Austin Gardening - Shade + Large Dog = New Grass Needed Redux. Zoysia?

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Shade + Large Dog = New Grass Needed Redux. Zoysia?

LawrencePerson@gmail.com

2007-03-01, 8:25 pm

OK, I asked about this last year, but there didn't seem to be any
consensus.

I have a mostly shaded back yard that my 85 pound golden retriever
occasionally romps around in, which has slowly been wearing away the
St. Augestine that was there. I would like a more durable grass to
plant there, with the following desired attributes (in order):

Durability
Thrives in Shade
Drought-Resistant

I've been looking at various Zoysia grasses. I tried some seeding some
Bermuda derivatives last year (Rebel III, IIRC), but it just didn't
hold up. Also, is there any place you can buy Zoysia sod now? Most of
the places I called said they weren't getting any in until April.
(There are online sellers, but I'm not sure if I want to pay the
shipping charge, and I would like to go with sod rather than plugs if
at all possible.)

Any advice?

Lawrence Person

Jangchub

2007-03-02, 9:25 am

No turfgrass will thrive in shade other than St. Augustine. I have
known people to plant dwarf monkey grass in shade to replace turf, and
it can be mowed, but not sure about the trampling of your beauty dog.

On 1 Mar 2007 15:42:51 -0800, LawrencePerson@gmail.com wrote:

>OK, I asked about this last year, but there didn't seem to be any
>consensus.
>
>I have a mostly shaded back yard that my 85 pound golden retriever
>occasionally romps around in, which has slowly been wearing away the
>St. Augestine that was there. I would like a more durable grass to
>plant there, with the following desired attributes (in order):
>
>Durability
>Thrives in Shade
>Drought-Resistant
>
>I've been looking at various Zoysia grasses. I tried some seeding some
>Bermuda derivatives last year (Rebel III, IIRC), but it just didn't
>hold up. Also, is there any place you can buy Zoysia sod now? Most of
>the places I called said they weren't getting any in until April.
>(There are online sellers, but I'm not sure if I want to pay the
>shipping charge, and I would like to go with sod rather than plugs if
>at all possible.)
>
>Any advice?
>
>Lawrence Person

Justin Wilson

2007-03-03, 3:25 am

<LawrencePerson@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1172792571.050679.141560@s48g2000cws.googlegroups.com...
> OK, I asked about this last year, but there didn't seem to be any
> consensus.
>
> I have a mostly shaded back yard that my 85 pound golden retriever
> occasionally romps around in, which has slowly been wearing away the
> St. Augestine that was there. I would like a more durable grass to
> plant there, with the following desired attributes (in order):
>
> Durability
> Thrives in Shade
> Drought-Resistant
>
> I've been looking at various Zoysia grasses. I tried some seeding some
> Bermuda derivatives last year (Rebel III, IIRC), but it just didn't
> hold up. Also, is there any place you can buy Zoysia sod now? Most of
> the places I called said they weren't getting any in until April.
> (There are online sellers, but I'm not sure if I want to pay the
> shipping charge, and I would like to go with sod rather than plugs if
> at all possible.)
>
> Any advice?
>
> Lawrence Person

Submitted by Calvin Finch, Ph.D., Manager, Conservation Division, Water
Resources & Conservation Department, SAWS, and Horticulturist
WHICH GRASS IS FOR YOU

Choosing a turfgrass is not easy in San Antonio, none of the varieties are
overwhelmingly better than the other. A lawn can be attractive and a great
place for your pets and children to play but if you are intent on keeping it
green all summer, it requires lots of water and work. Reduce the lawn area
as much as possible with hardscape (preferably pervious), groundcover, and
perennials.

We have four choices for a permanent lawn: St. Augustine, Bermudagrass,
zoysia, and buffalo grass.

St. Augustine is the most popular grass. It is attractive with wide
kelly-green blades. St. Augustine is easy to mow and has the best shade
tolerance. Sod is relatively inexpensive and easy to obtain. St. Augustine,
evolved, however, in a high rainfall area with acidic soil. In San Antonio
it requires heavy irrigation and is stressed to the point that it requires
attention for insects, diseases, and iron chlorosis. St. Augustine does not
have very good traffic tolerance. If it turns brown in a drought, it is
dead. To keep it green requires about .75 inches of water per week.

Bermuda grass requires full sun. Mowed low, at 1.5 inches or less, a Bermuda
lawn can look like a golf course. It is the grass used for golf courses and
athletic fields in our area. Bermuda has the most traffic tolerance of the
lawn grasses available, and will go dormant if water is not available. When
the rains start again, it greens up quickly. Bermuda is relatively insect
and disease free but is not as thick as St. Augustine, so can support weeds,
especially in the winter. The Bermuda grasses require about .5 inches of
irrigation or rain in the summer to stay green. Hybrid Bermuda selections
like 'Baby' and 419 are available as sod. Common Bermuda can be seeded.
Sahara and Cheyenne are improved selections of common Bermuda.

Zoysia grass has some of the best characteristics of both St. Augustine and
Bermuda grass. It has shade tolerance (not as much as St. Augustine) and
forms a thick weed free sod. Zoysia has good traffic tolerance, is pest
resistant, and can go dormant in a drought. Zoysia is the most difficult
grass to mow. Emerald, a fine blade beautiful selection, has a texture like
steel wool. It mows best with a reel mower. Jamur and El Toro are two good
selections of zoysia that are easier to care for. Mow them with a regular
rotary mower. Because of its slow growth characteristic, zoysia sod is often
25 to 40 percent more expensive than St. Augustine. Although zoysia grass
has drought tolerance and can go dormant, to stay green it requires the same
amount of water as St. Augustine.

Buffalo grass is the only native turf on the permanent lawn grass list. It
requires only about 3/8 inch of water every week to stay green and, thus, is
the least water demanding grass. Overwatering will kill buffalo grass. Plant
buffalo grass in full sun on heavy soils. It is insect and disease free. The
main problem of buffalo grass is weeds. It does not form a tight sod so
there is lots of room for weeds to germinate. Mowing the grass very high, 5
inches, helps keep weeds out, but it is often necessary to use pre-emergent
herbicides two times per year if you want weed free buffalo grass..

Buffalo grass can be grown from seed or sod. The sod includes only female
plants for more uniformity. Stampede and 609 are two popular selections.

Select the lawn grass that best suites the availability of light in your
yard, your aesthetic preferences, your interest in lawn work, and your
tolerance for water bills. Six inches of soil is best for a good lawn. If
you have less, add some, or use groundcovers instead.

Omelet

2007-03-03, 9:25 am

In article <Nt6Gh.90720$5j1.53105@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
"Justin Wilson" <lTw@msn.com> wrote:

> Zoysia grass has some of the best characteristics of both St. Augustine and
> Bermuda grass. It has shade tolerance (not as much as St. Augustine) and
> forms a thick weed free sod. Zoysia has good traffic tolerance, is pest
> resistant, and can go dormant in a drought. Zoysia is the most difficult
> grass to mow. Emerald, a fine blade beautiful selection, has a texture like
> steel wool. It mows best with a reel mower. Jamur and El Toro are two good
> selections of zoysia that are easier to care for. Mow them with a regular
> rotary mower. Because of its slow growth characteristic, zoysia sod is often
> 25 to 40 percent more expensive than St. Augustine. Although zoysia grass
> has drought tolerance and can go dormant, to stay green it requires the same
> amount of water as St. Augustine.

Hm. Wonder if I can get Zoysia seed?

Time to go googling. :-)
--
Peace, Om

Remove _ to validate e-mails.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a XXXXX" -- Jack Nicholson

Victor Martinez

2007-03-03, 1:25 pm

Justin Wilson wrote:
> Submitted by Calvin Finch, Ph.D., Manager, Conservation Division, Water
> Resources & Conservation Department, SAWS, and Horticulturist
<snip>
> resistant, and can go dormant in a drought. Zoysia is the most difficult
> grass to mow. Emerald, a fine blade beautiful selection, has a texture like
> steel wool. It mows best with a reel mower. Jamur and El Toro are two good

We have Emerald Zoysia and I have to strongly disagree with this
description. It's a wonderful grass to take your shoes off and go walk
on it. It's like walking on a very plush carpet.
While it does not need mowing it gets mowed once or twice a year with
our electric (corded) mower. No issues at all.

--
Victor M. Martinez
Owned and operated by the Fantastic Seven (TM)
Send your spam here: uce@ftc.gov
Email me here: pistorLITTER@BOXaustin.rr.com

Omelet

2007-03-03, 1:25 pm

In article <54tj57F22dvqbU1@mid.individual.net>,
Victor Martinez <me@nospam.com> wrote:

> Justin Wilson wrote:
> <snip>
>
> We have Emerald Zoysia and I have to strongly disagree with this
> description. It's a wonderful grass to take your shoes off and go walk
> on it. It's like walking on a very plush carpet.
> While it does not need mowing it gets mowed once or twice a year with
> our electric (corded) mower. No issues at all.

Where did you get it?
I'm pricing seed on line, I'd rather get it locally instead of paying
shipping. Our local Lowe's will not be carrying it. I called.
--
Peace, Om

Remove _ to validate e-mails.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a XXXXX" -- Jack Nicholson

Victor Martinez

2007-03-03, 1:25 pm

Omelet wrote:
> Where did you get it?

I don't recall, but it was a local source.

> I'm pricing seed on line, I'd rather get it locally instead of paying
> shipping. Our local Lowe's will not be carrying it. I called.

I don't know if it's available from seed, we used sod.

--
Victor M. Martinez
Owned and operated by the Fantastic Seven (TM)
Send your spam here: uce@ftc.gov
Email me here: pistorLITTER@BOXaustin.rr.com

Jangchub

2007-03-03, 5:25 pm

On Sat, 03 Mar 2007 09:05:38 -0600, Omelet <omp_omelet@gmail.com>
wrote:

>In article <Nt6Gh.90720$5j1.53105@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
> "Justin Wilson" <lTw@msn.com> wrote:
>
>
>Hm. Wonder if I can get Zoysia seed?
>
>Time to go googling. :-)

Try "The Grass Patch" on 183, unless they moved.

Omelet

2007-03-04, 3:25 am

In article <54tsfcF22o10nU1@mid.individual.net>,
Victor Martinez <me@nospam.com> wrote:

> Omelet wrote:
>
> I don't recall, but it was a local source.

I'll call around then to the local nurseries.

>
>
> I don't know if it's available from seed, we used sod.

It is, at least on line. :-) My googling showed that much. It's running
roughly $20.00 per lb. and recommended seeding is 1 to 2 lbs. per 1000
square ft.
--
Peace, Om

Remove _ to validate e-mails.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a XXXXX" -- Jack Nicholson

Omelet

2007-03-04, 3:25 am

In article <igpju2hi1h2171k2ss248hvpq8nhlkn9lu@4ax.com>,
Jangchub <sakadawa@kopan.com> wrote:

> On Sat, 03 Mar 2007 09:05:38 -0600, Omelet <omp_omelet@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
> Try "The Grass Patch" on 183, unless they moved.

I'll see if they have a website, thanks!
--
Peace, Om

Remove _ to validate e-mails.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a XXXXX" -- Jack Nicholson

cat daddy

2007-03-04, 9:25 am

"Omelet" <omp_omelet@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:omp_omelet-9BDA44.01170204032007@news.giganews.com...
> In article <54tsfcF22o10nU1@mid.individual.net>,
> Victor Martinez <me@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>
> I'll call around then to the local nurseries.
>
>
> It is, at least on line. :-) My googling showed that much. It's running
> roughly $20.00 per lb. and recommended seeding is 1 to 2 lbs. per 1000
> square ft.

My search for "zoysia seed" turned up almost universal advice
discouraging planting from seed or in shady areas.

http://www.allaboutlawns.com/grass-...oysia-grass.php
"...it can take up to 12 months for sprigs or plugs to merge and cover a
lawn area. If there's a lot of shade in your garden, no matter the climate,
you should probably pass on Zoysia grass."

http://www1.zoysiafarms.com/whyplugsarebetter.html

http://www1.zoysiafarms.com/moreaboutzoysia.html
"It is hard to grow because only a small percentage of zoysia seed will
successfully germinate."

http://www.zoysias.com/
"Please note that we ONLY recommend Zoysia seeds for use in bare soil
areas. Planting seeds into existing grasses has a HIGH FAILURE rate. If
planting into an existing lawn (grass and/or weeds) we recommend that you
consider using Zoysia plugs instead of seeds. - Zoysia seeds also are
difficult to achieve germination in low light / shady areas."

Omelet

2007-03-04, 1:25 pm

In article <HuqdnfBHS7CKK3fYnZ2dnUVZ_tijnZ2d@giganews.com>,
"cat daddy" <furball@.myhouse.com> wrote:

> My search for "zoysia seed" turned up almost universal advice
> discouraging planting from seed or in shady areas.
>
> http://www.allaboutlawns.com/grass-...oysia-grass.php
> "...it can take up to 12 months for sprigs or plugs to merge and cover a
> lawn area. If there's a lot of shade in your garden, no matter the climate,
> you should probably pass on Zoysia grass."
>
> http://www1.zoysiafarms.com/whyplugsarebetter.html
>
> http://www1.zoysiafarms.com/moreaboutzoysia.html
> "It is hard to grow because only a small percentage of zoysia seed will
> successfully germinate."
>
> http://www.zoysias.com/
> "Please note that we ONLY recommend Zoysia seeds for use in bare soil
> areas. Planting seeds into existing grasses has a HIGH FAILURE rate. If
> planting into an existing lawn (grass and/or weeds) we recommend that you
> consider using Zoysia plugs instead of seeds. - Zoysia seeds also are
> difficult to achieve germination in low light / shady areas."

Well, I've got little to no grass except for winter rye right now but
that will die as soon as it gets hot.

Most of my yard is sun.

I suppose plugs might be a better idea but I was trying to save money.
<G>
--
Peace, Om

Remove _ to validate e-mails.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a XXXXX" -- Jack Nicholson

Scott Harper

2007-03-04, 8:25 pm

In article <a5agu2padhq79evie44190n4cp983rvlo7@4ax.com>, Jangchub <sakadawa@kopan.com> wrote:
>No turfgrass will thrive in shade other than St. Augustine. I have
>known people to plant dwarf monkey grass in shade to replace turf, and
>it can be mowed, but not sure about the trampling of your beauty dog.

I have zoysia planted in heavy shade under some large oak trees and it thrives
just fine. It even spreads pretty well. It is the larger bladed version of
zoysia... I think El Toro and Palisades are two of the varieties.

scott

Scott Harper

2007-03-04, 8:25 pm

In article <omp_omelet-3EDE2D.09053803032007@news.giganews.com>, Omelet <omp_omelet@gmail.com> wrote:
>In article <Nt6Gh.90720$5j1.53105@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
> "Justin Wilson" <lTw@msn.com> wrote:
>
>
>Hm. Wonder if I can get Zoysia seed?
>
>Time to go googling. :-)

Supposedly you can get it hydro-mulched...

scott

Jangchub

2007-03-04, 8:25 pm

On Sun, 04 Mar 2007 23:24:04 GMT, sharper3@austin.dot.rr.dot.com
(Scott Harper) wrote:

>In article <a5agu2padhq79evie44190n4cp983rvlo7@4ax.com>, Jangchub <sakadawa@kopan.com> wrote:
>
>I have zoysia planted in heavy shade under some large oak trees and it thrives
>just fine. It even spreads pretty well. It is the larger bladed version of
>zoysia... I think El Toro and Palisades are two of the varieties.
>
>
>scott

I stand corrected. I was not aware of these varieties. It is a
rather dense grass.

Omelet

2007-03-05, 3:25 am

In article <tzIGh.3301$dd.2635@newsread1.mlpsca01.us.to.verio.net>,
sharper3@austin.dot.rr.dot.com (Scott Harper) wrote:

> In article <omp_omelet-3EDE2D.09053803032007@news.giganews.com>, Omelet
> <omp_omelet@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Supposedly you can get it hydro-mulched...
>
>
> scott

Great.

Another unknown term I'm going to have to google. <G>

Education is a good thing...
--
Peace, Om

Remove _ to validate e-mails.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a XXXXX" -- Jack Nicholson

Jangchub

2007-03-05, 9:25 am

On Mon, 05 Mar 2007 01:44:09 -0600, Omelet <omp_omelet@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Great.
>
>Another unknown term I'm going to have to google. <G>
>
>Education is a good thing...

I just saw a commercial for The Grass Patch www.grasspatch.com and
hydromulch is applied to soil using a giant hose with a pump from a
large truck. It is basically paper pulp and seeds and it prevents
seeds from falling to one area as you water it very often during
germination. It works out very well, but I don't know how Zoysia
would work. If it's a small area, you would be surprised at how much
less sod costs than you think.

Omelet

2007-03-06, 1:25 pm

In article <kyIGh.3300$dd.620@newsread1.mlpsca01.us.to.verio.net>,
sharper3@austin.dot.rr.dot.com (Scott Harper) wrote:

> In article <a5agu2padhq79evie44190n4cp983rvlo7@4ax.com>, Jangchub
> <sakadawa@kopan.com> wrote:
>
> I have zoysia planted in heavy shade under some large oak trees and it
> thrives
> just fine. It even spreads pretty well. It is the larger bladed version of
> zoysia... I think El Toro and Palisades are two of the varieties.
>
>
> scott

I'll save this, thanks!
I really do need to solve my grass problem and I'll forever regret
planting Bermuda. Ugly damned grass. :-(

It's died out in most areas fortunately.

It was expensive as hell too.
--
Peace, Om

Remove _ to validate e-mails.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a XXXXX" -- Jack Nicholson

Omelet

2007-03-06, 1:25 pm

In article <0r4ou2tcak9bf2jua08f93prbfld18f20h@4ax.com>,
Jangchub <sakadawa@kopan.com> wrote:

> On Mon, 05 Mar 2007 01:44:09 -0600, Omelet <omp_omelet@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
> I just saw a commercial for The Grass Patch www.grasspatch.com and
> hydromulch is applied to soil using a giant hose with a pump from a
> large truck. It is basically paper pulp and seeds and it prevents
> seeds from falling to one area as you water it very often during
> germination. It works out very well, but I don't know how Zoysia
> would work. If it's a small area, you would be surprised at how much
> less sod costs than you think.

I just wish I could get my hands on a few yards of that stuff the
highway dept. uses. :-)
--
Peace, Om

Remove _ to validate e-mails.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a XXXXX" -- Jack Nicholson

Scott Harper

2007-03-06, 1:25 pm

In article <omp_omelet-B79F99.09261006032007@news.giganews.com>, Omelet <omp_omelet@gmail.com> wrote:
>In article <kyIGh.3300$dd.620@newsread1.mlpsca01.us.to.verio.net>,
> sharper3@austin.dot.rr.dot.com (Scott Harper) wrote:
>
>
>I'll save this, thanks!
>I really do need to solve my grass problem and I'll forever regret
>planting Bermuda. Ugly damned grass. :-(
>
>It's died out in most areas fortunately.
>
>It was expensive as hell too.

I started as an experiment with plugs under one group of trees. It does take
a while to fill in from plugs, at least a year. But once it filled in, it
started spreading outward and that seems to be moving much faster. I repeated
the experiment under two other groups of trees, and it seems to be about the
same result.

If I ever get serious about a large area, I would probably go with sod --
especially if it is in a shaded area. But I've done a little poking around on
the web and I think you can get it done with hydromulch. That might be a
cheaper alternative in bigger, sunnier areas.

As far as plugs go... you can order them online pretty expensive. I just
called the grass company (Grass Patch?) that used to be on McNeil, then 183,
and now out on the Parmer extension. They had some scrap, and basically gave
me 8 or 10 squares of sod (actually, it was a dollar or two per square), which
I cut into my own plugs with a shovel.

scott

Scott Harper

2007-03-06, 1:25 pm

As for the other part of this thread, I don't have any experience with what
dog traffic will do. But I would be very interested to hear what others have
to say about that. It can't be any worse than the bermuda we have... they
would basically cut a new trail in it every winter, and then it would almost
completely grow back in over the summer.

scott

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