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| Well, this morning I sat down with Jim and Michelle and after our initial
howdy do's and such, Jim said, 'Don, next year I want my house to be on the
cover of Architectural Digest'.
I glanced at Michelle and she was leaning forward, arms on the table, and
grinning slyly.
After a pause I told him, 'Everybody wants their home to be on the cover of
Architectural Digest but few see it happen. They're too anxious. The trick
is to have Architectural Digest want your home on their cover'.
Out of the corner of my eye I saw Michelle lean a little closer.
Jim said, 'Goddamn, I like the way this is going already', then he got up
and walked to the wetbar.
'Don, do you want a soda? Beer? Water?'
I replied, 'No, I'm cool'.
| |
|
| "RicodJour"> wrote
> Don wrote:
>
> I'd watch out for Michelle. I've heard stories...
>
>
> Always ask for juice, preferably grapefruit, but settle on whatever
> they have. It's not solely a kids drink like soda, not indicative of
> being an alcoholic like alcohol or water. People like to offer you
> things, it lets them be hospitable and it makes everyone more
> comfortable. Be gracious and accept next time.
Nope.
Several reasons.
It takes the relationship into an unnecessarily friendly zone.
I'm there first and foremost for business.
2nd, I won't risk looking silly by spilling stuff.
Yes, accidents do happen and at the most inopportune time.
When my end of the deal is done then I turn up the *friendly* mode so as to
deepen the relationship and potentially secure a referral later on.
ALL of my business is referral.
| |
| RicodJour 2006-01-31, 10:21 pm |
| Don wrote:
> Well, this morning I sat down with Jim and Michelle and after our initial
> howdy do's and such, Jim said, 'Don, next year I want my house to be on the
> cover of Architectural Digest'.
>
> I glanced at Michelle and she was leaning forward, arms on the table, and
> grinning slyly.
>
> After a pause I told him, 'Everybody wants their home to be on the cover of
> Architectural Digest but few see it happen. They're too anxious. The trick
> is to have Architectural Digest want your home on their cover'.
>
> Out of the corner of my eye I saw Michelle lean a little closer.
I'd watch out for Michelle. I've heard stories...
> Jim said, 'Goddamn, I like the way this is going already', then he got up
> and walked to the wetbar.
> 'Don, do you want a soda? Beer? Water?'
>
> I replied, 'No, I'm cool'.
Always ask for juice, preferably grapefruit, but settle on whatever
they have. It's not solely a kids drink like soda, not indicative of
being an alcoholic like alcohol or water. People like to offer you
things, it lets them be hospitable and it makes everyone more
comfortable. Be gracious and accept next time.
R
| |
| RicodJour 2006-01-31, 11:21 pm |
| Don wrote:
> "RicodJour"> wrote
>
> Nope.
> Several reasons.
> It takes the relationship into an unnecessarily friendly zone.
One area where we differ. I want people to be schooled in the social
graces and to treat people with gentility and respect...unlike in
newsgroups. ;) If I don't see people concerned about making the other
person comfortable in their home, I'm not interested in working on it.
I'm constantly evaluating/screening people, and if there's any inkling
that they will be a problem or fail to show common courtesy and
respect, I won't be working with them.
> I'm there first and foremost for business.
I'm there for the free juice!
> 2nd, I won't risk looking silly by spilling stuff.
> Yes, accidents do happen and at the most inopportune time.
You have one of those "drinking problems" like that guy in Airplane! ?
> When my end of the deal is done then I turn up the *friendly* mode so as to
> deepen the relationship and potentially secure a referral later on.
Turning up friendly mode....hmmm. Sounds mighty calculating - friendly
with ulterior motives. You _sure_ you're not a politician?
> ALL of my business is referral.
Likewise.
R
| |
|
| "RicodJour"> wrote
> Don wrote:
>
> One area where we differ. I want people to be schooled in the social
> graces and to treat people with gentility and respect...unlike in
> newsgroups. ;) If I don't see people concerned about making the other
> person comfortable in their home, I'm not interested in working on it.
> I'm constantly evaluating/screening people, and if there's any inkling
> that they will be a problem or fail to show common courtesy and
> respect, I won't be working with them.
>
>
> I'm there for the free juice!
I've had many people bring drinking material to the table and it leaves
wetspots, clutter and distraction.
Keep in mind that most of the time I have D sized sheets of paper all over
the table.
>
> You have one of those "drinking problems" like that guy in Airplane! ?
>
>
> Turning up friendly mode....hmmm. Sounds mighty calculating - friendly
> with ulterior motives. You _sure_ you're not a politician?
>
>
> Likewise.
Goes to show, there's many ways to achieve success. :-)
| |
| Pierre Levesque, AIA 2006-02-01, 11:21 am |
| Whenever clients tell me that they want their project to be on the cover of
Architectural Digest I usually reply with "that's the LAST place you want
this project to be... Architectural Digest is a society pages rag like a
sort of People magazine for design"
Then I inform/educate them of the "real" architecture publications to shoot
for...
"Don" <one-if-by-land@concord.com> wrote in message
news:5LODf.3206$Nv2.2451@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> Well, this morning I sat down with Jim and Michelle and after our initial
> howdy do's and such, Jim said, 'Don, next year I want my house to be on
> the cover of Architectural Digest'.
>
> I glanced at Michelle and she was leaning forward, arms on the table, and
> grinning slyly.
>
> After a pause I told him, 'Everybody wants their home to be on the cover
> of Architectural Digest but few see it happen. They're too anxious. The
> trick is to have Architectural Digest want your home on their cover'.
>
> Out of the corner of my eye I saw Michelle lean a little closer.
>
> Jim said, 'Goddamn, I like the way this is going already', then he got up
> and walked to the wetbar.
> 'Don, do you want a soda? Beer? Water?'
>
> I replied, 'No, I'm cool'.
>
| |
| RicodJour 2006-02-01, 11:21 am |
| Pierre Levesque, AIA wrote:
> Whenever clients tell me that they want their project to be on the cover of
> Architectural Digest I usually reply with "that's the LAST place you want
> this project to be... Architectural Digest is a society pages rag like a
> sort of People magazine for design"
>
> Then I inform/educate them of the "real" architecture publications to shoot
> for...
Wouldn't happen to be that self-published architectural journal,
PLAIA*, would it? ;)
R
* Pronounced playa or player depending on whether you're more into
Burning Man and or/beaches, or being a player.
| |
|
| During the initial conference the LAST thing I do is offend or negatively
react to the clients requests or comments.
Its a cat and mouse game at this point and I am the mouse.
There will be plenty of time for arguing later on.
After I get that deposit check firmly in hand a transition takes place.
I change from mild mannered to highly aggressive.
Only after long self analysis in the distant past did I start to realize why
some of my perspective clients were walking out the door.
By giving them reasons to walk out the door I was causing my own problems.
"Pierre Levesque, AIA" <pierrelevesqueNOSPAM@connarch.com> wrote in message
news:tt3Ef.4059$pO2.1846@trndny09...
> Whenever clients tell me that they want their project to be on the cover
> of Architectural Digest I usually reply with "that's the LAST place you
> want this project to be... Architectural Digest is a society pages rag
> like a sort of People magazine for design"
>
> Then I inform/educate them of the "real" architecture publications to
> shoot for...
>
> "Don" <one-if-by-land@concord.com> wrote in message
> news:5LODf.3206$Nv2.2451@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
>
>
| |
| Pierre Levesque, AIA 2006-02-01, 11:21 am |
| "Don" <one-if-by-land@concord.com> wrote in message
news:LG3Ef.4306$Nv2.2869@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> During the initial conference the LAST thing I do is offend or negatively
> react to the clients requests or comments.
> Its a cat and mouse game at this point and I am the mouse.
> There will be plenty of time for arguing later on.
> After I get that deposit check firmly in hand a transition takes place.
> I change from mild mannered to highly aggressive.
>
> Only after long self analysis in the distant past did I start to realize
> why some of my perspective clients were walking out the door.
> By giving them reasons to walk out the door I was causing my own problems.
>
Note that I wrote "Whenever clients tell me..." I only do this AFTER they
are clients! You're right, engaging in dialogue like this during the
initial meeting could be deadly :-(
> "Pierre Levesque, AIA" <pierrelevesqueNOSPAM@connarch.com> wrote in
> message news:tt3Ef.4059$pO2.1846@trndny09...
>
>
| |
| 3D Peruna 2006-02-01, 11:21 am |
| Pierre Levesque, AIA wrote:[color=darkred]
> "Don" <one-if-by-land@concord.com> wrote in message
> news:LG3Ef.4306$Nv2.2869@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
I've started to try and read clients to know if they're the kind of
client that no amount of fee will be enough to deal with them. If
they're THAT kind of client, I do my best to politely explain that they
really don't want to work with us because their project doesn't fit what
we do. It's hard to turn away such work, but the amount of pain some
clients cause...
| |
| RicodJour 2006-02-01, 12:21 pm |
| 3D Peruna wrote:
> Pierre Levesque, AIA wrote:
>
> I've started to try and read clients to know if they're the kind of
> client that no amount of fee will be enough to deal with them. If
> they're THAT kind of client, I do my best to politely explain that they
> really don't want to work with us because their project doesn't fit what
> we do. It's hard to turn away such work, but the amount of pain some
> clients cause...
It's not as hard as dealing with a problem client. There's that old
rule of thumb - the 80/20 rule. It states that 80% or your time will
be sucked down by 20% of your customers. Another way of saying that is
that 1 out of 5 will do everything they possibly can to keep you from
making money. The trick is to get rid of that 20% ahead of time.
Don's comment about never saying anything negative until he has the
job, and changing from "mild mannered to highly aggressive" sounds to
me like a recipe for disaster. Consistency is probably the single most
highly valued trait in any interaction between two people/parties. If
someone always lets you down, you won't expect anything from them, if
they always do exactly what they say, you won't expect to be let down.
It's the change-up pitch that throws people - you don't know what to
expect, which leads to anxiety and difficulties.
I _want_ people to have a reason to walk out the door. I'm not going
out of my way to antagonize anyone, but I will certainly have some
criticism on some aspect of the potential project and I won't be shy
about letting them know it. If they can't handle some criticism,
they're probably going to be a problem customer. 3D's "we're not the
right fit" is a great way of saying thanks but no thanks. Then I give
the problem customer the name and number of the biggest hack around.
;)
R
| |
|
| "3D Peruna""> wrote
> Pierre Levesque, AIA wrote:
>
> I've started to try and read clients to know if they're the kind of client
> that no amount of fee will be enough to deal with them. If they're THAT
> kind of client, I do my best to politely explain that they really don't
> want to work with us because their project doesn't fit what we do. It's
> hard to turn away such work, but the amount of pain some clients cause...
It has occurred to me that the amount of work one has on the drawing board
determines the number of hoops one is willing to jump through to get more
work.
Its vicious.
*Reading* the client is of paramount importance and an undefined art, not
science.
I've learned a number of methods (trial and error) over the years to
determine in 15 mins or less if the deal is gonna be consumated in the next
hour, or not.
Right away, I don't have time for idle chit chat, consumption of beverages
or anything else that might detract me from what I'm there for: extracting
the largest number possible of legal tenders from client to me. Nothing else
even matters.
One of the first questions I ask the client is his estimated time frame of
when the project will be completed, this causing him to focus on the end
zone and that the clock is ticking. If he's talking about a year or more on
down the line I then advise him that with code changes being what they are
it is imperative that he builds his project immediately after the permit
drawings are completed. Then I tell him how long it will take to prepare the
drawing, how long to get the permit and how long to do the construction. A
year or more can be absorbed right on the spot and that will force the
client into seeing the reality of the whole deal.
Then I throw a little ether on the fire.
I inject my own schedule into the mix.
That I can't get to his drawings for another month which drags the whole
thing that much closer into focus.
I've been jerked around by far too many clients in far too many ways.
I still get jerked, as people are different and use different ploys to waste
my time, but I keep reacting and revising my tactics.
| |
|
| "RicodJour"> wrote
> Don's comment about never saying anything negative until he has the
> job, and changing from "mild mannered to highly aggressive" sounds to
> me like a recipe for disaster.
Why?
As I said, all of my clients are referred to me, and I'll never see them
again...at least for business purposes.
Most of my clients build very expensive homes on very exclusive properties
and they just don't sell them.
So only I get one shot at this.
Not only that, if they walk out the door then I may suffer repercussions as
they talk to others on the island.
Yes, island, and they're small ones, where words fly fast.
I agree with your comment about consistency.
I am consistently laid back up front and then consistently highly aggressive
once the retainer has been paid. :-)
| |
| Kris Krieger 2006-02-01, 1:21 pm |
| "RicodJour" <ricodjour@worldemail.com> wrote in
news:1138750677.863358.74330@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
> Don wrote:
[ ... ]
>
> Always ask for juice, preferably grapefruit, but settle on whatever
> they have. It's not solely a kids drink like soda, not indicative of
> being an alcoholic like alcohol or water. People like to offer you
> things, it lets them be hospitable and it makes everyone more
> comfortable. Be gracious and accept next time.
>
> R
>
Drinking water makes people think you're an alcoholic?
So if you're a diabetic something and monitor your sugar intake (which
includes fruit juices and "cocktails", which are sugared and diluted fruit
juice), you "can't" ask for water, or ice water, because people will think
you're an alcoholic? So the only reason someone offers water is that
they're testing you?
Tell me it ain't so...
| |
|
|
"Don" <one-if-by-land@concord.com> wrote in message
news:W75Ef.9002$rH5.377@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> "RicodJour"> wrote
>
> Why?
> As I said, all of my clients are referred to me, and I'll never see them
> again...at least for business purposes.
> Most of my clients build very expensive homes on very exclusive properties
> and they just don't sell them.
> So only I get one shot at this.
That should say:
So I only get one shot at this.
> Not only that, if they walk out the door then I may suffer repercussions
> as they talk to others on the island.
> Yes, island, and they're small ones, where words fly fast.
> I agree with your comment about consistency.
> I am consistently laid back up front and then consistently highly
> aggressive once the retainer has been paid. :-)
>
>
>
| |
| Kris Krieger 2006-02-01, 1:21 pm |
| "Don" <one-if-by-land@concord.com> wrote in
news:LG3Ef.4306$Nv2.2869@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net:
> During the initial conference the LAST thing I do is offend or
> negatively react to the clients requests or comments.
That's what I was thinking. I think poeple probably use it as a symbol or
a sort of shorthand for elegance and the like. I don't personally like the
general styles, most of the time, but they do generally illustrate some
sort of harmony between structure, color, and accoutrements.
If I remember correctly, you (Don) had talked some time ago about
interpreting what the client means, and taking the
negotiations/conversation from there. The thing is that not everyone knows
the words for what they like, so they use images and symbols. Someone
might talk about "A Miami look" because they like the places shown in CSI-
Miami. The thing is to not ridicule them for watching the TV show, the
thing is to get to the heart of what they mean by the phrase - maybe they
like an open plan using bright colors, dramatic views, and so on.
The other thing is that you cannot teach people anything if you start off
by ridiculing something they liked. Maybe Arch. Digest *is* a society rag,
but maybe they're thinking of specific pictures as opposed to the "society"
thing.
Personally, if I went to a designer and said, oh, for example, "I like the
Robie House...", and, instead of probing what I do like about it, the
person ridiculed me for liking anything by FLW, I would not hire that
person. Nor would I want to listen to any further attempts at "education".
I'd just say that unfortunately, we apparently cannot do business - tho'
what I would be *thinking* would be "Well f*** you, @$$hole".
> Its a cat and mouse game at this point and I am the mouse.
The thing is that you are talking to people who have the $$ to spend on a
custom house, IOW, they aren't bound to something cheap because of having a
low budget. If they're going to pay for custom, they can take their $$
wherever they please. They are not obligated to hire you. If they hire
you, it's because you have the skills - both architectural *and* personal -
to translate their words, magazine clippings, doodles, and so on - how to
put it - in a way, it's like taking a fog, and molding it into a solid
structure, taking a dream and turning it into a living thing.
So it makes no sense to start off by ridiculing the way someone is
attempting to communicate their often nebulous dream. It's kind of like
laughing at someone because English is theor second (or third or fourth)
language and they speak with an accent and don't have an extensive
vocabulary. The better thing to do is use whatever you can - gestures,
simpler words, whatever - to communicate.
> There will be plenty of time for arguing later on.
> After I get that deposit check firmly in hand a transition takes
> place. I change from mild mannered to highly aggressive.
Aggressive, or assertive? There is a difference.
> Only after long self analysis in the distant past did I start to
> realize why some of my perspective clients were walking out the door.
> By giving them reasons to walk out the door I was causing my own
> problems.
That's a huge realization. A lot of people never get to taht point, i.e.
where they realize that they create many of their own problems.
Communication is not an absolute - it's an art. ((I won't say how many
decades it took *me* to learn that... =:-( ))
>
>
> "Pierre Levesque, AIA" <pierrelevesqueNOSPAM@connarch.com> wrote in
> message news:tt3Ef.4059$pO2.1846@trndny09...
>
>
>
| |
| RicodJour 2006-02-01, 2:21 pm |
| Kris Krieger wrote:
>
> So it makes no sense to start off by ridiculing the way someone is
> attempting to communicate their often nebulous dream.
You equate criticism and ridicule?
See if you can tell the difference:
1). Are you kidding me? That sketch of yours looks like crap. I
wouldn't throw a dead cat in that house.
2). I see what you're trying to do with the placement of the garage,
but having three garage doors the first thing people see when they
approach your house can be tricky. We may need to look at that a
little further and soften it up a bit.
Which example do you think is closer to what I meant by criticise?
R
| |
| RicodJour 2006-02-01, 2:21 pm |
| Kris Krieger wrote:
> "RicodJour" <ricodjour@worldemail.com> wrote in
>
> Drinking water makes people think you're an alcoholic?
>
> So if you're a diabetic something and monitor your sugar intake (which
> includes fruit juices and "cocktails", which are sugared and diluted fruit
> juice), you "can't" ask for water, or ice water, because people will think
> you're an alcoholic? So the only reason someone offers water is that
> they're testing you?
It's curious that you skipped my point on graciousness and commented on
the alcoholic part.
Who just asks "would you like a glass of water" when you visit their
house? Almost invariably they'll offer several choices. Accepting a
cocktail on a first visit might raise a question in the client's mind
about your drinking habits, as might refusing a drink in lieu of water.
Does that necessarily make sense? Nope.
You could ask for tea, or coffee ("Please don't go to any trouble,
instant's fine."), or ice water if you feel like it.
Water, being the most minimal of offerings, doesn't really allow the
host to cater to the guest. Water is what you give to a dog. Now,
before you jump in the deep end about water, I like it just fine. I
probably drink near half a gallon of water a day, and it is my
preferred drink at meals.
My point is that many people try to make people as comfortable in their
home as possible. They'll offer food and drink to facilitate that end.
They won't be happy until they feel they've given you something.
Refusing to take anything is refusing hospitality. In many cultures
that is an insult.
R
| |
|
| "RicodJour"> wrote
> My point is that many people try to make people as comfortable in their
> home as possible. They'll offer food and drink to facilitate that end.
> They won't be happy until they feel they've given you something.
> Refusing to take anything is refusing hospitality. In many cultures
> that is an insult.
Well, I ain't in many cultures, and spilled drinks all look the same on an
expensive set of drawings.
People that drag that stuff into the equation are frivilous and not to be
taken seriously.
I did lunch with some folks that wanted to build a new home and between the
food and their screaming brats nothing productive got done.
Little turns me off more than people that can't pull themselves away from
stuffing and pouring junk down their pieholes, unable to pry themselves away
long enough to get positive things done.
Look around, no matter where you go there's entire tribes of people with
long history's of face stuffing, but they aren't gonna do it on my dime.
Frankly, if I want to drink and have a good time with people I do so at my
own choosing.
When I'm making money thats all I'm doing.
Otherwise I'll lay on my boney XXX (as Ken would say) and play with the
baby's mama (as my old drill sgt would say).
If your way works for you then thats fine.
Everybody has to carve their own path......
| |
| RicodJour 2006-02-01, 4:22 pm |
| Don wrote:
> "RicodJour"> wrote
>
> Well, I ain't in many cultures, and spilled drinks all look the same on an
> expensive set of drawings.
I know, you're barely in this one. :O
Where exactly did the expensive set of drawings come from? We're
talking about initial encounters with prospective clients, so I don't
understand why you're bringing a set of drawings with you.
And how expensive are those drawings? Ten, fifteen sheets, you
probably print them out yourself, but even if you didn't, figure what?,
$60? Pocket change. If they spill the drinks, that set becomes the
owners'.
> People that drag that stuff into the equation are frivilous and not to be
> taken seriously.
People that worry about spilling drinks are clumsy. I should be more
worried about spilled drinks than you since I have the notebook sitting
there. You're the one who likes to tell people about taking control -
what's so difficult about politely asking them to move the drinks to
another spot where there won't be damage if someone does have a seizure
and spill something? I've never had anyone so much as bat an eye -
they just nod and look for a likely place to set the drink.
> I did lunch with some folks that wanted to build a new home and between the
> food and their screaming brats nothing productive got done.
Ground rules. While you're still on the phone with them in the initial
contact, you ask about kids and their ages. Very useful information.
If the kids are younger than about 12, I ask that we leave them at home
(I'm assuming that when you say did lunch it was out). If the lunch is
at their place and the kids are going to be home, don't do lunch.
> Little turns me off more than people that can't pull themselves away from
> stuffing and pouring junk down their pieholes, unable to pry themselves away
> long enough to get positive things done.
A glass of something isn't exactly distracting.
> Look around, no matter where you go there's entire tribes of people with
> long history's of face stuffing, but they aren't gonna do it on my dime.
If nothing else there's a lot of talking going on, or should be, and it
helps to wet the whistle.
> Frankly, if I want to drink and have a good time with people I do so at my
> own choosing.
I prefer to have a good time with whomever I'm with. I don't break out
the party hats, but there's nothing wrong with enjoying people's
company, even if there is a business transaction in the offing.
> When I'm making money thats all I'm doing.
That is about as good of a description of burnout as I've heard. It'd
be dandy to not even have to deal with the people, just do everything
by email, huh? Unfortunately, this is a handholding business. It is
also a business where it's important to put yourself in the other
person's shoes so the work will reflect their intentions, not just
yours. I have no idea how that would be possible if you didn't have at
least some affinity for the people.
That being said, I understand that your business and mine differ
greatly. I have predominately repeat business and parents passing
their kids on to me (figuratively speaking). I get involved in the
minutae of the design and construction, so I probably spend far more
time with the people than you do. Orders of magnitude greater, most
likely. My life is too short to do bad work, and it's also too short
to work for people I don't like. So I don't.
> Otherwise I'll lay on my boney XXX (as Ken would say) and play with the
> baby's mama (as my old drill sgt would say).
If baby's mama doesn't have other ideas!  ~
> If your way works for you then thats fine.
> Everybody has to carve their own path......
S'truth.
R
| |
|
| "Kris Krieger"> wrote
> "Don"> wrote
>
> That's what I was thinking. I think poeple probably use it as a symbol or
> a sort of shorthand for elegance and the like. I don't personally like
> the
> general styles, most of the time, but they do generally illustrate some
> sort of harmony between structure, color, and accoutrements.
>
> If I remember correctly, you (Don) had talked some time ago about
> interpreting what the client means, and taking the
> negotiations/conversation from there. The thing is that not everyone
> knows
> the words for what they like, so they use images and symbols. Someone
> might talk about "A Miami look" because they like the places shown in CSI-
> Miami. The thing is to not ridicule them for watching the TV show, the
> thing is to get to the heart of what they mean by the phrase - maybe they
> like an open plan using bright colors, dramatic views, and so on.
>
> The other thing is that you cannot teach people anything if you start off
> by ridiculing something they liked. Maybe Arch. Digest *is* a society
> rag,
> but maybe they're thinking of specific pictures as opposed to the
> "society"
> thing.
>
> Personally, if I went to a designer and said, oh, for example, "I like the
> Robie House...", and, instead of probing what I do like about it, the
> person ridiculed me for liking anything by FLW, I would not hire that
> person. Nor would I want to listen to any further attempts at
> "education".
> I'd just say that unfortunately, we apparently cannot do business - tho'
> what I would be *thinking* would be "Well f*** you, @$$hole".
>
>
> The thing is that you are talking to people who have the $$ to spend on a
> custom house, IOW, they aren't bound to something cheap because of having
> a
> low budget. If they're going to pay for custom, they can take their $$
> wherever they please. They are not obligated to hire you. If they hire
> you, it's because you have the skills - both architectural *and*
> personal -
> to translate their words, magazine clippings, doodles, and so on - how to
> put it - in a way, it's like taking a fog, and molding it into a solid
> structure, taking a dream and turning it into a living thing.
>
> So it makes no sense to start off by ridiculing the way someone is
> attempting to communicate their often nebulous dream. It's kind of like
> laughing at someone because English is theor second (or third or fourth)
> language and they speak with an accent and don't have an extensive
> vocabulary. The better thing to do is use whatever you can - gestures,
> simpler words, whatever - to communicate.
>
>
> Aggressive, or assertive? There is a difference.
>
>
> That's a huge realization. A lot of people never get to taht point, i.e.
> where they realize that they create many of their own problems.
Thats true, and I wouldn't have gotten to that point either except for some
unique situations.
You see, when there's no one left to blame, you have to blame yourself.
Hundreds of long days and nights in a row doing production drafting, where
the mind sort of goes into autopilot mode, allowed me to think of many
things and analyze stuff....with talk radio low in the background.
Back in the 70's I read a very influential book that made me realize that
*I* am responsible for any and all things that occur in my life, and blaming
others in any way only causes me grief in the long run.
This fact has haunted and guided me all these years.
By focusing on the things that I do to cause a relationship
(designer/client, or otherwise) to fall apart I can them work on fixing me,
for I can't fix others....nor should I try.
Over a long period of time, and trying out many things, I have largely
worked out most of the bugs in my presentation.
Its just another compartment in what I call *The Designers Toolbox*.
How to communicate with virtually anyone on any topic.
In this case, how to find out what the client is striving for, down to the
smallest detail, and transferring the information into a tangible 2d image
he can wrap his head around.
In all human interactions communication is the key to making it work.
Communication is a one way street, traffic can only flow in one direction at
any given moment.
Too many people assert their traffic but are unwilling to let the traffic in
the opposite direction flow.
This comes from that nasty habit of letting traffic flow in one direction
from TV's and radios, etc.
A TV can talk but it can't listen.
When a husband or wife is screaming at their spouse they aren't listening to
what the other is saying.
So they walk away, forever.
When the designer is busy drinking juices and other frivilous things that
undermine his credibility the clients eyes are glazing over and interest is
lost.
Then he walks away, forever.
> Communication is not an absolute - it's an art. ((I won't say how many
> decades it took *me* to learn that... =:-( ))
True, but it is backed by science.
The science of the mind.
A good place to start, is with ones self.
The things that offend you, make sure you don't do them to others.
The things that elate you, make sure you do them to others.
This stuff has been around forever but its been lost in the flotsam....
"Do unto others, as you would have them do unto you".
| |
| Frankendrip 2006-02-01, 6:21 pm |
|
"RicodJour"
> Don wrote:
>
> One area where we differ. I want people to be schooled in the social
> graces and to treat people with gentility and respect...unlike in
> newsgroups. ;) If I don't see people concerned about making the other
> person comfortable in their home, I'm not interested in working on it.
> I'm constantly evaluating/screening people, and if there's any inkling
> that they will be a problem or fail to show common courtesy and
> respect, I won't be working with them.
>
>
> I'm there for the free juice!
>
>
> You have one of those "drinking problems" like that guy in Airplane! ?
>
>
> Turning up friendly mode....hmmm. Sounds mighty calculating - friendly
> with ulterior motives. You _sure_ you're not a politician?
One could argue that you're being calculating in a certain way too.
Also, if one refuses a drink offer, that doesn't necessarily mean insult or
lack of courteousness.
If you're thirsty, have a drink if offered. If you spill a drink, so what.
Hell, bring a bottle of soda or juice or Canadian ice wine for you and your
client and offer them a drink. Once they're intoxicated enough, get them to
sign stuff.
| |
| Frankendrip 2006-02-01, 7:21 pm |
|
"RicodJour"
> Kris Krieger wrote:
>
> It's curious that you skipped my point on graciousness and commented on
> the alcoholic part.
Oh shut up. It's because your gracious part doesn't hold any water.
> Who just asks "would you like a glass of water" when you visit their
> house?
"Would you like something to drink, you... you fucking freak of a designer?"
"A tall, frosted brandy snifter of H2O would be splendid."
"Mineral water? Tap, spring, distilled"?
"Just water, you fucking freak of a client!"
:D
> Almost invariably they'll offer several choices. Accepting a
> cocktail on a first visit might raise a question in the client's mind
> about your drinking habits, as might refusing a drink in lieu of water.
> Does that necessarily make sense? Nope.
If you said "nope" I'd promptly show you the door. And a magnificent door it
is!
> You could ask for tea, or coffee ("Please don't go to any trouble,
> instant's fine."), or ice water if you feel like it.
And get them all wired and with a dry mouth. Coffee's bad for breath too.
> Water, being the most minimal of offerings, doesn't really allow the
> host to cater to the guest.
Unless you suggest that they can freely take a sip from the natural spring
that replenishes itself, burbling up in your back yard, and filled with
frollicking females.
> Water is what you give to a dog.
And minotaur-like clients.
> Now, before you jump in the deep end about water, I like it just fine. I
> probably drink near half a gallon of water a day, and it is my
> preferred drink at meals.
>
> My point is that many people try to make people as comfortable in their
> home as possible. They'll offer food and drink to facilitate that end.
> They won't be happy until they feel they've given you something.
> Refusing to take anything is refusing hospitality. In many cultures
> that is an insult.
Culture shock in your own back yard.
| |
| Frankendrip 2006-02-01, 7:21 pm |
|
"RicodJour"
> People that worry about spilling drinks are clumsy.
So simply 'worrying' about spilling drinks makes one clumsy? That doesn't
make any sense, and leads me to beleive that you need to spill yours right
now, because I think you've had one too many.
> I should be more worried about spilled drinks than you since I have the
> notebook sitting
> there.
That's just plain clumsy.
> I prefer to have a good time with whomever I'm with. I don't break out
> the party hats, but there's nothing wrong with enjoying people's
> company, even if there is a business transaction in the offing.
>
I dislike party hats. If a client offered me one, though... Maybe if I were
on some exotic planet..
[color=darkred]
> That is about as good of a description of burnout as I've heard. It'd
> be dandy to not even have to deal with the people, just do everything
> by email, huh?
I imagine that, for some, people are a necessary evil in the process of
making money, that if they had it their way, they'd do without them
altogether.
> Unfortunately, this is a handholding business.
Just be careful of unexpected hand-tremors. Otherwise you may be viewed as a
clumsy CAD.
> It is also a business where it's important to put yourself in the other
> person's shoes so the work will reflect their intentions, not just
> yours.
"Say, Joe?!"
"Ya Rico?"
"Nice shoes you have here in the hallway..."
"Ya, they're not bad. Got 'em for a few bucks at Trippin' Tailors."
"Oh ya?"
"Ya."
"May I try them on?"
"What?"
"You heard me."
> My life is too short to do bad work, and it's also too short
> to work for people I don't like. So I don't.
"Hey! Where are you going?! Hey, come back!"
The client's baby's mama?! Don't do it!
Accept the drink if you must, but don't play with the baby's mama!
[color=darkred]
>
> S'truth.
Shrooms.
| |
| Frankendrip 2006-02-01, 7:21 pm |
| "Don"
> After I get that deposit check firmly in hand a transition takes place.
> I change from mild mannered to highly aggressive.
That would really tick some clients off, including me, depending on what you
mean of course.
I might call you on it, and ask something like, "What's with the change in
attitude?".
[color=darkred]
Well of course... And you say it with your snoot well up in the air, and
then a wink and smile as it comes back down again... and then backtrack with
"But seriously guys, Architectural Digest is lame."
| |
|
| "Frankendrip"> wrote
> "RicodJour"
>
> Shrooms.
LOL
| |
| RicodJour 2006-02-01, 8:21 pm |
|
Frankendrip wrote:
> "RicodJour"
>
> So simply 'worrying' about spilling drinks makes one clumsy? That doesn't
> make any sense, and leads me to beleive that you need to spill yours right
> now, because I think you've had one too many.
>
>
> That's just plain clumsy.
>
>
> I dislike party hats. If a client offered me one, though... Maybe if I were
> on some exotic planet..
>
>
> I imagine that, for some, people are a necessary evil in the process of
> making money, that if they had it their way, they'd do without them
> altogether.
>
>
> Just be careful of unexpected hand-tremors. Otherwise you may be viewed as a
> clumsy CAD.
>
>
> "Say, Joe?!"
>
> "Ya Rico?"
>
> "Nice shoes you have here in the hallway..."
>
> "Ya, they're not bad. Got 'em for a few bucks at Trippin' Tailors."
>
> "Oh ya?"
>
> "Ya."
>
> "May I try them on?"
>
> "What?"
>
> "You heard me."
>
>
> "Hey! Where are you going?! Hey, come back!"
>
>
> The client's baby's mama?! Don't do it!
> Accept the drink if you must, but don't play with the baby's mama!
>
>
> Shrooms.
Apparently. =:O
R
| |
| Frankendrip 2006-02-01, 8:21 pm |
|
"3D Peruna"
> I've started to try and read clients to know if they're the kind of client
> that no amount of fee will be enough to deal with them. If they're THAT
> kind of client, I do my best to politely explain that
> they really don't want to work with us because their project doesn't fit
> what we do.
The internal logic or value of that statement doesn't sit well with me.
First, I'd suggest that you call a spade a spade and say 'I' would rather
pass on the project, if that's how you feel.
Shifting the issue onto the client, so to speak, even in parting, is a
copout, especially given that their project doesn't fit what 'you' do, if
that's the case.
Second, forget about placing wants into a client's mind. It's bad science.
Speak only of your wants.
Lastly, I suggest you shmooze with or make a note of professional
"colleagues" who, ideally, are sufficiently different from you in style and
attitude, etc., so that you have references for clients who might ask for
and be better matched/served and so you leave them and your image better
off.
> but the amount of pain some clients cause...
And architects/builders/designers too, no doubt.
| |
|
| "Frankendrip"> wrote
> "Don"
>
> That would really tick some clients off, including me, depending on what
> you mean of course.
> I might call you on it, and ask something like, "What's with the change in
> attitude?".
No change in attitude as far as the interaction with the client.
Only in how I execute the design process.
You see, the initial communication with the client is the key to gathering
the *real* ideas the client wants in his home.
This is imperative.
This is also why I was so strict regarding Rico's mention of drinking stuff
and this and that.
Notice also that Kris called this interaction an *art*, and I agree.
We're talking about people that are going to spend $1-4mil for a new home,
this is no place to be dikkin around with silly frivolties and the limp
wrists better not even go there.
Now, maybe some do not understand what I am talking about, or maybe I am not
writing this stuff clearly enough, but the fact remains that this is my
livlihood and I've been pretty successful at for some time.
I know what I'm talking about.
| |
|
| "Frankendrip"> wrote
> "3D Peruna"
>
>
> The internal logic or value of that statement doesn't sit well with me.
> First, I'd suggest that you call a spade a spade and say 'I' would rather
> pass on the project, if that's how you feel.
Wanna get rid of a PITA client?
Here's the infamous *Don's One-Two Knockout*.
PITA Client: "Well Don, you come highly regarded and your presentation was
very strong so my wife and I would like to hire you to design our new
multi-gazillion dollar home on a private island in the middle of the North
Atlantic Ocean. What do we have to do to get this moving forward?"
Dynamic Don: "OK, sounds good, then I need to collect a deposit check for
the design and get you in the schedule, let me consult my ledger. Yes, I
have a place right here, this coming Nov. 17th at 11am. We can get together
at that time and I will have the Preliminary Design package assembled for
your preview. And of course I have to receive your deposit of $XX,000.00
prior to scheduling the work on the design and the balance is due upon
completion."
XX : fill in the number you think you'll deserve.
If he walks, you win.
If he stays, you win.
Thats what I call a win-win situation. ;-)
| |
| Kris Krieger 2006-02-02, 5:21 pm |
| "RicodJour" <ricodjour@worldemail.com> wrote in
news:1138816308.005897.231850@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
> Kris Krieger wrote:
>
> You equate criticism and ridicule?
>
> See if you can tell the difference:
> 1). Are you kidding me? That sketch of yours looks like crap. I
> wouldn't throw a dead cat in that house.
> 2). I see what you're trying to do with the placement of the garage,
> but having three garage doors the first thing people see when they
> approach your house can be tricky. We may need to look at that a
> little further and soften it up a bit.
>
> Which example do you think is closer to what I meant by criticise?
>
> R
>
As I remember it, you said something to the effect that, if someone told
you that they "want their house to be on the cover of Arch Digest", you'd
tell them something like, that it was just a crappy society rag and so on.
I don't have the post up right now, but I did when I wrote my post.
Maybe I misread your intent, but, IMO, it sounded, to me, like ridicule, or
at least, verging on it. Which in itself *might* point to a potential
communication issue on that point. Obviously, other people would of course
not read it the same way.
At any rate, that bit (about the magazine) got my mind wandering along the
lines of communication, and the fact that not everyone communicates in the
same way. And that's what I wrote about. Not every point was directed at
you personally - I was mainly writing, as above, about differences in
communication and the fact that, as with all other things, "one size never
fits all".
As an aside, I know what the formal definitions, and the thesaurus entries,
are for both "ridicule" and 'criticism". I also know that, in popular
useage, the two are often used almost interchangeably. So, in all honesty,
well, no, I don't necessarily know what you personally mean by one versus
the other. I don't recall that point - I just recall my interpretation of
the one comment. And not because I felt personally insulted (I don't like
AD either, because it seems to deal in ostentatious "celebrities"), but
because of the potential communication issue.
I'm not saying I expressed it supurbly, but that, too, is part of the
tangle of spaghetti called 'communication'.
| |
| Kris Krieger 2006-02-02, 5:21 pm |
| "RicodJour" <ricodjour@worldemail.com> wrote in
news:1138817422.256459.304150@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
> Kris Krieger wrote:
>
> It's curious that you skipped my point on graciousness and commented
> on the alcoholic part.
Because I was astounded by that point.
> Who just asks "would you like a glass of water" when you visit their
> house? Almost invariably they'll offer several choices. Accepting a
> cocktail on a first visit might raise a question in the client's mind
> about your drinking habits, as might refusing a drink in lieu of
> water.
> Does that necessarily make sense? Nope.
>
> You could ask for tea, or coffee ("Please don't go to any trouble,
> instant's fine."), or ice water if you feel like it.
>
> Water, being the most minimal of offerings, doesn't really allow the
> host to cater to the guest. Water is what you give to a dog. Now,
> before you jump in the deep end about water, I like it just fine. I
> probably drink near half a gallon of water a day, and it is my
> preferred drink at meals.
>
> My point is that many people try to make people as comfortable in
> their home as possible. They'll offer food and drink to facilitate
> that end.
> They won't be happy until they feel they've given you something.
> Refusing to take anything is refusing hospitality. In many cultures
> that is an insult.
All of that might be true - and when visiting another culture, it's of
course one of the points on ought to brush up on, as one would do before
any trip. There are at least some tour books that offer such snippets of
cultural information.
That is not the point that amazed me. I remain amazed that there would be
that sort of assumption made. Maybe someone just plain doesn't *want* more
caffeine, or instant coffee, or sugared soda (a lot of poeple don't keep
diet soda on hand), or so on. Would it not be a part of "graciousness" to
simply accept a person's preference, rather than make negative assumptions
based upon a preference for something simple?
| |
| Kris Krieger 2006-02-02, 6:21 pm |
| "Don" <one-if-by-land@concord.com> wrote in
news:b77Ef.9034$rH5.8341@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net:
> "RicodJour"> wrote
>
> Well, I ain't in many cultures, and spilled drinks all look the same
> on an expensive set of drawings.
> People that drag that stuff into the equation are frivilous and not to
> be taken seriously.
> I did lunch with some folks that wanted to build a new home and
> between the food and their screaming brats nothing productive got
> done. Little turns me off more than people that can't pull themselves
> away from stuffing and pouring junk down their pieholes, unable to pry
> themselves away long enough to get positive things done.
Well, that's another point.
Personally, I'm with you. IMO, stuff the face *before* meetings.
If nothing else, it's kind of disgusting when people eat while talking,
especially about what is supposed to be a professional matter. They spit
crumbs, they display the semi-chewed conents of the buccal cavity, they
drool, they knock food around, and all sorts of other things that IMO are
kind or rude. To me, professional activities are supposed to be precisely
that - professional. In such circumstances, I am very different from how I
am personally - *because I don't want there to be any misunderstandings
based upon any over-famialiarity on the part of any party involved*.
THe thing is that, in my expereince, the instant people start thinking of
themselves as your best buddy, is the instant when they start *expecting
and demanding* personal concessions - oh, could you just do this one thing
extra for me, and oh, can you give me a break on the price sine we're, well
you know, such good friends and all... And so on, and on. It too easily
becomes uncomfortably close to an attempt at manipulation-through-guilt.
It also works the other way around - when I've hired someone, and they
started acting as though you're close long-time best frineds, they have
invariably tries to shortcut me or otherwise rip me off, or do shoddy work.
Because of past experiences, I do not trust overly-familiar people.
Kids would be a whole 'nother matter. Children don't belong in
professional meetings - most (IMO) are simply uncontrolled brats.
And it's not as though I think this way because I'm an idiot when it comes
to other cultures (or for that matter, economic/professional classes), nor
have I lived in the same small town for 50 years without ever having gone
anywhere else. When I've dealt *professionally* with people, I've done
well - OTOH, problems had invariably arisen (for me, in my own experience)
when the personal/familiar invades the professional.
Obviously, other people have different experiences; this is merely my own
take on things - YMMV.
> Look around, no matter where you go there's entire tribes of people
> with long history's of face stuffing, but they aren't gonna do it on
> my dime. Frankly, if I want to drink and have a good time with people
> I do so at my own choosing.
I'm with you there. There is a certain level of civility that goes hand in
hand with a professional meeting, but I personally have never liked the
"let's talk over lunch" thing. Been there, done that, and all that usually
transpires is, in my experience, drivel.
> When I'm making money thats all I'm doing.
> Otherwise I'll lay on my boney XXX (as Ken would say) and play with
> the baby's mama (as my old drill sgt would say).
>
> If your way works for you then thats fine.
> Everybody has to carve their own path......
>
>
True.
| |
| Kris Krieger 2006-02-02, 6:21 pm |
| "Don" <one-if-by-land@concord.com> wrote in
news:lV9Ef.4507$Nv2.2286@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net:
> "Kris Krieger"> wrote
>
> Thats true, and I wouldn't have gotten to that point either except for
> some unique situations.
> You see, when there's no one left to blame, you have to blame
> yourself.
Oh, don't I know it =:-o !
"If I knew then what I know now..."
> Hundreds of long days and nights in a row doing production
> drafting, where the mind sort of goes into autopilot mode, allowed me
> to think of many things and analyze stuff....with talk radio low in
> the background. Back in the 70's I read a very influential book that
> made me realize that *I* am responsible for any and all things that
> occur in my life, and blaming others in any way only causes me grief
> in the long run. This fact has haunted and guided me all these years.
I wish I'd read that book in the 70's! There are so many problems that one
can avoid simply by realizing that, if one makes one's onw problems, that
also means that one can probably fix them, too (esp. by learing to avoid
them). It's also ironic that taking responsibility is also liberating,
because it reduces the amount of influence/control over your life that is
in the hands of other, and unpredictable, people.
> By focusing on the things that I do to cause a relationship
> (designer/client, or otherwise) to fall apart I can them work on
> fixing me, for I can't fix others....nor should I try.
Exactly. And sometimes, people just don't mesh well. Nobody's fault, it's
simply that different people are just that, different.
> Over a long period of time, and trying out many things, I have largely
> worked out most of the bugs in my presentation.
> Its just another compartment in what I call *The Designers Toolbox*.
That's a good concept. Order facilitates activities.
> How to communicate with virtually anyone on any topic.
> In this case, how to find out what the client is striving for, down to
> the smallest detail, and transferring the information into a tangible
> 2d image he can wrap his head around.
> In all human interactions communication is the key to making it work.
> Communication is a one way street, traffic can only flow in one
> direction at any given moment.
> Too many people assert their traffic but are unwilling to let the
> traffic in the opposite direction flow.
Very pithy, I like that analogy. Uncontrolled intersections are hazardous
and the "rules of the road" exist for a reason. I think that's why I
always preferred to keep things very professional - those are rules that I
understand. Familiar/personal "traffic" is something I never understood
well, because there are no real rules of the road. By remaining
professional, clear rules can be established and maintained. Such as, no,
I ill not do work gratis because you invited me to lunch. And so on.
> This comes from that nasty habit of letting traffic flow in one
> direction from TV's and radios, etc.
> A TV can talk but it can't listen.
> When a husband or wife is screaming at their spouse they aren't
> listening to what the other is saying.
> So they walk away, forever.
True in any/all interactions...
> When the designer is busy drinking juices and other frivilous things
> that undermine his credibility the clients eyes are glazing over and
> interest is lost.
> Then he walks away, forever.
Or at the least, IMO, frivolity (good word BTW) undermines a project.
Not the same as being humorless,of course - humor relieves tension. But
that's different from frivolity. When one looks and behaves in a
professional manner, one is seen as having a professional, business-like
mindset. If one dresses and behaves frivolously, one is not seen as having
a professional, business-like mindset. It's that simple. A professional
expresses individuality through interesting ideas, solutions to problems,
and so on, not through dressing like Elton John or Brittany Spears.
>
> True, but it is backed by science.
> The science of the mind.
Also true. OTOH, as much as I've learned about psychology and sociology,
the application of those things in my personal life is something that
continues to escape me. IOW, some things are talents. Learning can
mitigate a lack of talent, but can't create talent where none exists.
> A good place to start, is with ones self.
> The things that offend you, make sure you don't do them to others.
> The things that elate you, make sure you do them to others.
> This stuff has been around forever but its been lost in the
> flotsam.... "Do unto others, as you would have them do unto you".
Exactly.
| |
|
| "Kris Krieger"> wrote
> All of that might be true - and when visiting another culture, it's of
> course one of the points on ought to brush up on, as one would do before
> any trip. There are at least some tour books that offer such snippets of
> cultural information.
Thats exactly right and it irks me to no end when I hear these whiney people
moaning that the citizens of the US should be more accomodating to those
that come here from different parts of the world.
Pu-leez.
I went to Germany on a spur of the moment and vested my time in learning
THEIR culture, language, customs, etc.
Never in my wildest nightmare would I have ever imagined requiring a country
to change its way to accommodate me.
Signage everywhere here is duplitious in what its saying and in the past 30
years there has been an abundance of people trying to shear themselves and
others away from the American culture - African American, Italian American,
German American, etc. and I hate to inform these misguided souls but there
is no such thing.
Melting pot my XXX.
When you take a piece of steel and throw it into a vat of molten cheddar the
steel won't blend.
An old friend of mine started a culture cleaving business called the German
American Club here in the Cape back in the 80's and every year they have a
huge deal called Oktoberfest and thousands attend. Whenever we see each
other he always asks why I don't come by the Oktoberfest and one of these
days I'll have the nutz to tell him straight out that I don't believe in
that shit. I've been to the real Oktoberfest, in Munchen, and it wasn't
called the German American Oktoberfest.
Silly people and the goofy hoops they contort themselves through........
| |
| Kris Krieger 2006-02-02, 7:21 pm |
| "Don" <one-if-by-land@concord.com> wrote in
news:RVeEf.9190$rH5.1664@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net:
> "Frankendrip"> wrote
>
> Wanna get rid of a PITA client?
> Here's the infamous *Don's One-Two Knockout*.
>
> PITA Client: "Well Don, you come highly regarded and your presentation
> was very strong so my wife and I would like to hire you to design our
> new multi-gazillion dollar home on a private island in the middle of
> the North Atlantic Ocean. What do we have to do to get this moving
> forward?"
>
> Dynamic Don: "OK, sounds good, then I need to collect a deposit check
> for the design and get you in the schedule, let me consult my ledger.
> Yes, I have a place right here, this coming Nov. 17th at 11am. We can
> get together at that time and I will have the Preliminary Design
> package assembled for your preview. And of course I have to receive
> your deposit of $XX,000.00 prior to scheduling the work on the design
> and the balance is due upon completion."
>
> XX : fill in the number you think you'll deserve.
> If he walks, you win.
> If he stays, you win.
> Thats what I call a win-win situation. ;-)
>
That seems to make sense.
As long as XX is based upon reasonable parameters (your time, your
materials costs, your skills, experience and education, and so on), and
especially if your price is either within the local range of what's
reasonable and expected, or, is reasonable and expected for your level of
work, it ought to be what the client *expects* to pay. If they have more
brains than a turnip, they ought to have already looked into such things.
And I figure you've also probably gone over most of that, by the time the
check comes out.
So yeah, if they start heming'n'hawing at that point, seems to me they're
probably just yanking your chain - either they really can't afford the
place, or they're skinflints who will try to lowball you at every turn, or
they have no idea whatsoever about what the heck they're doing. Unless
you're desperate, none of those sounds very workable.
| |
| Kris Krieger 2006-02-02, 7:21 pm |
| "Don" <one-if-by-land@concord.com> wrote in
news:DsvEf.10720$vU2.9387@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net:
> "Kris Krieger"> wrote
>
> Thats exactly right and it irks me to no end when I hear these whiney
> people moaning that the citizens of the US should be more accomodating
> to those that come here from different parts of the world.
> Pu-leez.
I'm with you there.
My grandparents came here from Poland (maternal) and Slovkia (paternal);
none spoke English when they arrived. They adapted to American culture,
but still retained the parts of their culture that they chose to. They
never called themselves "Polish Americans" or "Czech Americans". I also
have not lost all of my Slavic heritage.
Now, admittedly, I do not consider myself merely "Caucasian", because 30-50
yrs ago, WASP culture did not look kindly on Slavs (or Italinas, or other
non-Wasp groups); I know what it's like to have teachers and guidance
counsellors say "you're just a dumb X (X=ethnic insult of choice) so don't
you even think about even a 2 year college, because you'll just flunk out
anyway".
*However*:
None of that means I'm anything other than "an American". Rather than
remaining somehow supposedly 'separate from' American culture, what
immigrants in the past did was first establish a foothold in the culture
(with neighborhoods as a safe place, so to speak, for the first
generation), and then, as succeeding generations came along, fought for
their right to be equal citizens. I don't know that, in my generation at
least, anyone ever really thought about forcing America to adapt itself to
them. You learn English, you learn the history, you learn the culture.
I personally don't see that it can be more comfortable or preferable to
remain forever a "separate culture-within-a-culture". It's uncooperative.
Certainly injustices exist, but those are never overcome by remaing
separate. If one does not want to be an American, one should not leave
one's place of origin. I don't mean that is a "love it or leave it" sense,
it's just that *any* time one moves to another country, one is sort-of
shooting oneself in the proverbial foot if one intentionally and
purposfully isolates oneself.
This is even true when you move to a different region of the US. I've
lived in the NE, the SE, the W, and the MidWest (Wisconsin), as well as the
Pacific Northwest in Canada (Vancouver), and Ontario (Toronto area).
Each area is differnt from the others. The colloquial language and word-
usage is different, there are different customs, different mannerisms,
different attitudes, and so on. So even tho' the language is all English,
there are still things that are different.
And regardless of where one goes, one can either adapt, and get along with
others - or one can remain isolated, remain strangers, which generally only
serves to make the community hostile towards one.
> I went to Germany on a spur of the moment and vested my time in
> learning THEIR culture, language, customs, etc.
> Never in my wildest nightmare would I have ever imagined requiring a
> country to change its way to accommodate me.
Maybe you're just not sufficiently self-obsessed and self-delusional ;)
> Signage everywhere here is duplitious in what its saying and in the
> past 30 years there has been an abundance of people trying to shear
> themselves and others away from the American culture - African
> American, Italian American, German American, etc. and I hate to inform
> these misguided souls but there is no such thing.
>
> Melting pot my XXX.
> When you take a piece of steel and throw it into a vat of molten
> cheddar the steel won't blend.
>
> An old friend of mine started a culture cleaving business called the
> German American Club here in the Cape back in the 80's and every year
> they have a huge deal called Oktoberfest and thousands attend.
> Whenever we see each other he always asks why I don't come by the
> Oktoberfest and one of these days I'll have the nutz to tell him
> straight out that I don't believe in that shit. I've been to the real
> Oktoberfest, in Munchen, and it wasn't called the German American
> Oktoberfest.
>
> Silly people and the goofy hoops they contort themselves
> through........
The thing is that these are not cultures, but cultural remnants. I've
never been to a real Oktoberfest, just a couple of the US versions.
They're fine for what they are, but what they are not is the original
culture.
In the end, no matter how much one tries to isolate oneself in a subgroup,
the original/"real" culture cannot remain untouched. For one thing, any
culture is a living thing that changes over time. For another, the numbers
are stacked against any (except for a very few tiny groups of poeple) group
living in total isolation from the rest of America. Any group which
immigrates both adapts to the prevailing culture, and also influences the
prevailing culture.
Certianly, US culture has changed so much that I doubt those who
participated in the Revolotion would recognize it. Partof that is the
natural course of any culture, but a lot of it is due to the American
culture's adoption of the cultures of all the immigrant groups who've come
here. And to some extent, of the First Nations who have withstood
historical efforts to exterminate them.
No culture is stagnant.
IMO, US "Oktoberfest" is basically a reason for people to party, be in a
good mood, have a good time, wear costumes, and have some fun. Sort of
like a huge "theme" tailgate party. I certainly can understand the desire
to maintain various aspects of the cultures of one's parents and
grandparents, but that's the point - it's not the preservation 'in toto' of
a culture, it's holding onto various aspects of that culture. I do think a
lot of people lose that point. Also, given that I'd learned a thing or two
<g!> about how genetics work, and the origins of peoples, I don't see as
much difference between peoples, as do some folks.
So I'd say, take Oktoberfest for what it is. It'll never be "the real
McCoy" simply because this isn't Germany, so it's of course Americanized.
Just as you probably became culturaly "Germanized" during your stay there.
If one or another US-Oktoberfest looks like a good party, go have fun and
forget about it being "ersatz Deutsch" - of course it is, it's "Amerikan
Deutsch" <G!>
| |
|
| "Kris Krieger"> wrote
>
> That seems to make sense.
>
> As long as XX is based upon reasonable parameters (your time, your
> materials costs, your skills, experience and education, and so on), and
> especially if your price is either within the local range of what's
> reasonable and expected, or, is reasonable and expected for your level of
> work, it ought to be what the client *expects* to pay.
Hold up.
Remember, Paul was talking about clients he DIDN'T want to do business with
for whatever reason.
Lets presume for a minute that the client(s) he had in mind were not
reasonable, and he could detect that.
Lemme back up for a moment.
A pissed off client is worse than 10 pleased clients are good.
Read that again, let it sink in.
If you turn a client away, you have shunned him and nobody likes to be
shunned.
But, if you are more expensive than he can afford, or are busier than he can
wait for, you have given him no ammo to use against you in his conversations
with others.
Thus, you haven't shunned the client, you have simply informed him of the
nature of your business and its up to him to decide whether to do busines
with you or not.
Ever walked into a store for the first time and found that everything was
priced much higher than you were wanting to spend?
Why should a design business be any diff?
There is always someone that can under price you, so price alone should not
be your bargaining chip, as you will fail.
So you have to use quality as the means of securing a client.
Sell your quality, then follow it through.
Thats how to become successful.
And do it for 80 hours a week for a coupla decades and you may get
somewhere.
Or maybe not.
But your conscience will be clear and you'll know that you've done your
best.
| |
| Kris Krieger 2006-02-02, 10:21 pm |
| "Don" <one-if-by-land@concord.com> wrote in
news:LqxEf.10776$vU2.10631@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net:
> "Kris Krieger"> wrote
>
> Hold up.
> Remember, Paul was talking about clients he DIDN'T want to do business
> with for whatever reason.
Right, I was just saying that your position is reasonable - that if you ask
for the deposit, which is reasonable for the given situation, and they balk
and hem'n'haw, it'd make sense to assume that they're not good prospects.
IOW I was agreeing with you <g!> Just in the way that is the result of my
having the hypercomplexificationalization gene ;)
> Lets presume for a minute that the client(s) he had in mind were not
> reasonable, and he could detect that.
> Lemme back up for a moment.
> A pissed off client is worse than 10 pleased clients are good.
> Read that again, let it sink in.
> If you turn a client away, you have shunned him and nobody likes to be
> shunned.
> But, if you are more expensive than he can afford, or are busier than
> he can wait for, you have given him no ammo to use against you in his
> conversations with others.
Oh, that's definitely true. I wasn't going that far, tho', to ideas of how
to turn down someone without incensing them.
> Thus, you haven't shunned the client, you have simply informed him of
> the nature of your business and its up to him to decide whether to do
> busines with you or not.
Yes (and I'll have to keep the examples in mind ;) )
> Ever walked into a store for the first time and found that everything
> was priced much higher than you were wanting to spend?
> Why should a design business be any diff?
Oh, no reason at all. Things are what they are. OTOH, if all one wants is
a pair of Dockers, why pay $40+ at one store, when you can get the same
thing for $25 at another store. OTOH, if one specifically wants an
individually hand-made unique item individually fitted to compliment one's
appearance, one is just dopey if one things such an item will be
inexpensive - there is a price range that is reasonable or at least
expected for such items.
IOW, part of expectations is research. It's not fool-proof, but again, if
a person balks at a price, many times, it's due to lack of
research/information.
When someone is self-employed, IMO, he has the right to work on whatevver
he wants. I'm sure that *clients* don't have that same view ;) , but the
self-emoployed professional has every right to charge a premium for one
project, yet do another project for a very low price simply because the
project looks fascinating and fun, or for some other reason, or simply
because he feels like it. But that low price would be outside the usual
range (less than expected), and not something one should expect the price
for *all* projects to be below the usual range.
OTOH, clients also should do some researhc and have some idea of what is a
reasonable range (emphasis on range) of cost/price for their type of
project. Ballpark figures.
I'm probably just not explaining me meaning well.
> There is always someone that can under price you, so price alone
> should not be your bargaining chip, as you will fail.
> So you have to use quality as the means of securing a client.
> Sell your quality, then follow it through.
> Thats how to become successful.
Right. The thing is that all levels of work have a certain range, and a
consumer is wise to do some homework and learn what that range is.
OK, let me say it this way. It's like when I'm looking to buy a bit of
artwork. When I go to an art or a craft show, I go with a good
understanding of most of the processes. So if I see a turned wooden bowl
with highly detailed inlays and feet and so on, that is also unique in
design, and required a heck of a lot of skill to do, I already know that an
8" by 8" piece of that quality will probably cost, oh, for the sake of
argument I'll say about $800. OTOH, if I see a plain, common wooden box
with Home Depot hinges, well, there is no comparison; I'd expect it to be
more like $30 or so. The seller might *want* more, but I know enough to
realize that I could buy something very similar at Pier One for half that.
The point being that I already know (1) what I can afford, and (2) a
general quality and item range of what I can get for that price.
So, let's say I have $800 to spend. The person trying to sell the plain
box with the Home Depot hinges might *want* $800 for it, but I know (based
upon my understanding of the process) that it simply is not an $800 piece.
OTOH I know that the first piece *is* an $800 piece, because I know a fair
bit about the work, thought, creativity, skill -and the time and practive
it takes to acquire those things - that went into it.
Now, let's say someone goes into the same show knowing nothing. They're
looking around. They say, Oh, that detailed piece is kind of cool, I'll
buy that. So they take it to the sales table, get it all set up hand over
the credit card, and $800 rings up - and they get all shocked and appalled
and indignant and demand a lower price.
Of course the seller/artist does not <!> say "Go screw yourself, a-hole",
although the comment would IMO certainly be deserved. The artist will say
something more like, I'm sorry, but given what's involved in my work, I
really can't offer it at a lower price. If you can make it to the next
show, I'll have some smaller pieces available that might be more long the
lines of what you're looking for.
So our unknowledgable people have the sale cancelled, and go to the guy
selling the plain box. How much? $800. That's outrageous, I'll offer you
$80. Well, OkieDokie then! ((esp. since it only cost $6 and 2 hours to
make, and even $30 would be rather a generous price for it)).
Hopefully that analogy/story better makes my point re: price/cost ranges.
> And do it for 80 hours a week for a coupla decades and you may get
> somewhere.
> Or maybe not.
> But your conscience will be clear and you'll know that you've done
> your best.
Always a good feeling ;)
| |
| Frankendrip 2006-02-05, 7:21 am |
|
"Don"
> "Frankendrip"
>
> Wanna get rid of a PITA client?
> Here's the infamous *Don's One-Two Knockout*.
>
> PITA Client: "Well Don, you come highly regarded and your presentation was
> very strong so my wife and I would like to hire you to design our new
> multi-gazillion dollar home on a private island in the middle of the North
> Atlantic Ocean. What do we have to do to get this moving forward?"
>
> Dynamic Don: "OK, sounds good, then I need to collect a deposit check for
> the design and get you in the schedule, let me consult my ledger. Yes, I
> have a place right here, this coming Nov. 17th at 11am. We can get
> together at that time and I will have the Preliminary Design package
> assembled for your preview. And of course I have to receive your deposit
> of $XX,000.00 prior to scheduling the work on the design and the balance
> is due upon completion."
>
> XX : fill in the number you think you'll deserve.
> If he walks, you win.
> If he stays, you win.
> Thats what I call a win-win situation. ;-)
If only it was that simple.
I mean, just off the top...
Had you previously discussed estimates, etc.?
Had he checked your references/portfolio/etc.? What was learned?
Is your deposit/fee a reasonable amount for both your work, as well as this
kind of work in the industry in general?
Negotiation?
| |
|
| "Frankendrip"> wrote
> "Don"
>
> If only it was that simple.
It is.
Have you ever received a price on something, felt it was too much, then
sought a 2nd opinion?
Happens all the time.
> I mean, just off the top...
> Had you previously discussed estimates, etc.?
Price should never be discussed until the project has been completely
evaluated and that includes compatibility with the people involved.
> Had he checked your references/portfolio/etc.? What was learned?
None of which has bearing on my price.
> Is your deposit/fee a reasonable amount for both your work, as well as
> this kind of work in the industry in general?
Irrelevent.
My fees may not be reasonable to you, but thats none of my concern.
Walmart won't sell you a car battery for $9.97 just because thats all you
have in your pocket.
> Negotiation?
Nope. My fees are final.
After all, its MY business.
| |
| Frankendrip 2006-02-06, 6:21 am |
|
"Don"
> "Frankendrip"
>
> It is.
> Have you ever received a price on something, felt it was too much, then
> sought a 2nd opinion?
> Happens all the time.
>
>
>
> Price should never be discussed until the project has been completely
> evaluated and that includes compatibility with the people involved.
Fair enough.
>
> None of which has bearing on my price.
Your references may mention what they paid you to your new client before the
fact, and he may be
armed with that knowledge going into it, and/or a general idea of what he
"can expect" to pay.
If your client suspects that you're deliberately inflating your price just
for him...
He might also call you on it and ask; 'What's with the change/difference in
price?'. ;)
If your having to deal with particular clients warrants a special
surcharge... Do you tell them?
Do you include and show them a little finely-printed section just at the
bottom of the contract, called, "PITAC: $'______'; PITAC level: 0 [_] 1[_]
2 [_] 3[_]..."?
>
> Irrelevent.
"This is an average project, Mr. Doe, and I'm willing to do it, but I want
you to understand that some kinds of, ah, 'client engagement', while
perfectly fine and nice, may add a little to the bill, if that's ok with
you."
....
"What? PITAC? Oh. Well that stands for 'Pain In The XXX Client', of course,
and those are their levels...
While we're at it, could you please sign right beside where I've marked an
'X' in the box beside PITAC 9? Thanks."
> My fees may not be reasonable to you, but thats none of my concern.
> Walmart won't sell you a car battery for $9.97 just because thats all you
> have in your pocket.
Apparently, rich people and investors can inflate the price of everything in
a region, thus making it more difficult for others there to make ends
meet... Which is kind of ironic in an odd sort of way-- (that I haven't yet
wrapped my head around to my satisfaction)-- when you consider something
like Walmart and its effects on local businesses and culture.
>
> Nope. My fees are final.
> After all, its MY business.
Alternative designer recommendations?
| |
| Frankendrip 2006-02-06, 5:21 pm |
|
"Don"
> When you take a piece of steel and throw it into a vat of molten cheddar
> the steel won't blend.
=:>
| |
|
| "Frankendrip"> wrote
> "Don"
>
> Fair enough.
>
>
> Your references may mention what they paid you to your new client before
> the fact, and he may be
> armed with that knowledge going into it, and/or a general idea of what he
> "can expect" to pay.
> If your client suspects that you're deliberately inflating your price just
> for him...
> He might also call you on it and ask; 'What's with the change/difference
> in price?'. ;)
> If your having to deal with particular clients warrants a special
> surcharge... Do you tell them?
> Do you include and show them a little finely-printed section just at the
> bottom of the contract, called, "PITAC: $'______'; PITAC level: 0 [_]
> 1[_] 2 [_] 3[_]..."?
>
>
> "This is an average project, Mr. Doe, and I'm willing to do it, but I want
> you to understand that some kinds of, ah, 'client engagement', while
> perfectly fine and nice, may add a little to the bill, if that's ok with
> you."
> ...
> "What? PITAC? Oh. Well that stands for 'Pain In The XXX Client', of
> course, and those are their levels...
> While we're at it, could you please sign right beside where I've marked an
> 'X' in the box beside PITAC 9? Thanks."
>
>
> Apparently, rich people and investors can inflate the price of everything
> in a region, thus making it more difficult for others there to make ends
> meet... Which is kind of ironic in an odd sort of way-- (that I haven't
> yet wrapped my head around to my satisfaction)-- when you consider
> something like Walmart and its effects on local businesses and culture.
>
>
> Alternative designer recommendations?
When you pick it apart piece by piece anything can fail, I guess.
But my presentation is not delivered piece by piece, so it is not prone to
such things.
All projects are different, and there is an in depth back & forth
communication between myself and the client so that I might find out their
true goals and they can discover whether I am the designer of their dreams.
;-)
It is during this little play of words that I may determine that the client
is a PITA and will adjust my presentation accordingly.
I can't go into the nuances and details of how this is done for it is a
learned approach that must be instantly variable upon each and every word
that is played.
Keep in mind, that past history is no indication of future performance.
In other words, though I may have designed a project for Joe for $X that in
no way means that I will design a project for his brother Jack for the same
amount.
As I said, they're all different.
Too, in an area where building, and design, is king there is a continuing
state of flux.
What I paid a mechanical engineer last week may not be what he will charge
next week.
Energy Calculations can vary per island and printing costs have never slid
backwards.
BTW: These are pretty small islands that I design on and the word gets
around pretty quickly.
(In spite of all the negativism the media and the LIEberals spew my own
experience over a long period of time has shown over and over again that the
people with the most wealth are not the nastiest people on the block. In
fact the reverse is true, they are kind, communicative, educated,
experienced and not in an immediate hurry. They don't mind paying for
quality and realize that quality takes time, and they don't usually nit pick
things to death. All of this contributes to tremendous job satisfaction on
my part and I firmly believe enhances the overall project resulting in a
much better end result all the way around. I mean, who wants to work for a
tight fisted contractor that squeezes every single cent out of everything
including your fee and then demand that the whole thing be done by close of
business tomorrow? Been there, done that, still have the open wounds all
around that rusty sheriffs badge to prove it)
Really, the client is at the mercy of the designer and its best if he
cooperates and trusts his reference.
Fortunately for my clients I am a person driven by his conscience and I can
truthfully say that every single one of my clients has received far more
than he bargained for and 10 fold better service than he will receive
anywhere in SW FL.
I stake my reputation on it, all 20 years and 2 weeks worth of it. :-)
All of this may be difficult for an *employee* to grasp and thats perfectly
understandable.
I was one of them for a long time and hadn't the vaguest idea of the full
impact of learning how to run a successful business.
Apparently many people are not fast learners about this stuff because 9 out
of 10 new businesses fail within the first 5 years.
But having went through just about every business nightmare one can imagine,
and having done so the hardest way possible, and emerged out the otherside
seemingly unscathed (the scars are not visible under normal clothing ;-) )
I can honestly say that I no longer have the capacity, or maybe I should say
endurance, to stoop to the level of employee status ever again. Next to
being in a public school or a public prison (whats the diff?) being an
employee has got to be the most demeaning position any person can endure.
The equivalent to being raped and robbed continuously for 8hrs a day 50
weeks a year. No matter how good one might think their employment position
might be its based on the viewpoint of someone that hasn't the slightest
idea of what true freedom is all about. But that IS what its all about.
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