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Home > Archive > Home Repair forum > January 2006 > Water Stop Valve Next to House - Needed?
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| Author |
Water Stop Valve Next to House - Needed?
|
|
|
| After receiving a rather high utility bill, I noticed that the city was
charging me for 11,000 gallons of water usage; just a little high for
two people. So after a long inspection, I discovered that there is a
leaking stop valve on the underground water main about 8" from the
house's foundation. The following picture shows exactly where this leak is:
http://www.dafunks.com/misc/ShutOffValve_Leak.jpg
So I went to Home Depot & Lowe's for a valve kit replacement and they
only carried the entire valve. The current valve is soldered on to
copper pipe.
The reason for my post: Is there even a need for this valve? Or would
it be better just to remove the valve and replace it with a straight
piece of copper?
| |
|
| Andy suggests:
Before you replace it, I suggest you get a wrench and turn the
big nut closest to the valve body a little to see if tightening it
will stop the leaking.
Usually these things leak from the stem, which is higher up
on the diagram than your illustration, and tightening there will
often stop it if the internal packing is in good shape.
These valves can be disassembled in place and repaired.
Remember to turn off the water at the meter first if you do this and
turn on an outside spigot to release the pressure in the line.....
Replacing it, in place, can be a messy job. You can do it,
but it will take you 10 times as long as you think it should, and
you will probably have to make extra trips to Home Depot for
stuff you might find you need, halfway thru the job.
Try tightening it before going to all that trouble.
And, yes, you need a shutoff valve, since often the city valve
is kept in a locked compartment at the meter. You can buy a key,
or make a key, but sometimes the city gets very anally retentive if
you mess with their stuff. Some of our local cities have fines for
tampering, even if you are doing the "right" thing. A customer
controlled shutoff valve is very good, especially when you are changing
faucet washers on spigots or putting in a new hot water heater.....
Andy
| |
|
| Is the valve buried underground?
"O.B." <funkjunk@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:FKSCf.13085$dF5.6025@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
> After receiving a rather high utility bill, I noticed that the city was
> charging me for 11,000 gallons of water usage; just a little high for
> two people. So after a long inspection, I discovered that there is a
> leaking stop valve on the underground water main about 8" from the
> house's foundation. The following picture shows exactly where this leak
is:
>
> http://www.dafunks.com/misc/ShutOffValve_Leak.jpg
>
> So I went to Home Depot & Lowe's for a valve kit replacement and they
> only carried the entire valve. The current valve is soldered on to
> copper pipe.
>
> The reason for my post: Is there even a need for this valve? Or would
> it be better just to remove the valve and replace it with a straight
> piece of copper?
| |
| Frank K. 2006-01-28, 9:21 pm |
| He said it was on the "underground water main"
"Bob" <bobb25@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:ZoWdnRAJ-LgOY0benZ2dnUVZ_sKdnZ2d@comcast.com...
> Is the valve buried underground?
>
> "O.B." <funkjunk@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> news:FKSCf.13085$dF5.6025@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
> is:
>
>
| |
|
| Yes, the valve is buried 18" underground (we live in Alabama). There is
another main cutoff valve next to the meter near the street.
Bob wrote:
> Is the valve buried underground?
>
> "O.B." <funkjunk@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> news:FKSCf.13085$dF5.6025@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
>
>
> is:
>
>
>
>
| |
|
| Andy wrote:
> Andy suggests:
> Before you replace it, I suggest you get a wrench and turn the
> big nut closest to the valve body a little to see if tightening it
> will stop the leaking.
>
> Usually these things leak from the stem, which is higher up
> on the diagram than your illustration, and tightening there will
> often stop it if the internal packing is in good shape.
> These valves can be disassembled in place and repaired.
> Remember to turn off the water at the meter first if you do this and
> turn on an outside spigot to release the pressure in the line.....
>
> Replacing it, in place, can be a messy job. You can do it,
> but it will take you 10 times as long as you think it should, and
> you will probably have to make extra trips to Home Depot for
> stuff you might find you need, halfway thru the job.
>
> Try tightening it before going to all that trouble.
>
> And, yes, you need a shutoff valve, since often the city valve
> is kept in a locked compartment at the meter. You can buy a key,
> or make a key, but sometimes the city gets very anally retentive if
> you mess with their stuff. Some of our local cities have fines for
> tampering, even if you are doing the "right" thing. A customer
> controlled shutoff valve is very good, especially when you are changing
> faucet washers on spigots or putting in a new hot water heater.....
>
> Andy
>
I tried tightening it and there was no luck. I unscrewed it and wrapped
it about 6 times with Teflon tape. That slowed the leak down from 1/2
gallon per minute to one drip every other second. I'd still prefer no
leak at all.
The compartment that contains the meter/valve at the street is not
locked in any way. I've been using the valve to shut off water for
various plumbing repairs for about 5 years now. I was a bit surprised
to uncover this 2nd valve underground.
As for replacing the unnecessary additional valve, I think I've narrowed
down all the tools I need:
- Hacksaw
- Medium-grit sandpaper
- Wire brush to clean inside pipe
- 3/4" Copper Pipe
- Solder
- Torch
- 2 3/4" copper fittings
- Flux
- Patience
(Thank goodness the weather has been in the 60's recently.)
| |
|
| In my area, there is a shut off at the curb, and no shut off until after the
water line goes into the basement.
"O.B." <funkjunk@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:FiUCf.5640$eY5.889@bignews7.bellsouth.net...[color=darkred]
> Yes, the valve is buried 18" underground (we live in Alabama). There is
> another main cutoff valve next to the meter near the street.
>
>
>
> Bob wrote:
| |
|
| Now that makes sense; especially if you want to diagnose if a water leak
is in the house or underground. I'll go on and remove this extra valve
for now. In the future, I'll look into adding a stop valve in the
crawlspace.
Bob wrote:
> In my area, there is a shut off at the curb, and no shut off until after the
> water line goes into the basement.
>
> "O.B." <funkjunk@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> news:FiUCf.5640$eY5.889@bignews7.bellsouth.net...
>
>
>
| |
|
| Teflon tape is not designed for that. Before you replace the whole valve,
try some valve stem packing.
http://www.jameswalker.biz/group/ca...m_packings.html
http://www.gore.com/en_xx/products/...em_packing.html
"O.B." <funkjunk@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:QqUCf.5665$eY5.5238@bignews7.bellsouth.net...
> Andy wrote:
>
> I tried tightening it and there was no luck. I unscrewed it and wrapped
> it about 6 times with Teflon tape. That slowed the leak down from 1/2
> gallon per minute to one drip every other second. I'd still prefer no
> leak at all.
>
> The compartment that contains the meter/valve at the street is not
> locked in any way. I've been using the valve to shut off water for
> various plumbing repairs for about 5 years now. I was a bit surprised
> to uncover this 2nd valve underground.
>
> As for replacing the unnecessary additional valve, I think I've narrowed
> down all the tools I need:
> - Hacksaw
> - Medium-grit sandpaper
> - Wire brush to clean inside pipe
> - 3/4" Copper Pipe
> - Solder
> - Torch
> - 2 3/4" copper fittings
> - Flux
> - Patience
>
> (Thank goodness the weather has been in the 60's recently.)
| |
|
| Do not remove any existing valve without installing a new shut off
somewhere. The shut off should be easily accessible to anyone in an
emergency. If you have a high crawl space, that might be ok, but you should
check your code first. There was a reason it was outside.
"O.B." <funkjunk@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:zHUCf.5712$eY5.4480@bignews7.bellsouth.net...[color=darkred]
> Now that makes sense; especially if you want to diagnose if a water leak
> is in the house or underground. I'll go on and remove this extra valve
> for now. In the future, I'll look into adding a stop valve in the
> crawlspace.
>
>
> Bob wrote:
the[color=darkred]
was[color=darkred]
leak[color=darkred]
would[color=darkred]
| |
|
| I would put a box around it something like they sell for irrigation valves
so that it is not buried, and is available for use.
"Bob" <bobb25@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:CsGdncU45sCRhkHeRVn-gg@comcast.com...
> Do not remove any existing valve without installing a new shut off
> somewhere. The shut off should be easily accessible to anyone in an
> emergency. If you have a high crawl space, that might be ok, but you
should
> check your code first. There was a reason it was outside.
>
> "O.B." <funkjunk@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> news:zHUCf.5712$eY5.4480@bignews7.bellsouth.net...
after[color=darkred]
> the
is[color=darkred]
> was
for[color=darkred]
a[color=darkred]
> leak
they[color=darkred]
> would
>
>
| |
| cornytheclown@hotmail.com 2006-01-28, 11:21 pm |
| 18 inches underground is not really that easy to access
| |
|
| Good point. Maybe I'll leave it 18" underground where it is easily
accessible. ;)
Seriously, anyone can use the stop valve at the street; that's why it's
there.
Bob wrote:
> Do not remove any existing valve without installing a new shut off
> somewhere. The shut off should be easily accessible to anyone in an
> emergency. If you have a high crawl space, that might be ok, but you should
> check your code first. There was a reason it was outside.
>
> "O.B." <funkjunk@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> news:zHUCf.5712$eY5.4480@bignews7.bellsouth.net...
>
>
> the
>
>
> was
>
>
> leak
>
>
> would
>
>
>
| |
|
| On Sat, 28 Jan 2006 22:10:55 -0600, "O.B." <funkjunk@bellsouth.net>
wrote:
>Good point. Maybe I'll leave it 18" underground where it is easily
>accessible. ;)
>
>Seriously, anyone can use the stop valve at the street; that's why it's
>there.
That's not why it's there. It's there for the water company to use.
Someday, perhaps tomorrow, someone in town or in this sector will do
something stupid and the water company will order all the valve boxes
checked and any that are unlocked, locked. Maybe with a bolt with a
5-sided head.
Buy the valve they wanted to sell you. Disassemble it and take
everything but the actual valve body. Compare those parts with the
ones you took out of the one in the yard. The odds are at least 50%
(Is that right guys?) that they will be the same, Mostly that the
threads will be the same (diameter, threads per inch, and a length
that will work with the current body). If not, measure everything and
draw a sketch, and take it to a professional plumbing supply company
and buy one that does match. (Even switching from HD to Lowes or Ace
hardware or what else there is may enable you to match it. In fact,
if they sell two models, or different models/brands at differnet
stores, buy 'em all and return the ones you don't use. No one will
criticize you in this situation, for doing that.)
Then reassemble the thing and it won't leak at all.
I don't know how hard it would be to solder a pipe in place of the
valve but a) it is wet in there.
b) you can't see the bottom of it. Maybe with a
mirror, but it will take 10 times as much time as expected.
c) most people complain when they don't have enough
valves, not the other way around.
d) The list of tools and materials you gave in the
other post is inadequate. How are you going to get the second copper
fitting on the splice pipe and the original pipe? I spent close to
an hour on this when I tried to replace my water heater in place, and
I never did succeed iirc in getting the connector fitting on what I
had thought would be the easy way. Lucky for me there was some flex
in the original pipe. If you don't know what I'm talking about,
you're not ready. Ask more questions.
If you do know what I'm talking about, how did you plan to do it?
Remove NOPSAM to email me. Please let
me know if you have posted also.
| |
|
| Inlined.
>
> That's not why it's there. It's there for the water company to use.
> Someday, perhaps tomorrow, someone in town or in this sector will do
> something stupid and the water company will order all the valve boxes
> checked and any that are unlocked, locked. Maybe with a bolt with a
> 5-sided head.
I've lived in this city for 31 years and they have yet to do something
like you mention. I sincerely doubt they ever will; too many houses
were built with the assumption that homeowners could turn off the water
at the street.
> Buy the valve they wanted to sell you. Disassemble it and take
> everything but the actual valve body. Compare those parts with the
> ones you took out of the one in the yard. The odds are at least 50%
> (Is that right guys?) that they will be the same.
Tried that already; 4 different brands. The assemblies were quite
different.
> I don't know how hard it would be to solder a pipe in place of the
> valve but a) it is wet in there.
I have already dug a semicircular 3 foot diameter pit that is at least
2.5 feet deep. I've got a lot of room to work. The area dries out
pretty quick when the water is cut off.
> b) you can't see the bottom of it. Maybe with a
> mirror, but it will take 10 times as much time as expected.
Yup, was planning to use a small mirror.
> c) most people complain when they don't have enough
> valves, not the other way around.
I'd rather relocate the valve to an accessible area. I've been told
countless times that these valves should not be buried. Case in point.
> d) The list of tools and materials you gave in the
> other post is inadequate. How are you going to get the second copper
> fitting on the splice pipe and the original pipe?
There is about 1" of give in all directions (side to side, up and down,
in and out) in the section going into the house.
These are good points. Am I missing anything?
| |
|
| On Sat, 28 Jan 2006 23:42:21 -0600, "O.B." <funkjunk@bellsouth.net>
wrote:
>
>
>There is about 1" of give in all directions (side to side, up and down,
>in and out) in the section going into the house.
If you have a whole inch of leeway, longitudinally, parallel to the
pipes, I'm a bit surprised. I would expect the pipes to be pretty
firmly attached to the house and to the meter.
But anyhow, my point was that I thought with the copper connector
pipes, the coupling, for the copper pipe I was using for my water
heater, I would be able to slide the couling all the way on one pipe,
put the other part to be spliced back over the coupling, and move half
the length of the coupling back over that pipe;
It turns out there is a dimple inside the coupling, at the midpoint,
--- Maybe there are couplers without that dimple??????????????? ----
and the coupling won't go more than half its length on to either
pipe. If I made the empty space between the two pipes bigger, half
the length of the coupling, I could put the pipe in place, but then I
would only have a quarter of the coupling overlapping the pipe. If
the solder joint I made was good, that would be enough, but I didn't
want to waste the other 1/2 inch. So I tried to file the dimple away,
I tired to grind it away, with little grind stones and an electric
drill (maybe a Dremel would have worked better in this case, but I
didn't have one.) but it was hard to aim right and after what I think
was an hour, I still couldn't get it on. The top of the water heater
woudn't go lower, the pipe wouldn't go higher. I don't remember how I
got it on. (two of them, hot and cold.)
>
>These are good points. Am I missing anything?
Remove NOPSAM to email me. Please let
me know if you have posted also.
| |
| Mark Lloyd 2006-01-29, 4:21 pm |
| On Sat, 28 Jan 2006 20:56:50 -0500, "EXT" <etonks@sunstormADD-DOT-COM>
wrote:
>I would put a box around it something like they sell for irrigation valves
>so that it is not buried, and is available for use.
>
At the place I used to live, there was such a valve, a little in from
the meter. It was not in a box. I didn't even know about this valve
until it started leaking. The valve was then replaced and put in a
box.
Here, I know about the valve. It's one of those where the handle looks
like a bent iron rod. It appears to have gotten stuck 20 years ago and
never been usable since.
>"Bob" <bobb25@comcast.net> wrote in message
>news:CsGdncU45sCRhkHeRVn-gg@comcast.com...
>should
>after
>is
>for
>a
>they
>
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin
| |
| Harry K 2006-01-29, 6:21 pm |
|
Mark Lloyd wrote:
> On Sat, 28 Jan 2006 20:56:50 -0500, "EXT" <etonks@sunstormADD-DOT-COM>
> wrote:
>
>
> At the place I used to live, there was such a valve, a little in from
> the meter. It was not in a box. I didn't even know about this valve
> until it started leaking. The valve was then replaced and put in a
> box.
>
> Here, I know about the valve. It's one of those where the handle looks
> like a bent iron rod. It appears to have gotten stuck 20 years ago and
> never been usable since.
>
Those are "stop and waste" valves. 1/4 turn or 1/2 turn shuts it off
and opens a hole that drains every thing down stream. I needed a
"stop" valve (no waste) to connect a secondary well. Couldn't find one
so had to use a gate valve in its place as I was able to shade tree
mechanic an actuating rod to the valve handle. Couldn't figure a way
to do it wiht a normal 1/4 turn valve.
Harry K
| |
| Harry K 2006-01-29, 7:21 pm |
|
mm wrote:
> On Sat, 28 Jan 2006 23:42:21 -0600, "O.B." <funkjunk@bellsouth.net>
> wrote:
>
>
> If you have a whole inch of leeway, longitudinally, parallel to the
> pipes, I'm a bit surprised. I would expect the pipes to be pretty
> firmly attached to the house and to the meter.
>
> But anyhow, my point was that I thought with the copper connector
> pipes, the coupling, for the copper pipe I was using for my water
> heater, I would be able to slide the couling all the way on one pipe,
> put the other part to be spliced back over the coupling, and move half
> the length of the coupling back over that pipe;
>
> It turns out there is a dimple inside the coupling, at the midpoint,
>
> --- Maybe there are couplers without that dimple??????????????? ----
>
> and the coupling won't go more than half its length on to either
> pipe. If I made the empty space between the two pipes bigger, half
> the length of the coupling, I could put the pipe in place, but then I
> would only have a quarter of the coupling overlapping the pipe. If
> the solder joint I made was good, that would be enough, but I didn't
> want to waste the other 1/2 inch. So I tried to file the dimple away,
> I tired to grind it away, with little grind stones and an electric
> drill (maybe a Dremel would have worked better in this case, but I
> didn't have one.) but it was hard to aim right and after what I think
> was an hour, I still couldn't get it on. The top of the water heater
> woudn't go lower, the pipe wouldn't go higher. I don't remember how I
> got it on. (two of them, hot and cold.)
>
>
>
>
> Remove NOPSAM to email me. Please let
> me know if you have posted also.
You might look for a "Dresser" coupling. It is a larger section of
pipe threaded both ends with compression fittings. Can be slid totally
onto one of the pipes and then back over the other one then tightened
in place. Of course you are then adding more pipe to be cut out to
clear that coupling plus the stub end of copper that will have to be
soldered to the valve.
Your desire to put it in a better location is the right way to go but I
don't think a crawl space would qualify. There surely must be
someplace accessible in the basement (if you have one) or in theliving
area where the in pipe surfaces in a spot that can be reached before it
branches or reaches an appliance.
Harry K
| |
|
| mm wrote:
> It turns out there is a dimple inside the coupling, at the midpoint,
>
> --- Maybe there are couplers without that dimple??????????????? ----
Yes, there are. Checked Lowe's just a few minutes ago and they had 3/4"
couplers with or without a "stop". $0.77 a piece.
I'm gonna check out the local plumber store in the morning before I
proceed. If I can get a 5/8" plug from them, I'll just solder that
piece where the valve resides and be done with it.
| |
|
| On Sun, 29 Jan 2006 13:20:13 -0600, Mark Lloyd <mlloyd@xmail.com10>
wrote:
>On Sat, 28 Jan 2006 20:56:50 -0500, "EXT" <etonks@sunstormADD-DOT-COM>
>wrote:
>
>
>At the place I used to live, there was such a valve, a little in from
>the meter. It was not in a box. I didn't even know about this valve
>until it started leaking. The valve was then replaced and put in a
>box.
>
>Here, I know about the valve. It's one of those where the handle looks
>like a bent iron rod. It appears to have gotten stuck 20 years ago and
>never been usable since.
I have a valve just inside my basement. There is a meter under the
sidewalk that parallels the street, with an iron lid, but apparently
we were going to have to pay for the meter reader to read all the
meters, and agreed 25 years ago just to split the bill evenly for all
109 houses, and they only read the meter that supplies the whole group
of houses. So I've never seen what is inside. Probably 2 meters and
2 valves for 2 townhouses, although that might make it pretty crowded.
>
Remove NOPSAM to email me. Please let
me know if you have posted also.
| |
|
| On Sun, 29 Jan 2006 20:08:43 -0600, "O.B." <funkjunk@bellsouth.net>
wrote:
>mm wrote:
>
>Yes, there are. Checked Lowe's just a few minutes ago and they had 3/4"
>couplers with or without a "stop". $0.77 a piece.
I wish I'd know that 10 years ago. But at least I know it for the
next time. Thanks.
That's not what you got the first time, right? If they had two bins
of couplers, I didn't realize there was any difference, but I only
remember there being one bin.
>I'm gonna check out the local plumber store in the morning before I
>proceed. If I can get a 5/8" plug from them, I'll just solder that
>piece where the valve resides and be done with it.
Plug? Why a plug? You mean where the valve stem would go...?
That sounds good.
Remove NOPSAM to email me. Please let
me know if you have posted also.
| |
| George 2006-01-30, 2:21 pm |
| Since you have already dug out the valve, why not:
1. Replace the valve with a new one.
2. Stack cinder blocks over it till level with the ground to create
another access point.
O.B. wrote:[color=darkred]
> Now that makes sense; especially if you want to diagnose if a water leak
> is in the house or underground. I'll go on and remove this extra valve
> for now. In the future, I'll look into adding a stop valve in the
> crawlspace.
>
>
> Bob wrote:
>
| |
|
| Harry K wrote:
> You might look for a "Dresser" coupling. It is a larger section of
> pipe threaded both ends with compression fittings. Can be slid totally
> onto one of the pipes and then back over the other one then tightened
> in place. Of course you are then adding more pipe to be cut out to
> clear that coupling plus the stub end of copper that will have to be
> soldered to the valve.
I went to the local plumbing supply store today. They had what you
mentioned for $7 (long one) and $4 (short one). The long one was too
close and it was recommended that I get 2 short ones and splice in a
piece of 3/4" pipe. He said that it would only work as long as the pipe
remained buried.
The plumber also said that soldering a coupler would the best long-term
fix. So I bought a 12" coupler for $5. I'll cut it to fit and go from
there. As long as I stay under the $90 house-call fee, I'll feel
comfortable going this route.
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