AIA argument here.>
>
> Yes.
>
>
> Just last night my roomie said to me "Why didn't you do it such and
> such a way?" And I said "Because I don't think they had that on 3.1."
> Lucky for me I was relating a story from 1994 not yesterday.
OTOH, if something works, it doesn't make sense to ditch it *only* because
it's old. Old can be used in new ways. Just look at stone <g>!
Seriously, tho', IMO being a Professional isn't a matter of career area,
it's part of who one is. Always learning, expanding one's knowledge, also
always striving to improve one's craft, one's capabilities. but also
keeping an element of fun, because if you aren't enjoying what you do, it's
merely a job like any other job.
> I dunno
> about AutoCAD clubs, tho'; it'd depend upon the members and the
>
> The club around here meets at like 11am on Wednesday. Sorry, gotta
> work.
Yeah, that time slot makes no sense to me.
Sounds more like a coffee klatcsch.
>
>
> Bleah.
>
> Not that it mightn't be, just "bleah."
Well, yes and no. As I mentioned, sometimes one has to figure out where
one;s energies would be best spent. And in a way, people often (and IMO
continually) "test" one another, although I'm sure there is a gentler, more
"touchyfeelie" psychological euphamism for it.
| |
| Kris Krieger 2005-10-26, 4:21 pm |
| "P Fritz" <paulfritzNOSPAMFORME@voyager.net> wrote in
news:11lqc2os4c4me7f@corp.supernews.com:
>
> "gruhn" <gruhn@deletehwb.com> wrote in message
> news:5L97f.54$8G3.9497@news.uswest.net...
>
> I'll bite..........the AIA is a useless P.C. organization that does
> little for its members.....they promote membership in their
> organization as some sort of extra credential, when the only
> credential is paying there membership fee.
>
> There "learning credtis" are little more than a scam to create a
> cottage industry of classes to earn those units.
Not the point, but nevertheless:
I don't know about the AIA, but re: classes, when I was a member of the ASM
(Amer. Soc. of Microbiologists), they also had classes one had to take, and
others that were "strongly suggested". The idea was to keep people current
with new technologies and refresh knowledge of techniques that one might
only use rarely. Same was true when I worked for the agency - I had to
take a number of classes a year in everything from languages to new
technologies to job-specific tidbits to just about whatever popped up that
might have been potentially useful - pretty much soup to nuts. So what's
your point in that regard? Yes, it creates a "cottage industry", and yes,
it *can* be taken to extremes, but in what way is it overall a terrible
thing? If one person has a skill that others need or want to learn, what's
wrong with getting paid to teach what one has spent time acquiring? I
don't see that as a bad thing, so you'll have to enlighten me as to why it
is.
| |
|
| "jojo"> wrote
> How do you make a living designing and drafting? Who seals your drawings?
> There is no governing body here (acb's or city's) that will accept
> drawings
> that are not sealed. None here have accepted the AIBD seal either.
> (although
> many are working on this)
> I have designed several homes myself "on the side" in the last 5 years,
> but
> about 2 years ago there were
> "issues" concerning architects who sealed drawings and did not really
> review
> them well. (this had nothing to
> do with My architects or with MY work) The backlash is that no one wants
> the
> be responsible for something
> they did not actually design. Now it is hard to get anyone to seal a set,
> and if they do, it's a hefty fee.
>
> Don, a lot of people work for someone else. I'm not a real "people person"
> (that translates to shy) and would not be great at drumming
> up new business. I am a very strong draftsman. If someone hands me a
> design,
> vague or detailed, I can make it a reality.
> I know when to work together to find the answer and when to find the
> answers
> on my own. I don't make code mistakes,
> and I don't draw things that fall down. I also understand old school
> drafting techniques and standards and how to
> create a readable and esthetically pleasing set of drawings that trades,
> builders and clients can read and understand.
> I am not lazy. But, I'm not bold enough to be self supporting either, at
> least not yet.
> There are many companies that require a person to clock in at certain
> times,
> and take their breaks and lunches at
> certain times. There are many firms in my area (central Texas) that have a
> "Japanese" work ethic, you don't leave till after the boss leaves.
> Yes, my boss could hand me my paycheck and walking papers tomorrow, and I
> would be at a lose.
>
> and yes, as a mom with a young child, much more of my after hours activity
> involves hay rides, pumpkin patches and Halloween costumes than
> trade shows and homes tours. It is MUCH better for me to working these
> things in on a weekday when they are less crowded and well frankly,
> don't cut so deeply into my personal time.
>
> There are aspects of my job that I like (and that I don't like).
> Of course I want to keep up with the latest and greatest! But there are
> some
> functions I don't care to attend or don't have time to attend and
> if my boss wants to me attend, he can pay for it in either time or money.
>
> I think we have beat this subject to death. Asked and answered (and
> analyzed).
Thanks for your honesty.
Being self employed may not be for everybody.
For at least 5 years, in this group, I have been encouraging people to
become self employed.
It is possible for anyone that so desires it.
At the age of 30 I had had 33 different jobs and couldn't stand any of them.
I was recently married and had a very young son when I told my last employer
'Later'.
I have now been self employed for 20 years and my only regret is that I
hadn't started sooner.
Fear held me back.
At the age of 50 I am anticipating telling my present business 'Later', and
starting all over in another state far from here.
Fear is rearing its head again.
But this time around it will be easier.
The first time is the hardest.
The 2nd time I will draw on the things I have learned along the way.
Do not quit your job.
Take on side jobs, have multiple income sources.
Have some business cards made up and always have some on you.
If you like to design houses, drop in on some model homes on a weekend and
take your kid with you, see what other people are doing, always be prepared
to hand someone a card, keep your eyes peeled all the time.
Go to a building supply store for a copy of their product brochure (maybe
shingles, or brick products for example) and leave a few cards laying on the
counter.
Pin some cards on the board at the local blueprinter.
Get you name out for people to see, make yourself accessible.
Think it through.
There are thousands of little things one can do in an effort to scare up
business without seeming to be begging.
It takes Attitude and Desire.
Go to the library and look up a book (or buy it) called, 'Think & Grow
Rich', by Napolean Hill.
I found it very inspirational when I was just starting out.
Best.
| |
| P Fritz 2005-10-27, 11:21 am |
|
"Don" <one-if-by-land@concord.com> wrote in message
news:GRW7f.702$m81.126@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> "jojo"> wrote
drawings?[color=darkred]
set,[color=darkred]
person"[color=darkred]
a[color=darkred]
I[color=darkred]
activity[color=darkred]
money.[color=darkred]
>
> Thanks for your honesty.
> Being self employed may not be for everybody.
> For at least 5 years, in this group, I have been encouraging people to
> become self employed.
> It is possible for anyone that so desires it.
> At the age of 30 I had had 33 different jobs and couldn't stand any of
them.
> I was recently married and had a very young son when I told my last
employer
> 'Later'.
> I have now been self employed for 20 years and my only regret is that I
> hadn't started sooner.
> Fear held me back.
Been on my own (with a partner) for almost 8 years now.........but these
last few months have been scary..........projects have just evaporated in
the last couple of months......clients that used to generate a couiple of
thousand a month ave nothing. Three months ago I thought we would be
having one of our busiest years next year....had a 200k, 80k, and a 35k
building all in the pipeline........they are stalled / gone. We've
generated a total of 20 billable hours between the two of us in the last
month..........needless to say, the Mich. economy has a lot to do with it.
>
> At the age of 50 I am anticipating telling my present business 'Later',
and
> starting all over in another state far from here.
> Fear is rearing its head again.
> But this time around it will be easier.
> The first time is the hardest.
> The 2nd time I will draw on the things I have learned along the way.
>
> Do not quit your job.
> Take on side jobs, have multiple income sources.
> Have some business cards made up and always have some on you.
> If you like to design houses, drop in on some model homes on a weekend and
> take your kid with you, see what other people are doing, always be
prepared
> to hand someone a card, keep your eyes peeled all the time.
> Go to a building supply store for a copy of their product brochure (maybe
> shingles, or brick products for example) and leave a few cards laying on
the
> counter.
> Pin some cards on the board at the local blueprinter.
> Get you name out for people to see, make yourself accessible.
> Think it through.
> There are thousands of little things one can do in an effort to scare up
> business without seeming to be begging.
> It takes Attitude and Desire.
> Go to the library and look up a book (or buy it) called, 'Think & Grow
> Rich', by Napolean Hill.
> I found it very inspirational when I was just starting out.
> Best.
>
>
| |
|
| "P Fritz"> wrote
> Been on my own (with a partner) for almost 8 years now.........but these
> last few months have been scary..........projects have just evaporated in
> the last couple of months......clients that used to generate a couiple of
> thousand a month ave nothing. Three months ago I thought we would be
> having one of our busiest years next year....had a 200k, 80k, and a 35k
> building all in the pipeline........they are stalled / gone. We've
> generated a total of 20 billable hours between the two of us in the last
> month..........needless to say, the Mich. economy has a lot to do with it.
Time to grab that phone and all them old invoices and start calling people
to *see how they're doin'*.
Talking to past clients will stir stuff up.
But don't come across as begging.
Really, calling old clients should be something all designers do all the
time, its simply being courteous.
An old client probably doesn't have any projects in the works, but they may
know somebody that does and refer them to you.....if you stay in their line
of thought.
You know what they say, *Out of sight, out of mind*.
The thing is, don't let the past client think you are calling him to try to
scare up business, nobody likes to be *used*, you have to be honest with
yourself in order to pull this off.
Act like you're really concerned about the client and conjuring up more
business is the last thing on your mind.
Ask how the building's doing, how he and the family are doing, etc.
Send out some brochures with cards.
Christmas is coming up so order your custom imprinted cards now, and send
them out the 1st week of Dec.
Typically the construction business slacks off at christmas, so your card
will be acknowledged and then discarded so you have to follow up with a
phone call in early Jan.
When business falls off you can sit around and wait for the phone to ring,
then be nervous when a client finally comes around or, you can be proactive
and try to stir the pot.
If business is slow its the perfect time to reformat hard drives, upgrade
software, organize file structures and block folders, rearrange the office,
paint the office, install some signs on projects, etc., anything to keep
yourself busy and treading water while the market swings back the other way.
You've been at it for 8 years so its just a matter of time before something
pops.
Under no circumstances are you allowed to beg.
| |
| P Fritz 2005-10-27, 12:21 pm |
|
"Don" <one-if-by-land@concord.com> wrote in message
news:Nn58f.792$2y.28@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> "P Fritz"> wrote
in[color=darkred]
of[color=darkred]
it.[color=darkred]
>
> Time to grab that phone and all them old invoices and start calling people
> to *see how they're doin'*.
What do you think we have been doing in our free time? Our main source of
work has been real estate brokers and developers...(and not just one or
two)......they are sitting on their hands as well............the phone calls
to the office are mostly contractors begging to get on our "bid
list"........wish we had one :-(
The automotive business is really killing everything in SE Mich.
Delphi.....now in bankruptcy, wants to cut wages from 27/hr to 9.75 hr.
Care to guess what that is going to do to the local economy???
> Talking to past clients will stir stuff up.
> But don't come across as begging.
> Really, calling old clients should be something all designers do all the
> time, its simply being courteous.
> An old client probably doesn't have any projects in the works, but they
may
> know somebody that does and refer them to you.....if you stay in their
line
> of thought.
> You know what they say, *Out of sight, out of mind*.
> The thing is, don't let the past client think you are calling him to try
to
> scare up business, nobody likes to be *used*, you have to be honest with
> yourself in order to pull this off.
> Act like you're really concerned about the client and conjuring up more
> business is the last thing on your mind.
> Ask how the building's doing, how he and the family are doing, etc.
>
> Send out some brochures with cards.
> Christmas is coming up so order your custom imprinted cards now, and send
> them out the 1st week of Dec.
> Typically the construction business slacks off at christmas, so your card
> will be acknowledged and then discarded so you have to follow up with a
> phone call in early Jan.
>
> When business falls off you can sit around and wait for the phone to ring,
> then be nervous when a client finally comes around or, you can be
proactive
> and try to stir the pot.
>
> If business is slow its the perfect time to reformat hard drives, upgrade
> software, organize file structures and block folders, rearrange the
office,
> paint the office, install some signs on projects, etc., anything to keep
> yourself busy and treading water while the market swings back the other
way.
>
> You've been at it for 8 years so its just a matter of time before
something
> pops.
>
> Under no circumstances are you allowed to beg.
>
>
| |
| 3D Peruna 2005-10-27, 12:21 pm |
|
"P Fritz" <paulfritzNOSPAMFORME@voyager.net> wrote in message
news:11m1qaurna6r169@corp.supernews.com...
> The automotive business is really killing everything in SE Mich.
> Delphi.....now in bankruptcy, wants to cut wages from 27/hr to 9.75 hr.
> Care to guess what that is going to do to the local economy???
>
Ooo... doesn't sound good. I feel for you. We're trying to keep things
happening here...fortunately, our economy is fairly "diverse." A paper mill
closed a few years ago. This is a small town and you'd think 600 jobs would
kill the economy. Not a blip. I felt bad for the guys who lost their jobs,
but the market was able to asborb most of them in other jobs.
Now...as for Delphi cutting from $27 to 9.75...maybe it should have been
closer to the 9.75 to begin with...(just market forces realigning to where
they ought to be). Still sucks for them.
| |
| P Fritz 2005-10-27, 12:21 pm |
|
"3D Peruna" <w!h#a$r%o^l&d@w!e#i$r%d&n*e(s)s.com> wrote in message
news:_W58f.2580$7s1.620@fe04.lga...
>
> "P Fritz" <paulfritzNOSPAMFORME@voyager.net> wrote in message
> news:11m1qaurna6r169@corp.supernews.com...
>
>
> Ooo... doesn't sound good. I feel for you. We're trying to keep things
> happening here...fortunately, our economy is fairly "diverse." A paper
mill
> closed a few years ago. This is a small town and you'd think 600 jobs
would
> kill the economy. Not a blip. I felt bad for the guys who lost their
jobs,
> but the market was able to asborb most of them in other jobs.
>
> Now...as for Delphi cutting from $27 to 9.75...maybe it should have been
> closer to the 9.75 to begin with...(just market forces realigning to where
> they ought to be). Still sucks for them.
Don't get me wrong........I think they were overpaid to begin with, gut it
will put a drag on the economy here.
The real killer was we had a project that was pretty solid....200k office /
light industrial building........unfortunately they were partnered with
Delphi, so the thing has been put on indefinte hold.
I know about small towns......grew up in western Pa. ...........the entire
country had only a little over 100,000 people.....and it is still the same
25 years later. That why I have always lived in a"big city" since.
>
>
| |
|
| > Been on my own (with a partner) for almost 8 years now.........but these
> last few months have been scary..........projects have just evaporated in
> the last couple of months......clients that used to generate a couiple of
> thousand a month ave nothing. Three months ago I thought we would be
> having one of our busiest years next year....had a 200k, 80k, and a 35k
> building all in the pipeline........they are stalled / gone. We've
> generated a total of 20 billable hours between the two of us in the last
> month..........needless to say, the Mich. economy has a lot to do with it.
I'm sure all architects can feel your pain. I've been through this
with multiple firms before. The first firm I worked for out of school
had put all of their eggs in the Mexico basket in the early 90's, and
after that big plummet of the peso they lost 80% of their billable work
within a two week span. The firm went from 65 to 25 in a matter of
weeks, with a few partners included in that number (they were top heavy
anyway). The only thing I have seen to somewhat avoid this is
diversify as much as possible, either by type of project, region, etc.
(I know, it's easier said than done). The firm I now work at (which I
am currently working towards becoming a partner in) has diversified to
the point of working in over 12 different countries currently. It has
taken many years of experience to get there, but the payoff is
excellent. We are currently swamped with work, and NEVER stop chasing
work. I'm sure you know this, but if you wait for work to slow down to
really start chasing and marketing, then you're already dead. We're
kind of stretched thin right now because of this, but who needs sleep
anyway?
| |
| P Fritz 2005-10-27, 1:21 pm |
|
"Cato" <cato_the_stoic@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1130427865.954356.67630@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
in[color=darkred]
of[color=darkred]
it.[color=darkred]
>
> I'm sure all architects can feel your pain. I've been through this
> with multiple firms before. The first firm I worked for out of school
> had put all of their eggs in the Mexico basket in the early 90's, and
> after that big plummet of the peso they lost 80% of their billable work
> within a two week span. The firm went from 65 to 25 in a matter of
> weeks, with a few partners included in that number (they were top heavy
> anyway). The only thing I have seen to somewhat avoid this is
> diversify as much as possible, either by type of project, region, etc.
> (I know, it's easier said than done). The firm I now work at (which I
> am currently working towards becoming a partner in) has diversified to
> the point of working in over 12 different countries currently. It has
> taken many years of experience to get there, but the payoff is
> excellent. We are currently swamped with work, and NEVER stop chasing
> work. I'm sure you know this, but if you wait for work to slow down to
> really start chasing and marketing, then you're already dead. We're
> kind of stretched thin right now because of this, but who needs sleep
> anyway?
There is that delicate balance of having too much and not enough. You do
not want to take too much on, and then not be able to deliver......it takes
far longer to restore a bad reputation that it does to create a good one in
the first place. We were swamped during the time that most people were
slow.....2002-2004, We have never had to do much "marketing" Our
reputation has enabled us to expand are client base to a level a very
comfortable level.....and by not caring much overhead, we have survived
through the slow times when many other firms have not.....it has all ground
to a halt in a instatn though......something we haven't seenin the years we
have been together.
>
| |
|
|
>
> There is that delicate balance of having too much and not enough. You do
> not want to take too much on, and then not be able to deliver......it takes
> far longer to restore a bad reputation that it does to create a good one in
> the first place. We were swamped during the time that most people were
> slow.....2002-2004, We have never had to do much "marketing" Our
> reputation has enabled us to expand are client base to a level a very
> comfortable level.....and by not caring much overhead, we have survived
> through the slow times when many other firms have not.....it has all ground
> to a halt in a instatn though......something we haven't seenin the years we
> have been together.
I completely agree with you on your first statement about that balance.
We have had many discussions on trying to maintain this balance, and
it's very difficult to know when to say the NO to a client. We've
recently had a real quandry about this when we had taken on a few new
projects, and then received a call from a longterm client who also had
a new project. We had already started on the ones with the new clients,
and we just couldn't turn down this old client. Just gotta suck it up
sometimes, and ride the storm out. One thing we have as a backstop for
being overloaded is a longterm relationship we have with a firm in
Buenos Aires that does some outsourcing for us in a pinch. Since they
are primarily a "technical" firm they help us with our DD (and on rare
occasion CD) sets, with us doing all of the front end design. They
will help set up our documents sets, and even draw some of the details
from sketches we send them. This is for rare occasions for very
time/staff consuming projects, but this relationship works surprisingly
well. Mainly because we know each other well, and they are a really
talented and conscientious group of guys. It also keeps us from
"overstaffing". Nothing worse than hiring a bunch of people and then
the projects go on hold, and you've suddenly got all these people
sitting around on their hands. I've seen this at other firms time and
time again. It's not fair to them to do that, so we typically will be
"understaffed", so to speak, most of the time.
Do you guys venture out of your general region often, or have you ever
thought of joint-venturing with other firms in different parts of the
country when times get tight? Just thinking out loud.
Good luck to you, hope things get "busy" for you soon.
| |
| Pierre Levesque, AIA 2005-10-27, 3:21 pm |
| Paul,
I know it sucks to have to go to other means to create leads but I might
suggest ServiceMagic. I know, I know, that's almost like begging but it's
not so bad. I signed up for it a year ago for some very similar reasons to
what you mentioned in your post and I reluctantly looked into it to find
that it's been very efficient.
SM is a lead generating service and is highly customizable to maximize the
potential for the leads to turn into jobs. I've bought about 20 leads to
date in the past year and was able to convert 3 into jobs... Those 3 have
since led to 3 more so I don't really buy leads from them anymore thought I
keep the leads coming in and check them for some "fingerprints" I look for
before committing to buying the lead.
The way it works is this:
Owners go to SM to find contractors, architects, interior designers etc to
design or build their projects. They fill out a request form with type of
work, Amount of SF, budget and other relevant info.
It looks like this:
---------------------
Job Information
Description:Hire an Architect to Design a Project
Job Code:F
Location:Great Neck, NY 11020
Job Number:9444215
Service Description:
Request Stage: Planning & Budgeting
Desired Completion Date: Less than 1 week
Historical Work: No
Request is for Commercial Location: No
Consumer Owns Home: Yes
Project Type: Whole house remodel
Square Footage: 2500
Needs: Evaluate proposed project to determine feasibility and approximate
cost; Prepare schematic and preliminary design drawings; Prepare
construction documents (plans and specifications); Assist with selection of
general contractor; Conduct final inspections
Approx. Budget (Fees + Construction): $200,001-$300,000
Expected Level of Quality: High End - I prefer the highest quality
craftsmanship and materials
Site Characteristics: Flat
Willing to Work with Non-Local Architect?: Maybe
Comments:
Expansion project for a CHC house located in Lake Success (Great Neck), NY.
Looking for a competent & experienced architech to provide recommendations &
design.
---------------------
You sign up and fill out your profile that includes desired territory/radius
you'd like leads to come in from and that you're only interested in
receiving leads under the category: Hire an Architect to Design a Project
and other criteria.
Those leads are automatically sent out to you and any other architect in
your area that has signed up for the service.
You go over the lead info and decide if you want to buy it. It's a pay per
use system and If you buy it, you immediately get the owner contact
information. Only the first three respondents get the owner info so you
are - at worst - competing against two others.
From there, you are on your own to set up appointments with owners etc. and
you need to "close the deal" by whatever usual means you use to get the job.
Now, the major problem with the service, not surprisingly, is that owners
looking for architects via the 'net generally don't know a thing about the
profession or construction so many are "first timers" with their projects.
But that's why I don't even consider buying a lead unless the person fills
out the type of project, square footage, and provides an estimated budget
that makes sense based on those two other criteria.
I can assure you that the bulk of the leads that come in are described as
something like "Whole House Remodel" with an estimated budget of
"$25,000.00". Needless to say these immediately go to the Deleted Items
folder.
But every once in a while, a legitimate looking lead comes in (I didn't buy
the one I illustrated above - too small a budget for a 2500SF whole house
remodel) I pounce on it.
The cost of the purchased leads follows a scale based on size of project,
estimated budget etc... They cost from $25.00 to $50.00.
Like I said, I've bought about 20 leads over the past year (about $1000.00
total) and closed on 3 jobs which turned into 3 more projects (about $120K
in fees)
So for me, it's worked out great... but it's not for everyone because as I
said, a 15% closing (30% if you count the referral jobs) might be considered
low for some...
Quite frankly, I see this service as more of a seed planting service... I
planted 3 seeds and now it's blossoming into a tree of work :-)
Anyhow, good luck with your dilemna...
PL
"P Fritz" <paulfritzNOSPAMFORME@voyager.net> wrote in message
news:11m1qaurna6r169@corp.supernews.com...
>
> "Don" <one-if-by-land@concord.com> wrote in message
> news:Nn58f.792$2y.28@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> in
> of
> it.
>
> What do you think we have been doing in our free time? Our main source
> of
> work has been real estate brokers and developers...(and not just one or
> two)......they are sitting on their hands as well............the phone
> calls
> to the office are mostly contractors begging to get on our "bid
> list"........wish we had one :-(
>
> The automotive business is really killing everything in SE Mich.
> Delphi.....now in bankruptcy, wants to cut wages from 27/hr to 9.75 hr.
> Care to guess what that is going to do to the local economy???
>
> may
> line
> to
>
> proactive
> office,
> way.
> something
>
>
| |
| P Fritz 2005-10-27, 3:21 pm |
|
"Cato" <cato_the_stoic@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1130433313.678387.111810@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
>
do[color=darkred]
takes[color=darkred]
in[color=darkred]
ground[color=darkred]
we[color=darkred]
>
>
> I completely agree with you on your first statement about that balance.
> We have had many discussions on trying to maintain this balance, and
> it's very difficult to know when to say the NO to a client. We've
> recently had a real quandry about this when we had taken on a few new
> projects, and then received a call from a longterm client who also had
> a new project. We had already started on the ones with the new clients,
> and we just couldn't turn down this old client. Just gotta suck it up
> sometimes, and ride the storm out. One thing we have as a backstop for
> being overloaded is a longterm relationship we have with a firm in
> Buenos Aires that does some outsourcing for us in a pinch. Since they
> are primarily a "technical" firm they help us with our DD (and on rare
> occasion CD) sets, with us doing all of the front end design. They
> will help set up our documents sets, and even draw some of the details
> from sketches we send them. This is for rare occasions for very
> time/staff consuming projects, but this relationship works surprisingly
> well. Mainly because we know each other well, and they are a really
> talented and conscientious group of guys. It also keeps us from
> "overstaffing". Nothing worse than hiring a bunch of people and then
> the projects go on hold, and you've suddenly got all these people
> sitting around on their hands. I've seen this at other firms time and
> time again. It's not fair to them to do that, so we typically will be
> "understaffed", so to speak, most of the time.
>
> Do you guys venture out of your general region often, or have you ever
> thought of joint-venturing with other firms in different parts of the
> country when times get tight? Just thinking out loud.
>
> Good luck to you, hope things get "busy" for you soon.
We did a little work in Fla, but to be honest it was too much of a hassle.
We have always wanted to stay small and "practice our art" instead of
becoming managers.....the personal relationship has always been a big factor
in winning over potential clients. They know that their project will not
get handed off to some lower level staff like in larger firms. I've always
keep a couple people as backup when things got moving....one who could write
specs, and another that could handle small jobs. We never wanted to be a
"hire and fire" firm like many mid size firms around here...I've slept on
the office floor many times because of it.....the really large firms here
seem to have a pool of "draftsmen" that they shuffle around to each other on
an as need basis. Years ago, I worked for one of the larger firms in town
for a few months......(worked on the Arthur Ashe Tennis Stadium in NY)
about 15 people were actually employees for 4-5 different competing
firms.......in talking with them, they moved from firm to firm as the
needs arouse, always maintaining their original employer.
I think another reason for the slow down is that fewer and fewer people can
produce more and more of the work, yet the architecture schools keep
pumping out graduates, so more and more people are competing for the same
amount of pie.. Our big project that we had for the last couple of
years....a 250,000 s.f office building....we did pretty much on our own.
Produced about 350 sheets of CD's in less than 6 months by myself.......that
would not have been possible 10 years ago.
>
| |
| P Fritz 2005-10-27, 4:21 pm |
| Thanks.......I will check it out.
"Pierre Levesque, AIA" <pierrelevesqueNOSPAM@connarch.com> wrote in message
news:i_78f.13835$%A1.3694@trndny01...
> Paul,
>
> I know it sucks to have to go to other means to create leads but I might
> suggest ServiceMagic. I know, I know, that's almost like begging but it's
> not so bad. I signed up for it a year ago for some very similar reasons to
> what you mentioned in your post and I reluctantly looked into it to find
> that it's been very efficient.
>
> SM is a lead generating service and is highly customizable to maximize the
> potential for the leads to turn into jobs. I've bought about 20 leads to
> date in the past year and was able to convert 3 into jobs... Those 3 have
> since led to 3 more so I don't really buy leads from them anymore thought
I
> keep the leads coming in and check them for some "fingerprints" I look for
> before committing to buying the lead.
>
> The way it works is this:
>
> Owners go to SM to find contractors, architects, interior designers etc to
> design or build their projects. They fill out a request form with type of
> work, Amount of SF, budget and other relevant info.
>
> It looks like this:
> ---------------------
> Job Information
>
> Description:Hire an Architect to Design a Project
> Job Code:F
> Location:Great Neck, NY 11020
> Job Number:9444215
>
> Service Description:
>
> Request Stage: Planning & Budgeting
> Desired Completion Date: Less than 1 week
> Historical Work: No
> Request is for Commercial Location: No
> Consumer Owns Home: Yes
> Project Type: Whole house remodel
> Square Footage: 2500
>
> Needs: Evaluate proposed project to determine feasibility and approximate
> cost; Prepare schematic and preliminary design drawings; Prepare
> construction documents (plans and specifications); Assist with selection
of
> general contractor; Conduct final inspections
>
> Approx. Budget (Fees + Construction): $200,001-$300,000
>
> Expected Level of Quality: High End - I prefer the highest quality
> craftsmanship and materials
> Site Characteristics: Flat
> Willing to Work with Non-Local Architect?: Maybe
> Comments:
> Expansion project for a CHC house located in Lake Success (Great Neck),
NY.
> Looking for a competent & experienced architech to provide recommendations
&
> design.
> ---------------------
> You sign up and fill out your profile that includes desired
territory/radius
> you'd like leads to come in from and that you're only interested in
> receiving leads under the category: Hire an Architect to Design a Project
> and other criteria.
>
> Those leads are automatically sent out to you and any other architect in
> your area that has signed up for the service.
>
> You go over the lead info and decide if you want to buy it. It's a pay
per
> use system and If you buy it, you immediately get the owner contact
> information. Only the first three respondents get the owner info so you
> are - at worst - competing against two others.
>
> From there, you are on your own to set up appointments with owners etc.
and
> you need to "close the deal" by whatever usual means you use to get the
job.
>
> Now, the major problem with the service, not surprisingly, is that owners
> looking for architects via the 'net generally don't know a thing about the
> profession or construction so many are "first timers" with their projects.
> But that's why I don't even consider buying a lead unless the person fills
> out the type of project, square footage, and provides an estimated budget
> that makes sense based on those two other criteria.
>
> I can assure you that the bulk of the leads that come in are described as
> something like "Whole House Remodel" with an estimated budget of
> "$25,000.00". Needless to say these immediately go to the Deleted Items
> folder.
>
> But every once in a while, a legitimate looking lead comes in (I didn't
buy
> the one I illustrated above - too small a budget for a 2500SF whole house
> remodel) I pounce on it.
>
> The cost of the purchased leads follows a scale based on size of project,
> estimated budget etc... They cost from $25.00 to $50.00.
>
> Like I said, I've bought about 20 leads over the past year (about $1000.00
> total) and closed on 3 jobs which turned into 3 more projects (about $120K
> in fees)
>
> So for me, it's worked out great... but it's not for everyone because as
I
> said, a 15% closing (30% if you count the referral jobs) might be
considered
> low for some...
>
> Quite frankly, I see this service as more of a seed planting service... I
> planted 3 seeds and now it's blossoming into a tree of work :-)
>
> Anyhow, good luck with your dilemna...
>
> PL
>
>
>
> "P Fritz" <paulfritzNOSPAMFORME@voyager.net> wrote in message
> news:11m1qaurna6r169@corp.supernews.com...
evaporated[color=darkred]
couiple[color=darkred]
be[color=darkred]
35k[color=darkred]
with[color=darkred]
source[color=darkred]
the[color=darkred]
try[color=darkred]
with[color=darkred]
send[color=darkred]
card[color=darkred]
upgrade[color=darkred]
keep[color=darkred]
>
>
| |
| Kris Krieger 2005-10-27, 4:21 pm |
| "Don" <one-if-by-land@concord.com> wrote in
news:Nn58f.792$2y.28@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net:
> "P Fritz"> wrote
>
> Time to grab that phone and all them old invoices and start calling
> people to *see how they're doin'*.
> Talking to past clients will stir stuff up.
> But don't come across as begging.
> Really, calling old clients should be something all designers do all
> the time, its simply being courteous.
Actually, that's true of *any* profession. Never lose old contacts!
Always keep up with people with whom you worked well in the past.
((Rembering that "work well with" is not the same as "being best
friends".))
You never know when someone froom 10 yrs ago might have a good lead for you
- the main thing is to keep up with people. Heck, send Season's Greetings
cards. It's cheerful, and it keeps in touch. Email people. Keep in
touch.
> An old client probably doesn't have any projects in the works, but
> they may know somebody that does and refer them to you.....if you stay
> in their line of thought.
> You know what they say, *Out of sight, out of mind*.
> The thing is, don't let the past client think you are calling him to
> try to scare up business, nobody likes to be *used*, you have to be
> honest with yourself in order to pull this off.
> Act like you're really concerned about the client and conjuring up
> more business is the last thing on your mind.
> Ask how the building's doing, how he and the family are doing, etc.
Mainly, just have a mindset that is friendly. It doesn't mean one has to
be all mushy and touchyfeelie-warmfluffy, it just means being friendly and
keeping contact. "Hi, how are you doing? I was thinking about that
project we'd worked on and it got me wondering how you've been, since we
haven't talked in a while."
ANd like you said:
> Send out some brochures with cards.
> Christmas is coming up so order your custom imprinted cards now, and
> send them out the 1st week of Dec.
> Typically the construction business slacks off at christmas, so your
> card will be acknowledged and then discarded so you have to follow up
> with a phone call in early Jan.
>
> When business falls off you can sit around and wait for the phone to
> ring, then be nervous when a client finally comes around or, you can
> be proactive and try to stir the pot.
>
> If business is slow its the perfect time to reformat hard drives,
> upgrade software, organize file structures and block folders,
> rearrange the office, paint the office, install some signs on
> projects, etc., anything to keep yourself busy and treading water
> while the market swings back the other way.
>
> You've been at it for 8 years so its just a matter of time before
> something pops.
>
> Under no circumstances are you allowed to beg.
>
>
>
|
|
|
|
|