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Home > Archive > Lawn and Garden forum > August 2006 > lawn lime
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| Best type to use on a newly seeded lawn,granular or ground,and why
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| Steveo 2006-08-07, 1:25 pm |
| "JoeM" <joe837@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Best type to use on a newly seeded lawn,granular or ground,and why
>
The pellets are much easier to spread since it doesn't clog the spreader as
bad as the pulverized variety. They are basically the same product
otherwise.
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| Stubby 2006-08-07, 5:25 pm |
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Steveo wrote:
> "JoeM" <joe837@earthlink.net> wrote:
> The pellets are much easier to spread since it doesn't clog the spreader as
> bad as the pulverized variety. They are basically the same product
> otherwise.
That's incorrect. The pelletized "lime" sold in big box stores is
actually limestone (calcium carbonate). Real lime from a tile/concrete
place is hydrated calcium oxide. The pelletized product is much easier
to handle. But real lime reacts much more quickly whereas limestone is
used for monuments. Acid rain certainly has caused damage to limestone
things but it takes many years.
Now, if you want a really strong base order anhydrous calcium oxide from
a chem supply house, but be careful with it because it sucks the water
out of anything it's in contact with. I'm experimenting with a cheap
compromise -- good old fashion wash lye, sodium hydroxide. It's quite
basic and should be effective at raising the pH of the lawn.
Of course, JoeM should test his soil pH before doing anything. Mix
together samples from a half dozen spots so an average is read.
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| Steveo 2006-08-07, 5:25 pm |
| Stubby <William.Plummer-NOSPAM-@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
> Steveo wrote:
>
> That's incorrect. The pelletized "lime" sold in big box stores is
> actually limestone (calcium carbonate).
No, it is correct actually.
He's speaking of agricultural lime and the difference between the
pelletized and pulverized variety's, in which case there is no difference
besides a bonding agent to hold the pellets together.
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| trader4@optonline.net 2006-08-07, 8:25 pm |
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Steveo wrote:
> Stubby <William.Plummer-NOSPAM-@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
>
> No, it is correct actually.
>
> He's speaking of agricultural lime and the difference between the
> pelletized and pulverized variety's, in which case there is no difference
> besides a bonding agent to hold the pellets together.
I agree. The lime products associated with cement are not found at
garden shops. What you buy at the garden shop is suitable for lawns,
regardless of the form. And I agree that the pelitized form is much
easier and less messy to apply, though more expensive.
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| Jim Ledford 2006-08-08, 3:25 am |
| trader4 wrote:
> Steveo wrote:
>
> I agree. The lime products associated with cement are not found at
> garden shops. What you buy at the garden shop is suitable for lawns,
> regardless of the form. And I agree that the pelitized form is much
> easier and less messy to apply, though more expensive.
ok, now that ya'll got the lime all identified, I'll share a lawn
care tip. it's been noted already how pulverized lime clogs the
spreader and is no fun to work with. but pulverized lime will go
into the soil faster than pelletized. you need to speed up the
obtaining of the desired result from your lime application.
[impatient customer] mix 60/40 pelletized/pulverized in the
spreader hopper. MIX well with stir stick and then apply. this
trick has only been field tested in a broadcast type spreader,
therefore at this time there is no data available for the use of
one of those crappy drop type spreaders.
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| trader4@optonline.net 2006-08-08, 3:25 am |
|
Jim Ledford wrote:
> trader4 wrote:
>
>
> ok, now that ya'll got the lime all identified, I'll share a lawn
> care tip. it's been noted already how pulverized lime clogs the
> spreader and is no fun to work with. but pulverized lime will go
> into the soil faster than pelletized. you need to speed up the
> obtaining of the desired result from your lime application.
> [impatient customer] mix 60/40 pelletized/pulverized in the
> spreader hopper. MIX well with stir stick and then apply. this
> trick has only been field tested in a broadcast type spreader,
> therefore at this time there is no data available for the use of
> one of those crappy drop type spreaders.
I don't doubt that this could work and be a lower cost solution, but do
you really think it works any faster? Doesn't the pelletized form
just effectively become the pulverized after the first rain or water
application?
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| Jim Ledford 2006-08-08, 3:25 am |
| trader4 wrote:
> Jim Ledford wrote:
>
> I don't doubt that this could work and be a lower cost solution, but do
> you really think it works any faster? Doesn't the pelletized form
> just effectively become the pulverized after the first rain or water
> application?
field test data has shown a faster rate of change in the soil pH when
pulverized lime was applied at the same rate as pelletized lime on two
separate plots controlled and held to the same conditions.
mixing in the prescribed 60/40 pelletized/pulverized manner offers a
better way to work with pulverized lime in order to gain a faster change
in the pH.
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| Steveo 2006-08-08, 9:25 am |
| trader4@optonline.net wrote:
> Jim Ledford wrote:
>
> I don't doubt that this could work and be a lower cost solution, but do
> you really think it works any faster? Doesn't the pelletized form
> just effectively become the pulverized after the first rain or water
> application?
>
Sure does, and I imagine one would need a fairly calm (no wind) day to
apply pulverized limestone with a broadcast spreader unless you don't mind
looking like casper the ghost when you're finished. :-)
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| Steveo 2006-08-08, 9:25 am |
| Jim Ledford <jimled@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> pulverized lime was applied at the same rate as pelletized lime on two
> separate plots controlled and held to the same conditions.
>
How much faster, do you have a url to these test results?
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| Jim Ledford 2006-08-08, 9:25 am |
| Steveo wrote:
> Jim Ledford wrote:
> How much faster, do you have a url to these test results?
under the heading "Selecting a Liming Material" you'll see and read.
"The finer the limestone particles, the more
rapidly it becomes effective"
"The finer the grind of the limestone the faster
it will change the soil pH value."
http://www.savvygardener.com/Features/soil_ph.html
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| trader4@optonline.net 2006-08-08, 9:25 am |
|
Jim Ledford wrote:
> Steveo wrote:
>
>
> under the heading "Selecting a Liming Material" you'll see and read.
>
> "The finer the limestone particles, the more
> rapidly it becomes effective"
>
> "The finer the grind of the limestone the faster
> it will change the soil pH value."
>
> http://www.savvygardener.com/Features/soil_ph.html
I don't think we are disputing the fact that finer ground limestone
will work faster. But isn't pelletized aboput the same grind just
made into pellets with some kind of binder that dissolves quickly with
water?
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"Steveo" <moparholic@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:20060808063856.194$Iz@newsreader.com...
> trader4@optonline.net wrote:
> Sure does, and I imagine one would need a fairly calm (no wind) day to
> apply pulverized limestone with a broadcast spreader unless you don't mind
> looking like casper the ghost when you're finished. :-)
Its not limestone!!! Lime is actually brown in colour!
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| Chas Hurst 2006-08-08, 1:25 pm |
|
"Mike" <gouigoui@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:9C1Cg.102800$hp.85644@read2.cgocable.net...
>
> "Steveo" <moparholic@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:20060808063856.194$Iz@newsreader.com...
> Its not limestone!!! Lime is actually brown in colour!
Limestone is a sedimentary rock composed chiefly of calcium carbonate, which
in its' pure form is white. Limestone varies widely in color due to other
material that accreted in the sediment.
The lime associated with building is not calcium carbonate but calcium
hydroxide which is quite caustic.
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| Stubby 2006-08-08, 5:25 pm |
|
Chas Hurst wrote:
<...>
>
> Limestone is a sedimentary rock composed chiefly of calcium carbonate, which
> in its' pure form is white. Limestone varies widely in color due to other
> material that accreted in the sediment.
> The lime associated with building is not calcium carbonate but calcium
> hydroxide which is quite caustic.
Calcium Oxide is caustic in its anhydrous form. When it absorbs water
it goes to CaO * 6H20 or maybe CaOH as you suggest. Pardon me if I got
this wrong -- it's been nearly 50 years since I was in high school
chemistry class!
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| franklin.jerry@gmail.com 2006-08-08, 5:25 pm |
| JoeM wrote:
> Best type to use on a newly seeded lawn,granular or ground,and why
what about when to use? I have soil test results for my front and back
yard. I am supposed to apply lime and fertilizer to the back,
fertilizer only to the front. I will be seeding new fescue
(establishing, not overseeding) both yards this mid september. I plan
to mix the lime pretty well into the top 6" of the soil and the
fertilizer as well. Is this right? Do i do this way before or right
before i plant the seeds? or should i fertilize after i plant and have
mowed a few times? i have read both and am looking for some opinions.
thanks for any help!
jerry
ps. i'm in central NC
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| Jim Ledford 2006-08-09, 3:25 am |
| franklin.jerry@gmail.com wrote:
>
> JoeM wrote:
>
> what about when to use?
takes lime 3 to 4 months to break down and
even begin to change the pH of the soil.
> I have soil test results for my front and back
> yard.
this places you far far ahead of most people. my compliments
for your having tested to determine the requirements of your
soil rather than just tossing a bag of this, that, these and
those while thinking "yep, that ought to do it."
> I am supposed to apply lime and fertilizer to the back,
> fertilizer only to the front. I will be seeding new fescue
> (establishing, not overseeding) both yards this mid september. I plan
> to mix the lime pretty well into the top 6" of the soil and the
> fertilizer as well. Is this right? Do i do this way before or right
> before i plant the seeds? or should i fertilize after i plant and have
> mowed a few times? i have read both and am looking for some opinions.
>
> thanks for any help!
> jerry
lime now. if the recommendation was for 400 pounds of lime then
break that into 4 100 pound applications spaced by a week and a half.
doing this reduces the abruptness of the lime coming due and makes
for a softer transition.
fertilize after planting and best to wait until grass is about 1/2
to 3/4 of an inch tall. then apply your fertilizer.
here's a cheap trick for making a NEW lawn jump to life in the first
weeks after the new grass sprouts. get the miracle grow feeder jar
and hook it in line with your garden hose lawn sprinkler. fill miracle
grow feeder jar with miracle grow bloom buster 10-50-10. The second
number in a fertilizer formula is the phosphorus content. Phosphorus
is used by plants to increase fruit development and to produce a strong
root system. get the root system established first. build a good
foundation first. a house built on a weak foundation will not last and
the same is true of your lawn. hook the miracle grow feeder jar to your
lawn sprinkler. when the water is clear in the miracle grow feeder jar
then that's enough for that spot. refill miracle grow feeder jar,
relocate and repeat until complete coverage of your lawn has been
accomplished. do this once a week for 3 weeks.
granular starter fertilizers have a high middle number but ALL of
them have to much nitrogen. Nitrogen is used by plants for producing
leaf growth and greener, lusher leaves. the problem results when the
grass blade growth exceeds what the roots can feed. like the house
built on a poor foundation, it looks nice for awhile but then it falls
down.
3-9-9 is the mix I use for the first several granular
fertilizer applications on new lawns.
>
> ps. i'm in central NC
if you can drive to Wendell I'll give you a phone number
for a Farm supply house where you can purchase good quality
fertilizers at great prices. they carry a 3-9-9 with all
sub-elements. great stuff for young lawns.
| |
| Jim Ledford 2006-08-09, 3:25 am |
| trader4@optonline.net wrote:
> Jim Ledford wrote:
>
> I don't think we are disputing the fact that finer ground limestone
> will work faster. But isn't pelletized aboput the same grind just
> made into pellets with some kind of binder that dissolves quickly with
> water?
no.
limestone should be applied two to three months prior to
planting to allow time for it to neutralize the acidity.
The most important factor determining the effectiveness of
lime is placement. Maximum contact of lime with the soil is
essential.
Most liming materials are only slightly soluble
in water,
so incorporation in the soil is a must for lime
reaction. Even when properly mixed with the soil, lime will
have little effect on pH if the soil is dry.
Moisture is
essential for the lime-soil reaction to occur.
In the case
of lawns, it can only be surface applied and watered into
the soil.
what the author is attempting to convey is, that it is not how fast
the water dissolves the lime but it is more about a reaction occurring
in the soil when lime becomes properly mixed with the soil.
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| franklin.jerry@gmail.com 2006-08-09, 3:25 am |
| > lime now. if the recommendation was for 400 pounds of lime then
> break that into 4 100 pound applications spaced by a week and a half.
> doing this reduces the abruptness of the lime coming due and makes
> for a softer transition.
ok, i can lime now, and put off seeding til late september to help give
it time. that shouldn't be a problem. only need 60 lbs/100 sf for the
small back yard. as for shocking the soil, the back yard has zero
foilage whatsoever, so i think i should just be able to do one
treatment and let it settle over time. is that right?
> fertilize after planting and best to wait until grass is about 1/2
> to 3/4 of an inch tall. then apply your fertilizer.
>
> here's a cheap trick for making a NEW lawn jump to life in the first
> weeks after the new grass sprouts. get the miracle grow feeder jar
> and hook it in line with your garden hose lawn sprinkler. fill miracle
> grow feeder jar with miracle grow bloom buster 10-50-10.
ok, my soil test says use 14 lbs for 700 sf of 5-10-5 for my front
yard.
A) how do I compare the oz's of "bloom buster" to lbs of fertilizer?
and....
B) will the double the available nitrogen be dangerous. everything i
read says nitrogen is the thing to watch the most. should i try to use
half the equivalent of this stuff (plus divide by three since i will be
doing this three times?)
C) will extra phosphorus versus what the soil test says pose any
problems (like excess nitrogen will)
> granular starter fertilizers have a high middle number but ALL of
> them have to much nitrogen. Nitrogen is used by plants for producing
> leaf growth and greener, lusher leaves. the problem results when the
> grass blade growth exceeds what the roots can feed. like the house
> built on a poor foundation, it looks nice for awhile but then it falls
> down.
i think i can relate to that. the starter fertilizer helped grow some
pretty darn tall rye grass for a temporary turf in a bare spot, but the
roots are tiny and can't support the blades very well.
thanks so much for the advice. my lawn is a joke (bought a house with
a bad yard that i let get worse due to lack of time). making time this
year. plus, my weeds are invading my neighbor's very nice yard, which
isn't cool even though she hasn't complained. just been reading like
crazy and trying to figure out which way is up. but everything said
get a soil test, and it's free, and the lab is 10 minutes away, so that
was a no brainer.
thanks again!
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| trader4@optonline.net 2006-08-09, 9:25 am |
|
franklin.jerry@gmail.com wrote:
>
> ok, i can lime now, and put off seeding til late september to help give
> it time. that shouldn't be a problem. only need 60 lbs/100 sf for the
> small back yard. as for shocking the soil, the back yard has zero
> foilage whatsoever, so i think i should just be able to do one
> treatment and let it settle over time. is that right?
Limestone takes a long time to have an effect on the PH, so I wouldn't
make it harder by doing multiple applications spaced only 10 days
apart. If you're tilling the soil in the area to be seeded, I'd apply
the lime first, then till to incorporate it.
For fertilizing, a starter fertilizer should be put down at the time of
seeding. Read the seed bag and fertilizer bag.
>
>
> ok, my soil test says use 14 lbs for 700 sf of 5-10-5 for my front
> yard.
>
> A) how do I compare the oz's of "bloom buster" to lbs of fertilizer?
> and....
> B) will the double the available nitrogen be dangerous. everything i
> read says nitrogen is the thing to watch the most. should i try to use
> half the equivalent of this stuff (plus divide by three since i will be
> doing this three times?)
> C) will extra phosphorus versus what the soil test says pose any
> problems (like excess nitrogen will)
>
>
> i think i can relate to that. the starter fertilizer helped grow some
> pretty darn tall rye grass for a temporary turf in a bare spot, but the
> roots are tiny and can't support the blades very well.
>
> thanks so much for the advice. my lawn is a joke (bought a house with
> a bad yard that i let get worse due to lack of time). making time this
> year. plus, my weeds are invading my neighbor's very nice yard, which
> isn't cool even though she hasn't complained. just been reading like
> crazy and trying to figure out which way is up. but everything said
> get a soil test, and it's free, and the lab is 10 minutes away, so that
> was a no brainer.
>
> thanks again!
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