Home Repair forum - Re: Honeywell Humidicalc Recommended Instead of Outdoor Sensor?...

Author

Re: Honeywell Humidicalc Recommended Instead of Outdoor Sensor?...

nicksansouci@ece.villanova.edu

2007-06-03, 5:25 pm

Smarty <nobody@nobody.com> wrote:

>Since you think I am, to use your word, "bluffing", I will answer...
>An order of magnitude drop in water / evaporation energy consumption occurs
>when a corresponding order of magnitude drop in air leak takes place (from
>224 to 24)...

Wrong problem :-) I asked:

but Smarty talks about airsealing WITH humidification, which isn't needed,
given enough airsealing and natural indoor humidity sources like people
and green plants, but let's solve the problems he poses...
[color=darkred]
>For 70% indoor temp and 30% indoor humidity, you avoid evaporating about
>.09 gallons of water per day with the correspondingly tiny drop in energy
>consumption.

Smarty measures temperatures as percentages? :-) On my planet, 70 F air
at 30% RH has a humidity ratio wi = 0.0047 pounds of water per pound of
dry air, so keeping a 224 cfm house 70 F at 30% with an outdoor humidity
ratio wo = 0.0025 requires evaporating 224x60x0.075(wi-wo) = 2.22 pounds
of water per hour or 53.2 pounds of water per day, ie 6.39 gallons.

A 24 cfm house requires 0.68 gallons per day, and the difference is
5.71 gallons, at an energy cost of 47.5K Btu/day, about 0.5 therms,
or $1/day at $2/therm.

>Conversely, if you wanted to raise it to 50% humidity inside, you need more
>water / energy, the amount of which is again determined by what initial
>indoor temperature and humidity you specify... I used 70% and 30% once
>again, and, on this basis, see an >ncrease of .15 gals of water to be
>evaporated per day...

So Smarty is perfectly capable of providing different wrong answers
for the same 70F/30% problem :-)

>... Enough of your nonsense!
>
>*****Plonk*****

When a man is wrong and he won't admit it, he always becomes angry :-)

Nick

poster3814

2007-06-13, 9:25 am

nicksansouci@ece.villanova.edu wrote:
> Smarty <nobody@nobody.com> wrote:
>
>
> Wrong problem :-) I asked:
>
>
> but Smarty talks about airsealing WITH humidification, which isn't needed,
> given enough airsealing and natural indoor humidity sources like people
> and green plants, but let's solve the problems he poses...
>
>
> Smarty measures temperatures as percentages? :-) On my planet, 70 F air
> at 30% RH has a humidity ratio wi = 0.0047 pounds of water per pound of
> dry air, so keeping a 224 cfm house 70 F at 30% with an outdoor humidity
> ratio wo = 0.0025 requires evaporating 224x60x0.075(wi-wo) = 2.22 pounds
> of water per hour or 53.2 pounds of water per day, ie 6.39 gallons.
>
> A 24 cfm house requires 0.68 gallons per day, and the difference is
> 5.71 gallons, at an energy cost of 47.5K Btu/day, about 0.5 therms,
> or $1/day at $2/therm.
>
>
> So Smarty is perfectly capable of providing different wrong answers
> for the same 70F/30% problem :-)
>
>
> When a man is wrong and he won't admit it, he always becomes angry :-)
>
> Nick
>

Thanks again for the replies. For what it's worth, I'm going to start a
new message thread that is somewhat related but not totally related.
--
Please respond to the newsgroup only. Email sent to this account goes
unread.

Smarty

2007-06-13, 5:25 pm

poster3814,

Your reply to the numerous comments from me and others never indicated any
opinions or conclusions on your part as to which of the humidistat
approaches you prefer. As I imagine you are aware, both the Aprilaire and
the Honeywell humidifiers can be used with other humidistats, and in fact
the Aprilaire humidifier could be used with the Honeywell humidistat or vice
versa. I bring this up because you may not be aware of this based on your
more recent thread, once again comparing Aprilaire to Honeywell.

In an earlier reply I did indeed make a mistake, and erroneously typed a
percent sign % when I intended to type a notation for degrees °. I think it
was still apparent that my references to temperature and humidity of 70 and
30 respectively were pretty obvious despite the typo. Sorry for the wrong
keystroke.

Smarty

"poster3814" <poster3814@domain.invalid> wrote in message
news:ebQbi.3820$tb6.2921@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> nicksansouci@ece.villanova.edu wrote:
>
> Thanks again for the replies. For what it's worth, I'm going to start a
> new message thread that is somewhat related but not totally related.
> --
> Please respond to the newsgroup only. Email sent to this account goes
> unread.

nicksanshonte@ece.villanova.edu

2007-06-13, 5:25 pm

Smarty <nobody@nobody.com> wrote:

>In an earlier reply I did indeed make a mistake, and erroneously typed a
>percent sign % when I intended to type a notation for degrees °.

Let's not forget your 100x6.39/0.09 = 7100% computational error :-)
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]

Nick

Smarty

2007-06-14, 3:25 am

trader4,

Your kind comments are very much appreciated. Because I am a retired
engineer and have worked with literally thousands of other engineers in my
career since the 1960's, I do especially dislike a simple technical matter
becoming complicated when it doesn't need to be, and a specific technical
question being answered with an unresearched and inappropriate answer. The
fellow at Villanova U. was asked about comparing humidistats, and replied
with clearly wrong information on a distantly related subject, and then
assumed the Honeywell could somehow magically infer outdoor temperature by
being mounted on an external wall even though it is clearly a cold air
return plenum mounted device with no physical proximity whatsoever to the
periphery of the house.

It doesn't take an engineering degree to know or use the equations he
mis-applies, and either psychometric charts or simple
spreadsheet/calculators are used by ASHRAE heating/cooling consultants and
contractors all the time to size these equipments.

I actually think the gentleman at MIT said it best when he corrected Nick at
Villanova by saying:

"Very wrong analysis. 312K Btu/day would evaporate almost 40 gallons of
water
per day (~8000 BTU/gallon). This is many times more than really evaporated.
Savings are much smaller."

I apologized once before to this newsgroup for the digression and confusion
which arose, and do so once again now. I sincerely hope we can get the
original poster to be both well informed and fully comfortable with the
choice of a new humidifier and humidistat per his/her stated inquiries.

Smarty

<trader4@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:1181770211.875133.211220@e9g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
On Jun 13, 4:43 pm, "Smarty" <nob...@nobody.com> wrote:
> poster3814,
>
> Your reply to the numerous comments from me and others never indicated any
> opinions or conclusions on your part as to which of the humidistat
> approaches you prefer. As I imagine you are aware, both the Aprilaire and
> the Honeywell humidifiers can be used with other humidistats, and in fact
> the Aprilaire humidifier could be used with the Honeywell humidistat or
> vice
> versa. I bring this up because you may not be aware of this based on your
> more recent thread, once again comparing Aprilaire to Honeywell.
>
> In an earlier reply I did indeed make a mistake, and erroneously typed a
> percent sign % when I intended to type a notation for degrees °. I think
> it
> was still apparent that my references to temperature and humidity of 70
> and
> 30 respectively were pretty obvious despite the typo. Sorry for the wrong
> keystroke.
>
> Smarty
>
> "poster3814" <poster3...@domain.invalid> wrote in message
>
> news:ebQbi.3820$tb6.2921@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> - Show quoted text -

Heh, Smarty, just a side note. I didn't see your interchange with
the genius from Villanova until today. Just wanted to say, like
others here, I agree with you. He's well known for hijacking
threads. Someone asks a simple, practical, real world question and he
answers with equations and calcs trying to show how smart he is. But
in reality, all he shows is that he has a complete lack of practical
experience. He thinks because he has an equation, means it's
applicable to the question or that someone can re-engineer a 50 year
old house. The reality is, he couldn't even install a humidifier and
just gives V a bad reputation.

Smarty

2007-06-14, 3:25 am

psychrometric replaced by my spell checker with psychometric...sorry

"Smarty" <nobody@nobody.com> wrote in message
news:lISdnbCFCdgDX-3bnZ2dnUVZ_r6vnZ2d@adelphia.com...
> trader4,
>
> Your kind comments are very much appreciated. Because I am a retired
> engineer and have worked with literally thousands of other engineers in my
> career since the 1960's, I do especially dislike a simple technical matter
> becoming complicated when it doesn't need to be, and a specific technical
> question being answered with an unresearched and inappropriate answer. The
> fellow at Villanova U. was asked about comparing humidistats, and replied
> with clearly wrong information on a distantly related subject, and then
> assumed the Honeywell could somehow magically infer outdoor temperature by
> being mounted on an external wall even though it is clearly a cold air
> return plenum mounted device with no physical proximity whatsoever to the
> periphery of the house.
>
> It doesn't take an engineering degree to know or use the equations he
> mis-applies, and either psychometric charts or simple
> spreadsheet/calculators are used by ASHRAE heating/cooling consultants and
> contractors all the time to size these equipments.
>
> I actually think the gentleman at MIT said it best when he corrected Nick
> at Villanova by saying:
>
> "Very wrong analysis. 312K Btu/day would evaporate almost 40 gallons of
> water
> per day (~8000 BTU/gallon). This is many times more than really
> evaporated.
> Savings are much smaller."
>
> I apologized once before to this newsgroup for the digression and
> confusion which arose, and do so once again now. I sincerely hope we can
> get the original poster to be both well informed and fully comfortable
> with the choice of a new humidifier and humidistat per his/her stated
> inquiries.
>
> Smarty
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> <trader4@optonline.net> wrote in message
> news:1181770211.875133.211220@e9g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 13, 4:43 pm, "Smarty" <nob...@nobody.com> wrote:
>
>
> Heh, Smarty, just a side note. I didn't see your interchange with
> the genius from Villanova until today. Just wanted to say, like
> others here, I agree with you. He's well known for hijacking
> threads. Someone asks a simple, practical, real world question and he
> answers with equations and calcs trying to show how smart he is. But
> in reality, all he shows is that he has a complete lack of practical
> experience. He thinks because he has an equation, means it's
> applicable to the question or that someone can re-engineer a 50 year
> old house. The reality is, he couldn't even install a humidifier and
> just gives V a bad reputation.
>
>

nicksansteeth@ece.villanova.edu

2007-06-14, 9:25 am

Smarty <nobody@nobody.com> wrote:

>It doesn't take an engineering degree to know or use the equations he
>mis-applies...

I applied. Smarty misapplied, with a 7100% error :-)

Airsealing and humidification can both raise the indoor RH, but
airsealing lowers the fuel bill and humidification raises it.

Nick, enjoying repeating obvious truths to people who won't listen.

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