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Home > Archive > Home Repair forum > July 2005 > GFCI - New Jersey
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| My neighbor is selling his house in NJ and was told by a house
inspector that he has to have a GFCI by the stove and by the sink in
his 50 year old Cape Cod house.
The house has NO ground wire on the Romex since it was built.
I was always led to believe that even if you have a GFCI with NO GROUND
WIRE that you have SOME PROTECTION.
In other words, ONLY 2 WIRES - BLACK AND WHITE are connected to the
GFCI.
Would this hookup - only 2 wires and NO ground - meet a NJ home
inspection requirement ??
What about a GFCI BREAKER for the entire circuit ???
Pass inspection ???
TIA
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"Zing" <dhssux513@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1121704201.987546.119780@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
quote:
> My neighbor is selling his house in NJ and was told by a house
> inspector that he has to have a GFCI by the stove and by the sink in
> his 50 year old Cape Cod house.
>
> The house has NO ground wire on the Romex since it was built.
>
> I was always led to believe that even if you have a GFCI with NO GROUND
> WIRE that you have SOME PROTECTION.
> In other words, ONLY 2 WIRES - BLACK AND WHITE are connected to the
> GFCI.
>
> Would this hookup - only 2 wires and NO ground - meet a NJ home
> inspection requirement ??
>
> What about a GFCI BREAKER for the entire circuit ???
> Pass inspection ???
>
> TIA
>
Here in NY, a GFCI has to be installed on an outlet that has an open ground.
In effect, the GFCI acts as they safety. I'd say the house inspector is
right.
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| Chip C 2005-07-18, 6:26 pm |
| Zing wrote:
quote:
> My neighbor is selling his house in NJ and was told by a house
> inspector that he has to have a GFCI by the stove and by the sink in
> his 50 year old Cape Cod house.
Might be true. I believe U.S. code requires GFCI for all kitchen
outlets in *new* construction or reno's. In theory "current code"
doesn't apply to older homes but some localities have passed vague laws
requiring updating old places to code when sold (if they're serious
about this, it's a huge burden) and some inspectors selectively look
for key things that provide big value easily. GFCI's are in that
category, like smoke alarms, stair handrails etc.
quote:
> The house has NO ground wire on the Romex since it was built.
Not surprising.
quote:
> I was always led to believe that even if you have a GFCI with NO GROUND
> WIRE that you have SOME PROTECTION.
> In other words, ONLY 2 WIRES - BLACK AND WHITE are connected to the
> GFCI.
Quite right. Full protection from ground-faults is provided regardless
of whether the gfci outlet has a ground connection or not. In fact,
gfci outlets are the recommended upgrade to un-grounded circuits, where
you don't want to bother replacing the old cable with grounded stuff.
They provide significant protection against electrocution in the event
of wiring faults within the appliance, which is what the ground wire is
supposed to do. (Installing grounded outlets on ungrounded circuits is
prohibited. Connecting the ground pin to neutral is a big mistake.)
The GFCI outlet will come with a little sticker that says "no equipment
ground" (probably also ones in French and Spanish). To meet code this
sticker must be on the outlet faceplate when the inspector looks at it.
However, plug-in gfci testers won't work (they won't trip the outlet).
The outlet's built-in test button should work fine.
quote:
> Would this hookup - only 2 wires and NO ground - meet a NJ home
> inspection requirement ??
Nobody can answer this better than the inspector that you spoke with.
Localities (not just states, but counties and cities) can set rules
over and above national codes, and inspectors can have their own
"interpretations". Having said all that, I would say that I would
certainly expect it to pass and I'd presume that it's exactly what the
inspector had in mind when he spoke to your neighbour.
quote:
> What about a GFCI BREAKER for the entire circuit ???
I believe it would provide equivalent protection, but ...
quote:
> Pass inspection ???
Dunno. Some inspectors prefer outlets, presumably for convenience of
resetting. And the breaker will likely cost more than two outlets, *if*
you can even get one for a 50-year-old panel.
And if these outlets are on the same circuit, then they could be
protected by one outlet, if the wires are fed from one to the other.
You need the same sticker on both outlets, and the downstream one
should get the sticker that says "protected by GFCI". (Can the
downstream outlet be replaced by a three-prong one? Hmmm. Dunno.)
The only case where I'd go to any trouble to avoid installing GFCI
outlets is if the old plug boxes were too small for a GFCI *and* it was
going to be really difficult to replace them. Like they were in solid
masonry walls or something.
Chip C
Toronto
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| barry@sme-online.com 2005-07-18, 6:26 pm |
| Excuse me, but "house inspector" said that? Of the ones I've seen, the
subtelty that escapes them would be "new work" in code requirements.
GFCI might be required in new work next to sink(s), but not required to
be retrofit. Even if it's a good idea.
Assuming your neighbor has a compatible breaker panel, one could put
circuit on GFCI breaker. If not, he could ask "inspector" for
specifics, for 50-yr-old house, and/or tell him to pound sand.
Never mind that most "house inspectors" are most charitably described
as hacks, whose main (only) purpose is to do nothing to offend the
referrer (generally a realtor) for future referrals, and give his payor
some arm-waving. IOW, a joke.
Now, a "building inspector" would be a wholly different critter- a
code-enforcment officer who will pass/fail a real inspection. And
maybe deny a C.O. He/she would not be confused by grandfathered work.
HTH,
John
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<barry@sme-online.com> wrote in message
news:1121709795.145509.183360@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
quote:
> Excuse me, but "house inspector" said that? Of the ones I've seen, the
> subtelty that escapes them would be "new work" in code requirements.
> GFCI might be required in new work next to sink(s), but not required to
> be retrofit. Even if it's a good idea.
>
> Assuming your neighbor has a compatible breaker panel, one could put
> circuit on GFCI breaker. If not, he could ask "inspector" for
> specifics, for 50-yr-old house, and/or tell him to pound sand.
>
> Never mind that most "house inspectors" are most charitably described
> as hacks, whose main (only) purpose is to do nothing to offend the
> referrer (generally a realtor) for future referrals, and give his payor
> some arm-waving. IOW, a joke.
>
> Now, a "building inspector" would be a wholly different critter- a
> code-enforcment officer who will pass/fail a real inspection. And
> maybe deny a C.O. He/she would not be confused by grandfathered work.
>
> HTH,
> John
>
When we got our present house inspected prior to closing, he said that the
outlets by the sink should be GFCI. Now it's not like the inspector has any
power to do anyhting about it. He's just relaying how things should be.
It's up to the homeowner or buyer to do it or not.
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"FDR" <_remove_spam_block_rzitka@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:h4RCe.34843$e%5.21204@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
quote:
>
> "Zing" <dhssux513@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:1121704201.987546.119780@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
> Here in NY, a GFCI has to be installed on an outlet that has an open
ground.
quote:
> In effect, the GFCI acts as they safety. I'd say the house inspector is
> right.
Bull shit. the house infector is dead wrong. ( intentional )
The only building code that can be in forced is the one the house built
under or its renovations. Unless your local building department has
rules/laws that are draconian.
Call the local folks and ask before you believe any home infector.
I buy and sell real-estate frequently. I have NEVER met a home infector that
has all of his marbles in the right basket. Remember they are working for
the buyer and there for are not impartial.
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| Robert E. Lewis 2005-07-18, 11:25 pm |
|
"FDR" <_remove_spam_block_rzitka@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:sYSCe.35921$e%5.7952@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
quote:
>
> <barry@sme-online.com> wrote in message
> news:1121709795.145509.183360@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> When we got our present house inspected prior to closing, he said that the
> outlets by the sink should be GFCI. Now it's not like the inspector has
any
quote:
> power to do anyhting about it. He's just relaying how things should be.
> It's up to the homeowner or buyer to do it or not.
I was at the home inspection of a house a friend is buying this morning, and
the subject came up. It's 25+ year-old construction, so GFCIs weren't
required when it was built. The inspector put little stickers with "GFCI"
printed on them on the outlets in the bathroom, kitchen and outside.
He explained that while it's not required for a home this old, they (home
inspectors, in Texas) are required to list the lack of a GFCI in those
locations as something requiring repair. It's up to my friend and the seller
to negotiate who pays for this repair/upgrade, if they want to.
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| I'd like to know why the house inspector is arbitrarily picking the non
grounded outlets. If the house was built fifty years ago virtually none of
the wiring meets current code, so why not tell you to rewire it entirely?
"Zing" <dhssux513@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1121704201.987546.119780@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
quote:
> My neighbor is selling his house in NJ and was told by a house
> inspector that he has to have a GFCI by the stove and by the sink in
> his 50 year old Cape Cod house.
>
> The house has NO ground wire on the Romex since it was built.
>
> I was always led to believe that even if you have a GFCI with NO GROUND
> WIRE that you have SOME PROTECTION.
> In other words, ONLY 2 WIRES - BLACK AND WHITE are connected to the
> GFCI.
>
> Would this hookup - only 2 wires and NO ground - meet a NJ home
> inspection requirement ??
>
> What about a GFCI BREAKER for the entire circuit ???
> Pass inspection ???
>
> TIA
>
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"RBM" <rbm2(remove this)@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:L1WCe.16913$js.4426@fe10.lga...
quote:
> I'd like to know why the house inspector is arbitrarily picking the non
> grounded outlets. If the house was built fifty years ago virtually none of
> the wiring meets current code, so why not tell you to rewire it entirely?
GFCI are supposed to be used within 6 ft of a wet source (sink, tub)
quote:
> "Zing" <dhssux513@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:1121704201.987546.119780@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
>
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"SQLit" <sqlit@qwest.net> wrote in message
news:HeUCe.42$Oa2.12203@news.uswest.net...
quote:
>
> "FDR" <_remove_spam_block_rzitka@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:h4RCe.34843$e%5.21204@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
> ground.
>
> Bull shit. the house infector is dead wrong. ( intentional )
>
> The only building code that can be in forced is the one the house built
> under or its renovations. Unless your local building department has
> rules/laws that are draconian.
Of course. But they can still tell you that a GFCI should be at a certain
location.
quote:
>
> Call the local folks and ask before you believe any home infector.
>
> I buy and sell real-estate frequently. I have NEVER met a home infector
> that
> has all of his marbles in the right basket. Remember they are working for
> the buyer and there for are not impartial.
>
>
>
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| George 2005-07-18, 11:25 pm |
| FDR wrote:
quote:
> "RBM" <rbm2(remove this)@optonline.net> wrote in message
> news:L1WCe.16913$js.4426@fe10.lga...
>
>
>
> GFCI are supposed to be used within 6 ft of a wet source (sink, tub)
For new construction or renovation. The building codes in force at the
date of construction govern what is required unless a specfic law
requires current codes be applied.
This is a common problem when selling a house. A have a few friends who
were the executor for relatives estates. They would present the house
for sale and the buyers lender would send a "house inspector" who would
produce an extensive list of missing items if current codes were applied.
It really defies all logic. The buyer is getting a good deal on a house
that is probably 40% less than a new house and can perform whatever
modifications they want when they can afford them.
quote:
>
>
>
>
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"George" <george@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
news:aeqdnUYQ45HL3EHfRVn-oA@adelphia.com...
quote:
> FDR wrote:
>
>
> For new construction or renovation. The building codes in force at the
> date of construction govern what is required unless a specfic law requires
> current codes be applied.
>
> This is a common problem when selling a house. A have a few friends who
> were the executor for relatives estates. They would present the house for
> sale and the buyers lender would send a "house inspector" who would
> produce an extensive list of missing items if current codes were applied.
>
> It really defies all logic. The buyer is getting a good deal on a house
> that is probably 40% less than a new house and can perform whatever
> modifications they want when they can afford them.
I'm sure that if it's priced right then it will sell. OTOH, if it isn't you
can make the modifications which measn the buyer has less leverage against
you and you can try for a higher price.
[vbcol=seagreen]
>
>
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| I still believe the whole process is arbitrary and wrong. They'll tell you
to install gfci's but don't mention afci's. They'll tell you the non
grounded romex is not up to code, but neither is grounded NMB but that
wouldn't be written up. It just seems to me that the house inspection
industry should have universal standards and clear intentions and not allude
to these things as being violations but instead refer to them as upgrades
"FDR" <_remove_spam_block_rzitka@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:wGXCe.35956$e%5.32205@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
quote:
>
> "George" <george@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
> news:aeqdnUYQ45HL3EHfRVn-oA@adelphia.com...
>
> I'm sure that if it's priced right then it will sell. OTOH, if it isn't
> you can make the modifications which measn the buyer has less leverage
> against you and you can try for a higher price.
>
>
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| Vic Dura 2005-07-19, 6:25 pm |
| On Mon, 18 Jul 2005 13:25:07 -0700, in alt.home.repair RE: Re: GFCI -
New Jersey "SQLit" <sqlit@qwest.net> wrote:
quote:
>The only building code that can be in forced is the one the house built
>under or its renovations. Unless your local building department has
>rules/laws that are draconian.
I have relatives that live in NJ. I would indeed describe their state
& local governments as "draconian". I'm amazed (but thankful) that
anyone would continue to live in a state like that.
--
To reply to me directly, remove the CLUTTER from my email address.
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| George 2005-07-19, 11:25 pm |
| FDR wrote:
quote:
>
>
> I'm sure that if it's priced right then it will sell. OTOH, if it isn't you
> can make the modifications which measn the buyer has less leverage against
> you and you can try for a higher price.
>
The price isn't the issue. The lender's "house inspector" produces a
huge list of items that are based on the house complying with all
current codes as of the date of inspection. If not done the lender will
not grant the loan.
Unfortunately the lists they produce are quite extensive and it would
make no economic sense to do them.
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"George" <george@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
news:QsqdnTLZkphC5kDfRVn-hA@adelphia.com...
quote:
> FDR wrote:
>
>
>
> The price isn't the issue. The lender's "house inspector" produces a huge
> list of items that are based on the house complying with all current codes
> as of the date of inspection. If not done the lender will not grant the
> loan.
Can't you find a different lender?
quote:
>
> Unfortunately the lists they produce are quite extensive and it would make
> no economic sense to do them.
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| ~^Johnny^~ 2005-07-24, 9:06 pm |
| -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
On Wed, 20 Jul 2005 01:24:26 GMT, "FDR"
<_remove_spam_block_rzitka@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Can't you find a different lender?
I wish my creditors would leave me a loan.
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--
-john
wide-open at throttle dot info
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