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Home > Archive > Home Repair forum > July 2005 > gutter repair and damp basement
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gutter repair and damp basement
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| bspitnews@yahoo.com 2005-07-18, 11:25 pm |
| Hi All,
I'm a newbie to this group and did a search but found nothing specific
to my problem.
Situation: I have a twin roof house with the second roof over attached
garage and spare bedroom. Each roof has 2 downspouts, front and back.
The house was built with a raised foundation by increasing the ground
level due to high water table. The primary roof has down spouts that
spill onto lawn (westside) and yes, I've extended the spillway several
feet from the house. The second roof's rain water spills out onto the
driveway (eastside). The driveway spillway is a recent addition that
has improved /reduced the rain water water table problem. In addition,
I have a sump well and pump to remove water about 2 feet or less below
basement floor. Finally, both roof gutters have a slight sag due to
age, causing 25% of rain water to over flow gutters during heavy rains.
Problem: Rain water from primary roof gets into basement causing
dampness.
Thoughts: I am thinking about having the gutter redone with pitch
sloping towards second roof (east) and move downspout to east end of
primary roof so that rain water spills onto second roof. My aim is to
get rain water into street and down the sewer drain.
Question: What are problems with such a design? Is this even advisable?
Should I have sump well made deeper?
Thanks in advance - Burnt home owner
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| Use oversized gutters and downspouts. They cost a lot more but should help
in your case.
<bspitnews@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1121729165.100658.79090@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
quote:
> Hi All,
>
> I'm a newbie to this group and did a search but found nothing specific
> to my problem.
>
> Situation: I have a twin roof house with the second roof over attached
> garage and spare bedroom. Each roof has 2 downspouts, front and back.
> The house was built with a raised foundation by increasing the ground
> level due to high water table. The primary roof has down spouts that
> spill onto lawn (westside) and yes, I've extended the spillway several
> feet from the house. The second roof's rain water spills out onto the
> driveway (eastside). The driveway spillway is a recent addition that
> has improved /reduced the rain water water table problem. In addition,
> I have a sump well and pump to remove water about 2 feet or less below
> basement floor. Finally, both roof gutters have a slight sag due to
> age, causing 25% of rain water to over flow gutters during heavy rains.
>
> Problem: Rain water from primary roof gets into basement causing
> dampness.
>
> Thoughts: I am thinking about having the gutter redone with pitch
> sloping towards second roof (east) and move downspout to east end of
> primary roof so that rain water spills onto second roof. My aim is to
> get rain water into street and down the sewer drain.
>
> Question: What are problems with such a design? Is this even advisable?
> Should I have sump well made deeper?
>
> Thanks in advance - Burnt home owner
>
| |
| CL (dnoyeB) Gilbert 2005-07-18, 11:25 pm |
| bspitnews@yahoo.com wrote:
quote:
> Hi All,
>
> I'm a newbie to this group and did a search but found nothing specific
> to my problem.
>
> Situation: I have a twin roof house with the second roof over attached
> garage and spare bedroom. Each roof has 2 downspouts, front and back.
> The house was built with a raised foundation by increasing the ground
> level due to high water table. The primary roof has down spouts that
> spill onto lawn (westside) and yes, I've extended the spillway several
> feet from the house. The second roof's rain water spills out onto the
> driveway (eastside). The driveway spillway is a recent addition that
> has improved /reduced the rain water water table problem. In addition,
> I have a sump well and pump to remove water about 2 feet or less below
> basement floor. Finally, both roof gutters have a slight sag due to
> age, causing 25% of rain water to over flow gutters during heavy rains.
>
> Problem: Rain water from primary roof gets into basement causing
> dampness.
>
> Thoughts: I am thinking about having the gutter redone with pitch
> sloping towards second roof (east) and move downspout to east end of
> primary roof so that rain water spills onto second roof. My aim is to
> get rain water into street and down the sewer drain.
>
> Question: What are problems with such a design? Is this even advisable?
> Should I have sump well made deeper?
>
> Thanks in advance - Burnt home owner
>
I dont think the dept of the sump well will affect anything. The depth
of the drain tiles would, but the sump wont. If your sump is
functioning then this water must be leaking in through the walls. I
think since you identified the problem with the roof, its probably
easiest to fix that.
--
Respectfully,
CL Gilbert
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| bspitnews@yahoo.com 2005-07-19, 12:26 pm |
| Hi Art,
Thanks for the reply. I do have another question about rediredting the
spillway. Will directing spillway onto second roof, damage the second
roof's shingles?
Thank you in advance, your help is greatly appreciated.
Sincerely - Burnt
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| bspitnews@yahoo.com 2005-07-19, 12:26 pm |
| Hi Gilbert,
Thanks for the reply. Please excuse my ignorance, but what are drain
tiles?
BTW, I agree, I think the water is coming in through the walls. I just
thought that by lowering the water table, water pressure on the
basement walls would be reduced.
On another note, will redirecting spillway onto second roof damage
shingles on second roof?
Thanks in advance - Burnt
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|
| Not likely. But on re-reading your original post, why do you need to pitch
gutters to reach the roof. Gutters are better off level so they don't clog
as quickly.
<bspitnews@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1121779541.742177.221860@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
quote:
> Hi Art,
>
> Thanks for the reply. I do have another question about rediredting the
> spillway. Will directing spillway onto second roof, damage the second
> roof's shingles?
>
> Thank you in advance, your help is greatly appreciated.
>
> Sincerely - Burnt
>
| |
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| Drain tiles are just a fancy word for for the underground pipes with holes
to drain water from around the foundation. They are usually surrounded by
fabric to keep mud out and gravel which again is surrounded by fabric to
keep separate from mud.
<bspitnews@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1121779845.398246.301520@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
quote:
> Hi Gilbert,
>
> Thanks for the reply. Please excuse my ignorance, but what are drain
> tiles?
>
> BTW, I agree, I think the water is coming in through the walls. I just
> thought that by lowering the water table, water pressure on the
> basement walls would be reduced.
>
> On another note, will redirecting spillway onto second roof damage
> shingles on second roof?
>
> Thanks in advance - Burnt
>
| |
| CL (dnoyeB) Gilbert 2005-07-19, 6:25 pm |
| bspitnews@yahoo.com wrote:
quote:
> Hi Gilbert,
>
> Thanks for the reply. Please excuse my ignorance, but what are drain
> tiles?
>
> BTW, I agree, I think the water is coming in through the walls. I just
> thought that by lowering the water table, water pressure on the
> basement walls would be reduced.
>
> On another note, will redirecting spillway onto second roof damage
> shingles on second roof?
>
> Thanks in advance - Burnt
>
Drain 'tiles' are the pipes that run typically around the perimeter of
your foundation. They are plastic and have holes in them for the water
to seep into. The water level around your foundation should be no
higher than the height of the drain tiles. The tiles are piped into
your basement floor where they are then piped into your sump pit. The
water falls into the sump pit from a pipe, it does not raise from the
bottom.
So if you want to lower the level of water you have to lower the drain
tiles. And if you lower the drain tiles you will probably need to lower
the sump pit.
But I doubt seriously that this is the problem. google for
keepbasementdry2.pdf. You should find this document on
misterfix-it.com. it will explain quite a bit to you.
i dont know if more water will damage the 2nd roof. I doubt it. just
make sure the downspot can handle it, as you only have prolems in heavy
rain anyway IIRC.
--
Respectfully,
CL Gilbert
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| Doug Boulter 2005-07-24, 9:06 pm |
| bspitnews@yahoo.com wrote on 19 Jul 2005:
> I just
> thought that by lowering the water table, water pressure on the
> basement walls would be reduced.
Your ability to lower the water table without major pumps is about
nil.
The good news is that it likely isn't the water table. Does water
flow into the basement on days when it isn't raining? No? Then
it's probably rain water either temporarily raising the water
table, or, more likely, running from the roof down the exterior
basement walls.
Drain tile helps with both problems, but a roof's worth of hard
rain can easily overwhelm gravity or a sump pump.
Fix the gutters and the ground slope before you do any other work!
--
Doug Boulter
To reply by e-mail, remove the obvious word from the e-mail address
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| Hi Art,
In all plumbing that is not pump assisted, including the ancient
waterways of Italy, the pathway has a pitch such that it uses the force
of gravity to move the water or sewage. The pitch is very minor maybe 1
or 2 degrees. In plumbers math, I think the rule of thumb is 1 inch per
10 feet or something like that.
Anyway, the current pitch is towards the west side of the house and the
second roof is on the east side. This may be different for gutters as
you mentioned they accumlate debris. However, I had gutter guards added
in hopes of reducing rain water overflow due to clogged gutters.
Unfortunately, they still overflow due to a sag in the gutters, middle
section of primary roof overflows during heavy rain. I should have had
them check the pitch also, my bad.
Thanks for all the advice, it is greatly appreciated.
Sincerely - Burnt
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|
| Hi Gilbert,
Thanks for the information, I learn something new everyday.
BTW, my drain tiles are between 8 inches to a foot below the basement
floor. The drain tile is about 4 inches in diameter.
On anoter note, I can see the water table, as I've used a shop vac to
remove water below the pump in the sump pit. The water table just seeps
into the pit. This was done when I was trying to diagnose and devise a
solution
Hopefully, when I have the gutter work done my problems will be gone.
Thanks again for all the help and information. I greatly appreciate
your efforts.
Sincerely - Burnt
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| Hi Doug,
Actually, I did get water flow into the basement twice without heavy
rain. They happened during a couple of hard winters (different winters)
a week or so after a series of big snow storm, while the snow was
melting. The sump pit had overflowed and the pump had broke. However,
this is a very rare occurance that I can live with.
Thanks for the advice, I will be fixing the gutters.
Unfortunately, there is nothing I can do about the ground slope. The
house's foundation was raised such that ground level is about 2 feet
above street level. With an additional elevation of 5 steps (nearly 2
feet) to the front door. Some time in the future, I will talk with a
landscaping friend regrading the front lawn per your advice.
Unfortunately, the backyard has a full length patio, i.e. flat
concrete. Nothing I can do about that.
BTW, based on prior discussion, I will not be doing any work on the
sump pit or lowering the drain tile. However, is there a way to upgrade
the efficiency of the existing drain tile without tearing up the
foundation? If yes, then this will be a future project, after the
grading of the front lawn.
Thank you for your advice, your help was greatly appreciated.
Sincerely - Burnt
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| CL (dnoyeB) Gilbert 2005-07-24, 9:07 pm |
| Burnt wrote:
> Hi Gilbert,
>
> Thanks for the information, I learn something new everyday.
>
> BTW, my drain tiles are between 8 inches to a foot below the basement
> floor. The drain tile is about 4 inches in diameter.
Wow, thats great.
>
> On anoter note, I can see the water table, as I've used a shop vac to
> remove water below the pump in the sump pit. The water table just seeps
> into the pit. This was done when I was trying to diagnose and devise a
> solution
yea me too, when I clean my pit. But my pit does not hold water like
yourse. My sump is at the bottom of my pit. If I turn off my sump the
water will fill up to a certain point and stop. But thats just because
the outside is filling up. Installation of drain tiles and sump pit
_lowers_ the water table. So the level you are seeing is probably not
final. If you turn off the sump for a long while (depending on your
volume of ground water) it will raise to its natural level.
So it sounds like your sump pit does have the water come in from the
bottom, and not drop in from the top so to speak?
>
> Hopefully, when I have the gutter work done my problems will be gone.
>
> Thanks again for all the help and information. I greatly appreciate
> your efforts.
>
> Sincerely - Burnt
>
Good luck.
--
Respectfully,
CL Gilbert
| |
| CL (dnoyeB) Gilbert 2005-07-24, 9:07 pm |
| Burnt wrote:
> Hi Doug,
>
> Actually, I did get water flow into the basement twice without heavy
> rain. They happened during a couple of hard winters (different winters)
> a week or so after a series of big snow storm, while the snow was
> melting. The sump pit had overflowed and the pump had broke. However,
> this is a very rare occurance that I can live with.
>
> Thanks for the advice, I will be fixing the gutters.
>
> Unfortunately, there is nothing I can do about the ground slope. The
> house's foundation was raised such that ground level is about 2 feet
> above street level. With an additional elevation of 5 steps (nearly 2
> feet) to the front door. Some time in the future, I will talk with a
> landscaping friend regrading the front lawn per your advice.
> Unfortunately, the backyard has a full length patio, i.e. flat
> concrete. Nothing I can do about that.
>
> BTW, based on prior discussion, I will not be doing any work on the
> sump pit or lowering the drain tile. However, is there a way to upgrade
> the efficiency of the existing drain tile without tearing up the
> foundation? If yes, then this will be a future project, after the
> grading of the front lawn.
>
Yes your drain tile is impressivly low. I wonder how you know the
height of your drain tiles though?
You seem to have indicated that your sump pump only pumps water down to
a certain level. mine pumps the pit till its near empty. If your pump
is not pumping the pit to near empty it may need its float adjusted or a
new float or a float cleaning. Or you could need your exhaust pipes
snaked/cleaned. Make sure the check valve is good too. How much does
your pump run. Are the pipes that enter your pit always full of water?
Also if your pit ocassionally floods, you could need a stronger pump
that can pump more volume. But don't get buck wild as I think the
stronger pumps are more noisy too.
If you dont have a backup pump could be a good time to install one.
Like a water powered one. it will work if your power fails, but it will
also kick in when the existing pump cant handle the load.
> Thank you for your advice, your help was greatly appreciated.
>
> Sincerely - Burnt
>
--
Respectfully,
CL Gilbert
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| Doug Boulter 2005-07-24, 9:08 pm |
| "Burnt" <bspitnews@yahoo.com> wrote on 20 Jul 2005:
> However, is there a way to upgrade
> the efficiency of the existing drain tile without tearing up the
> foundation?
Yes, several things.
1) Depending on what the drain tile is made of, you can have it
roto-rootered. Even better if they have a camera they can send in
for a look-see.
2) Today it's common practice to wrap the drain tile in a geo-
textile fabric to prevent the fines in the water from getting into
the drain tile and clogging it. Digging up exterior drain tile is
expensive, but won't disturb the foundation. If it's under the
basement floor, then it's probably too expensive for the gain.
Cheaper to install exterior drain tile.
> Unfortunately, the backyard has a full length patio, i.e. flat
> concrete. Nothing I can do about that.
Well, you could either put another 3" of concrete on top of the
existing with a gentle slope away from the house, or you could
build raised flower beds, benches, etc. along the house wall to
keep the water from flowing into the crack between the patio and
the house.
Of course, sealing that crack is cheaper, but the seal should be
checked at least once a year.
--
Doug Boulter
To reply by e-mail, remove the obvious word from the e-mail address
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| Hi Gilbert,
I can literally see the pipes, they are exposed. The measurement is a
rough visual guess. The sump is a plunger style and it sits on a
cylinder block, but yes it pumps until the pit is nearly empty. Sorry
for the confusion.
When the pump is under heavy use, it literally knocks itself over from
all the shaking from the cycling. Once the rubber connecting hose (pump
to pvc exhaust pipe) popped off from heavy usuage.
No the drain tiles flow water at a rate of about 1 cup every 10 seconds
under heavy rain. Again this is a rough guess, using frig's water
dispensor as comparison.
I'll look up the water powered pump and see what I can find. Can you
supply a link?
Thanks for all the help, all this information is greatly appreciated.
Sincerely, Burnt
| |
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| Hi Doug,
I was afraid you were going to say that. Oh well, this is life. I'll
have to do a 2 year study after fixing the gutters to justify
expenditure for the exterior drain tiles.
I'll have to add the 3 inches of concrete and raised flower beds, as
the patio is touching the house for about 20 feet the remaining length
are 2 flower bed areas. The flower beds are tough as the AC heat
exchanger is blocking one of the beds.
Thanks for your advice and information. I greatly appreciate your help.
Sincerely - Burnt
| |
| CL (dnoyeB) Gilbert 2005-07-24, 9:08 pm |
| Burnt wrote:
> Hi Gilbert,
>
> I can literally see the pipes, they are exposed. The measurement is a
> rough visual guess. The sump is a plunger style and it sits on a
> cylinder block, but yes it pumps until the pit is nearly empty. Sorry
> for the confusion.
>
Ahh. You are seeing the pipes that come into the sump pit? Or your
basement is dirt and not cement? The drain tiles should be outside the
house around the perimeter of the foundation. You may see the pipes
that drain the drain tiles, but I be surprised if you see the drain
tiles themselves? But I have read that sometimes they bring the tiles
into the house too.
My house uses drain tiles around the perimeter, then about 6 bleeder
'pipes' to bring the water across the basement wall, then pvc piping
under the basement floor and sloping downward to the sump pit. (actually
sloping upward, but the plumber is on his way out to fix this-warranty
claim)
> When the pump is under heavy use, it literally knocks itself over from
> all the shaking from the cycling. Once the rubber connecting hose (pump
> to pvc exhaust pipe) popped off from heavy usuage.
>
Interesting. my pump has no rubber hoses. Its straight PVC and screws
into the pump. I lift my pump out of the pit by the pvc exhaust pipe.
This is all rigid piping and there is no movement. my pump sits on the
bottom of the pit. Yes there is sand and stuff buildup. I am going to
shop vac it this weekend.
Make sure you have a check valve on that exhaust pipe and make sure its
functional.
> No the drain tiles flow water at a rate of about 1 cup every 10 seconds
> under heavy rain. Again this is a rough guess, using frig's water
> dispensor as comparison.
>
> I'll look up the water powered pump and see what I can find. Can you
> supply a link?
>
No, it was installed in my house when I moved in. Hope depot perhaps?
> Thanks for all the help, all this information is greatly appreciated.
>
> Sincerely, Burnt
>
Well I'm not actually a plumber but I have had them over my house about
8 times in the last month working on my foundation drainage system. My
sump pit fills up about every 2 minutes. Rain doesent change much.
Maybe you just need to clean the pump, adjust the float, and snake the
exhaust pipe. I had to put a new pump in.
--
Respectfully,
CL Gilbert
| |
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| Hi Gilbert,
Sorry for the late response, I had company and the PC is in the spare
room.
As for your questions and statements:
1) I have a concrete floor with a sump pit in the corner of the
basement
2) Maybe, these are feeder pipes coming from the tile drain, I can not
tell.
3) Pump works fine. However, the flow rate to the drain tiles does not
fill up my sump pit in 2 minutes. Maybe, this is the problem?
4) The connecting hose is a common item that is available in Home
Depot. Sorry, I forgot the hoses name.
Thank you very much for your time and effort, it is greatly
appreciated.
Thanks again for your response - Burnt
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