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Home > Archive > Architecture > May 2007 > Is there a Heimlich Manoeuvre for cluelessness?
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Is there a Heimlich Manoeuvre for cluelessness?
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| Michael Bulatovich 2007-05-23, 5:25 pm |
| I recently went to a meeting with a new contact wants a fee for a project.
The site plan is completely unviable, and anyone who thinks it is is
delusional, or completely unfamiliar with real estate development in the
developed world. (E.g..: It has no parking and probably requires over 300
spots.) I tell the guy this, and you know what he says?
In his windowless 8x12 office filled with boxes, behind an unpainted
masonite door, he waves off the inconvenient fact and says, "Yeah, but how
much?" I tell him 5-6% as a rule of thumb, and then he asks, "Yeah, but how
much is it going to cost to build?"
--
MichaelB
www.michaelbulatovich.ca
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| "Michael Bulatovich"> wrote
>I recently went to a meeting with a new contact wants a fee for a project.
>The site plan is completely unviable, and anyone who thinks it is is
>delusional, or completely unfamiliar with real estate development in the
>developed world. (E.g..: It has no parking and probably requires over 300
>spots.) I tell the guy this, and you know what he says?
>
> In his windowless 8x12 office filled with boxes, behind an unpainted
> masonite door, he waves off the inconvenient fact and says, "Yeah, but how
> much?" I tell him 5-6% as a rule of thumb, and then he asks, "Yeah, but
> how much is it going to cost to build?"
Doncha just luv people like that?
I try to screen them people out on the phone.
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| Ken S. Tucker 2007-05-24, 3:25 am |
| On May 23, 2:29 pm, "Michael Bulatovich" <Ple...@dont.try> wrote:
> I recently went to a meeting with a new contact wants a fee for a project.
> The site plan is completely unviable, and anyone who thinks it is is
> delusional, or completely unfamiliar with real estate development in the
> developed world. (E.g..: It has no parking and probably requires over 300
> spots.) I tell the guy this, and you know what he says?
>
> In his windowless 8x12 office filled with boxes, behind an unpainted
> masonite door, he waves off the inconvenient fact and says, "Yeah, but how
> much?" I tell him 5-6% as a rule of thumb, and then he asks, "Yeah, but how
> much is it going to cost to build?"
>
> --
>
> MichaelBwww.michaelbulatovich.ca
I had a position as a "Quotation Specialist",
in an electronics firm, meaning, when an
RFQ (Request For Quote), came in it usually
landed on my desk. I produced a policy that
if the fuckin' RFQ was near a $million, we're
going to charge for the quote.
The problem is pulling a full assed quote, which
is legal document, together, so charge for the
quote. $5k covers a week or two, zilch on a
$million project.
My attitude is this, the customer is likely to
use your ideas when they get hard, so a
response to an RFQ is really a consultancy.
Good consultants aren't cheap and free.
So charge for the Quote.
Ken
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| On May 23, 5:29 pm, "Michael Bulatovich" <Ple...@dont.try> wrote:
> I recently went to a meeting with a new contact wants a fee for a project.
> The site plan is completely unviable, and anyone who thinks it is is
> delusional, or completely unfamiliar with real estate development in the
> developed world. (E.g..: It has no parking and probably requires over 300
> spots.) I tell the guy this, and you know what he says?
>
> In his windowless 8x12 office filled with boxes, behind an unpainted
> masonite door, he waves off the inconvenient fact and says, "Yeah, but how
> much?" I tell him 5-6% as a rule of thumb, and then he asks, "Yeah, but how
> much is it going to cost to build?"
>
> --
>
> MichaelBwww.michaelbulatovich.ca
he has a valid point. You say 6% and the next guy says 8% but the
next guy can bring the project in 25% cheaper. He wants to know what
your projects typically cost and what your fees typically are.
Otherwise, he's just handing you a blank check. I suppose would say
that the client was just passing things on the Mike, but I think he
was just doing a bit of research. After all, Mike could make it a
very, very expensive building or cheap it down. If Don wants the
work, he should explain what he's willing to do to earn his coin. Don
usually designed the Taj Mahal. Maybe the guy wants a nice, simple
box.
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"Pat" <groups@artisticphotography.us> wrote in message
news:1180026690.994296.112020@h2g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> On May 23, 5:29 pm, "Michael Bulatovich" <Ple...@dont.try> wrote:
>
> he has a valid point. You say 6% and the next guy says 8% but the
> next guy can bring the project in 25% cheaper. He wants to know what
> your projects typically cost and what your fees typically are.
> Otherwise, he's just handing you a blank check. I suppose would say
> that the client was just passing things on the Mike, but I think he
> was just doing a bit of research. After all, Mike could make it a
> very, very expensive building or cheap it down. If Don wants the
> work, he should explain what he's willing to do to earn his coin. Don
> usually designed the Taj Mahal. Maybe the guy wants a nice, simple
> box.
I designed gazillions of plain vanilla's before I got a taste of euphoria.
As I told Mike, I would have cleared a lot of this preliminary stuff up on
the phone.
Every situation is different so in Mikes defense, he did what he thought was
necessary.
No fault in that, hell, I wasted more than my share of hours on worthless
contacts.
Unfortunately there are a lot of people out there with champagne tastes and
Shaeffer beer budget.
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| On May 24, 1:31 pm, "Don" <one-if-by-l...@concord.com> wrote:
> "Pat" <gro...@artisticphotography.us> wrote in message
>
> news:1180026690.994296.112020@h2g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I designed gazillions of plain vanilla's before I got a taste of euphoria.
> As I told Mike, I would have cleared a lot of this preliminary stuff up on
> the phone.
> Every situation is different so in Mikes defense, he did what he thought was
> necessary.
> No fault in that, hell, I wasted more than my share of hours on worthless
> contacts.
> Unfortunately there are a lot of people out there with champagne tastes and
> Shaeffer beer budget.
I have a friend who has earned pretty good coin for the last 3 years
and has saved absolutely zero. zilch. nada. He wants to demo the
old homestead and build new. bank says he's good to go with a
mortgage at about 3X his income, which will produce a modest-to-good
upstate home. I looked at his budget and at his known bills: taxes,
utilities, car payment, etc. At the end, he'd have $300 a month to
live on. I said that there's no way you can live on $10 per day
(including food). I think that's champagne tastes without even being
able to afford Shaeffer beer.
(My recommendations to him: sell the car and buy a beater without a
payment. it will over double his disposable income until he grows into
the mortgage).
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| 3D Peruna 2007-05-24, 1:25 pm |
| >
> he has a valid point. You say 6% and the next guy says 8% but the
> next guy can bring the project in 25% cheaper. He wants to know what
> your projects typically cost and what your fees typically are.
> Otherwise, he's just handing you a blank check. I suppose would say
> that the client was just passing things on the Mike, but I think he
> was just doing a bit of research. After all, Mike could make it a
> very, very expensive building or cheap it down. If Don wants the
> work, he should explain what he's willing to do to earn his coin. Don
> usually designed the Taj Mahal. Maybe the guy wants a nice, simple
> box.
It's a moot point. Michael clearly said that the land wasn't tenable,
therefore, a fee wasn't really at issue. It will cost zero to do the
project because the project can't be done... zero project, zero fee...
nothing to do.
I see this all the time...
Clueless Client: Hey, you're the design professional, tell me what I
should do.
Me: You shouldn't do it.
CC: But you're the design professional. Don't you want the job?
Me: Well, sure, I'd love the job. But you can't do what you want to do
on the land you're considering the budget you've given me. Can't be
done, so it really doesn't matter about the rest, does it?
CC: So and So told me it would work. I'll just call someone else...
ME: (hanging up / walking out) Phew! I hope he doesn't crawl back...
| |
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| "3D Peruna" <wharold@weirdness.com> wrote in message
news:3hk5i.79$wR3.75@newsfe03.lga...
>
> It's a moot point. Michael clearly said that the land wasn't tenable,
> therefore, a fee wasn't really at issue. It will cost zero to do the
> project because the project can't be done... zero project, zero fee...
> nothing to do.
>
> I see this all the time...
>
> Clueless Client: Hey, you're the design professional, tell me what I
> should do.
>
> Me: You shouldn't do it.
>
> CC: But you're the design professional. Don't you want the job?
>
> Me: Well, sure, I'd love the job. But you can't do what you want to do
> on the land you're considering the budget you've given me. Can't be done,
> so it really doesn't matter about the rest, does it?
>
> CC: So and So told me it would work. I'll just call someone else...
>
> ME: (hanging up / walking out) Phew! I hope he doesn't crawl back...
>
Not even with a super expensive underground parking garage (that you get a
percentage of)???
--
Edgar
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
| |
| Michael Bulatovich 2007-05-24, 5:25 pm |
|
"3D Peruna" <wharold@weirdness.com> wrote in message
news:3hk5i.79$wR3.75@newsfe03.lga...
>
> It's a moot point. Michael clearly said that the land wasn't tenable,
> therefore, a fee wasn't really at issue. It will cost zero to do the
> project because the project can't be done... zero project, zero fee...
> nothing to do.
Exactly. It's an absurd question, like, "How much to pluck a Chevy Cobalt?
Oh. How about an Aston Martin Lagonda? Really? Terrific! We'll be in touch.
OK? Bye..... Hello? Operator? Get me the number of Downtown Fine Cars,
please."
--
MichaelB
www.michaelbulatovich.ca
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| Michael Bulatovich 2007-05-24, 5:25 pm |
|
"Edgar" <ecamacho4_nospam@nospam_hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4655ca83$0$16375$88260bb3@free.teranews.com...
> "3D Peruna" <wharold@weirdness.com> wrote in message
> news:3hk5i.79$wR3.75@newsfe03.lga...
>
> Not even with a super expensive underground parking garage (that you get a
> percentage of)???
He actually floated that, but you'd have to go down at least two levels,
maybe three. Nobody does that because it can't be supported by any business
model other than one in a command economy. Even if there weren't any parking
problem, this site would be a an absurd turd.
| |
| Ken S. Tucker 2007-05-24, 5:25 pm |
| On May 24, 1:06 pm, "Michael Bulatovich" <Ple...@dont.try> wrote:
> "Edgar" <ecamacho4_nospam@nospam_hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:4655ca83$0$16375$88260bb3@free.teranews.com...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> He actually floated that, but you'd have to go down at least two levels,
> maybe three. Nobody does that because it can't be supported by any business
> model other than one in a command economy. Even if there weren't any parking
> problem, this site would be a an absurd turd.
If I were you I'd make it work.
Can you provide details?
Ken
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| "Pat"> wrote
> I have a friend who has earned pretty good coin for the last 3 years
> and has saved absolutely zero. zilch. nada. He wants to demo the
> old homestead and build new. bank says he's good to go with a
> mortgage at about 3X his income, which will produce a modest-to-good
> upstate home. I looked at his budget and at his known bills: taxes,
> utilities, car payment, etc. At the end, he'd have $300 a month to
> live on. I said that there's no way you can live on $10 per day
> (including food). I think that's champagne tastes without even being
> able to afford Shaeffer beer.
>
> (My recommendations to him: sell the car and buy a beater without a
> payment. it will over double his disposable income until he grows into
> the mortgage).
Lets play *Kick the Dawg*. heh
I know someone that built a house the same size as mine at the same time I
did back in 2002.
4 years later I sold mine at 100% profit and he refinanced his and bought a
truck with the proceeds (his equity in the home).
That was the 2nd time he had refinanced and each time he blew the coin on
expendables.
Currently his house payment is $1500/mth and mine is less than $800.
The downside for me?
I have to drive a 16 yo truck and not eat out 5 nights a week.
For him?
He is trapped in an upside down house that he will most likely never get out
of nor own, a prisoner of his own device.
Now if it was a nice custom home that he designed and built himself, like I
did, then he might be OK.
But its not, its a cheap assed builders spec that was falling apart 1 year
after he moved in.
cest la vie.
| |
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| "Ken S. Tucker" <dynamics@vianet.on.ca> wrote in message
news:1180037656.670477.211970@a35g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
> On May 24, 1:06 pm, "Michael Bulatovich" <Ple...@dont.try> wrote:
>
> If I were you I'd make it work.
> Can you provide details?
> Ken
>
Yeah I'm curious too, is it commercial or residential?
--
Edgar
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
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| Michael Bulatovich 2007-05-25, 9:25 am |
|
"Edgar" <ecamacho4_nospam@nospam_hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:46561948$0$16357$88260bb3@free.teranews.com...
> "Ken S. Tucker" <dynamics@vianet.on.ca> wrote in message
> news:1180037656.670477.211970@a35g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
>
> Yeah I'm curious too, is it commercial or residential?
Honestly, not worth the pixels.
Narrow skinny site, off a tertiary road in an industrial zone, *behind* a
functioning warehouse with 8-10 docks, not visible at all from the road.
It's a great place to dump a body.
He thinks he'll switch the 20,000 sf approved footprint of phase 2 of the
warehouse into a *banquet hall*. The site is maxed out for the warehouse
functions as approved. The parking load has got to be 10 times greater,
without looking it up. Even if he were to not build the building, and just
built a parking lot, he wouldn't have enough parking for the use envisaged.
He's off by *orders* of magnitude. If he was 8, and we were doing it in a
sandbox, it would be cute.
The point of the story was the absurdity of the situation, and the kinds of
people you meet as a little guy in my business. I should have known better
when he declined an offer to meet me at the site, and had me come to his
"office". He's not even invested in the ides enough to drive to the burbs.
Live and learn.
--
MichaelB
www.michaelbulatovich.ca
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