Architecture - Nails and glue versus screws

Author

Nails and glue versus screws

Sasquatch

2006-10-03, 9:25 am

For the house we're having built, it's time to build the floor deck.
I'm not doing the work, but I'm curious... What's the better method
for building a floor deck? ...nailing the floor boards to the joists
with glue or construction adhesive? ...or screwing the floor boards to
the joists without glue? My builder told me that they typically screw
the boards to the joists without glue, but my brother told me that he
has always nailed the floor boards to the joists with construction
adhesive. Which is the better technique? Will screws without glue
work well, or will we end up with squeaks? (I think this is 3/4" OSB
on top of 14" engineered joists.) Please advise. Thanks! - John

RicodJour

2006-10-03, 9:25 am

Sasquatch wrote:
> For the house we're having built, it's time to build the floor deck.
> I'm not doing the work, but I'm curious... What's the better method
> for building a floor deck? ...nailing the floor boards to the joists
> with glue or construction adhesive? ...or screwing the floor boards to
> the joists without glue? My builder told me that they typically screw
> the boards to the joists without glue, but my brother told me that he
> has always nailed the floor boards to the joists with construction
> adhesive. Which is the better technique? Will screws without glue
> work well, or will we end up with squeaks? (I think this is 3/4" OSB
> on top of 14" engineered joists.) Please advise. Thanks! - John

Nailed and glued is better for typical stick-built framing. If you
could assure very dry framing lumber, thereby eliminating most
shrinkage due to moisture loss in the wood, the screws would be as
good. Since you're going with engineered joists and OSB, it's a toss
up. I'd tell the builder to use glue and screw it. Cheap insurance
and he doesn't have to change his fastening method and tools.

R

Kris Krieger

2006-10-03, 1:25 pm

"RicodJour" <ricodjour@worldemail.com> wrote in
news:1159882863.827526.274330@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com:

> Sasquatch wrote:
>
> Nailed and glued is better for typical stick-built framing. If you
> could assure very dry framing lumber, thereby eliminating most
> shrinkage due to moisture loss in the wood, the screws would be as
> good. Since you're going with engineered joists and OSB, it's a toss
> up. I'd tell the builder to use glue and screw it. Cheap insurance
> and he doesn't have to change his fastening method and tools.
>
> R
>
>

Glue'n'screw is what they did (so they said, at least <g!> ) when they built
our house here (that's how they do it, it wasn't "special" for us). When
we'd gotten the other place (in MA), floors were just nailed, and squeaks
started to develop within a few weeks. So far, not a "peep" out of the
floors here.

HTH

- K.

jojo

2006-10-03, 1:25 pm

"Kris Krieger" <me@dowmuff.in> wrote in message
news:C0vUg.9487$UG4.2105@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> "RicodJour" <ricodjour@worldemail.com> wrote in
> news:1159882863.827526.274330@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com:
>
>
> Glue'n'screw is what they did (so they said, at least <g!> ) when they
> built
> our house here (that's how they do it, it wasn't "special" for us). When
> we'd gotten the other place (in MA), floors were just nailed, and squeaks
> started to develop within a few weeks. So far, not a "peep" out of the
> floors here.
>
> HTH
>
> - K.

Is graphite and option at this stage, or is that only remedial?

jojo

RicodJour

2006-10-03, 1:25 pm

jojo wrote:
>
> Is graphite and option at this stage, or is that only remedial?

That'll work on hinges, but not on squeaking subfloors, or finished
wood floors for that matter. Access.

R

Ken S. Tucker

2006-10-03, 1:25 pm

RicodJour wrote:
> jojo wrote:

I've been told baby powder (talc) works well (cheaper than
graphite) spread on the beams. Just recently I put in a
porch for wife and she requested a squeaky floor so I just
screwed it down a bit and it squeaks well.
OTOH we nailed and glued the inside floor (5/8) and it's solid
and quiet on 2x8's spanning 10' @16oc.
[color=darkred]
> That'll work on hinges, but not on squeaking subfloors, or finished
> wood floors for that matter. Access.
> R

Any experience with "gasket seal" ?
Ken

RicodJour

2006-10-03, 1:25 pm

Ken S. Tucker wrote:
> RicodJour wrote:
>
> I've been told baby powder (talc) works well (cheaper than
> graphite) spread on the beams. Just recently I put in a
> porch for wife and she requested a squeaky floor so I just
> screwed it down a bit and it squeaks well.
> OTOH we nailed and glued the inside floor (5/8) and it's solid
> and quiet on 2x8's spanning 10' @16oc.

Wood to wood is rarely what's making the noise. It's almost always
wood moving along a nail. I can't think of a realistic way to get
graphite/talc spread along the sides of the nail once the floor is
installed.

>
> Any experience with "gasket seal" ?

An eskimo rides his snowmobile into a repair shop. The mechanic pops
the hood and peers inside for a bit. He emerges, squints at the eskimo
and says, "It looks like you've blown a seal." The eskimo's hand
shoots to his mustache and he exclaims, "What, this?! No! That's just
frozen ice cream!"

R

Kris Krieger

2006-10-03, 1:25 pm

"jojo" <cgv_2000@*remove your hat*yahoo.com> wrote in
news:_gvUg.7024$TV3.2990@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com:

>
> "Kris Krieger" <me@dowmuff.in> wrote in message
> news:C0vUg.9487$UG4.2105@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
> Is graphite and option at this stage, or is that only remedial?
>
> jojo
>

We sold the squeaky place in MA when we moved here (Houston area) ;) .
I dunno what, if anything, the new owners might have done or planned to
do...maybe they didn't even think it was a problem...

Jude Alexander

2006-10-03, 5:25 pm

"RicodJour" <ricodjour@worldemail.com> wrote in message
news:1159897100.490570.19150@c28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...[color=darkred]
> Ken S. Tucker wrote:

Oh, that is funny! I guess you wife didn't want you sneaking up on her, you
old dog, you!?

Bob Morrison

2006-10-03, 8:25 pm

In a previous post Sasquatch wrote...
> For the house we're having built, it's time to build the floor deck.
> I'm not doing the work, but I'm curious... What's the better method
> for building a floor deck? ...nailing the floor boards to the joists
> with glue or construction adhesive? ...or screwing the floor boards to
> the joists without glue? My builder told me that they typically screw
> the boards to the joists without glue, but my brother told me that he
> has always nailed the floor boards to the joists with construction
> adhesive. Which is the better technique? Will screws without glue
> work well, or will we end up with squeaks? (I think this is 3/4" OSB
> on top of 14" engineered joists.) Please advise. Thanks! - John
>

I've recently seen a new floor installation method that uses a strip of
closed cell foam tape on top of the joists instead of glue. The sheathing
is then put down using #8 screws on the same pattern as one would use 10d
nails. The foam has adhesive on one side and a slick surface on the other
to make sliding the sheathing into place easier. I'm told that the
adhesive on the foam works better on wet surfaces than the normal
construction adhesive and unlike glue won't spread to surfaces where you
don't want it. This floor is good and solid and does not squeak.

--
Bob Morrison, PE, SE
R L Morrison Engineering Co
Structural & Civil Engineering
Poulsbo WA
bob at rlmorrisonengr dot com

RicodJour

2006-10-03, 8:25 pm

Bob Morrison wrote:
> In a previous post Sasquatch wrote...
>
> I've recently seen a new floor installation method that uses a strip of
> closed cell foam tape on top of the joists instead of glue. The sheathing
> is then put down using #8 screws on the same pattern as one would use 10d
> nails. The foam has adhesive on one side and a slick surface on the other
> to make sliding the sheathing into place easier. I'm told that the
> adhesive on the foam works better on wet surfaces than the normal
> construction adhesive and unlike glue won't spread to surfaces where you
> don't want it. This floor is good and solid and does not squeak.

What's the name of that product, Bob? On first take it sounds mighty
strange. I'd like to read the manufacturer's claims. I'd say giving
up the glue between joist and subfloor is a negative. I know that the
system strength as designed comes from the fastener schedule design and
not from the highly variable application of glue, but the supplemental
strength can't hurt. I guess they're thinking that the foam will act
as a spring to keep the right amount of tension on the fasteners as the
seasons change and the slick surface allows the wood to move a bit
without squeaking. It's an interesting idea at the least.

R

Warm Worm

2006-10-04, 3:25 am

"Sasquatch" wrote
> For the house we're having built, it's time to build the floor deck.
> I'm not doing the work, but I'm curious... What's the better method
> for building a floor deck? ...nailing the floor boards to the joists
> with glue or construction adhesive? ...or screwing the floor boards to
> the joists without glue? My builder told me that they typically screw
> the boards to the joists without glue, but my brother told me that he
> has always nailed the floor boards to the joists with construction
> adhesive. Which is the better technique? Will screws without glue
> work well, or will we end up with squeaks? (I think this is 3/4" OSB
> on top of 14" engineered joists.) Please advise. Thanks! - John

Big:
http://groups.google.ca/group/alt.a...c9fbe7d5482a04b

Tiny:
http://tinyurl.com/loghy

Ken S. Tucker

2006-10-04, 3:25 am

Jude Alexander wrote:
> "RicodJour" <ricodjour@worldemail.com> wrote in message
> news:1159897100.490570.19150@c28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
> Oh, that is funny! I guess you wife didn't want you sneaking up on her, you
> old dog, you!?

Woof, woof...
You got it! Following your post I asked why she
wanted squeaky and it was indeed for security.
Just to add, we have some cellophane windows
(double pane heat shrink) to conduct sound from
the exterior.
Once we're settled we plan on deploying EAR's
http://earco.travisktucker.com/
around the property, mostly for nature.
Ken
PS: Jude, where are you posting from, I'm in BC
right now.

Bob Morrison

2006-10-04, 9:25 am

In a previous post RicodJour wrote...
> What's the name of that product, Bob? On first take it sounds mighty
> strange. I'd like to read the manufacturer's claims. I'd say giving
> up the glue between joist and subfloor is a negative. I know that the
> system strength as designed comes from the fastener schedule design and
> not from the highly variable application of glue, but the supplemental
> strength can't hurt. I guess they're thinking that the foam will act
> as a spring to keep the right amount of tension on the fasteners as the
> seasons change and the slick surface allows the wood to move a bit
> without squeaking. It's an interesting idea at the least.
>

Rico:

Here's a link to one product. There must be others, because the one I saw
was yellow in color.

http://www.integritygasket.com/

--
Bob Morrison, PE, SE
R L Morrison Engineering Co
Structural & Civil Engineering
Poulsbo WA
bob at rlmorrisonengr dot com

Kris Krieger

2006-10-04, 1:25 pm

Bob Morrison <SpamFighter@junk.com> wrote in
news:MPG.1f8d629228d4ad989c3d@news.west.earthlink.net:

> In a previous post RicodJour wrote...
>
> Rico:
>
> Here's a link to one product. There must be others, because the one I
> saw was yellow in color.
>
> http://www.integritygasket.com/
>

How many years do these foams last? There is also a type that I've seen
pur around window openings before the actual window is put intot he
frame, done as insulation. I know that fiberglass lasts a long time
because it is, well, glass, but aren't the foams made from organic
materials (petroleum/carbon-based materials) rather than mineral-based
materials?, and if so, how long is it before they need to be replaced?,
i.e. how long do those floor-inderlayments last? There is also a thin
foam (theat feels a lot like the sheets used for packing fragile items
for shipping) that can be put under those installable "instant"/pre-
finished hardwood floors, but I haven't yet come across info re: how
long it is before the floor needs to be ripped up and the foam replaced.
I've asked but usually the reply is something like, "Oh, it should be a
long time"...

Ken S. Tucker

2006-10-04, 5:25 pm

RicodJour wrote:
> Bob Morrison wrote:
>
> What's the name of that product, Bob? On first take it sounds mighty
> strange. I'd like to read the manufacturer's claims. I'd say giving
> up the glue between joist and subfloor is a negative. I know that the
> system strength as designed comes from the fastener schedule design and
> not from the highly variable application of glue, but the supplemental
> strength can't hurt. I guess they're thinking that the foam will act
> as a spring to keep the right amount of tension on the fasteners as the
> seasons change and the slick surface allows the wood to move a bit
> without squeaking. It's an interesting idea at the least.
> R

Just walked around the house and found squeaks
occuring from the center carrier wall, where it meets
the floor but not the exterior walls. I used gasket seal
on the bottom of the outside walls, where base plate
meets floor, but not on the interior walls there, thinking
of the gasket seal as a weather/bug barrier only and not
thinking about squeaks.

Also walked on wife's squeaky porch that is secured
with only six 1.5" #6 screws per 4x8 sheet and find
squeaks come from wood sliding on wood that are
directly in contact, the screws themselves don't squeak.

Anyway, I conclude that the gasket seal prevents
direct contact of wood surfaces and provides an
acoustical and thermal barrier too.
Ken

Bob Morrison

2006-10-04, 5:25 pm

In a previous post Kris Krieger wrote...
> How many years do these foams last?
>

If not exposed to UV they should last indefinitely. I think the idea of
the foam is fill in the small surface irregularities that occur along the
tops of the joists and the underside of the floor sheathing (same thing
the glue does). The difference (as Rico pointed out) is that there is
some structural benefit to a glued floor. However, if the joists have
been properly sized this "benefit" is not really required.

--
Bob Morrison, PE, SE
R L Morrison Engineering Co
Structural & Civil Engineering
Poulsbo WA
bob at rlmorrisonengr dot com

Kris Krieger

2006-10-05, 5:25 pm

Bob Morrison <SpamFighter@junk.com> wrote in
news:MPG.1f8dc0a2fd1aea5989c40@news.west.earthlink.net:

> In a previous post Kris Krieger wrote...
>
> If not exposed to UV they should last indefinitely.

Oh! OK, that's cool, I'll remember that ;)

> I think the idea
> of the foam is fill in the small surface irregularities that occur
> along the tops of the joists and the underside of the floor sheathing
> (same thing the glue does). The difference (as Rico pointed out) is
> that there is some structural benefit to a glued floor. However, if
> the joists have been properly sized this "benefit" is not really
> required.
>

The structural aspect is something I'd not been aware of. Even aside
from that, tho', I've been on both "foam floors" and "non-foam floors"
(obviously, not inflexible flooring such as tile), and the foam *does*
make a difference in terms of being gentler on one's feet and so on
(especially noticeable if one has arthritis or other problem in the
feet, tho' it's also more comfortable on knees and hips). Concrete is
the worst. Wood is OK. Foam is pretty nice. It also keeps the floor
more thermally comfortable. And helps reduce noise.

I like the look of tile, and upkeep (same for wood) is certainly easier
than carpeting (and given my 'd'ruthers, I'd prefer smooth flooring with
area carpeting, because wall-to-wall has a lot of disadvantages) but
man, the tile-on-concrete is terrible if I'm on it for more than a short
period in bare feet (in terms of foot and joint pain). It'd be
interesting if there was a way to do tile flooring that combined the
"shock reduction" of foam, with some sort of flexible fill instead of
grout. Well, that looked decent, at least <g!>

But I digress again. That's interesting and useful info re: the
longevity of flooring and related "foam" materials, thanks

.

BTW, is there a more precise word than "foam"? That always remonds me
of cheesy styrofoam. But the flooring type, and similar types ((such as
the packing foam sheets, and sheets used around window frames)), don't
"atomize" so to speak =:-o upon impact; they have ot be cut - can't
even really rip them, if they have any thickness at all. It's
interesting stuff with quite a number of possible uses. Far, far
different from the stuff that's made like styrofoam (or the stuff made
by pressing endless numbers of tiny balls together - I think we've all
seen that stuff come flying out of rent beanbag chairs, or broken
packing materials...fragile, and has a heck of a static charge so it is
incredibly difficult to get rid of if it escapes...)

Bob Morrison

2006-10-05, 5:25 pm

In a previous post Kris Krieger wrote...
> BTW, is there a more precise word than "foam"? That always remonds me
> of cheesy styrofoam. But the flooring type, and similar types ((such as
> the packing foam sheets, and sheets used around window frames)), don't
> "atomize" so to speak =:-o upon impact; they have ot be cut - can't
> even really rip them, if they have any thickness at all. It's
> interesting stuff with quite a number of possible uses. Far, far
> different from the stuff that's made like styrofoam (or the stuff made
> by pressing endless numbers of tiny balls together - I think we've all
> seen that stuff come flying out of rent beanbag chairs, or broken
> packing materials...fragile, and has a heck of a static charge so it is
> incredibly difficult to get rid of if it escapes...)
>
>

There is world of difference between open cell foams (packing peanuts) and
closed cell foams for structural uses. The latter have quite a bit of
strength. I've even heard of the concrete for auditorium type seating
being poured on top of closed cell foam shaped to fit the risers. Way
cheaper than trying to form and support the complex shape from underneath.

--
Bob Morrison, PE, SE
R L Morrison Engineering Co
Structural & Civil Engineering
Poulsbo WA
bob at rlmorrisonengr dot com

Kris Krieger

2006-10-05, 8:25 pm

Bob Morrison <SpamFighter@junk.com> wrote in
news:MPG.1f8f1c5b4c37c8989c4c@news.west.earthlink.net:

> In a previous post Kris Krieger wrote...
>
> There is world of difference between open cell foams (packing peanuts)
> and closed cell foams for structural uses.

Ah-ha! Open cell, and closed cell.

> The latter have quite a
> bit of strength. I've even heard of the concrete for auditorium type
> seating being poured on top of closed cell foam shaped to fit the
> risers. Way cheaper than trying to form and support the complex shape
> from underneath.
>

Thanks for your answer and taking the time to inform me ;) . That helps a
lot. Neat bit about the concrete, too.

Ken S. Tucker

2006-10-06, 9:25 am

Kris Krieger wrote:
> Bob Morrison <SpamFighter@junk.com> wrote in
> news:MPG.1f8f1c5b4c37c8989c4c@news.west.earthlink.net:
>
>
> Ah-ha! Open cell, and closed cell.
>
>
> Thanks for your answer and taking the time to inform me ;) . That helps a
> lot. Neat bit about the concrete, too.

"Gasket seal" is nice stuff, comes in 3.5" width's
50' roll here for $3-4, next time you're at hardware
or lumber store pic up a roll. I keep low inventory,
but that stuff is like duct tape, must have it. It's
main function is to seal the base plate to the floor.
I think it's polystyrene.
fun stuff
Ken

Don

2006-10-06, 9:25 am

"Ken S. Tucker"> wrote
> "Gasket seal" is nice stuff, comes in 3.5" width's
> 50' roll here for $3-4, next time you're at hardware
> or lumber store pic up a roll. I keep low inventory,
> but that stuff is like duct tape, must have it. It's
> main function is to seal the base plate to the floor.
> I think it's polystyrene.
> fun stuff

Just bought 3 rolls yesterday but it was called Sill Seal and it was priced
as you said for 50' rolls.

Kris Krieger

2006-10-06, 5:25 pm

"Ken S. Tucker" <dynamics@vianet.on.ca> wrote in
news:1160132654.073144.267650@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com:

>
> Kris Krieger wrote:
[ snipped differential definitions of foam ]
>
> "Gasket seal" is nice stuff, comes in 3.5" width's
> 50' roll here for $3-4, next time you're at hardware
> or lumber store pic up a roll. I keep low inventory,
> but that stuff is like duct tape, must have it. It's
> main function is to seal the base plate to the floor.

OK, I know I've seen that but didn't realize what it was. Now I know. I
have some stuff to get a Lowes so that's a good addition to the list. One
thing is that I want to put some under pots (well, inder the pot dishes)
once the pool is done, so the pots don't mar the decking ((I rememner what
Bob said about UV, already have an idea re: that)). And one useage diea
always ends up leading to ten more. There are many problems that have
simple solutions, once one knows the basic info ;)

> I think it's polystyrene.
> fun stuff
> Ken
>

I though the styrenes were the things that flake/"atomize", are short-
lived, and have a high static charge. But I don't know what the flexible
low-static long-lived types are made of. Maybe it will be on the
packaging.

- K.

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