Home Repair forum - Steps for installing a transfer switch

Author

Steps for installing a transfer switch

Ignoramus16089

2006-08-20, 5:25 pm

I would like to install a real transfer switch like this one

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ct...temnumber=42163

Our house is wired for 200 amps, so this is the right size for us.

I plan on getting a proper permit, but I want to understand the work
involved.

Here's a picture of our power meter:

http://igor.chudov.com/tmp/onan/Die...ed/dscf0209.jpg

I understand that the proper electrical placement of the TS is to
place it between the power meter and house main breaker. It is the
physical layout that has me confused.

The meter has a prepunched hole to the right, below the utility seal
line. Not sure if it is helpful. After the meter, the electric cable
goes right inside the house, to the panel that is right behind the
meter (maybe 1 foot long).

The question is, how to install a transfer switch here. I aam
obviously unable to open the meter to look, since it is sealed.

What is the normal location of the transfer switch? How is it usually
connected to the meter box?

I would think that if, hypothetically, the meter box had a prepunched
knockout hole a little above the meter, then I would tap there quite
easily, but it does not seem to be the case.

I want to do a 100% perfect job here, that would be inspected and all,
so I want to do it right. Any good assistance would be appreciated.

i

P.S. I would like to avoid suggestions like "just get a little 6
circuit emergen transfer switch", it is not the right one for our
situation.

Christopher Tidy

2006-08-20, 5:25 pm

Ignoramus16089

2006-08-20, 5:25 pm

On Sun, 20 Aug 2006 21:38:08 +0000, Christopher Tidy <cdt22NOSPAM@cantabgold.net> wrote:
> Ignoramus16089 wrote:
>
><snip>
>
> If you don't have ready access to the cable which leads from the meter
> to the main breaker, or if the cable isn't long enough to cut and wire
> into the transfer switch, you are going to need to get inside the meter
> to fit a new cable. Which means getting the electricity board's permission.

I expect that I will need to get inside the meter, and will get proper
permission.

> I would be inclined to get a professional electrician to do this. You
> also need to make sure that the transfer switch is suitable for mounting
> outside, if you intend to do so.

I believe that that one is, but I will call HF or Cutler-Hammer to
make sure.

i

hallerb@aol.com

2006-08-20, 5:25 pm

the transfer switch is a indoor one.

its better to have it inside to minimize kids messing around

install new cable from meter to transfer switch, then new cable to
existing main panel.

How large a generator are you planning? if your from houston with that
13KW unit you might as well get a automatic transfer switch.......

Ignoramus16089

2006-08-20, 5:25 pm

On 20 Aug 2006 14:06:21 -0700, hallerb@aol.com <hallerb@aol.com> wrote:
> the transfer switch is a indoor one.
>
> its better to have it inside to minimize kids messing around

I thought that I could place a padlock on it.

> install new cable from meter to transfer switch, then new cable to
> existing main panel.

I will double check how this T.S. is supposed to be used, I will call
C-H tomorrow. (indoor vs outdoor rating and padlock/lockout availability)

> How large a generator are you planning? if your from houston with that
> 13KW unit you might as well get a automatic transfer switch.......

I have a 7 kW Onan DJE generator,

http://igor.chudov.com/tmp/onan/Diesel/

i

hallerb@aol.com

2006-08-20, 5:25 pm

Did you know theres a safe easier way

Legal too!!!

I think its cutler hammer that has a special breaker for generator
connection.

either the main breaker can be on OR the generator but not both.

completely code legal you install this dual pole 240 volt breaker
connect your generator and your good to go.

Someone posted a link recently WAY cheaper than a transfer switch, no
mucking with meter or even permits if your so inclined

john

2006-08-20, 5:25 pm

Ignoramus16089 wrote:

> I would like to install a real transfer switch like this one
>
> http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ct...temnumber=42163
>
> Our house is wired for 200 amps, so this is the right size for us.
>
> I plan on getting a proper permit, but I want to understand the work
> involved.
>
> Here's a picture of our power meter:
>
> http://igor.chudov.com/tmp/onan/Die...ed/dscf0209.jpg
>
> I understand that the proper electrical placement of the TS is to
> place it between the power meter and house main breaker. It is the
> physical layout that has me confused.
>
> The meter has a prepunched hole to the right, below the utility seal
> line. Not sure if it is helpful. After the meter, the electric cable
> goes right inside the house, to the panel that is right behind the
> meter (maybe 1 foot long).
>
> The question is, how to install a transfer switch here. I aam
> obviously unable to open the meter to look, since it is sealed.
>
> What is the normal location of the transfer switch? How is it usually
> connected to the meter box?
>
> I would think that if, hypothetically, the meter box had a prepunched
> knockout hole a little above the meter, then I would tap there quite
> easily, but it does not seem to be the case.
>
> I want to do a 100% perfect job here, that would be inspected and all,
> so I want to do it right. Any good assistance would be appreciated.
>
> i
>
> P.S. I would like to avoid suggestions like "just get a little 6
> circuit emergen transfer switch", it is not the right one for our
> situation.
>

The first thing you should do is to determine if you want to put
everything on the transfer switch or only the emergency equipment, and
leave off the unnecessary items. If you switch everything you will have
to have the electric company disconnect the power while you put the
switch in the leads from the meter.

If you only want the emergency equipment to run ( furnace, lighting,
refrigerator, freezer) then you put in a branch ckt and run all
emergency the stuff off the branch ckt box. The switch is tied between
the branch and the main box. This can be done without having the
electric company turn off the power.

I would recommend you consult a qualified electrician.

John

Bruce in Alaska

2006-08-20, 5:25 pm

In article <T34Gg.151951$gO.128909@fe09.usenetserver.com>,
Ignoramus16089 <ignoramus16089@NOSPAM.16089.invalid> wrote:

> On Sun, 20 Aug 2006 21:38:08 +0000, Christopher Tidy
> <cdt22NOSPAM@cantabgold.net> wrote:
>
> I expect that I will need to get inside the meter, and will get proper
> permission.
>
>
> I believe that that one is, but I will call HF or Cutler-Hammer to
> make sure.
>
> i
>

Hey Iggy, what most folks do when installing a "Whole House" transfer
switch, is to:

1. Have the electrician make arrangments for with the Power
Authority to have a reconnect schedualed after figuing about
how long the job will take, then break the seal and remove the
Meter, replace the wires from the MeterBase to the Main Breaker
with wires long enough to reach thru the short connecting conduit
between the Main Panel and the Transfer Switch and connect to the
Grid side of the Transfer Switch.
2. Add the wires from the common side of the Transfer Switch back to
the Main Breaker in the panel.
3. Have the Power Authority Guy inspect the work, replace and reseal
the meter.
4. Finish wiring in the Genset on the Genset side of the Transfer
Switch, and your DONE, except writing the the cheque to the
electrician, for his services.

Bruce in alaska
--
add a <2> before @

You

2006-08-20, 5:25 pm

In article <1156108771.722197.70870@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com>,
"hallerb@aol.com" <hallerb@aol.com> wrote:

> Did you know theres a safe easier way

Legal too!!!
>
> I think its cutler hammer that has a special breaker for generator
> connection.
>
> either the main breaker can be on OR the generator but not both.
>
> completely code legal you install this dual pole 240 volt breaker
> connect your generator and your good to go.
>
> Someone posted a link recently WAY cheaper than a transfer switch, no
> mucking with meter or even permits if your so inclined

Anyone who would replace a Main Breaker with the Meter (Power still on)
still inplace, is either CRAZY, or STUPID..... which one are you???

Ignoramus16089

2006-08-20, 5:25 pm

On 20 Aug 2006 14:19:31 -0700, hallerb@aol.com <hallerb@aol.com> wrote:
> Did you know theres a safe easier way

Legal too!!!
>
> I think its cutler hammer that has a special breaker for generator
> connection.
>
> either the main breaker can be on OR the generator but not both.

My panel is by ITE Gould. (which I think is compatible with
homeline).

There is a company interlockkit.com, but I do not like their product,
personally.

i

> completely code legal you install this dual pole 240 volt breaker
> connect your generator and your good to go.
>
> Someone posted a link recently WAY cheaper than a transfer switch, no
> mucking with meter or even permits if your so inclined
>

Ignoramus16089

2006-08-20, 5:25 pm

On Sun, 20 Aug 2006 17:25:59 -0400, john <amdinc@intergrafix.net> wrote:
>
>
> Ignoramus16089 wrote:
>
>
> The first thing you should do is to determine if you want to put
> everything on the transfer switch or only the emergency equipment,
> and leave off the unnecessary items. If you switch everything you
> will have to have the electric company disconnect the power while
> you put the switch in the leads from the meter.

Yes, that's what I want. Everything on the switch.

> If you only want the emergency equipment to run ( furnace, lighting,
> refrigerator, freezer) then you put in a branch ckt and run all
> emergency the stuff off the branch ckt box. The switch is tied between
> the branch and the main box. This can be done without having the
> electric company turn off the power.

I do not want that. I want the entire house on the generator/transfer
switch, I would simply not use certain loads that are too heavy for
the generator (like central A/C).

I have a decent generator that can power my entire house if I turn off
A/C, pool heater, and use the electric kitchen range very sparingly.

Why should I shortchange myself.

Like I said in my original post, I am not interested in a transfer
switch for a few circuits.

i

> I would recommend you consult a qualified electrician.
>
>
> John
>

no one that you know

2006-08-20, 5:25 pm

Where I live I dont need to call them to shut off my power I just pull the
metor out just outside my back door.
I called them to let them know that there was no seal on it and that the
glass was cracked he said "so what" None of the metors in this town have
seal wierd eh!
Made replacing my main panel alot easier.

john wrote:

> Ignoramus16089 wrote:
>
>
> The first thing you should do is to determine if you want to put
> everything on the transfer switch or only the emergency equipment, and
> leave off the unnecessary items. If you switch everything you will have
> to have the electric company disconnect the power while you put the
> switch in the leads from the meter.
>
> If you only want the emergency equipment to run ( furnace, lighting,
> refrigerator, freezer) then you put in a branch ckt and run all
> emergency the stuff off the branch ckt box. The switch is tied between
> the branch and the main box. This can be done without having the
> electric company turn off the power.
>
> I would recommend you consult a qualified electrician.
>
> John

hallerb@aol.com

2006-08-20, 5:25 pm

I have pulled a meter too no biggie power company thanked me for
informing them...

Had fuse break off in its socket, pulled meter used needlenose to
remove broken fuse replaced meter. 15 minutes tops.

Its not scary but its a good idea to turn main breaker off first so
meter doesnt spark when removed and replaced...

again the replacement generator breaker elminates the need for a
transfer switch, is NEC code compliant and if it werent for my computer
troubles a couple days ago I would have a link

Dale Eastman

2006-08-20, 8:25 pm

You wrote:
> In article <1156108771.722197.70870@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com>,
> "hallerb@aol.com" <hallerb@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Anyone who would replace a Main Breaker with the Meter (Power still on)
> still inplace, is either CRAZY, or STUPID..... which one are you???
..

Intellitroll (tm):

This should be good for a brief discussion of electrical safety.

Lucy, 'splain to me how shutting off the breaker (no current through
the breaker or the breaker contacts, and snapping the breaker of the
contacts ain't safe? With no current through the breaker, there's no
current through the contacts to make an arc when the breaker is removed.

And what about those CRAZY and STUPID birds that sit on those
uninsulated live wires that feed juice to the pole pigs?

Of course, after the breaker is out, don't be licking your finger and
touching the the box's breaker contacts. And the new breaker must be
put back immediately. A transfer switch breaker would have to have
additional contacts, but in the main power "off" position the genny
contacts and the house side contacts are isolated from the line.

Have fun with this one. I'm going to sit back and observe now.

Ignoramus16089

2006-08-20, 8:25 pm

On Sun, 20 Aug 2006 21:47:25 GMT, Bruce in Alaska <bruceg@btpost.net> wrote:
> In article <T34Gg.151951$gO.128909@fe09.usenetserver.com>,
> Ignoramus16089 <ignoramus16089@NOSPAM.16089.invalid> wrote:
>
>
> Hey Iggy, what most folks do when installing a "Whole House" transfer
> switch, is to:
>
> 1. Have the electrician make arrangments for with the Power
> Authority to have a reconnect schedualed after figuing about
> how long the job will take, then break the seal and remove the
> Meter, replace the wires from the MeterBase to the Main Breaker
> with wires long enough to reach thru the short connecting conduit
> between the Main Panel and the Transfer Switch and connect to the
> Grid side of the Transfer Switch.
> 2. Add the wires from the common side of the Transfer Switch back to
> the Main Breaker in the panel.
> 3. Have the Power Authority Guy inspect the work, replace and reseal
> the meter.
> 4. Finish wiring in the Genset on the Genset side of the Transfer
> Switch, and your DONE, except writing the the cheque to the
> electrician, for his services.

Bruce, thanks. Couple questions.

Would you say that the better place for T.S. is inside, as someone
else suggested, rather than outside?

Can i use [more flexible and easier to work with] properly sized
welding wire?

i

hallerb@aol.com

2006-08-20, 8:25 pm

> Hey Iggy, what most folks do when installing a "Whole House" transfer
> switch, is to:
>
> 1. Have the electrician make arrangments for with the Power
> Authority to have a reconnect schedualed after figuing about
> how long the job will take, then break the seal and remove the
> Meter, replace the wires from the MeterBase to the Main Breaker
> with wires long enough to reach thru the short connecting conduit
> between the Main Panel and the Transfer Switch and connect to the
> Grid side of the Transfer Switch.
> 2. Add the wires from the common side of the Transfer Switch back to
> the Main Breaker in the panel.
> 3. Have the Power Authority Guy inspect the work, replace and reseal
> the meter.
> 4. Finish wiring in the Genset on the Genset side of the Transfer
> Switch, and your DONE, except writing the the cheque to the
> electrician, for his services.
>
> Bruce in alaska
> --

all unnecessary with that breaker kit..............

Steve Smith

2006-08-20, 9:25 pm

Ignoramus16089 wrote:
[color=darkred]
>On Sun, 20 Aug 2006 17:25:59 -0400, john <amdinc@intergrafix.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>Yes, that's what I want. Everything on the switch.
>
>
>
>
>I do not want that. I want the entire house on the generator/transfer
>switch, I would simply not use certain loads that are too heavy for
>the generator (like central A/C).
>
>I have a decent generator that can power my entire house if I turn off
>A/C, pool heater, and use the electric kitchen range very sparingly.
>
>Why should I shortchange myself.
>
>Like I said in my original post, I am not interested in a transfer
>switch for a few circuits.
>
>i
>
>
>
Iggy, instead of an automatic transfer switch, we put in a manual one
(i.e. just a big, properly enclosed knife switch setup). Manual control
(if you are at home) is pretty easy, and I wonder what kind of erroneous
responses you can get out of an automatic setup.

Our generator is (I think) 7.5kW, it works very nicely to run our house
on the odd occasion we need it. It takes over the panel (via the big
switch) and feeds the whole house, we just take care not to overload
it. We decided we needed it after hearing about the ice storm (10 years
ago?) here in Maine where many people were without power for over a week.

Steve

kbeitz@lockhavenonline.com

2006-08-21, 9:25 am

the main breaker most of the time needs wired in...not snaped in...
Better shut off the power...

Don Bruder

2006-08-21, 9:25 am

In article <rX8Gg.66243$9a.12592@fe15.usenetserver.com>,
Ignoramus16089 <ignoramus16089@NOSPAM.16089.invalid> wrote:

> On Sun, 20 Aug 2006 22:08:47 -0400, Steve Smith <sos@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
>
> yep, that's exactly what I want, and that's what the switch that I
> mentioned in my original post, does.
>
>
>
> I agree 100%. I would not install an automatic transfer switch in my
> worst nightmare.
>

Y'know, I recall a post someplace (I'll be dipped if I can recall where)
about doing the "100% manual, total-switchover" thing. Let's see if
memory serves me -

Wire generator to appropriate-sized box containing proper amperage power
socket.

Wire meter side to an identical-but-separate box/socket nearby.

Wire house side to appropriate-sized box with a pigtail ending in a
single plug that matches the two sockets, placed so that the plug can
easily be plugged into either socket.

Grid operation: The house pigtail is plugged into the meter socket.

Generator operation: The house pigtail is pulled out of the meter socket
and plugged into the generator socket.

Seems to me that would constitute absolutely failsafe generator
isolation/switching for "Real Cheap", and should still be kosher to
inspectors, assuming proper wire sizes/sockets/plug/etc. go into the
work.

I also remember reading about a neighborhood "emergency power co-op"
that had many of the houses set up in a simliar way, with the special
purpose of keeping things cold/warm. A special FFF - "Fridge, Freezer &
Furnace" circuit ran out to a setup as described. Normal operation had
that circuit plugged into a dedicated box off the breaker panel. During
an extended outage, a shared generator with a custom pigtail to a socket
matching the house plugs made the rounds - A couple hours at each place
kept everything frozen proper and/or warmed up the house.

>
> Exactly my plan. Plus I am planning on sharing this with my neighbors,
> so that they can run some fridges and furnaces.

EEP!!!!

RUN AWAY!

You're setting yourself up for a complete disaster if you try that
action! You *DON'T* want to be dinking around running extension cords to
neighbors when you're running off a genny - The losses in the cords will
eat you (and your generator - and if things go completely wrong, one or
more houses...) alive unless you're in a rowhouse/apartment building
type situation. (and even then, you're dicey)

--
Don Bruder - dakidd@sonic.net - If your "From:" address isn't on my whitelist,
or the subject of the message doesn't contain the exact text "PopperAndShadow"
somewhere, any message sent to this address will go in the garbage without my
ever knowing it arrived. Sorry... <http://www.sonic.net/~dakidd> for more info

Steve Smith

2006-08-21, 9:25 am

Ignoramus16089 wrote:

>On Sun, 20 Aug 2006 22:08:47 -0400, Steve Smith <sos@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
>
>
>
>yep, that's exactly what I want, and that's what the switch that I
>mentioned in my original post, does.
>
>
>
>
>
>I agree 100%. I would not install an automatic transfer switch in my
>worst nightmare.
>
>
>
>
>Exactly my plan. Plus I am planning on sharing this with my neighbors,
>so that they can run some fridges and furnaces.
>
>i
>
>
>
I misunderstood (or more likely didn't read close enough) previous posts.

Steve

Dale Eastman

2006-08-21, 1:25 pm

kbeitz@lockhavenonline.com wrote:
> the main breaker most of the time needs wired in...not snaped in...
> Better shut off the power...
>

When that is the case, I agree. Shut the main off, pull the meter.

--
Anybody answering this post consents to having their replies posted on
my website.
(Not that I need your consent since you post to public domain.)

Pete C.

2006-08-21, 1:25 pm

Ignoramus16089 wrote:[color=darkred]
>
> On 20 Aug 2006 14:19:31 -0700, hallerb@aol.com <hallerb@aol.com> wrote:
>
> My panel is by ITE Gould. (which I think is compatible with
> homeline).
>
> There is a company interlockkit.com, but I do not like their product,
> personally.
>
> i
>

Square D makes generator back feed interlock kits for several of their
panels. I installed on in the new QO panel I recently installed.

http://ecatalog.squared.com/techlib...900892680126e4f

Pete C.

Ignoramus4235

2006-08-21, 1:25 pm

On Mon, 21 Aug 2006 16:06:00 GMT, Pete C. <aux3.DOH.4@snet.net> wrote:
> Ignoramus16089 wrote:
>
> Square D makes generator back feed interlock kits for several of their
> panels. I installed on in the new QO panel I recently installed.
>
> http://ecatalog.squared.com/techlib...900892680126e4f
>

Pete, your link did not work for me, sorry. If Homeline is a brand of
Square D, I will just call them on the phone.

i

Saul

2006-08-21, 5:25 pm

Whats in that box with the wheels? Looks interesting

"Ignoramus16089" <ignoramus16089@NOSPAM.16089.invalid> wrote in message
news:LS2Gg.75710$TW.20743@fe30.usenetserver.com...
>I would like to install a real transfer switch like this one
>
> http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ct...temnumber=42163
>
> Our house is wired for 200 amps, so this is the right size for us.
>
> I plan on getting a proper permit, but I want to understand the work
> involved.
>
> Here's a picture of our power meter:
>
> http://igor.chudov.com/tmp/onan/Die...ed/dscf0209.jpg
>
> I understand that the proper electrical placement of the TS is to
> place it between the power meter and house main breaker. It is the
> physical layout that has me confused.
>
> The meter has a prepunched hole to the right, below the utility seal
> line. Not sure if it is helpful. After the meter, the electric cable
> goes right inside the house, to the panel that is right behind the
> meter (maybe 1 foot long).
>
> The question is, how to install a transfer switch here. I aam
> obviously unable to open the meter to look, since it is sealed.
>
> What is the normal location of the transfer switch? How is it usually
> connected to the meter box?
>
> I would think that if, hypothetically, the meter box had a prepunched
> knockout hole a little above the meter, then I would tap there quite
> easily, but it does not seem to be the case.
>
> I want to do a 100% perfect job here, that would be inspected and all,
> so I want to do it right. Any good assistance would be appreciated.
>
> i
>
> P.S. I would like to avoid suggestions like "just get a little 6
> circuit emergen transfer switch", it is not the right one for our
> situation.
>

Ignoramus4235

2006-08-21, 5:25 pm

On Mon, 21 Aug 2006 14:28:04 -0400, Saul <SEpstein@pleasenospan.com> wrote:
> Whats in that box with the wheels? Looks interesting

generator.

http://igor.chudov.com/tmp/onan/Diesel/

i

>
> "Ignoramus16089" <ignoramus16089@NOSPAM.16089.invalid> wrote in message
> news:LS2Gg.75710$TW.20743@fe30.usenetserver.com...
>
>

Pete C.

2006-08-21, 5:25 pm

Ignoramus4235 wrote:
>
> On Mon, 21 Aug 2006 16:06:00 GMT, Pete C. <aux3.DOH.4@snet.net> wrote:
>
> Pete, your link did not work for me, sorry. If Homeline is a brand of
> Square D, I will just call them on the phone.
>
> i

You are correct, that link does appear to be hosed. This one works:

http://www.squared.com/us/applicati...c2002small.pdf/$file/RetaiLinkDec2002small.pdf

I don't believe these kits are applicable to panel models other than QO
and Homeline, even if the Homeline breakers follow the standardized 1"
breaker format.

Pete C.

Bruce in Alaska

2006-08-21, 5:25 pm

In article <R37Gg.175183$B82.115529@fe53.usenetserver.com>,
Ignoramus16089 <ignoramus16089@NOSPAM.16089.invalid> wrote:

>
> Bruce, thanks. Couple questions.
>
> Would you say that the better place for T.S. is inside, as someone
> else suggested, rather than outside?
>
> Can i use [more flexible and easier to work with] properly sized
> welding wire?
>
> i

I would install the Transfer Switch as close to the Main Panel as
possible. Typically, adjacent with a 1 1/2" Dia. nipple in between,
as you can run the new wires from the MeterBase into the Main Panel,
and thru the nipple to the Transfer Switch, and then from the Transfer
Switch back to the Main Breaker. This keeps the runs short, and makes
for centrally located Home Power Managment, as you may want to drop
some of the loads offline in the Main Panel when running OffGrid on
the Genset.

You can use any UL 600V Insulated wire, of the appropriate size for the
current, that suits you. It is the Insulation Rating that the Inspector
will be looking at. Typically Welding Cable isn't rated at 600V, so you
may have to find a suitable wire that has the UL Insulation Rating
approprite to the service.

Bruce in alaska who likes Welding Cable for Battery Jumpers and
Inverter Dc Feedlines.......
--
add a <2> before @

Ignoramus4235

2006-08-21, 5:25 pm

On Mon, 21 Aug 2006 19:55:51 GMT, Bruce in Alaska <bruceg@btpost.net> wrote:
> I would install the Transfer Switch as close to the Main Panel as
> possible. Typically, adjacent with a 1 1/2" Dia. nipple in between,
> as you can run the new wires from the MeterBase into the Main Panel,
> and thru the nipple to the Transfer Switch, and then from the Transfer
> Switch back to the Main Breaker. This keeps the runs short, and makes
> for centrally located Home Power Managment, as you may want to drop
> some of the loads offline in the Main Panel when running OffGrid on
> the Genset.

OK, I like this idea a lot. I will do it exactly as you say, all my
doubts have been resolved.

> You can use any UL 600V Insulated wire, of the appropriate size for the
> current, that suits you. It is the Insulation Rating that the Inspector
> will be looking at. Typically Welding Cable isn't rated at 600V, so you
> may have to find a suitable wire that has the UL Insulation Rating
> approprite to the service.

OK, I will definitely look for suitable 600v rated wire -- the
flexible wire is so much easier to work with, it is worth the extra
$$ -- not that much for just a dozen feet or so.

i

Bruce L. Bergman

2006-08-21, 5:25 pm

On Sun, 20 Aug 2006 19:38:19 GMT, Ignoramus16089
<ignoramus16089@NOSPAM.16089.invalid> wrote:

>I would like to install a real transfer switch like this one
>
>http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ct...temnumber=42163
>
>Our house is wired for 200 amps, so this is the right size for us.
>
>I plan on getting a proper permit, but I want to understand the work
>involved.
>
>Here's a picture of our power meter:
>
>http://igor.chudov.com/tmp/onan/Die...ed/dscf0209.jpg
>
>I understand that the proper electrical placement of the TS is to
>place it between the power meter and house main breaker. It is the
>physical layout that has me confused.

It would be best there, but you might want a safety switch before
that... You're going to make me go get my copy of NEC aren't you?
The new one has a whole section on transfer switches and generator
connections - and I didn't memorize the darned thing.

But with your luck, your local codes are locally written and totally
different. They really aren't standardized that well.

Make it easy on yourself - Call your local city/county building
inspector, make an appointment for a pow-wow and talk it over, ask
him/her what he wants to see. You can over-engineer it and make it
"perfect" - but why? KISS.

>The meter has a prepunched hole to the right, below the utility seal
>line. Not sure if it is helpful. After the meter, the electric cable
>goes right inside the house, to the panel that is right behind the
>meter (maybe 1 foot long).
>
>The question is, how to install a transfer switch here. I aam
>obviously unable to open the meter to look, since it is sealed.

You could stick it to one side of the meter socket, and put a big
nipple or fitting between the boxes - but it's not the preferred
method. You would have to send the 'Utility In' and 'Switch Out'
power going through the same conduit and through the same meter socket
can, and it would be too easy to get an accidental backfeed out onto
the utility lines. ESPECIALLY if someone else gets in there and isn't
clear on the concept.

I'd put the transfer switch off to one side of the main, and abandon
the wires going out the back of the meter socket can directly to the
house breaker panel. Make a new house feed out the back of the
transfer switch going inside to the house breaker panel. And at the
bottom of the transfer switch you put a landing-lug box where the
leads from the portable generator tie down.

Try to lay it out so the wires inside the transfer switch can do not
physically cross inside the can - so if the wires get all hot and
melty (technical term, I know...) they can't make an unintentional
cross connection.

>What is the normal location of the transfer switch? How is it usually
>connected to the meter box?

I've always seen them in commercial situations with the Utility Main
Breaker placed ahead of the transfer switch, so they can open that
breaker as a drop-dead "No Way In HELL it can backfeed" safety. The
extra safety step makes the utility linemen working on the snapped
lines much happier when they hear a generator running way off in the
distance.

That way you still have the separate Fire Alarm disconnect in
parallel with the Main Breaker as a place to monitor whether the
Utility Power has come back up. (For a business they might turn off
and lock the Main and kill the lights for non-payment, but they have
to leave the Fire Alarm feed on or the insurance coverage goes away.
And it's also a Life Safety issue.)

In a residential situation, if you want to change over the entire
house on the transfer switch you'd need a separate fused switch or
enclosed breaker to power the monitor light. And get the concept
cleared by the local inspector. Otherwise, how do you know for sure
when they've got the utility power back on?

>I would think that if, hypothetically, the meter box had a prepunched
>knockout hole a little above the meter, then I would tap there quite
>easily, but it does not seem to be the case.

If it's a safe place to make a hole, you can get a pilot drill and a
knockout punch and blast a hole through the side of the can in about
two minutes. They can't put knockouts everywhere anyone could
possibly need them, or the can would fall apart...

>I want to do a 100% perfect job here, that would be inspected and all,
>so I want to do it right. Any good assistance would be appreciated.

"Perfect" is an unreachable goal unless you are Bill Gates and have
a ton o' money to spend on "Perfect" - Lets see here... A 40KW or
60KW genset with a ton of excess motor- starting oomph and automatic
transfer switch, a large fuel tank, and a big UPS inverter running all
the critical systems in the house as hold-over - That'll only cost you
25 grand or so to set up...

The lights go out partially, you hear a very muted engine cranking
and starting outside, and 15 seconds later all the lights pop back on
like nothing happened, and will stay that way for days. And the
genset is big enough that no power budgeting is needed, you can be
working in the shop on the lathe with the AC up full blast while the
Mrs. is baking in the electric oven, no worries.

--<< Bruce >>--

Snag

2006-08-21, 8:25 pm

no one that you know wrote:
> Where I live I dont need to call them to shut off my power I just
> pull the metor out just outside my back door.
> I called them to let them know that there was no seal on it and that
> the glass was cracked he said "so what" None of the metors in this
> town have seal wierd eh!
> Made replacing my main panel alot easier.
>
My meter has been without a seal for several years now . Called the power
company when I first broke the seal to work on my breaker box , they never
came out to replace it . My panel was replaced recently too - after I looked
inside and saw the AC breaker arcing on the tab .
Got a buncha poles not being used - yet . Also got the capacity to wire
my shed/shop properly now , with it's own box . Which is where I'll feed the
main panel from next time I need to use the generator .
Betcha if my power usage goes down significantly they'll be out with a
seal . And a warrant . Only ones that get to steal from the utility company
here are the people in charge ...
--

Snag aka OSG #1
'76 FLH "Bag Lady"
BS132 SENS NEWT
"A hand shift is a manly shift ."
<shamelessly stolen >
none to one to reply

Robert Morein

2006-08-22, 5:25 pm

"Ignoramus16089" <ignoramus16089@NOSPAM.16089.invalid> wrote in message
news:LS2Gg.75710$TW.20743@fe30.usenetserver.com...
>I would like to install a real transfer switch like this one
>
> http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ct...temnumber=42163
>
> Our house is wired for 200 amps, so this is the right size for us.

Is this 200 amps at 120, or 200 amps at 240? You have 240 service, but are
the amps 200 from hot to hot, or the sum of each leg to neutral? 200 amps
at 240 is 48kw. I question because 48kw is vastly in excess of typical
residential power requirements. Consider the possibility that the next size
down the 100 amp unit, is the fit. The 200 amp unit is a HUGE box! It's
designed to switch a 48kw hot load.

We have a master disconnect. The transfer switch is located between the
master disconnect and the main panel. We use a second transfer switch to
disconnect optional loads, and shunt them directly to a 2nd generator.

>
> I plan on getting a proper permit, but I want to understand the work
> involved.
>
> Here's a picture of our power meter:
>
> http://igor.chudov.com/tmp/onan/Die...ed/dscf0209.jpg
>
> I understand that the proper electrical placement of the TS is to
> place it between the power meter and house main breaker. It is the
> physical layout that has me confused.
>
> The meter has a prepunched hole to the right, below the utility seal
> line. Not sure if it is helpful. After the meter, the electric cable
> goes right inside the house, to the panel that is right behind the
> meter (maybe 1 foot long).
>
> The question is, how to install a transfer switch here. I aam
> obviously unable to open the meter to look, since it is sealed.
>
> What is the normal location of the transfer switch? How is it usually
> connected to the meter box?
>
> I would think that if, hypothetically, the meter box had a prepunched
> knockout hole a little above the meter, then I would tap there quite
> easily, but it does not seem to be the case.
>
> I want to do a 100% perfect job here, that would be inspected and all,
> so I want to do it right. Any good assistance would be appreciated.
>
> i
>
> P.S. I would like to avoid suggestions like "just get a little 6
> circuit emergen transfer switch", it is not the right one for our
> situation.
>

Ignoramus20689

2006-08-22, 5:25 pm

On Tue, 22 Aug 2006 15:29:56 -0400, Robert Morein <nowhere@nowhere.com> wrote:
>
> "Ignoramus16089" <ignoramus16089@NOSPAM.16089.invalid> wrote in message
> news:LS2Gg.75710$TW.20743@fe30.usenetserver.com...
>
> Is this 200 amps at 120, or 200 amps at 240? You have 240 service, but are
> the amps 200 from hot to hot, or the sum of each leg to neutral? 200 amps
> at 240 is 48kw. I question because 48kw is vastly in excess of typical
> residential power requirements.

I have a 240V panel, and the breaker says "200" on its handle. It is a
breaker that would open if current through one of its legs exceeded
200 amps (that's a nominal rating, meaning that it would allow for
momentary overcurrents to some extent).

While I rarely use 43 kW of power, I do at times use a lot of
power. Example. I am TIG welding in my garage, my wife is cooking a
lot of food on the range, my A/C is running, etc. That could easily
add up to 140 amps or more (and would be a very rare occurrence).

> Consider the possibility that the next size down the 100 amp unit,
> is the fit. The 200 amp unit is a HUGE box! It's designed to switch
> a 48kw hot load.

Well, I would surely be happy to use a smaller and cheaper box, if it
was possible, but it is my understanding that the rating of transfer
switch should match the rating of the house's electrical service.

> We have a master disconnect. The transfer switch is located between the
> master disconnect and the main panel. We use a second transfer switch to
> disconnect optional loads, and shunt them directly to a 2nd generator.

sounds interesting.

i

Bill Janssen

2006-08-22, 8:25 pm

Ignoramus20689 wrote:

>i
>
>Well, I would surely be happy to use a smaller and cheaper box, if it
>was possible, but it is my understanding that the rating of transfer
>switch should match the rating of the house's electrical service.
>
Well you could put in a sub panel and put the transfer switch in the
feed to the sub panel

I have been following this tread because I am thinking of going the sub
panel rout.
The down side is you have to decide which circuits will be on the sub
panel. I my
case its only the well. the outlets in the kitchen and the lights in the
kitchen.

Bill K7NOM

Ignoramus20689

2006-08-22, 8:25 pm

On Tue, 22 Aug 2006 23:29:54 GMT, Bill Janssen <billj@ieee.org> wrote:
> Ignoramus20689 wrote:
>
> Well you could put in a sub panel and put the transfer switch in the
> feed to the sub panel
>
> I have been following this tread because I am thinking of going the
> sub panel rout. The down side is you have to decide which circuits
> will be on the sub panel. I my case its only the well. the outlets
> in the kitchen and the lights in the kitchen.

In my case, I have a lot of circuits, most of which supply some
important loads but draw very little current, like compact fluorescent
lighting. So choosing only very few of them would inconvenience me
greatly.

i

jbgreig@gmail.com

2006-08-23, 3:25 am

Ignoramus20689 wrote:
> On Tue, 22 Aug 2006 23:29:54 GMT, Bill Janssen <billj@ieee.org> wrote:
>
> In my case, I have a lot of circuits, most of which supply some
> important loads but draw very little current, like compact fluorescent
> lighting. So choosing only very few of them would inconvenience me
> greatly.
>
> i

I have a feeling I'm going to regret this, but here goes...

I too was concerned with the limited number of circuits available with
typical, sub panel type transfer switches. I have a 16kw generator,
and a 16 circuit sub panel type ATS. I have circuits that literally
draw less than an amp or two in most situations, never more than 5
amps. I just wired them together in the main panel. Kind of rigged my
16 circuit sub panel into an ever expanding sub panel, probably 24 or
more circuits are controlled now.

It's an automatic transfer switch, which I know you do not want, but I
did the same thing last year when a hurricane hit and I had a 6 circuit
manual switch. I had 6 circuits wired, but was using a fraction of the
generator's power. At the time, I had a 7500 watt generator, and
averaged about 2000 watts. So I added rooms as needed, with no ill
effects.

FWIW it's a Generac 5244 generator and matched transfer switch. I
thought about the service disconnect, whole house transfer switch, but
I know my family cannot control their energy consumption. When
breaking in my generator, my wife turned on the Advantium oven
(microwave on steroids). It kept up, but only because the 5 ton AC was
not running. And I cautioned about turning on lights when breaking
in..........

Brad

Thomas D. Horne, FF EMT

2006-08-23, 5:25 pm

Ignoramus20689 wrote:
> On Tue, 22 Aug 2006 15:29:56 -0400, Robert Morein <nowhere@nowhere.com> wrote:
>
> I have a 240V panel, and the breaker says "200" on its handle. It is a
> breaker that would open if current through one of its legs exceeded
> 200 amps (that's a nominal rating, meaning that it would allow for
> momentary overcurrents to some extent).
>
> While I rarely use 43 kW of power, I do at times use a lot of
> power. Example. I am TIG welding in my garage, my wife is cooking a
> lot of food on the range, my A/C is running, etc. That could easily
> add up to 140 amps or more (and would be a very rare occurrence).
>
>
> Well, I would surely be happy to use a smaller and cheaper box, if it
> was possible, but it is my understanding that the rating of transfer
> switch should match the rating of the house's electrical service.
>
>
> sounds interesting.
>
> i
>

You have identified the correct switch. A two hundred ampere main
breaker results in the need for a two hundred ampere transfer assembly.
Be advised that a main breaker interlock kit will achieve the same
result at far lower cost. What brand and model is your main breaker
enclosure; such as your main distribution panel?
--
Tom Horne

Well we aren't no thin blue heroes and yet we aren't no blackguards to.
We're just working men and woman most remarkable like you.

Ignoramus18055

2006-08-23, 5:25 pm

On Wed, 23 Aug 2006 19:41:48 GMT, Thomas D. Horne, FF EMT <hornetd@mindspring.com> wrote:
> Ignoramus20689 wrote:
>
> You have identified the correct switch. A two hundred ampere main
> breaker results in the need for a two hundred ampere transfer assembly.
> Be advised that a main breaker interlock kit will achieve the same
> result at far lower cost. What brand and model is your main breaker
> enclosure; such as your main distribution panel?

ITE Gould. It accepts Homeline breakers for branch circuits.

i

Wayne Whitney

2006-08-23, 5:25 pm

On 2006-08-21, Bruce in Alaska <bruceg@btpost.net> wrote:

> I would install the Transfer Switch as close to the Main Panel as
> possible. Typically, adjacent with a 1 1/2" Dia. nipple in between

What is the proper detailing for this nipple, to make it raintight?

Thanks, Wayne

Tom Horne, Electrician

2006-08-23, 5:25 pm

Ignoramus16089 wrote:
> On 20 Aug 2006 14:19:31 -0700, hallerb@aol.com <hallerb@aol.com> wrote:
>
> My panel is by ITE Gould. (which I think is compatible with
> homeline).
>
> There is a company interlockkit.com, but I do not like their product,
> personally.
>
> i
>
>

I'm afraid you are out of luck on a transfer interlock kit as ITE/Gould
is no longer manufactured.

If you install a Square D feed through lug panel ahead of your existing
panel and add a generator interlock kit to it you will still come out
cheaper than the full sized transfer switch for the materials the labor
will be similar.
--
Tom Horne

"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous
for general use." Thomas Alva Edison

Marty Escarcega

2006-08-24, 3:25 am

Ignoramus16089 <ignoramus16089@NOSPAM.16089.invalid> wrote in
news:LS2Gg.75710$TW.20743@fe30.usenetserver.com:

> I would like to install a real transfer switch like this one
>
> http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ct...temnumber=42163
>
> Our house is wired for 200 amps, so this is the right size for us.
>
> I plan on getting a proper permit, but I want to understand the work
> involved.
>
> Here's a picture of our power meter:
>
> http://igor.chudov.com/tmp/onan/Die...ed/dscf0209.jpg
>
> I understand that the proper electrical placement of the TS is to
> place it between the power meter and house main breaker. It is the
> physical layout that has me confused.
>
> The meter has a prepunched hole to the right, below the utility seal
> line. Not sure if it is helpful. After the meter, the electric cable
> goes right inside the house, to the panel that is right behind the
> meter (maybe 1 foot long).
>
> The question is, how to install a transfer switch here. I aam
> obviously unable to open the meter to look, since it is sealed.
>
> What is the normal location of the transfer switch? How is it usually
> connected to the meter box?
>
> I would think that if, hypothetically, the meter box had a prepunched
> knockout hole a little above the meter, then I would tap there quite
> easily, but it does not seem to be the case.
>
> I want to do a 100% perfect job here, that would be inspected and all,
> so I want to do it right. Any good assistance would be appreciated.
>
> i
>
> P.S. I would like to avoid suggestions like "just get a little 6
> circuit emergen transfer switch", it is not the right one for our
> situation.
>

Most times a new sub panel is installed, those circuits fed by the
generator are moved to it and the transfer switch is installed between
the old panel and new.

Why would you want to run EVERYTHING? That's a helluva big generator
needed.

Mostly critical loads, like lighting, refrigerator, freezer are put on a
generator.

Marty

hallerb@aol.com

2006-08-24, 3:25 am

if you power all circuits many will have minor l;oads like a light or
two on steps.

you turn off all heavy unnecessary loads.

a bit more work during a outage but actually more flexible.........

better than finding a critical load isnt on a generator line.....

Bruce L. Bergman

2006-08-24, 3:25 am

On Wed, 23 Aug 2006 20:32:43 GMT, "Tom Horne, Electrician"
<hornetd@mindspring.com> wrote:
>Ignoramus16089 wrote:

>
>I'm afraid you are out of luck on a transfer interlock kit as ITE/Gould
>is no longer manufactured.

Gee, don't tell the folks at Siemens Energy & Automation about that
- they bought ITE and Crouse Hinds and Murray (and a bunch of
others...) and a lot of the old stuff is still in production and
available by special order. That, or they have published an approved
substitution cross list for newer breaker lines.

They're still making new ITE Pushmatic breakers, and I know there's
a 'rocker' style two-breaker interlock for them - I have one. Don't
have any IDEA where I'll ever use it, but I have one.

>If you install a Square D feed through lug panel ahead of your existing
>panel and add a generator interlock kit to it you will still come out
>cheaper than the full sized transfer switch for the materials the labor
>will be similar.

If you must use SquareD stuff, at least stick with the Homeline line
which is ALMOST "Industrial Interchange" size. (The bus stabs are
slightly different, but you can make others fit in a pinch.)

If SquareD ever goes belly up, the proprietary bus QO stuff will be
a problem to get replacements for. Reference Zinsco and Federal
Pacific - You can get the 'Made Somewhere in Asia' cheap replacements
from UBI, but IMNSHO they're downright dangerous.

--<< Bruce >>--

Chris Lewis

2006-08-24, 9:25 am

According to Bruce L. Bergman <blPYTHONbergman@earthlink.invalid>:
> On Wed, 23 Aug 2006 20:32:43 GMT, "Tom Horne, Electrician"

[color=darkred]
> If you must use SquareD stuff, at least stick with the Homeline line
> which is ALMOST "Industrial Interchange" size. (The bus stabs are
> slightly different, but you can make others fit in a pinch.)

> If SquareD ever goes belly up, the proprietary bus QO stuff will be
> a problem to get replacements for.

But at least they work.

My luck with Homelines is abysmal. Since 1991, 3 of 4 homeline
breakers in the pony panel to the Jennair cooktop have died.

They trip, and cannot be reset. [Even after removal from the panel ;-)]

I've never experienced _any_ other breaker failures (and I've worked
on a fair number of systems of varying manufacturers).
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

Tom Horne, Electrician

2006-08-24, 1:25 pm

Bruce L. Bergman wrote:
> On Wed, 23 Aug 2006 20:32:43 GMT, "Tom Horne, Electrician"
> <hornetd@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>
> Gee, don't tell the folks at Siemens Energy & Automation about that
> - they bought ITE and Crouse Hinds and Murray (and a bunch of
> others...) and a lot of the old stuff is still in production and
> available by special order. That, or they have published an approved
> substitution cross list for newer breaker lines.
>
> They're still making new ITE Pushmatic breakers, and I know there's
> a 'rocker' style two-breaker interlock for them - I have one. Don't
> have any IDEA where I'll ever use it, but I have one.
>
>
> If you must use SquareD stuff, at least stick with the Homeline line
> which is ALMOST "Industrial Interchange" size. (The bus stabs are
> slightly different, but you can make others fit in a pinch.)
>
> If SquareD ever goes belly up, the proprietary bus QO stuff will be
> a problem to get replacements for. Reference Zinsco and Federal
> Pacific - You can get the 'Made Somewhere in Asia' cheap replacements
> from UBI, but IMNSHO they're downright dangerous.
>
> --<< Bruce >>--
>

Bruce
I never intended to imply that parts were not available but that does
not make my statement that main breaker interlock kits are not
available. Since the panels themselves are no longer manufactured there
is no likelihood of such an interlock kit becoming available.

I perceive you are a fan of so called universal breakers. Are you aware
that the use of any breaker that is not laboratory listed or recognized
for the panel in which it is installed is a violation of the US NEC.
The use of so called interchangeable breakers in another manufactures
panel is usually done in violation of the local electrical code. This
is why professional electricians often carry the more expensive Thomas &
Bettes breakers to use in universal panels because Thomas & Bettes is
one of the few manufacturers to have their breakers tested for use in
other manufacturers panels.
--
Tom Horne

"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous
for general use." Thomas Alva Edison

Bruce L. Bergman

2006-08-25, 3:25 am

On Thu, 24 Aug 2006 17:12:42 GMT, "Tom Horne, Electrician"
<hornetd@mindspring.com> wrote:

>I perceive you are a fan of so called universal breakers. Are you aware
>that the use of any breaker that is not laboratory listed or recognized
>for the panel in which it is installed is a violation of the US NEC.
>The use of so called interchangeable breakers in another manufactures
>panel is usually done in violation of the local electrical code. This
>is why professional electricians often carry the more expensive Thomas &
>Bettes breakers to use in universal panels because Thomas & Bettes is
>one of the few manufacturers to have their breakers tested for use in
>other manufacturers panels.

I don't ever plan to deliberately use the "wrong" breaker, I carry a
decent selection of both Murray/Siemens 'MP'-'QP' AND the Cutler
Hammer/Challenger 'CH' on the truck, even though they overlap quite a
bit - but they are the two dominant players in the market and you need
to use the proper breaker for the panel. And I carry a decent
selection of GE THQL/THQP and a smattering of Homeline.

But 25 years from now when you can't get the "right" breaker for the
panel, if they're all using a standard form factor someone else's will
fit in a pinch. If it's a proprietary form factor, all bets are off.

T&B's best 'substitution' product is the Zinsco Q and R38/RC38
clones, those I keep around. And they are type accepted, unlike the
Taiwan UBI knockoffs.

NEC is important, but the customers also need their lights,
refrigerator and furnace on for the night too. You can track down the
"right" breaker on Monday, or get all the parts together for a proper
Panel Change to a modern panel without it being a total panic rush
because the customer is in the dark.

--<< Bruce >>--

Stephen Carlson

2006-08-31, 1:25 pm

Hello everyone:
This is my first post to this group, and I've been following this thread.
First, the NEC states that the conductors from the service entrance to the
main breaker (not being fused) should be as short as practicable.
Personally I would be very reluctant to install any equipment upstream of
ANY breakers.
Second, a sub-panel can be arbitrarily large, limited only by the maximum
breaker size allowed in your main panel. If you know that you are not going
to use certain loads, don't install them. Or move EVERYTHING over to the
sub. You will stilll have the safety of a breaker ahead of everything, and
you can take your monitor light off the main panel.
Just my 2 cents.

<hallerb@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1156388977.192044.317420@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
> if you power all circuits many will have minor l;oads like a light or
> two on steps.
>
> you turn off all heavy unnecessary loads.
>
> a bit more work during a outage but actually more flexible.........
>
>
> better than finding a critical load isnt on a generator line.....
>

LinkBot