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Home > Archive > Austin Gardening > July 2007 > Live oaks
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| Know some arborists read these groups, so, thought would ask questions here.
After all the rain here in central TX, have noticed that most of the live
oaks have really sprouted some spectacular amount of leaves compared to the
last 3 years. Some, almost to the point of fault. For instance, most new
branches and leaves emanating almost at one general place on the tree. Like
a bush growing on the side of the tree is the best I can describe it.
Some look healthy, but aren't doing all the major leaf and branch thing.
Like nothing much happened regarding rainfall.
Others are sprouting mini-trees at their roots, others not.
Is all this in response to the 3 year drought prior?
The cedars (juniper-ashe) look okay, but aren't doing all the proliferation.
They, of course, compete with the live oaks in the hill country.
I see some landowners choose to remove all the cedars on their property.
Leaving just the live and red oaks as the major tree population. Some live
oaks actually grew sideways close to the ground to get to the sunlight while
competing with the cedars for same. I can see removing such around
buildings and roads as these are a potential fire hazard. Is this cedar
genocide healthy for the hill country ecosystem?
Dave
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| symplastless 2007-07-08, 1:25 pm |
|
Dace
Good question!
"Dave" <spamyourself@virus.net> wrote in message
news:wj7ki.5924$zA4.5281@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> Know some arborists read these groups, so, thought would ask questions
> here.
>
> After all the rain here in central TX, have noticed that most of the live
> oaks have really sprouted some spectacular amount of leaves compared to
> the last 3 years. Some, almost to the point of fault. For instance, most
> new branches and leaves emanating almost at one general place on the tree.
> Like a bush growing on the side of the tree is the best I can describe it.
Sounds like sprouting which can be stimulated by stress. Which may be the
accumulation of events over many years with treatments by humans at the top
of the list. There is a good article on the so called sudden oak death
here.
http://www.treedictionary.com/DICT2003/shigo/COP.html
More writtings are here:
http://www.treedictionary.com/DICT2003/shigo/index.html
>
> Some look healthy, but aren't doing all the major leaf and branch thing.
> Like nothing much happened regarding rainfall.
>
> Others are sprouting mini-trees at their roots, others not.
> Is all this in response to the 3 year drought prior?
Like human doctors I would have to see the patient.
>
> The cedars (juniper-ashe) look okay, but aren't doing all the
> proliferation. They, of course, compete with the live oaks in the hill
> country.
>
> I see some landowners choose to remove all the cedars on their property.
> Leaving just the live and red oaks as the major tree population. Some
> live oaks actually grew sideways close to the ground to get to the
> sunlight while competing with the cedars for same. I can see removing
> such around buildings and roads as these are a potential fire hazard. Is
> this cedar genocide healthy for the hill country ecosystem?
>
> Dave
I am not sure I understand the question. If you are asking if eradicating a
species is good, it is not. In my view of an ecosystem.
Sincerely,
John A. Keslick, Jr.
Arborist
http://home.ccil.org/~treeman
and www.treedictionary.com
Beware of so-called tree experts who do not understand tree biology.
Storms, fires, floods, earthquakes, and volcanic eruptions keep reminding us
that we are not the boss.
| |
| cat daddy 2007-07-08, 1:25 pm |
|
"symplastless" <symplastless@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:goydnVe42IjvlwzbnZ2dnUVZ_uCinZ2d@comcast.com...
>
> Dace
>
> Good question!
>
>
> "Dave" <spamyourself@virus.net> wrote in message
> news:wj7ki.5924$zA4.5281@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
<snip>[color=darkred]
Is[color=darkred]
>
>
> I am not sure I understand the question. If you are asking if eradicating
a
> species is good, it is not. In my view of an ecosystem.
Endangered Species in the Texas Hill Country
http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/landwat...ngered_species/
"The golden-cheeked warbler depends on stands of mature Ashe juniper
(blueberry cedar) mixed with deciduous trees including Lacey oak, Spanish
oak, shin oak, post oak, cedar elm, and escarpment black cherry.
Mature Ashe juniper is a major factor resulting in decreased water supply
to the Edwards Aquifer. Two other endangered species depend on an adequate
supply of water. The San Marcos salamander is threatened by reduced spring
flow, and the Texas blind salamander depends on a constant supply of clean
water from the Edwards Aquifer. Research indicates that removal of Ashe
juniper results in a tremendous increase in groundwater. One such study
reported an increase of 100,000 gal/acre/year with 100% cedar removal.
In the absence of fire (for the past 100+ years), Ashe juniper has
encroached on the upland sites, forming dense woodlands containing only
cedar, bare soil, and rock. In addition to other obvious ecological concerns
(e.g., soil erosion), dense stands of cedar (also known as cedar brakes)
have played a major role in the depletion of the Edwards Aquifer.
Furthermore, cedar brakes do not provide suitable habitat for golden-cheeked
warblers, as the deciduous tree component is absent and overall plant
diversity is nil.
The expansion of Ashe juniper has had a tremendous impact on the
ecosystem, causing a decrease in plant species diversity and an increase in
soil erosion.
| |
| Omelet 2007-07-08, 5:25 pm |
| In article <wj7ki.5924$zA4.5281@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
"Dave" <spamyourself@virus.net> wrote:
> I see some landowners choose to remove all the cedars on their property.
> Leaving just the live and red oaks as the major tree population. Some live
> oaks actually grew sideways close to the ground to get to the sunlight while
> competing with the cedars for same. I can see removing such around
> buildings and roads as these are a potential fire hazard. Is this cedar
> genocide healthy for the hill country ecosystem?
>
> Dave
Yes, it is.
Cedars hog a lot of ground water.
That said, I have one old growth Cedar tree in my yard that is around
16" at the base.
It gets to live. ;-)
--
Peace, Om
Remove _ to validate e-mails.
"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a XXXXX" -- Jack Nicholson
| |
| Guy.A.Regular@gmail.com 2007-07-08, 5:25 pm |
| On Jul 8, 11:49 am, "cat daddy" <furball@.myhouse.com> wrote:
> "The golden-cheeked warbler depends on stands of mature Ashe juniper
> (blueberry cedar) mixed with deciduous trees including Lacey oak, Spanish
> oak, shin oak, post oak, cedar elm, and escarpment black cherry.
Makes a body wonder what the golden-cheeked warbler depended on before
the introduction of the highly invasive Ashe juniper...
| |
| cat daddy 2007-07-08, 5:25 pm |
|
<Guy.A.Regular@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1183931037.414439.117930@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...
> On Jul 8, 11:49 am, "cat daddy" <furball@.myhouse.com> wrote:
>
Spanish[color=darkred]
>
> Makes a body wonder what the golden-cheeked warbler depended on before
> the introduction of the highly invasive Ashe juniper...
From other stuff I read, mature Junipers (medium sized are 200-300 years
old...) mixed in with the rest of the trees, were wiped out for their wood
and charcoal making by the settlers. They also normally exist in ravines and
are native.
Overgrazing led to erosion of the thin grasslands, the other trees died
out, and fire suppression left the young Ashe junipers to colonize almost
exclusively.
So, they weren't invasive naturally and the warblers were happy, until
the settlers upset the delicate balance.
| |
| Victor Martinez 2007-07-08, 5:25 pm |
| cat daddy wrote:
> water from the Edwards Aquifer. Research indicates that removal of Ashe
> juniper results in a tremendous increase in groundwater. One such study
> reported an increase of 100,000 gal/acre/year with 100% cedar removal.
Selah ranch near Johnson City has a teaching program where they show
what they did. After clearing most of the junipers, the grasses returned
and springs that had been dry for years, started flowing again.
--
Victor M. Martinez
Owned and operated by the Fantastic Seven (TM)
Send your spam here: uce@ftc.gov
Email me here: pistorLITTER@BOXaustin.rr.com
| |
| cat daddy 2007-07-08, 8:25 pm |
|
"Victor Martinez" <me@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:5fd62mF3ah6mlU1@mid.individual.net...
> cat daddy wrote:
>
> Selah ranch near Johnson City has a teaching program where they show
> what they did. After clearing most of the junipers, the grasses returned
> and springs that had been dry for years, started flowing again.
I remember reading a bit about this place. Pretty amazing. Restoring the
springs and the creek are huge, as is the habitat diversity. Thanks.
Selah, Bamberger Ranch Preserve: "Nature. Pure an Simple."
http://www.bambergerranch.org/about/history.phtml
Day Trips
http://www.austinchronicle.com/gyro...oid=oid%3A85846
| |
| symplastless 2007-07-08, 8:25 pm |
| > The expansion of Ashe juniper has had a tremendous impact on the
> ecosystem, causing a decrease in plant species diversity and an increase
> in
> soil erosion.
>
>
Nurse logs "fallen Trees" with soil contact would create new soil and reduce
soil erosion. Just a thought.
Sincerely,
John A. Keslick, Jr.
Arborist
http://home.ccil.org/~treeman
and www.treedictionary.com
Beware of so-called tree experts who do not understand tree biology.
Storms, fires, floods, earthquakes, and volcanic eruptions keep reminding us
that we are not the boss.
| |
| symplastless 2007-07-08, 8:25 pm |
| BTW
Regarding water and the requirements of live oak. If you look at the wood
of a live oak in the cross section the vessels within the increment appear
as upside down tornados. The tree is a ring porous trees. Thus stating
that the tree takes in large amounts of water during the time of the early
or spring wood and then a moderate amount of water during the time of the
latewood or summer wood. Too much water about the woody roots could
stimulate woody root decay or root rot. Just a thought.
Sincerely,
John A. Keslick, Jr.
Arborist
http://home.ccil.org/~treeman
and www.treedictionary.com
Beware of so-called tree experts who do not understand tree biology.
Storms, fires, floods, earthquakes, and volcanic eruptions keep reminding us
that we are not the boss.
| |
| cat daddy 2007-07-08, 8:25 pm |
|
"symplastless" <symplastless@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:7IGdnTplUsdG7AzbnZ2dnUVZ_sWdnZ2d@comcast.com...
> Nurse logs "fallen Trees" with soil contact would create new soil and
reduce
> soil erosion. Just a thought.
I agree and use nurse logs for rainwater runoff retention in the park
where I volunteer. However, most landclearing around these parts consists of
bulldozing and burning. Even the Nature Conservancy will conduct a
controlled burn of 450 acres this year, as most of the second growth is more
brushy and even chipping is not practical.
| |
|
| "cat daddy" <furball@.myhouse.com> wrote in message
news:MeadnfZNJd5x_AzbnZ2dnUVZ_ryknZ2d@giganews.com...
>
> <Guy.A.Regular@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1183931037.414439.117930@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...
> Spanish
>
> From other stuff I read, mature Junipers (medium sized are 200-300 years
> old...) mixed in with the rest of the trees, were wiped out for their wood
> and charcoal making by the settlers. They also normally exist in ravines
> and
> are native.
> Overgrazing led to erosion of the thin grasslands, the other trees died
> out, and fire suppression left the young Ashe junipers to colonize almost
> exclusively.
> So, they weren't invasive naturally and the warblers were happy, until
> the settlers upset the delicate balance.
>
>
Read something about the juniper ashe are not native to TX at all. Rather,
a dubious transplant from some foreign European country.
Have also read many times about how juniper ashe hogs groundwater flow in
many places.
The beneficial side, read that it can grow almost anywhere in TX hill
country. Turning native limestone and similar soft rock usable as soil over
a long period of time. Most of which, TX hill country has little topsoil if
any.
All of which makes me ask the question regarding it effect, and possible
loss if eradicated. If the water loss is so drastic due to juniper ashe,
why do adjacent live oaks continue even if adjacent to same? Makes me
believe there's more to this than what is publicized for our perusal. Or,
rather, tainted with some irrational prejudice towards the juniper ashe.
Kinda like the cattlemen's prejudice towards sheep herders over a 100 years
ago.
Forgive me for seeking the truth and doubt that I show...
Dave
| |
|
| "symplastless" <symplastless@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:goydnVe42IjvlwzbnZ2dnUVZ_uCinZ2d@comcast.com...
>
> Dace
>
> Good question!
>
>
> "Dave" <spamyourself@virus.net> wrote in message
> news:wj7ki.5924$zA4.5281@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
> Sounds like sprouting which can be stimulated by stress. Which may be the
> accumulation of events over many years with treatments by humans at the
> top of the list. There is a good article on the so called sudden oak
> death here.
> http://www.treedictionary.com/DICT2003/shigo/COP.html
>
> More writtings are here:
> http://www.treedictionary.com/DICT2003/shigo/index.html
>
>
>
> Like human doctors I would have to see the patient.
>
>
>
> I am not sure I understand the question. If you are asking if eradicating
> a species is good, it is not. In my view of an ecosystem.
>
>
> Sincerely,
> John A. Keslick, Jr.
> Arborist
> http://home.ccil.org/~treeman
> and www.treedictionary.com
> Beware of so-called tree experts who do not understand tree biology.
> Storms, fires, floods, earthquakes, and volcanic eruptions keep reminding
> us that we are not the boss.
>
>
>
After looking at the south and western portions adjacent to Wimberley, TX;
this I consider an over-generalized joke of soil description.
http://www.tsha.utexas.edu/handbook...es/SS/gps1.html
I've seen areas with little or no topsoil in the majority of those areas.
Most of it is a very thin layer of light gray-vaguely green clay version.
Not black. Only those areas with generous fill allowances in the limestone
have gathered anything resembling soil that is black. Many of those
shallower areas contain juniper ashe leave accumulations instead of soil.
You may ask what that has to do with my questions. My subsequent question
is where topsoil comes from to begin with in a semi-arid region primarily
consisting primarily of limestone outcroppings and calcium carbonate fill
(caliche)? This is what the juniper ashe is living on in that region. As
is the live oak.
Am trying to make people think... research and look at the big picture on
their own. Hopefully, not distracted by nuances. Rather, how it all fits
together. An ecosystem.
One question that one could ask is why the juniper ashe needs so much water
storage, consider the root system and what it has to penetrate in the TX
hill country and how its done, hydraulics (water). That's a start.
Another question that strikes me is if the juniper ashe and live oak are
mutually beneficial in the TX hill country despite their externally obvious
competition?
Dave
| |
| Billy Rose 2007-07-09, 3:25 am |
| In article <ivjki.5727$tj6.902@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
"Dave" <spamyourself@virus.net> wrote:
> My subsequent question
> is where topsoil comes from to begin with in a semi-arid region primarily
> consisting primarily of limestone outcroppings and calcium carbonate fill
> (caliche)?
Uh, calcium carbonate is limestone. The miracle isn't the top soil but
the sub-soil. Evidently, things were not always as sever as the are
today. What did they say in Jurassic Park? Life will find a way.
--
Billy
http://angryarab.blogspot.com/
| |
| cat daddy 2007-07-09, 9:25 am |
|
"Dave" <spamyourself@virus.net> wrote in message
news:Kwiki.5108$rR.2494@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> "cat daddy" <furball@.myhouse.com> wrote in message
> news:MeadnfZNJd5x_AzbnZ2dnUVZ_ryknZ2d@giganews.com...
juniper[color=darkred]
years[color=darkred]
wood[color=darkred]
died[color=darkred]
almost[color=darkred]
>
> Read something about the juniper ashe are not native to TX at all.
Rather,
> a dubious transplant from some foreign European country.
Not true, according to the more reputable websites.
> Have also read many times about how juniper ashe hogs groundwater flow in
> many places.
>
> The beneficial side, read that it can grow almost anywhere in TX hill
> country. Turning native limestone and similar soft rock usable as soil
over
> a long period of time. Most of which, TX hill country has little topsoil
if
> any.
Um, the agricultural practices of the settlers changed the landscape,
allowing new growth juniper to flourish and led to eroding the topsoil. Not
beneficial.
> All of which makes me ask the question regarding it effect, and possible
> loss if eradicated. If the water loss is so drastic due to juniper ashe,
> why do adjacent live oaks continue even if adjacent to same? Makes me
> believe there's more to this than what is publicized for our perusal. Or,
> rather, tainted with some irrational prejudice towards the juniper ashe.
> Kinda like the cattlemen's prejudice towards sheep herders over a 100
years
> ago.
There seems to be a lot of prejudice along economic interests of various
entities, same as always. I side with the success of the Selah, Bamberger
Ranch Preserve as a model for how to deal with the effects of introducing
the non-native human pest species.
> Forgive me for seeking the truth and doubt that I show...
>
> Dave
>
>
| |
|
| Like most good thinga, an over abundace may produce some side effects. I
lost 3 trees I planted because of the heavy rains. The tree were not
established and root rot set in. I believe you'll be okay once the rain lets
up and the ground drains some.
| |
| Treedweller 2007-07-10, 5:25 pm |
| On Sun, 8 Jul 2007 19:29:43 -0400, "symplastless"
<symplastless@comcast.net> wrote:
>BTW
>Regarding water and the requirements of live oak. If you look at the wood
>of a live oak in the cross section the vessels within the increment appear
>as upside down tornados. The tree is a ring porous trees. Thus stating
>that the tree takes in large amounts of water during the time of the early
>or spring wood and then a moderate amount of water during the time of the
>latewood or summer wood. Too much water about the woody roots could
>stimulate woody root decay or root rot. Just a thought.
>
Our local live oak, _Q. fusiformis_, is diffuse-porous, as is _Q.
virginiana_. So I've been told, anyway, by a reputable source, and it
fits what I've seen of the trees.
Keith Babberney
ISA Certified Arborist #TX-0236AT
(in Austin, where this thread originated)
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