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Home > Archive > Home Repair forum > July 2005 > Sparks Inside Outlet Box!?
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Sparks Inside Outlet Box!?
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| Help!
We have an older home and an air conditioner plugged into an outlet in
our master bedroom. Same one we've used for a few years.
Today, I just happened to be cleaning the room and noticed what looked
like flashes of light behind the outlet cover. I thought it was from
the window and as I got closer I noticed it seemed to be SPARKS inside
the outlet box! The plastic cover is also warm, but not too warm to
touch.
This is obviously not good! I turn off the air conditioner and it
stops. I turn it on and after a few minutes this flashes start again.
We have had this air conditioner runnings for months, even when not
home. I can't believe this is a safe thing, but have no idea why it's
happened, know nothing about electricity and have no idea why the
circuit breaker for that room would not turn off if this was happening.
Of course, I discover this on a Sunday when electricians are not
available and it's 90 degrees out. This can't happen during the week or
on a cooler day.
Am I overreacting to think I need to shut this thing down? I am just
wondering how long this has been going on.
| |
| Edwin Pawlowski 2005-07-17, 6:25 pm |
|
"Ryan" <welziak@snet.net> wrote in message
quote:
>
> Am I overreacting to think I need to shut this thing down? I am just
> wondering how long this has been going on.
You NEED to shut it down. Could be a loose wire or bad receptacle, but
sparks are never a good thing. Get someone to look at it that knows what
they are doing or it could result in a fire if used.
| |
|
| Not only should you certainly shut the air conditioner off, but you
should also go to your main breaker panel (basement or closet or
wherever) and shut off the entire circuit that the outlet is on, too.
If you are not sure which breaker to switch, plug a radio turned on
loud into the outlet (or a lamp or something) and then start flipping
breakers till you find the one that stuts off the outlet.
Really. You are ripe for an electrical fire. This is a major cause of
house fires.
Go do it now. I'll wait.
Ok, got the breaker off? Now check to make sure that BOTH plugs are
shut off. It is unlikely, but you may have a "split circuit", where
the two plugs are on different circuits (in which case they are
supposed to be on one double-breaker, but diy'ers screw this up all the
time). You want NO power to that outlet box.
Now finally, dont turn that breaker on until you have the box looked at
by an electrician. A DIY'er can diagnose these things, but you say you
"know nothing about electricity", and today is not a good day to start
fiddling with wires. So call an electrician. They might recomend a new
run of wire, or upgraded circuit, or all sorts of things. You might
also ask them to poke around some of your other outlets and wiring.
Overhead lights are a cause of problems, in particular (the heat ruins
the wiring).
-Kevin
BTW -- if you haven't shut the breaker off, I wasn't kidding. I'm won't
stop writting until you do it... Well, ok, it's your house. Nevermind.
| |
| wkearney99 2005-07-17, 6:25 pm |
| > Today, I just happened to be cleaning the room and noticed what looked
quote:
> like flashes of light behind the outlet cover. I thought it was from
> the window and as I got closer I noticed it seemed to be SPARKS inside
> the outlet box! The plastic cover is also warm, but not too warm to
> touch.
>
> This is obviously not good!
Yeah, like "BURN THE HOUSE DOWN" not good. Immediately shut off that
circuit at the breaker.
Sounds like you've got loose wiring. If it's aluminum wiring you're in even
more trouble. Unless you're VERY handy with electrical work you should call
an electrician. Leave the circuit off until one can come out and fix it.
DO NOT USE THAT OUTLET UNTIL IT'S FIXED PROPERLY. And do not half-XXX it by
putting the AC unit on an extension cord to another outlet. The house is
already warning you, LISTEN TO IT.
The wires probably came loose. Either from faulty wiring, a cheap socket or
potentially issues with older aluminum wiring. If it's copper wire and it's
just come loose you /might/ be able to get away with just replace the old
outlet with a securely installed new one. But if the wire suffered damage
then it'll have to be replaced. Unless you're used to looking at wire it
can be hard to tell what is or isn't damaged.
Running an air conditioner on a circuit not designed for it often a
guaranteed way to overheat and ruin the wiring. If you really want to
continue using a window AC unit you really should consider putting in a
circuit and outlet SOLELY for that purpose. The amount of current an AC
unit draws is often more than most residential circuits can reliably handle.
Sure, they 'ought to be able' to handle it. But the various ways circuits
get installed and additions made can greatly reduce the safety of them when
high-current loads are involved. Better safe than sorry. For some that's
going to draw that much current and be expected to operate in an unattended
fashion for hours on end it's really not a good idea to take too many risks.
But meanwhile, TURN IT OFF AT THE BREAKER PANEL.
-Bill Kearney
| |
| toller 2005-07-17, 11:25 pm |
| I agree with what others have said.
However, it "probably" will be quick and easy to fix; so don't put it off
because you are afraid of it.
I would also have the other circuits checked; if one has gone bad, others
might not be far behind. Depending on the size of your house it shouldn't
take more than a couple hours and a few new outlets.
| |
| TURTLE 2005-07-17, 11:25 pm |
|
"Ryan" <welziak@snet.net> wrote in message
news:1121625438.438792.314520@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
quote:
> Help!
>
> We have an older home and an air conditioner plugged into an outlet in
> our master bedroom. Same one we've used for a few years.
>
> Today, I just happened to be cleaning the room and noticed what looked
> like flashes of light behind the outlet cover. I thought it was from
> the window and as I got closer I noticed it seemed to be SPARKS inside
> the outlet box! The plastic cover is also warm, but not too warm to
> touch.
>
> This is obviously not good! I turn off the air conditioner and it
> stops. I turn it on and after a few minutes this flashes start again.
>
> We have had this air conditioner runnings for months, even when not
> home. I can't believe this is a safe thing, but have no idea why it's
> happened, know nothing about electricity and have no idea why the
> circuit breaker for that room would not turn off if this was happening.
>
>
> Of course, I discover this on a Sunday when electricians are not
> available and it's 90 degrees out. This can't happen during the week or
> on a cooler day.
>
> Am I overreacting to think I need to shut this thing down? I am just
> wondering how long this has been going on.
>
This is Turtle.
What you have is a loose Plug and receptical. Replace the Plug and the
receptical and cure the problem. now just changing one will not cure it but
prolong it from coming back again but soon it will mess up again.
TURTLE
| |
|
|
"TURTLE" <turtle4aire@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:_GACe.95135$ho.94156@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
quote:
>
> "Ryan" <welziak@snet.net> wrote in message
> news:1121625438.438792.314520@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
>
> This is Turtle.
>
> What you have is a loose Plug and receptical. Replace
> the Plug and the receptical and cure the problem. now
> just changing one will not cure it but prolong it
> from coming back again but soon it will mess up
> again.
>
> TURTLE
>
WHAT did you say, Turt?
Sorry;you must have had one too many when you wrote
that.
And yeah, all the responses have been on target, OP.
Hope it's taken care of by now.
Pop
| |
| TURTLE 2005-07-18, 4:25 am |
|
"Pop" <nobody@devnull.spamcop.net> wrote in message
news:Ds-dndp-D-Qme0ffRVn-gQ@usadatanet.net...
quote:
>
> "TURTLE" <turtle4aire@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> news:_GACe.95135$ho.94156@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
> WHAT did you say, Turt?
>
> Sorry;you must have had one too many when you wrote that.
>
> And yeah, all the responses have been on target, OP. Hope it's taken care of
> by now.
>
> Pop
>
This is Turtle.
I see you did not read too closely here by I saying to change both plug and
receptical which nobody including yourself said that. I know for a fact if you
don't change both, you will come back to work on it again. Please read before
correcting people. And yes i can't spell too well without a dictionary.
TURTLE
| |
|
| Um. Turtle, you okay today?
Just to reiterate for the OP, who describes himself as "knowning
nothing about electricity": you really need to turn OFF the circuit,
then don't turn it back on until an electrician takes a look at a few
things. Specifically:
- the receptical will need to be replaced
- the circuit box itself may need to be replaced
- some of the wiring may need to be replaced
- the circuit breaker may need to be replaced
- the plug on the air conditioner may need to be replaced
- other outlets or wiring in the house may need to be repaired or
replaced.
And since this just seems to be a once in a lifetime love-fest of
agreement on usenet, with the exception of turtle, that is), I'll give
a hearty nod to whoever said not to be afraid of caling the
electician. It may well turn out to be just some very quick and easy
repairs, due to loose wires, or some other simple cause. Or your house
might burn down tomorrow.
-Kevin
| |
| TURTLE 2005-07-18, 4:25 am |
|
"kevin" <spamwalsh@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1121655194.386035.265630@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
quote:
> Um. Turtle, you okay today?
>
> Just to reiterate for the OP, who describes himself as "knowning
> nothing about electricity": you really need to turn OFF the circuit,
> then don't turn it back on until an electrician takes a look at a few
> things. Specifically:
> - the receptical will need to be replaced
> - the circuit box itself may need to be replaced
> - some of the wiring may need to be replaced
> - the circuit breaker may need to be replaced
> - the plug on the air conditioner may need to be replaced
> - other outlets or wiring in the house may need to be repaired or
> replaced.
>
> And since this just seems to be a once in a lifetime love-fest of
> agreement on usenet, with the exception of turtle, that is), I'll give
> a hearty nod to whoever said not to be afraid of caling the
> electician. It may well turn out to be just some very quick and easy
> repairs, due to loose wires, or some other simple cause. Or your house
> might burn down tomorrow.
>
> -Kevin
This is Turtle.
I thought that the poster before me had cover the calling or not calling a
sparky to do the work and to just turn it off at the breaker which others had
told him but my reply was to the work after the sparky came or he did the work.
Change both plug and receptical to get a proper job right and also everything
else that need to be. i guess I'm going to have to start repeating what other
have said to be right i guess.
TURTLE
| |
| G Henslee 2005-07-18, 12:25 pm |
| TURTLE wrote:
quote:
> "Pop" <nobody@devnull.spamcop.net> wrote in message
quote:
>
>
> This is Turtle.
>
> I see you did not read too closely here by I saying to change both plug and
> receptical which nobody including yourself said that. I know for a fact if you
> don't change both, you will come back to work on it again. Please read before
> correcting people. And yes i can't spell too well without a dictionary.
>
> TURTLE
>
>
More crappy advice from Poop.
--
Pop aint shit, he's just Poop
| |
|
| THANK!
Well, I did what you all asked right away, but haven't been able to
post.
The bad part is the house being old the circuit breaker box has all
kinds of names for things that don't make sense. Like there is a
breaker for "pool" when there is no sign in the yard there ever was
one, so I can't tell what it's referring to. Same with some other
circuits. Also, odd things occur like the kitchen microwave and stove
are on the same line as the guest room above it.
That said, something is now even more wrong.
The master bedroom has no power now to half of it including the outlet
the AC was in, the ceiling light, etc. The other half of the room works
fine. Even when all breakers are on, half of that room is now dead and
no breaker ever tripped. We did change the one plug where the sparks
were coming from, but that whole side of the room went dead.
We have unplugged EVERYTHING from those outlets, kept it off and called
an electrician, who can't come until Tuesday afternoon. We are now
sleeping in the guest room because of the no power/AC problem in the
master.
How can you loose power to half a room without a breaker tripping? I
am very nervous about this, but other than keeping everything off and
waiting for the electrician, I am unsure what else to do.
| |
| Edwin Pawlowski 2005-07-18, 12:25 pm |
|
"Ryan" <welziak@snet.net> wrote in message
quote:
> How can you loose power to half a room without a breaker tripping? I
> am very nervous about this, but other than keeping everything off and
> waiting for the electrician, I am unsure what else to do.
>
While it may seem odd to you, it is done intentionally. Houses are wired in
such a way that losing one circuit in a room will not render the room
useless. Receptacles on the front wall are on one line while the ones on
the opposite wall will be on another even though they may be in the same
room.
| |
| Duane Bozarth 2005-07-18, 12:25 pm |
| Ryan wrote:
quote:
>
> THANK!
>
....
quote:
> ...Also, odd things occur like the kitchen microwave and stove
> are on the same line as the guest room above it.
The stove had <better> be a dedicated 220V circuit...unless you're
meaning something other than an electric range???
quote:
> That said, something is now even more wrong.
If the above is even remotely close to true, you have some <serious>
problems, agreed. Sounds like an abomination of previous "home
handyman"... 
.....
quote:
> How can you loose power to half a room without a breaker tripping? I
> am very nervous about this, but other than keeping everything off and
> waiting for the electrician, I am unsure what else to do.
Lose of ground or other break somewhere in the feed...
You're doing the right thing--I would strongly recommend you get the
fella' to check the whole house while there. It sounds to me like your
situation is one that is ripe for a complete upgrade.
When did you purchase this house and was an inspection done at the
time? If recent, and depending on state disclosure rules, inspections
done, etc., etc., and the actual cause(s) of the problems, you just
<might> have some recourse against the seller...
| |
|
| "When did you purchase this house and was an inspection done at the
time?"
I purchased the house 5 years ago and it was inspected by a well known
local inspector who, except for a few small items that were not
electrical) said the house was in outstanding condition for being 75
years old. You know, the seller was an 80 year old woman who's husband
(aka handyman) had died so she probably wouldn't have known much. They
owned the house for 40 years, but we found all kinds of odd repairs as
we redid the rooms after buying it (paint, carpet, etc.. no electrical
changes)
We have never had something like this happen before. And, we have run
the AC on that same outlet for a couple of years without any problems
until yesterday.
All will stay off until the electrician can arrive. I guess that's all
we can do. Hope the repair of this isn't a nightmare.
| |
| wkearney99 2005-07-18, 6:25 pm |
| > The bad part is the house being old the circuit breaker box has all
quote:
> kinds of names for things that don't make sense. Like there is a
> breaker for "pool" when there is no sign in the yard there ever was
> one, so I can't tell what it's referring to. Same with some other
> circuits. Also, odd things occur like the kitchen microwave and stove
> are on the same line as the guest room above it.
>
> That said, something is now even more wrong.
Prepare your checkbook. You're in need of some serious rewiring. While it
may end up costing a grand or two that's a lot less expensive than dealing
with a house fire.
The pool breaker might have been for an above-ground type. Or for a room
that had a pool table. Rooms tied into odd parts of circuits can be
directly attributed to someone being lazy. Someone wanted to add an outlet
and rather than run a new wire to the panel they just pulled it off
something they found nearby. Once upon a time the power loads needed for
rooms (including kitchens) was quite a bit lower. Tying a bedroom and
bathroom together it wasn't a big deal. That is until they started making
the high wattage accessories we all use these days.
quote:
> The master bedroom has no power now to half of it including the outlet
> the AC was in, the ceiling light, etc. The other half of the room works
> fine. Even when all breakers are on, half of that room is now dead and
> no breaker ever tripped. We did change the one plug where the sparks
> were coming from, but that whole side of the room went dead.
Sounds like you have wiring being chained from once place to another or
perhaps worse.
And did you replace the plug (the part on the end of the wire) or the outlet
(the part mounted in the wall junction box)?
quote:
> We have unplugged EVERYTHING from those outlets, kept it off and called
> an electrician, who can't come until Tuesday afternoon. We are now
> sleeping in the guest room because of the no power/AC problem in the
> master.
This really is your best course of action. Turn off as much as you can from
the breakers. It would be a real tragedy to have this escalate into an
electrical fire between now and when the electrician can come take a look.
If there's not one in there already, put a smoke alarm up in the bedroom.
quote:
> How can you loose power to half a room without a breaker tripping? I
> am very nervous about this, but other than keeping everything off and
> waiting for the electrician, I am unsure what else to do.
Well, if the wire to the outlets comes loose you'll certainly lose power.
The wire could come loose without tripping a breaker. Or you could have
disturbed enough of it to break the connection while you had the breaker off
replacing the outlet (if you did, that is).
YES, you should BE NERVOUS. Make sure your smoke alarms are working.
| |
| Duane Bozarth 2005-07-18, 6:25 pm |
| Ryan wrote:
quote:
>
> "When did you purchase this house and was an inspection done at the
> time?"
>
> I purchased the house 5 years ago and it was inspected by a well known
> local inspector who, except for a few small items that were not
> electrical) said the house was in outstanding condition for being 75
> years old. You know, the seller was an 80 year old woman who's husband
> (aka handyman) had died so she probably wouldn't have known much. They
> owned the house for 40 years, but we found all kinds of odd repairs as
> we redid the rooms after buying it (paint, carpet, etc.. no electrical
> changes)
>
> We have never had something like this happen before. And, we have run
> the AC on that same outlet for a couple of years without any problems
> until yesterday.
>
> All will stay off until the electrician can arrive. I guess that's all
> we can do. Hope the repair of this isn't a nightmare.
I'd be budgeting...
For a house of that age, if the bulk of the wiring is still original as
I would presume it to be, the initial service was probably (maybe) 50A.
It has undoubtedly been added on to over the years, and if, as sounds
likely from what you've discovered eleswhere, it was done by the former
homeowner(s) who didn't know much about what he (they) was (were) doing,
it's quite likely there are any number of latent problems waiting to
cause future grief. The real thing w/ wiring shortcomings is that they
have potentially disasterous consequences and the incipient locations
often are totally obscured. For example, who knows how many junction
boxes there are that were simply covered up? Any one of those could
have a loose connection which could heat and be the ignition source for
a major fire. Didn't see it mentioned anywhere in the thread, but you
haven't found any Al wiring, have you? If so, I think it's even more of
a potentially dangerous situation.
Not trying to be <excessively> melodramatic here, but w/ the symptoms
you're describing, I believe you need to treat it as a serious problem
at least until it's confirmed not to be.
After 5 years you probably do have no practical recourse...sounds like
the inspection might have been a little lackadaisical, but then again,
most of them are.
| |
| wkearney99 2005-07-18, 6:25 pm |
| > I see you did not read too closely here by I saying to change both plug
and
quote:
> receptical which nobody including yourself said that. I know for a fact if
you
quote:
> don't change both, you will come back to work on it again.
No, without actually seeing it in real life you certainly don't "know". It
may be a perfectly good plug on the end of that wire. The socket's grip on
it might also be perfect. It might be the connections made to the side of
the outlet. It might also be badly crimped or aluminum wires inside the
junction box. But without actually SEEING it you're just guessing. And a
guess when it's electrical is a BAD IDEA.
| |
| Edwin Pawlowski 2005-07-18, 6:26 pm |
|
"Duane Bozarth" <dpbozarth@swko.dot.net> wrote in message
news:42DBBA04.24F78BB@swko.dot.net...
quote:
> Ryan wrote:
> ...
>
> The stove had <better> be a dedicated 220V circuit...unless you're
> meaning something other than an electric range???
Typical gas range uses 110 to operate a light and a timer.
| |
| Duane Bozarth 2005-07-18, 6:26 pm |
| Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
quote:
>
> "Duane Bozarth" <dpbozarth@swko.dot.net> wrote in message
> news:42DBBA04.24F78BB@swko.dot.net...
>
> Typical gas range uses 110 to operate a light and a timer.
That's true...had a reaction of "omigawsh, the guy didn't split off a
110 from the stove to drive the rest of the counter top, did he?"
reaction when I read it thinking of electric range....I assume that your
surmise is <probably> (and hopefully) the correct one. I think the
above is not <current> code, though, is it?
| |
| Steve@carolinabreezehvac.com 2005-07-18, 6:26 pm |
|
"Ryan" <welziak@snet.net> wrote in message
news:1121697987.983263.118030@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
quote:
> "When did you purchase this house and was an inspection done at the
> time?"
>
> I purchased the house 5 years ago and it was inspected by a well known
> local inspector who, except for a few small items that were not
> electrical) said the house was in outstanding condition for being 75
> years old. You know, the seller was an 80 year old woman who's husband
> (aka handyman) had died so she probably wouldn't have known much. They
> owned the house for 40 years, but we found all kinds of odd repairs as
> we redid the rooms after buying it (paint, carpet, etc.. no electrical
> changes)
>
> We have never had something like this happen before. And, we have run
> the AC on that same outlet for a couple of years without any problems
> until yesterday.
This comment right here..thanks for posting it...seriously.
This is why we often times say, GET A PRO, period. Sometimes, when there are
things that you cant see, WE sure cant see them over the net and the
liability of trying to help feel around, as it were, in the dark (dark being
the internet) isnt worth it.
Sometimes you have problems from day one, even thou things seem to work
fine. When they fail, and things are put back right, is when you find you
have larger issues...or the original screw up caused more than you realized.
This time of year is when the bad stuff shows up and all of us get behind.
Im so far behind right now I cant see daylight and the ONLY reason Im on now
is to send a mail to a customer.
Good luck and hope it all works out.
quote:
>
> All will stay off until the electrician can arrive. I guess that's all
> we can do. Hope the repair of this isn't a nightmare.
>
| |
|
|
(If only I knew who Poop was)
In any event, I have discovered a close relative has a friend who does
electrical work. He is coming by to look at it. If I am lucky, they
can find the cause and not charge me a grand for doing so. I know
computers, but I don't know electrical and half a room going dead with
no breakers flipped leaved me clueless. I wouldn't dare mess with this
unless I know what I was doing.. so we'll wait for a professional.
| |
|
| Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
quote:
> "Ryan" <welziak@snet.net> wrote in message
>
>
>
> While it may seem odd to you, it is done intentionally. Houses are wired in
> such a way that losing one circuit in a room will not render the room
> useless. Receptacles on the front wall are on one line while the ones on
> the opposite wall will be on another even though they may be in the same
> room.
>
>
To add to the confusion, some single receptacles are wired 1/2 to one
circuit, the other half to another.
This is why you must check both halves for current before messing with
the wiring.
--
If you find a posting or message from myself offensive,
inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know
how to ignore a posting,complain to me and I will demonstrate.
| |
|
| Ryan wrote:
quote:
> "When did you purchase this house and was an inspection done at the
> time?"
>
> I purchased the house 5 years ago and it was inspected by a well known
> local inspector who, except for a few small items that were not
> electrical) said the house was in outstanding condition for being 75
> years old. You know, the seller was an 80 year old woman who's husband
> (aka handyman) had died so she probably wouldn't have known much. They
> owned the house for 40 years, but we found all kinds of odd repairs as
> we redid the rooms after buying it (paint, carpet, etc.. no electrical
> changes)
>
> We have never had something like this happen before. And, we have run
> the AC on that same outlet for a couple of years without any problems
> until yesterday.
>
> All will stay off until the electrician can arrive. I guess that's all
> we can do. Hope the repair of this isn't a nightmare.
>
I hope so too. Given all the conditions you've mentioned I'd expect
cloth-insulated wiring on insulator posts inside the walls.
I hope I'm wrong, and wish you the best of luck.
--
If you find a posting or message from myself offensive,
inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know
how to ignore a posting,complain to me and I will demonstrate.
| |
| Duane Bozarth 2005-07-24, 9:07 pm |
| Ryan wrote:
....snip...tale of sparky...
So, what did your friendly electrician find out?
|
|
|
|
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