Home Repair forum - Ground current through water main/meter

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Ground current through water main/meter

Proctologically Violated©®

2006-10-30, 1:25 pm

Awl--

How much is acceptable?
An amp-probe reveals between 2 and 6 amps, depending on how balanced the
load is on each leg of the main panel.
I'm hearing that the neutral from the panel is connected to a *steel* cable
outside, while the hots are indeed connected to copper conductors. This
would explain some current going through ground.

If the water main connection is broken, no noticeable effect in the
house--or so it seems.

Mebbe I'll amp-probe some of my neighbors plumbing.

Pete C.

2006-10-30, 1:25 pm

"Proctologically Violated©®" wrote:
>
> Awl--
>
> How much is acceptable?
> An amp-probe reveals between 2 and 6 amps, depending on how balanced the
> load is on each leg of the main panel.
> I'm hearing that the neutral from the panel is connected to a *steel* cable
> outside, while the hots are indeed connected to copper conductors. This
> would explain some current going through ground.
>
> If the water main connection is broken, no noticeable effect in the
> house--or so it seems.
>
> Mebbe I'll amp-probe some of my neighbors plumbing.

> --
> Mr. P.V.'d (formerly Droll Troll), Yonkers, NY
> Stop Corruption in Congress & Send the Ultimate Message:
> Absolutely Vote, for *Anyone BUT* a Democrat or a Republican
> Ending Corruption in Congress is the Single Best Way
> to Materially Improve Your Life
> entropic3.14decay at optonline2.718 dot net; remove pi and e to reply--ie,
> all d'numbuhs

Bonding straps are generally required across the water meter to prevent
potential for electrocution of the water guy if he removes the meter
while there is an electrical fault.

As for what current is acceptable, in my book it's essentially zero, or
at least very low milliamps. I'd carefully check all your neutral
connections in your panel and meter socket and anywhere else accessible.
Also check for current to your ground rod since you shouldn't be relying
on just a water line for a ground.

Pete C.

George

2006-10-30, 1:25 pm

Proctologically Violated©® wrote:
> Awl--
>
> How much is acceptable?

Nothing you can measure with an ampprobe.

> An amp-probe reveals between 2 and 6 amps, depending on how balanced the
> load is on each leg of the main panel.
> I'm hearing that the neutral from the panel is connected to a *steel* cable
> outside, while the hots are indeed connected to copper conductors. This
> would explain some current going through ground.
>

Actually its pretty unlikely a steel cable would have been used. Are you
sure it isn't bare *aluminum*?

> If the water main connection is broken, no noticeable effect in the
> house--or so it seems.
>
> Mebbe I'll amp-probe some of my neighbors plumbing.

Doug Miller

2006-10-30, 1:25 pm

In article <ZCp1h.12$0j7.6@newsfe08.lga>, "Proctologically Violated©®" <entropic3.14decay@optonline2.718.net> wrote:
>Awl--
>
>How much is acceptable?

None.

There's supposed to be a bonding jumper around it.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Joseph Meehan

2006-10-30, 1:25 pm

You have a problem there. You should have nothing moving through there.
You apparently have a problem with a open or very poor neutral, The only
flow of current should be through the neutral and the two power legs,
Current and any kind through the ground is a fault. That needs to be
addressed like yesterday,

I can't imagine anyone using steel. Aluminum maybe, but not steel

--
Joseph E. Meehan

26 + 6 = 1 It's Irish Math

"Proctologically Violated©®" <entropic3.14decay@optonline2.718.net> wrote in
message news:ZCp1h.12$0j7.6@newsfe08.lga...
> Awl--
>
> How much is acceptable?
> An amp-probe reveals between 2 and 6 amps, depending on how balanced the
> load is on each leg of the main panel.
> I'm hearing that the neutral from the panel is connected to a *steel*
> cable outside, while the hots are indeed connected to copper conductors.
> This would explain some current going through ground.
>
> If the water main connection is broken, no noticeable effect in the
> house--or so it seems.
>
> Mebbe I'll amp-probe some of my neighbors plumbing.

Jeff Wisnia

2006-10-30, 1:25 pm

Proctologically Violated©® wrote:

> Awl--
>
> How much is acceptable?
> An amp-probe reveals between 2 and 6 amps, depending on how balanced the
> load is on each leg of the main panel.

How did you use that amp-probe? Was it a clamp-on type placed around the
pipe or around the ground conductor attached to the pipe?

I think I understand your query, you are asking about copper and perhaps
wondering about relative resistances of the two different metals.

Despite what others here said about there requiring NO current in the
ground lead connected to the water pipe.....

If there's a significant imbalance in the loading of the 240 volt
supply, there will be a hefty current in the neutral supply feed from
the street and the drop that current creates in that feed will try and
raise the potential of of the neutral and ground busses in your service
panel higher than earth ground (likely by only a couple of volts). That
potential could create a current flow in the grounding lead connected to
the water pipe in your home.

The situation gets more complicated to analyze when you have neighbors
connected to the same line transformer's secondary. Then, their neutral
feeds and their earth grounds can get involved in the whole current
sharing network.

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia
(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
The speed of light is 1.8*10^12 furlongs per fortnight.

Speedy Jim

2006-10-30, 1:25 pm

Proctologically Violated©® wrote:

> Awl--
>
> How much is acceptable?
> An amp-probe reveals between 2 and 6 amps, depending on how balanced the
> load is on each leg of the main panel.
> I'm hearing that the neutral from the panel is connected to a *steel* cable
> outside, while the hots are indeed connected to copper conductors. This
> would explain some current going through ground.
>
> If the water main connection is broken, no noticeable effect in the
> house--or so it seems.
>
> Mebbe I'll amp-probe some of my neighbors plumbing.

> --

Time to call the utility.

An open or high-resistance neutral from pole to your
home can cause the neutral unbalance current to flow
via the copper water main piping to your neighbor's
neutral and then back to the pole (as you suspected).

In all likelihood it's the utility's responsibility,
not yours.

It's a serious issue because unexpected neutral currents
can cause overheating of any of the parts in the
"grounding" path.

Jim

Proctologically Violated©®

2006-10-30, 1:25 pm

Both. I do have a bond/jump across the water meter (don't want any dead
plumbers on my conscience!), and can just slip the amprobe over the copper
going into the street.
IOW, f'sure I'm measuring the right current, and all of it.
Yes, the load balance affects it.

A cupla electricians around here say they see this all the time, and indeed
a few plumbers got *really* jolted around town. And, the goddamm poles
around here are older than Moses.

Yeah, I know it would be *better* to have zero current going thru the cold
water supply, but if it's the nature of the beast around here, I can live
with it.
As I said, if I break this cold water pipe circuit, doesn't seem to have
noticeable effect, so mebbe it is just a matter of resistance.
Mebbe I just have a superlative cold-water connection!!

I may just check the connections at my weatherhead, and at the pole--when
the wind dies down, and the rain stops.

--
Mr. P.V.'d (formerly Droll Troll), Yonkers, NY
Stop Corruption in Congress & Send the Ultimate Message:
Absolutely Vote, for *Anyone BUT* a Democrat or a Republican
Ending Corruption in Congress is the Single Best Way
to Materially Improve Your Life
entropic3.14decay at optonline2.718 dot net; remove pi and e to reply--ie,
all d'numbuhs
"Jeff Wisnia" <jwisnia@conversent.net> wrote in message
news:gsidnWyFFv91odvYnZ2dnUVZ_uydnZ2d@conversent.net...
> Proctologically Violated©® wrote:
>
>
> How did you use that amp-probe? Was it a clamp-on type placed around the
> pipe or around the ground conductor attached to the pipe?
>
> I think I understand your query, you are asking about copper and perhaps
> wondering about relative resistances of the two different metals.
>
> Despite what others here said about there requiring NO current in the
> ground lead connected to the water pipe.....
>
> If there's a significant imbalance in the loading of the 240 volt supply,
> there will be a hefty current in the neutral supply feed from the street
> and the drop that current creates in that feed will try and raise the
> potential of of the neutral and ground busses in your service panel higher
> than earth ground (likely by only a couple of volts). That potential could
> create a current flow in the grounding lead connected to the water pipe in
> your home.
>
> The situation gets more complicated to analyze when you have neighbors
> connected to the same line transformer's secondary. Then, their neutral
> feeds and their earth grounds can get involved in the whole current
> sharing network.
>
> Jeff
>
> --
> Jeffry Wisnia
> (W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
> The speed of light is 1.8*10^12 furlongs per fortnight.
>

Mr.E@totally.invalid

2006-10-30, 1:25 pm

On Mon, 30 Oct 2006 17:32:10 GMT, "Joseph Meehan"
<sligojoeSPAM@hotmail.com> wrote:

> You have a problem there. You should have nothing moving through there.
>You apparently have a problem with a open or very poor neutral, The only
>flow of current should be through the neutral and the two power legs,
>Current and any kind through the ground is a fault. That needs to be
>addressed like yesterday,

Agreed- Fault may be located at the transformer/aerial feeder neutral
connections. The power people will need to evaluate this.
>
> I can't imagine anyone using steel. Aluminum maybe, but not steel

A very common type of aerial feeder triplex uses AL phase conductors
with ACSR (aluminum conductor- steel reinforced) used for the bare
(neutral).
--
Mr.E

HeyBub

2006-10-30, 5:25 pm

"Proctologically Violated©®" <entropic3.14decay@optonline2.718.net> wrote in
message news:kcr1h.25$0j7.16@newsfe08.lga...

> Yeah, I know it would be *better* to have zero current going thru the cold
> water supply, but if it's the nature of the beast around here, I can live
> with it.

Only until you our yours touches something they shouldn't. You've got a
defective neutral. Here's what do:

1. Call your power company.
2. Act like the third monkey on Noah's gangplank.

hallerb@aol.com

2006-10-30, 5:25 pm

>
> In all likelihood it's the utility's responsibility,
> not yours.

AFTER yopu d that try isolating the leak by tripping off breakers or
groups of breakers to see if you can effect it

gfretwell@aol.com

2006-10-30, 5:25 pm

On Mon, 30 Oct 2006 11:20:22 -0500, "Proctologically Violated©®"
<entropic3.14decay@optonline2.718.net> wrote:

>Awl--
>
>How much is acceptable?
>An amp-probe reveals between 2 and 6 amps, depending on how balanced the
>load is on each leg of the main panel.
>I'm hearing that the neutral from the panel is connected to a *steel* cable
>outside, while the hots are indeed connected to copper conductors. This
>would explain some current going through ground.
>
>If the water main connection is broken, no noticeable effect in the
>house--or so it seems.
>
>Mebbe I'll amp-probe some of my neighbors plumbing.

It should be less than the utility neutral but beyond that it is
unpredictable without knowing what is on the utility side of the water
line. If this is all metal pipe, the ground electrode system might be
as good a conductor as a perfect neutral wire. Bear in mind the
utility grounds their side of the XO terminal of the transformer too.
This makes the piping system a parallel path and there is nothing you
can do about it. Just be sure you have a good amount of current on the
neutral and that the phases have equal voltage referenced to neutral.

Jeff Wisnia

2006-10-30, 5:25 pm

gfretwell@aol.com wrote:

> On Mon, 30 Oct 2006 11:20:22 -0500, "Proctologically Violated©®"
> <entropic3.14decay@optonline2.718.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> It should be less than the utility neutral but beyond that it is
> unpredictable without knowing what is on the utility side of the water
> line. If this is all metal pipe, the ground electrode system might be
> as good a conductor as a perfect neutral wire. Bear in mind the
> utility grounds their side of the XO terminal of the transformer too.
> This makes the piping system a parallel path and there is nothing you
> can do about it. Just be sure you have a good amount of current on the
> neutral and that the phases have equal voltage referenced to neutral.
>

At last, someone who understands parallel current paths and agrees with me.

It ain't necessarily so that the the OP MUST have hot to neutral leakage
somewhere in his home's electrical system.

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia
(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
The speed of light is 1.8*10^12 furlongs per fortnight.

Jeff Wisnia

2006-10-30, 5:25 pm

Jeff Wisnia wrote:

> gfretwell@aol.com wrote:
>
>
>
> At last, someone who understands parallel current paths and agrees with me.
>
> It ain't necessarily so that the the OP MUST have hot to neutral leakage
> somewhere in his home's electrical system.

Er, that was hot to ground leakage....
>
> Jeff
>

--
Jeffry Wisnia
(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
The speed of light is 1.8*10^12 furlongs per fortnight.

m Ransley

2006-10-30, 8:25 pm

0 is normal, if its 6a 120v its only costing you at .12kwh maybe 750$ a
year, GetR fixed

John Grabowski

2006-10-30, 8:25 pm

"Proctologically Violated©®" <entropic3.14decay@optonline2.718.net> wrote in
message news:ZCp1h.12$0j7.6@newsfe08.lga...
> Awl--
>
> How much is acceptable?
> An amp-probe reveals between 2 and 6 amps, depending on how balanced the
> load is on each leg of the main panel.
> I'm hearing that the neutral from the panel is connected to a *steel*
cable
> outside, while the hots are indeed connected to copper conductors. This
> would explain some current going through ground.
>
> If the water main connection is broken, no noticeable effect in the
> house--or so it seems.
>
> Mebbe I'll amp-probe some of my neighbors plumbing.

> --

Try measuring the current with your main breaker off. If you still have a
current flow with no power going to your house, then the problem could be
somewhere outside of your domain. I have heard stories of current flow
coming from the neighbor's house going through a customer's grounding
conductor and traveling back to the transformer via the overhead neutral.

If you have no current flow with the main breaker off, you need to have all
of your neutral connections tightened from the pole down to your main panel.
If that doesn't correct the problem, it is possible that you have some
leakage to ground from somewhere in your house such as a defective
appliance. Not too long ago I had a customer with a circuit breaker that
would repeatedly trip a little while after it was reset. It turned out to
be an old defective sump pump leaking current into the water.

gfretwell@aol.com

2006-10-31, 3:25 am

On Mon, 30 Oct 2006 17:49:20 -0500, Jeff Wisnia
<jwisnia@conversent.net> wrote:

>At last, someone who understands parallel current paths and agrees with me.
>
>It ain't necessarily so that the the OP MUST have hot to neutral leakage
>somewhere in his home's electrical system.
>
>Jeff

There is an old addage that current takes the path of least resistance
but that is bogus. Current takes ALL paths. The only variable is the
amounbt of current. a 1" schedule K copper pipe has more metal in the
crosssection than your neutral conductor and that neutral conductor is
usually aluminum. If it is metal all the way back to the water plant
that is a good a parallel conductor as the service drop.
The OP is also correct that you can also see your neighbor's neutral
current in there.

In the load (customer) side of the service disconnect they are careful
about where neutral current flows but on the line side it goes
everywhere. The utility bonds everything six ways from sunday and a
metal water system ends up being part of that matrix.

2006-10-31, 3:25 am

In article <ZCp1h.12$0j7.6@newsfe08.lga>,
Proctologically Violated©® <entropic3.14decay@optonline2.718.net> wrote:
>Awl--
>
>How much is acceptable?
>An amp-probe reveals between 2 and 6 amps, depending on how balanced the
>load is on each leg of the main panel.
>I'm hearing that the neutral from the panel is connected to a *steel* cable
>outside, while the hots are indeed connected to copper conductors. This
>would explain some current going through ground.
>
>If the water main connection is broken, no noticeable effect in the
>house--or so it seems.
>
>Mebbe I'll amp-probe some of my neighbors plumbing.

>--

If there really is that much current flowing through ground, it
indicates a ground fault somewhere in the building wiring.

--
For every complicated, difficult problem, there is a simple, easy
solution that does not work.

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm@charm.net

Chris Lewis

2006-10-31, 9:25 am

According to Jeff Wisnia <jwisnia@conversent.net>:
> gfretwell@aol.com wrote:

[color=darkred]
> At last, someone who understands parallel current paths and agrees with me.

> It ain't necessarily so that the the OP MUST have hot to neutral leakage
> somewhere in his home's electrical system.

Consider this, then, while this conductor is indeed in parallel
with the neutral to a certain extent, it's pretty much relying on
the conductance of the dirt to move that 6A, at what's probably
a pretty low neutral-ground voltage. Dirt generally isn't anywhere
near as conductive as a copper wire. So a simple parallel current that
high seems extremely unlikely.

Furthermore, that amount of current is bound to greatly accelerate
any galvanic corrosion (eg: of the pipe).

It needs more investigation. I'd have it looked at. Experiment
with flipping off the main breaker and individual ones.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

gfretwell@aol.com

2006-10-31, 1:25 pm

On Tue, 31 Oct 2006 14:05:53 -0000, clewis@nortelnetworks.com (Chris
Lewis) wrote:

>Consider this, then, while this conductor is indeed in parallel
>with the neutral to a certain extent, it's pretty much relying on
>the conductance of the dirt to move that 6A,

That all depends on whether the water system is all metal or plastic.
In older cities with all metal piping the water system becomes the
city wide ground electrode.
In newer areas everything is plastic so you really are using dirt for
your ground.

Chris Lewis

2006-10-31, 5:25 pm

According to <gfretwell@aol.com>:
> On Tue, 31 Oct 2006 14:05:53 -0000, clewis@nortelnetworks.com (Chris
> Lewis) wrote:

[color=darkred]
> That all depends on whether the water system is all metal or plastic.

Actually, I think it more depends on whether the local pole pig
and your plumbing share a connection.

> In older cities with all metal piping the water system becomes the
> city wide ground electrode.
> In newer areas everything is plastic so you really are using dirt for
> your ground.

I can't help but think that the waterworks doesn't like using
the whole water grid as a ground. Can lead to nasties when someone
has to cut a water main.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

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