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Home > Archive > Home Repair forum > July 2005 > Old dog, having to learn new tricks. "GFCI Question"
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Old dog, having to learn new tricks. "GFCI Question"
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I have a Spa Heater that requires a 240V 30 Amp feed. There is no
place to land a neutral, but the Damn thing requires a GFCI Breaker. What
do I land in the lug for the Neutral (on the breaker). I just took the
curly-cue white wire and landed it to the neutral bus and started enjoying
the bubbles. Testing of the GFCI Breaker, I realized that the trip button
didn't cause it to trip.
Time passes and I get a call from my brother-in-law asking me (the
electrician) to hook up his spa heater. Same Problem is staring me right in
the face. His new Heater does have what would appear to be two ground lugs.
One inside the makeup box, and one outside. Is one for the neutral? I am OK
risking my on life, ( I'm just in it for the bubbles!), but my sister is a
different story. Can someone enlightin me or am I going to have to wipe the
dust off my 1981 Code Book?
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| Todd H. 2005-07-30, 1:21 am |
| <j_richard@sbcglobal.net> writes:
> Can someone enlightin me or am I going to have to wipe the
> dust off my 1981 Code Book?
I'd strongly recommend picking up an alternate book that's Yellow and
has a section entitled "electricians."
If you don't know exactly what you're doing, this is especially one
electrical project (Spa heater. Humans. Water. Electricity.) you
should be calling a pro to do.
Water, bathing humans, electricity, and hobby handymen do not mix.
Best Regards,
--
Todd H.
http://www.toddh.net/
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| sleepdog@optonline.net 2005-07-30, 1:21 am |
| >> Can someone enlightin me or am I going to have to wipe the dust off my 1981 Code Book?
Somebody please help this man before someone gets deep fried.
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|
| Hey I got an Idea. If you can't appreciate the humor, and you can't offer
any advice, than post to something you know!
There were no humans fried during this Inquire
"Todd H." <t@toddh.net> wrote in message news:84ek9hosak.fsf@ripco.com...
> <j_richard@sbcglobal.net> writes:
>
>
> I'd strongly recommend picking up an alternate book that's Yellow and
> has a section entitled "electricians."
>
> If you don't know exactly what you're doing, this is especially one
> electrical project (Spa heater. Humans. Water. Electricity.) you
> should be calling a pro to do.
>
> Water, bathing humans, electricity, and hobby handymen do not mix.
>
> Best Regards,
> --
> Todd H.
> http://www.toddh.net/
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| Ignoramus27279 2005-07-30, 2:21 am |
| On 29 Jul 2005 23:02:11 -0500, Todd H. <t@toddh.net> wrote:
> Water, bathing humans, electricity, and hobby handymen do not mix.
Why, if the person is able to follow the rules, they can do it, no?
I fixed my own hot tub and am relatively confident that it will be
fine as far as dangers to humans are concerned. I used a lot of help
from this newsgroup.
Everything that needs to be grounded is grounded, everything is on
GFCI, GFCI tests correctly, load matches breaker capacity, neutral is
isolated from ground, etc.
The key question, obviously, is whether the person in question
understand what needs to be done, and second, are they actually double
checking what they do.
i
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| Thank you IG. This thing is Meticulously grounded. I even drove a ground
rod specifically for the spa., and bonded it to both the disconnect and main
panel. All other circuits are GFCI protected. I thought about Pigtailing
the Neutral load from the other loads and running it to the neutral lug on
the heater GFCI breaker but I just wanted to hear from the experts here. I
have also received allot of help here. Many thanks to the knowledgeable
ones.
"Ignoramus27279" <ignoramus27279@NOSPAM.27279.invalid> wrote in message
news:9eDGe.11168$055.7412@fe08.usenetserver.com...
> On 29 Jul 2005 23:02:11 -0500, Todd H. <t@toddh.net> wrote:
>
> Why, if the person is able to follow the rules, they can do it, no?
>
> I fixed my own hot tub and am relatively confident that it will be
> fine as far as dangers to humans are concerned. I used a lot of help
> from this newsgroup.
>
> Everything that needs to be grounded is grounded, everything is on
> GFCI, GFCI tests correctly, load matches breaker capacity, neutral is
> isolated from ground, etc.
>
> The key question, obviously, is whether the person in question
> understand what needs to be done, and second, are they actually double
> checking what they do.
>
> i
>
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| Todd H. 2005-07-30, 3:21 am |
| <j_richard@sbcglobal.net> writes:
> Hey I got an Idea. If you can't appreciate the humor, and you can't offer
> any advice, than post to something you know!
I dunno there... I know enough about electricity, liability, and human
nature enough to identify people who know just enough to be _really_
dangerous. If your posting doesn't raise a red flag, I dunno what
would.
> There were no humans fried during this Inquire
Yet.
:-)
--
Todd H.
http://www.toddh.net/
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| Todd H. 2005-07-30, 3:21 am |
| Ignoramus27279 <ignoramus27279@NOSPAM.27279.invalid> writes:
> On 29 Jul 2005 23:02:11 -0500, Todd H. <t@toddh.net> wrote:
>
> Why, if the person is able to follow the rules, they can do it, no?
The person in question seems surprised/annoyed that a device that
heats water that people soak in would have a GFCI. As such, their
ability to know (much less follow) rules becomes rather suspect.
> The key question, obviously, is whether the person in question
> understand what needs to be done, and second, are they actually double
> checking what they do.
Agreed!
--
Todd H.
http://www.toddh.net/
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| And not to mention, the person in question seems to be intent on
hooking _some_ white wire up to the neutral of the GFCI, without
seeming to really care about _which_ particular white wire gets used.
Just pigtail some other neutral? The guy seems to be dangerously
careless, and further, doesn't seem to realize that he doesn't know a
thing about GFCIs, how they work, why they are needed, or how to
install one.
Now, the thread would be different if he just said "Gee, I don't think
I understand the GFCI wiring for a 230V device with no neutral. Can
someone explain?"
[ Course, then we could have just said "if you don't know enough to
simply read the instructions in the GFCI box, you probably should call
someone who does" ]
-Kevin
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| You only mention heaters, what about pumps and blowers and control circuits.
Usually a hot tub requires a four wire circuit GFCI protected. You would
have a ground lug inside the control panel and a bonding lug on the outside.
Neutrals only go on neutral bars never on ground lugs and you don't drive
ground rods to ground the tub or equipment. Without having enough
information about your equipment, my best guess is that your GFCI breaker is
defective
<j_richard@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:1aBGe.2176$oY.2026@newssvr25.news.prodigy.net...
>
> I have a Spa Heater that requires a 240V 30 Amp feed. There is no
> place to land a neutral, but the Damn thing requires a GFCI Breaker. What
> do I land in the lug for the Neutral (on the breaker). I just took the
> curly-cue white wire and landed it to the neutral bus and started enjoying
> the bubbles. Testing of the GFCI Breaker, I realized that the trip button
> didn't cause it to trip.
>
> Time passes and I get a call from my brother-in-law asking me (the
> electrician) to hook up his spa heater. Same Problem is staring me right
> in the face. His new Heater does have what would appear to be two ground
> lugs. One inside the makeup box, and one outside. Is one for the neutral?
> I am OK risking my on life, ( I'm just in it for the bubbles!), but my
> sister is a different story. Can someone enlightin me or am I going to
> have to wipe the dust off my 1981 Code Book?
>
| |
| Ignoramus27279 2005-07-30, 10:21 am |
| On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 04:27:45 GMT, <j_richard@sbcglobal.net> <j_richard@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> Thank you IG. This thing is Meticulously grounded. I even drove a ground
> rod specifically for the spa.,
that's wrong and may mess with your GFCI. the only grounding point in
a regular home is the ground/neutral bar of your panel.
> and bonded it to both the disconnect and main
> panel. All other circuits are GFCI protected. I thought about Pigtailing
> the Neutral load from the other loads and running it to the neutral lug on
> the heater GFCI breaker but I just wanted to hear from the experts here. I
> have also received allot of help here. Many thanks to the knowledgeable
> ones.
I would suggest to post a complete description of what you have done
here, with pictures. You may get some helpful corrections. As it
stands, it is not quite proper.
i
> "Ignoramus27279" <ignoramus27279@NOSPAM.27279.invalid> wrote in message
> news:9eDGe.11168$055.7412@fe08.usenetserver.com...
>
>
--
| |
| Ignoramus27279 2005-07-30, 10:21 am |
| On 29 Jul 2005 23:21:53 -0700, kevin <spamwalsh@gmail.com> wrote:
> And not to mention, the person in question seems to be intent on
> hooking _some_ white wire up to the neutral of the GFCI, without
> seeming to really care about _which_ particular white wire gets used.
> Just pigtail some other neutral? The guy seems to be dangerously
> careless, and further, doesn't seem to realize that he doesn't know a
> thing about GFCIs, how they work, why they are needed, or how to
> install one.
Does a 220V GFCI have a neutral? I have never seen a 220V GFCI, but I
wonder just why it wouldneed a neutral.
> Now, the thread would be different if he just said "Gee, I don't think
> I understand the GFCI wiring for a 230V device with no neutral. Can
> someone explain?"
You have a good point.
i
> [ Course, then we could have just said "if you don't know enough to
> simply read the instructions in the GFCI box, you probably should call
> someone who does" ]
>
> -Kevin
>
--
| |
| sleepdog@optonline.net 2005-07-30, 11:21 am |
| >> Hey I got an Idea. If you can't appreciate the humor, and you can't offer[color=darkred]
I know you need some sound advice!!!
And to talk about not appreciating humor... pot kettle black.
[color=darkred]
And what of your hot tub experiment? I like my friends and neighbors
crispy.
| |
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| j_richard@sbcglobal.net wrote:
> I have a Spa Heater that requires a 240V 30 Amp feed. There is no
> place to land a neutral, but the Damn thing requires a GFCI Breaker. What
> do I land in the lug for the Neutral (on the breaker). I just took the
> curly-cue white wire and landed it to the neutral bus and started enjoying
> the bubbles. Testing of the GFCI Breaker, I realized that the trip button
> didn't cause it to trip.
>
The curly-cue white wire from the GFCI breaker does go to the panel
neutral bar. The test button uses a test current which may require this
neutral bar connection. If the curly-cue wire is connected and the test
button doesn't work the breaker is likely defective.
If the load is 240V with no neutral there will be no connecton to the
breaker load-side neutral.
> Time passes and I get a call from my brother-in-law asking me (the
> electrician) to hook up his spa heater. Same Problem is staring me right in
> the face. His new Heater does have what would appear to be two ground lugs.
> One inside the makeup box, and one outside. Is one for the neutral? I am OK
> risking my on life, ( I'm just in it for the bubbles!), but my sister is a
> different story. Can someone enlightin me or am I going to have to wipe the
> dust off my 1981 Code Book?
>
Neutral is never connected to ground except in service panel (actually
there are some odd exceptions). The ground lug in the box is for a
ground wire run with the supply conductors. The lug outside the box is
probally for bonding the metal parts in the tub.
Your 1981 code book actually won't help you.
Bud--
| |
|
| BAM! Now thats an answer!
Thanks
"Bud" <remove.BudNews@isp.com> wrote in message
news:a5775$42eba40f$4304c260$18459@DIALUPUSA.NET...
> j_richard@sbcglobal.net wrote:
>
>
> The curly-cue white wire from the GFCI breaker does go to the panel
> neutral bar. The test button uses a test current which may require this
> neutral bar connection. If the curly-cue wire is connected and the test
> button doesn't work the breaker is likely defective.
>
> If the load is 240V with no neutral there will be no connecton to the
> breaker load-side neutral.
>
>
>
> Neutral is never connected to ground except in service panel (actually
> there are some odd exceptions). The ground lug in the box is for a ground
> wire run with the supply conductors. The lug outside the box is probally
> for bonding the metal parts in the tub.
>
> Your 1981 code book actually won't help you.
>
> Bud--
>
>
>
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