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| Stormin Mormon 2007-06-11, 9:25 am |
| Three or four years ago, my church set up a summer camp retreat.
They built a mess hall, cabins, and a couple shower and toilet
buildings. Cement slab, wood frame walls. Shingled roof.
The campers are complaining that when they touch the shower
handle, they can feel an electrical tingle. The WH is propane gas
fired. The propane line (black iron) also goes to a Rheem Contour
furnace, which supplies an overhead heat duct.
I took a VOM and length of copper pipe, used that to check from
the shower handle to the drain. Got 5 volts AC. Doesn't happen
when the power is switched off for the furnace.
I traced the wiring, the furnace was only put in a year or two
ago. (Nobody complained about shocks until the new furnace was
put in.) New, shiny copper wires. I pulled the wire nuts on the
neutral and ground. The wires are clean, adequately stripped
back, and the wire nuts get a good "bite". The panel box, like
the rest of the building is only two or three years old, and nice
and new.
The WH has dielectric thread connections at the top, I can see
the red plastic at the fitting. From what I can tell, the water
main coming out of the ground is plastic.
The questions are:
1) Why would a brand new furnace be leaking power? And how's it
getting into the shower? The only other electrical devices in the
building are lights, and a couple electric sockets.
2) Why isn't the power going out the neutral and ground?
3) How to safely take care of the problem so the campers aren't
being shocked?
My thoughts at the moment, are that the neutral / ground has some
corrosion or resistance past the panel. Meaning outside the
building. And that the solution is to run a new ground wire out
the wall, and sink a ground stake right outside the wall with the
panel box. Any other thoughts of how to handle this shocking
problem?
--
Christopher A. Young
You can't shout down a troll.
You have to starve them.
..
| |
|
| Stormin Mormon wrote:
....
> They built a mess hall, cabins, and a couple shower and toilet
> buildings. Cement slab, wood frame walls. Shingled roof.
>
> The campers are complaining that when they touch the shower
> handle, they can feel an electrical tingle. The WH is propane gas
> fired. The propane line (black iron) also goes to a Rheem Contour
> furnace, which supplies an overhead heat duct.
>
> I took a VOM and length of copper pipe, used that to check from
> the shower handle to the drain. Got 5 volts AC. Doesn't happen
> when the power is switched off for the furnace.
>
> I traced the wiring, the furnace was only put in a year or two
> ago. (Nobody complained about shocks until the new furnace was
> put in.) New, shiny copper wires. I pulled the wire nuts on the
> neutral and ground. The wires are clean, adequately stripped
> back, and the wire nuts get a good "bite". The panel box, like
> the rest of the building is only two or three years old, and nice
> and new.
>
> The WH has dielectric thread connections at the top, I can see
> the red plastic at the fitting. From what I can tell, the water
> main coming out of the ground is plastic.
>
> The questions are:
>
> 1) Why would a brand new furnace be leaking power? And how's it
> getting into the shower? The only other electrical devices in the
> building are lights, and a couple electric sockets.
>
> 2) Why isn't the power going out the neutral and ground?
>
> 3) How to safely take care of the problem so the campers aren't
> being shocked?
>
> My thoughts at the moment, are that the neutral / ground has some
> corrosion or resistance past the panel. Meaning outside the
> building. And that the solution is to run a new ground wire out
> the wall, and sink a ground stake right outside the wall with the
> panel box. Any other thoughts of how to handle this shocking
> problem?
You have, almost certainly, a grounding issue. My first thought w/
separate buildings an auxiliary ground is inadequate/missing, but with
only a general description not possible to tell much specific.
Need to know how the power is distributed and where the ground(s) are.
I'd be a little concerned that your measurement of the voltage is an
underestimate from the technique to reach so I'd treat this as a
potentially (pun not intended) serious issue. Probably adding a ground
directly at the shower head as a temporary pallative would help. Surely
there's a good electrician-type in the church that
can help diagnose this? Distributed system grounds can be very
difficult to trace and a pro should be able to recognize where there's a
problem if a needed ground is missing.
--
| |
|
| On Jun 11, 10:18 am, "Stormin Mormon"
<cayoung61**spambloc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Three or four years ago, my church set up a summer camp retreat.
> They built a mess hall, cabins, and a couple shower and toilet
> buildings. Cement slab, wood frame walls. Shingled roof.
>
> The campers are complaining that when they touch the shower
> handle, they can feel an electrical tingle. The WH is propane gas
> fired. The propane line (black iron) also goes to a Rheem Contour
> furnace, which supplies an overhead heat duct.
>
> I took a VOM and length of copper pipe, used that to check from
> the shower handle to the drain. Got 5 volts AC. Doesn't happen
> when the power is switched off for the furnace.
>
> I traced the wiring, the furnace was only put in a year or two
> ago. (Nobody complained about shocks until the new furnace was
> put in.) New, shiny copper wires. I pulled the wire nuts on the
> neutral and ground. The wires are clean, adequately stripped
> back, and the wire nuts get a good "bite". The panel box, like
> the rest of the building is only two or three years old, and nice
> and new.
>
> The WH has dielectric thread connections at the top, I can see
> the red plastic at the fitting. From what I can tell, the water
> main coming out of the ground is plastic.
>
> The questions are:
>
> 1) Why would a brand new furnace be leaking power? And how's it
> getting into the shower? The only other electrical devices in the
> building are lights, and a couple electric sockets.
>
> 2) Why isn't the power going out the neutral and ground?
>
> 3) How to safely take care of the problem so the campers aren't
> being shocked?
>
> My thoughts at the moment, are that the neutral / ground has some
> corrosion or resistance past the panel. Meaning outside the
> building. And that the solution is to run a new ground wire out
> the wall, and sink a ground stake right outside the wall with the
> panel box. Any other thoughts of how to handle this shocking
> problem?
>
> --
>
> Christopher A. Young
> You can't shout down a troll.
> You have to starve them.
> .
I agree with dpb that it sounds like a ground problem. When they put
in the new furnace they probably disconnected something. Drive a rod
into the ground and ground to that until you can get it fixed.
The good news -- the kids will take fast showers.
| |
| gfretwell@aol.com 2007-06-11, 1:25 pm |
| On Mon, 11 Jun 2007 10:18:13 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"
<cayoung61**spamblock##@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Three or four years ago, my church set up a summer camp retreat.
>They built a mess hall, cabins, and a couple shower and toilet
>buildings. Cement slab, wood frame walls. Shingled roof.
>
>The campers are complaining that when they touch the shower
>handle, they can feel an electrical tingle. The WH is propane gas
>fired. The propane line (black iron) also goes to a Rheem Contour
>furnace, which supplies an overhead heat duct.
>
>I took a VOM and length of copper pipe, used that to check from
>the shower handle to the drain. Got 5 volts AC. Doesn't happen
>when the power is switched off for the furnace.
>
>I traced the wiring, the furnace was only put in a year or two
>ago. (Nobody complained about shocks until the new furnace was
>put in.) New, shiny copper wires. I pulled the wire nuts on the
>neutral and ground. The wires are clean, adequately stripped
>back, and the wire nuts get a good "bite". The panel box, like
>the rest of the building is only two or three years old, and nice
>and new.
>
>The WH has dielectric thread connections at the top, I can see
>the red plastic at the fitting. From what I can tell, the water
>main coming out of the ground is plastic.
>
>The questions are:
>
>1) Why would a brand new furnace be leaking power? And how's it
>getting into the shower? The only other electrical devices in the
>building are lights, and a couple electric sockets.
>
>2) Why isn't the power going out the neutral and ground?
>
>3) How to safely take care of the problem so the campers aren't
>being shocked?
>
>My thoughts at the moment, are that the neutral / ground has some
>corrosion or resistance past the panel. Meaning outside the
>building. And that the solution is to run a new ground wire out
>the wall, and sink a ground stake right outside the wall with the
>panel box. Any other thoughts of how to handle this shocking
>problem?
You should have a ground rod preferably 2, connected to the ground bus
in the panel. You should also bond all the metal piping including a
jumper around the water heater.
| |
| Jeff Wisnia 2007-06-11, 1:25 pm |
| dpb wrote:
> Stormin Mormon wrote:
> ...
>
>
>
> You have, almost certainly, a grounding issue. My first thought w/
> separate buildings an auxiliary ground is inadequate/missing, but with
> only a general description not possible to tell much specific.
If the plumbing is accessable it'd probably be wise to bond the water
supply pipes to the shower valve to the drain pipe before letting anyone
use the shower again, then do the overall grounding job properly ASAP.
I'm no lawyer, and never even played one on TV, but since you've told
the world about your knowing about this problem in a format which will
take forever to disappear, you'd best be carefull lest someone slips in
the shower, breaks their spinal column and then decides to go after the
cchurch for all it's worth, claiming that "the shock" made them jerk and
fall.
Jeff
--
Jeffry Wisnia
(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
The speed of light is 1.8*10^12 furlongs per fortnight.
>
> Need to know how the power is distributed and where the ground(s) are.
> I'd be a little concerned that your measurement of the voltage is an
> underestimate from the technique to reach so I'd treat this as a
> potentially (pun not intended) serious issue. Probably adding a ground
> directly at the shower head as a temporary pallative would help. Surely
> there's a good electrician-type in the church that
> can help diagnose this? Distributed system grounds can be very
> difficult to trace and a pro should be able to recognize where there's a
> problem if a needed ground is missing.
>
> --
>
| |
| BobK207 2007-06-11, 1:25 pm |
| On Jun 11, 8:02 am, dpb <n...@non.net> wrote:
> Stormin Mormon wrote:
>
> ...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> You have, almost certainly, a grounding issue. My first thought w/
> separate buildings an auxiliary ground is inadequate/missing, but with
> only a general description not possible to tell much specific.
>
> Need to know how the power is distributed and where the ground(s) are.
> I'd be a little concerned that your measurement of the voltage is an
> underestimate from the technique to reach so I'd treat this as a
> potentially (pun not intended) serious issue. Probably adding a ground
> directly at the shower head as a temporary pallative would help. Surely
> there's a good electrician-type in the church that
> can help diagnose this? Distributed system grounds can be very
> difficult to trace and a pro should be able to recognize where there's a
> problem if a needed ground is missing.
>
> --
All-
Some comments & more questions than answers.......
Sounds like he's got a grounding problem but desn't he also have a
problem in the furnace itself?
the resistance from the grounding system to the earth is too high?
& the "ground path" from the grounding system to plumbing, instead of
grounding the shower plumbing is actually "hotting it"
but isn't the real problem in the furnace? some how is the power
leaking over to furnace frame & thereby "hotting" the furnace frame &
ground?
now you've got some juice in the (inadequate?) ground system that is
trying to find it's way back to earth.......the shower plumbing & the
showerers are part of this ad hoc path.
shouldn't the fault (nsulation? wire contacting bare metal?) in the
furnace be looked into? maybe a fault in the blower motor?
Grounding is part of the issue but isn't the source of the voltage of
equal importance?
cheers
Bob
| |
|
| Pat wrote:
> On Jun 11, 10:18 am, "Stormin Mormon"
> <cayoung61**spambloc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> I agree with dpb that it sounds like a ground problem. When they put
> in the new furnace they probably disconnected something. Drive a rod
> into the ground and ground to that until you can get it fixed.
Actually, that makes me think of something should have mentioned
previously -- perhaps the new installation w/ the dielectric union on
the gas line broke a previous ground path. Jumper it w/ a ground and
see if it changes symptoms.
As for the proposed "solution", that _may_ be the right solution, but as
noted previously, w/o knowing the actual distribution what is right and
adequate isn't possible to say for sure.
One thing to be careful of in such a situation is the possibility of a
ground loop existing and having a significant potential between various
ground points. In that case it is possible to get oneself across this
w/ a possible significant current flow which obviously is a bad
deal...that's why I recommended an experienced electrician take a look
at the installation.
--
| |
| Stormin Mormon 2007-06-11, 1:25 pm |
| I'm thinking a neutral problem. If th ere was a good neutral,
then the white would carry all the wire.
I've been wondering if it would create a different effect in a
boys versus a girls shower? The one which is shocking is the
girls, and they don't like it. I can just imagine in the boys
"Kewl! Hey everyone come over and check this out!"
--
Christopher A. Young
You can't shout down a troll.
You have to starve them.
..
"Pat" <groups@artisticphotography.us> wrote in message
news:1181576470.672576.324260@n4g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
:
: I agree with dpb that it sounds like a ground problem. When
they put
: in the new furnace they probably disconnected something. Drive
a rod
: into the ground and ground to that until you can get it fixed.
:
: The good news -- the kids will take fast showers.
:
| |
| Stormin Mormon 2007-06-11, 1:25 pm |
| I was thinking also a jumper from hot to cold pipes at the
shower. The dielectric connection reduces corrosion. But it
doesn't drain power through the cold water inlet.
--
Christopher A. Young
You can't shout down a troll.
You have to starve them.
..
<gfretwell@aol.com> wrote in message
news:scrq639ofqig03rij7d61brkgr32n6isjl@4ax.com...
:
: You should have a ground rod preferably 2, connected to the
ground bus
: in the panel. You should also bond all the metal piping
including a
: jumper around the water heater.
| |
| Stormin Mormon 2007-06-11, 1:25 pm |
| Water supply bonded to drain, I did think of that. I'll have to
go back and see if the pipes are accessable. My guess is probably
not.
--
Christopher A. Young
You can't shout down a troll.
You have to starve them.
..
"Jeff Wisnia" <jwisnia@conversent.net> wrote in message
news:136qu2echonlhb5@corp.supernews.com...
:
: If the plumbing is accessable it'd probably be wise to bond the
water
: supply pipes to the shower valve to the drain pipe before
letting anyone
: use the shower again, then do the overall grounding job
properly ASAP.
:
: I'm no lawyer, and never even played one on TV, but since
you've told
: the world about your knowing about this problem in a format
which will
: take forever to disappear, you'd best be carefull lest someone
slips in
: the shower, breaks their spinal column and then decides to go
after the
: cchurch for all it's worth, claiming that "the shock" made them
jerk and
: fall.
:
: Jeff
: --
| |
| Stormin Mormon 2007-06-11, 1:25 pm |
| The shower building is fairly remote, not that makes a whopping
lot of difference. A bad neutral can happen even in apartment
building.
--
Christopher A. Young
You can't shout down a troll.
You have to starve them.
..
: dpb wrote:
:
: > You have, almost certainly, a grounding issue. My first
thought w/
: > separate buildings an auxiliary ground is inadequate/missing,
but with
: > only a general description not possible to tell much
specific.
:
| |
| Wayne Whitney 2007-06-11, 1:25 pm |
| On 2007-06-11, BobK207 <rkazanjy@gmail.com> wrote:
> Sounds like he's got a grounding problem but desn't he also have a
> problem in the furnace itself?
There's definitely a problem in the furnace or the circuit feeding it.
> now you've got some juice in the (inadequate?) ground system that is
> trying to find it's way back to earth.......
Slight clarification: the juice is trying to find its way back to the
secondary winding of the transformer powering the service. Because of
a fault, the normal return path using the neutral conductors is now
paralleled by a path involving the shower plumbing and probably the
earth. Because of some problem with the EGC (equipment grounding
conductor) system, the fault did not hit the desired "low-impedance
return path" to the service which would trip the breaker. Return
paths using the earth will almost never be low enough impedance to
trip a breaker.
Cheers, Wayne
| |
| Toller 2007-06-11, 1:25 pm |
|
"Stormin Mormon" <cayoung61**spamblock##@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:466d59ce$0$8982$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
> Three or four years ago, my church set up a summer camp retreat.
> They built a mess hall, cabins, and a couple shower and toilet
> buildings. Cement slab, wood frame walls. Shingled roof.
>
> The campers are complaining that when they touch the shower
> handle, they can feel an electrical tingle. The WH is propane gas
> fired. The propane line (black iron) also goes to a Rheem Contour
> furnace, which supplies an overhead heat duct.
>
> I took a VOM and length of copper pipe, used that to check from
> the shower handle to the drain. Got 5 volts AC. Doesn't happen
> when the power is switched off for the furnace.
>
> I traced the wiring, the furnace was only put in a year or two
> ago. (Nobody complained about shocks until the new furnace was
> put in.) New, shiny copper wires. I pulled the wire nuts on the
> neutral and ground. The wires are clean, adequately stripped
> back, and the wire nuts get a good "bite". The panel box, like
> the rest of the building is only two or three years old, and nice
> and new.
>
> The WH has dielectric thread connections at the top, I can see
> the red plastic at the fitting. From what I can tell, the water
> main coming out of the ground is plastic.
>
> The questions are:
>
> 1) Why would a brand new furnace be leaking power? And how's it
> getting into the shower? The only other electrical devices in the
> building are lights, and a couple electric sockets.
>
There could be a short from the hot or neutral, or the ground could be bad.
Could be any damned thing.
I don't think you could actually feel 5v; but perhaps there is really more
than that.
Go to the nearest outlet and test H-N, H-G, N-G. Assuming they are all
correct, test them all to the drain and to the shower handle. Then test
from the gas pipe to a ground etc. etc. until you isolate where there is
unexpected voltage.
If you plumbing is plastic, I don't see how any voltage is getting to the
shower, unless you have really really really hard water.
> 2) Why isn't the power going out the neutral and ground?
>
> 3) How to safely take care of the problem so the campers aren't
> being shocked?
>
> My thoughts at the moment, are that the neutral / ground has some
> corrosion or resistance past the panel. Meaning outside the
> building. And that the solution is to run a new ground wire out
> the wall, and sink a ground stake right outside the wall with the
> panel box. Any other thoughts of how to handle this shocking
> problem?
>
> --
>
> Christopher A. Young
> You can't shout down a troll.
> You have to starve them.
> .
>
>
| |
|
| On Mon, 11 Jun 2007 10:18:13 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"
<cayoung61**spamblock##@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Three or four years ago, my church set up a summer camp retreat.
>They built a mess hall, cabins, and a couple shower and toilet
>buildings. Cement slab, wood frame walls. Shingled roof.
>
>The campers are complaining that when they touch the shower
>handle, they can feel an electrical tingle. The WH is propane gas
>fired. The propane line (black iron) also goes to a Rheem Contour
>furnace, which supplies an overhead heat duct.
>
>I took a VOM and length of copper pipe, used that to check from
>the shower handle to the drain. Got 5 volts AC. Doesn't happen
>when the power is switched off for the furnace.
Why is the furnace on at summer camp?
Because the shower makes them cold when they get out wet? Using a
heater is no way to rough it. At summer camp there should be no heat
but what the sun provides.
I think, whether they still have a legal responsibility to fix this or
not, that the furnace company should know what a rotten job their
installer did, and that they are in the best position to fix it.
"I thought you would want to come out and fix this." "As part of your
original [uncompleted] installation". "Before some child gets hurt"
>I traced the wiring, the furnace was only put in a year or two
>ago. (Nobody complained about shocks until the new furnace was
>put in.) New, shiny copper wires. I pulled the wire nuts on the
>neutral and ground. The wires are clean, adequately stripped
>back, and the wire nuts get a good "bite". The panel box, like
>the rest of the building is only two or three years old, and nice
>and new.
>
>The WH has dielectric thread connections at the top, I can see
>the red plastic at the fitting. From what I can tell, the water
>main coming out of the ground is plastic.
>
>The questions are:
>
>1) Why would a brand new furnace be leaking power? And how's it
>getting into the shower? The only other electrical devices in the
>building are lights, and a couple electric sockets.
>
>2) Why isn't the power going out the neutral and ground?
>
>3) How to safely take care of the problem so the campers aren't
>being shocked?
>
>My thoughts at the moment, are that the neutral / ground has some
>corrosion or resistance past the panel. Meaning outside the
>building. And that the solution is to run a new ground wire out
>the wall, and sink a ground stake right outside the wall with the
>panel box. Any other thoughts of how to handle this shocking
>problem?
| |
| Zephyr 2007-06-11, 1:25 pm |
| The furnace is seeking ground through the gas piping system to the water
heater and perhaps from there to the showers.
Ground the water system with an 8 foot earth rod and the neutral buss from
the service panel. Read UEC #250.50 [Grounding Systems]. Check the neutral
at the appliance and make sure it has both, a separate load carrying neutral
and earth bond [ground.] Be sure the panel / sub -panel both are grounded
as well. Check and tighten all electrical connections, pay particularly
attention to the grounding system.
--
Zyp
"mm" <NOPSAMmm2005@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:3m0r63lrpv4ohjdqp19plrca6evo7rckqd@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 11 Jun 2007 10:18:13 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"
> <cayoung61**spamblock##@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Why is the furnace on at summer camp?
>
> Because the shower makes them cold when they get out wet? Using a
> heater is no way to rough it. At summer camp there should be no heat
> but what the sun provides.
>
> I think, whether they still have a legal responsibility to fix this or
> not, that the furnace company should know what a rotten job their
> installer did, and that they are in the best position to fix it.
>
> "I thought you would want to come out and fix this." "As part of your
> original [uncompleted] installation". "Before some child gets hurt"
>
>
| |
| tnom@mucks.net 2007-06-11, 5:25 pm |
|
>The questions are:
>
>1) Why would a brand new furnace be leaking power? And how's it
>getting into the shower? The only other electrical devices in the
>building are lights, and a couple electric sockets.
Through the air. AC at 60hz acts like a radio wave in that it can
induce a voltage in a conductor near by. Any wiring, motor or
transformer will radiate electromagnetic radio waves. The plumbing
is the antenna that is being induced.
>2) Why isn't the power going out the neutral and ground?
The felt voltage is not coming directly from the wiring.
The shower head is the hot lead of the voltage source and the wet
ground or drain is the other conductor. Electricity has to have a
path to be felt.
>3) How to safely take care of the problem so the campers aren't
>being shocked?
Short the two leads. The shower head and the floor drain.
| |
| John Grabowski 2007-06-11, 5:25 pm |
|
"Stormin Mormon" <cayoung61**spamblock##@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:466d59ce$0$8982$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
> Three or four years ago, my church set up a summer camp retreat.
> They built a mess hall, cabins, and a couple shower and toilet
> buildings. Cement slab, wood frame walls. Shingled roof.
>
> The campers are complaining that when they touch the shower
> handle, they can feel an electrical tingle. The WH is propane gas
> fired. The propane line (black iron) also goes to a Rheem Contour
> furnace, which supplies an overhead heat duct.
>
> I took a VOM and length of copper pipe, used that to check from
> the shower handle to the drain. Got 5 volts AC. Doesn't happen
> when the power is switched off for the furnace.
>
> I traced the wiring, the furnace was only put in a year or two
> ago. (Nobody complained about shocks until the new furnace was
> put in.) New, shiny copper wires. I pulled the wire nuts on the
> neutral and ground. The wires are clean, adequately stripped
> back, and the wire nuts get a good "bite". The panel box, like
> the rest of the building is only two or three years old, and nice
> and new.
>
> The WH has dielectric thread connections at the top, I can see
> the red plastic at the fitting. From what I can tell, the water
> main coming out of the ground is plastic.
>
> The questions are:
>
> 1) Why would a brand new furnace be leaking power? And how's it
> getting into the shower? The only other electrical devices in the
> building are lights, and a couple electric sockets.
>
> 2) Why isn't the power going out the neutral and ground?
>
> 3) How to safely take care of the problem so the campers aren't
> being shocked?
>
> My thoughts at the moment, are that the neutral / ground has some
> corrosion or resistance past the panel. Meaning outside the
> building. And that the solution is to run a new ground wire out
> the wall, and sink a ground stake right outside the wall with the
> panel box. Any other thoughts of how to handle this shocking
> problem?
Are the ground and the neutral separated in the new subpanel or are they
bonded together? Do you have a good grounding conductor from the subpanel
to the main panel? Is there a good ground at the main panel? By good
ground I am referring to two ground rods and a connection to the main water
line.
Any chance of getting some pictures of everything?
| |
| Stormin Mormon 2007-06-11, 8:25 pm |
| The furnace was originally installed so they would not have to
drain the pipes in the winter. We do zero F now and again, and
pipes do freeze.
From what I could see, the furnace guys did fine. I think it's
the electrician who made the run of wire to the shower building
that didn't put in adequate neutral / ground.
--
Christopher A. Young
You can't shout down a troll.
You have to starve them.
..
"mm" <NOPSAMmm2005@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:3m0r63lrpv4ohjdqp19plrca6evo7rckqd@4ax.com...
:
: Why is the furnace on at summer camp?
:
: Because the shower makes them cold when they get out wet?
Using a
: heater is no way to rough it. At summer camp there should be
no heat
: but what the sun provides.
:
: I think, whether they still have a legal responsibility to fix
this or
: not, that the furnace company should know what a rotten job
their
: installer did, and that they are in the best position to fix
it.
:
: "I thought you would want to come out and fix this." "As part
of your
: original [uncompleted] installation". "Before some child gets
hurt"
:
| |
| Stormin Mormon 2007-06-11, 8:25 pm |
| The furnace has both a neutral and a ground. I know -- I checked.
Is 8 foot the standard? I was in Home Cheepo last night, and they
do sell 8 foot ground rods. Is a shorter rod acceptable? Eight
feet sounds like a lot of sledge hammer work.
--
Christopher A. Young
You can't shout down a troll.
You have to starve them.
..
"Zephyr" <nospam@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:9_qdnaKa9voLG_DbnZ2dnUVZ_riknZ2d@championbroadband.com...
: The furnace is seeking ground through the gas piping system to
the water
: heater and perhaps from there to the showers.
:
: Ground the water system with an 8 foot earth rod and the
neutral buss from
: the service panel. Read UEC #250.50 [Grounding Systems].
Check the neutral
: at the appliance and make sure it has both, a separate load
carrying neutral
: and earth bond [ground.] Be sure the panel / sub -panel both
are grounded
: as well. Check and tighten all electrical connections, pay
particularly
: attention to the grounding system.
:
: --
: Zyp
:
| |
| Stormin Mormon 2007-06-11, 8:25 pm |
| "John Grabowski" <jgrabows1@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:JDjbi.14$2U4.7@newsfe12.lga...
:
:
:
: Are the ground and the neutral separated in the new subpanel or
are they
: bonded together?
CY: The grounds and neutrals go to different bars. Beyond that I
don't know.
Do you have a good grounding conductor from the subpanel
: to the main panel?
CY: There is a conductor. But the fellow who runs the camp didn't
seem at all pleased with the electrician. So, it may not be good.
Is there a good ground at the main panel? By good
: ground I am referring to two ground rods and a connection to
the main water
: line.
CY: The panel in the shower building has no signs of ground. The
wire goes out to a cement box, which sits maybe 6 feet from the
building. I see no connection from the panel to the water line.
:
: Any chance of getting some pictures of everything?
:
CY: That is a very wise question. I don't have a digital camera,
but been considering getting one.
| |
| Norminn 2007-06-11, 9:25 pm |
| Stormin Mormon wrote:
> Three or four years ago, my church set up a summer camp retreat.
> They built a mess hall, cabins, and a couple shower and toilet
> buildings. Cement slab, wood frame walls. Shingled roof.
>
> The campers are complaining that when they touch the shower
> handle, they can feel an electrical tingle. The WH is propane gas
> fired. The propane line (black iron) also goes to a Rheem Contour
> furnace, which supplies an overhead heat duct.
This is an interesting thread, although I don't know more than the very
basics of what is being discussed....but.....I can understand consulting
other DIYers if the writer was the only person being affected. So, a
bunch of campers are getting mild electrical shocks and you are diddling
about what to do or not to do? You have to be nuts! If there is any
possibility that there is a loose or crossed connection that could
vibrate or expand and make full contact, then what? Save $200 and
electrocute a kid? I will send $10 to the OP to help cover the cost of
a licensed electrician.
| |
|
| On Mon, 11 Jun 2007 21:06:16 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"
<cayoung61**spamblock##@hotmail.com> wrote:
>The furnace was originally installed so they would not have to
>drain the pipes in the winter. We do zero F now and again, and
>pipes do freeze.
>
>From what I could see, the furnace guys did fine. I think it's
>the electrician who made the run of wire to the shower building
>that didn't put in adequate neutral / ground.
I'd call him then, and say the same sort of thing. So that he wants
to come out at no charge and fix the mess he left. You're not using
the furnace now so he's bound to be nearby sometime in the next month,
and it will take him 10 minutes.
| |
| Wayne Whitney 2007-06-12, 3:25 am |
| On 2007-06-11, Stormin Mormon <cayoung61**spamblock##@hotmail.com> wrote:
> 1) Why would a brand new furnace be leaking power?
Good question. Note that in order for someone to be shocked as
described, there must be a double fault. That is, a live conductor
must be energizing some metal parts, which are themselves not properly
bonded. If you ensure that all the metal parts (hot and cold water
pipe, gas pipe, furnace frame) are properly bonded to the EGC in the
building service, then a fault in the furnace should trip the breaker.
> 2) Why isn't the power going out the neutral and ground?
If there is a return path that parallels the proper neutral path, some
current will always flow on it. So a person will get a mild shock
when standing on the shower floor and touching the plumbing because
they complete a circuit, one that is fairly high resistance compared
to the "usual" return path.
> And that the solution is to run a new ground wire out the wall, and
> sink a ground stake right outside the wall with the panel box.
This in and of itself will not help you, and under bizarre
circumstances it could make the problem worse. You having a bonding
problem, not an earthing problem. Earthing provides protection in the
case of overvoltage; bonding provides protection in the case of
accidentally energizing metal parts.
Cheers, Wayne
| |
| John Grabowski 2007-06-12, 9:25 am |
|
"Stormin Mormon" <cayoung61**spamblock##@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:466df39b$0$20568$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
> "John Grabowski" <jgrabows1@optonline.net> wrote in message
> news:JDjbi.14$2U4.7@newsfe12.lga...
> :
> :
> :
> : Are the ground and the neutral separated in the new subpanel or
> are they
> : bonded together?
>
> CY: The grounds and neutrals go to different bars. Beyond that I
> don't know.
>
> Do you have a good grounding conductor from the subpanel
> : to the main panel?
>
> CY: There is a conductor. But the fellow who runs the camp didn't
> seem at all pleased with the electrician. So, it may not be good.
>
> Is there a good ground at the main panel? By good
> : ground I am referring to two ground rods and a connection to
> the main water
> : line.
>
> CY: The panel in the shower building has no signs of ground. The
> wire goes out to a cement box, which sits maybe 6 feet from the
> building. I see no connection from the panel to the water line.
>
> :
> : Any chance of getting some pictures of everything?
> :
>
> CY: That is a very wise question. I don't have a digital camera,
> but been considering getting one.
I'm thinking that you need to get an experienced electrician to look over
the electrical system. There is obviously a hazard to human life. This is
not a situation for a do-it-yourselfer to play around with. You need to
make things right and soon! Get a professional electrician now! What ever
the cost it is still cheaper than a human life.
| |
| Stormin Mormon 2007-06-12, 9:25 am |
| I'm the OP. The building was wired by a licensed electrician, and
the furnace was installed by a business. So, anything I do has to
be better than that.
--
Christopher A. Young
You can't shout down a troll.
You have to starve them.
..
"Norminn" <norminn@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:G9nbi.19511$Ut6.10674@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
:
: This is an interesting thread, although I don't know more than
the very
: basics of what is being discussed....but.....I can understand
consulting
: other DIYers if the writer was the only person being affected.
So, a
: bunch of campers are getting mild electrical shocks and you are
diddling
: about what to do or not to do? You have to be nuts! If there
is any
: possibility that there is a loose or crossed connection that
could
: vibrate or expand and make full contact, then what? Save $200
and
: electrocute a kid? I will send $10 to the OP to help cover the
cost of
: a licensed electrician.
| |
| trader4@optonline.net 2007-06-12, 9:25 am |
| On Jun 11, 4:30 pm, t...@mucks.net wrote:
>
>
> Through the air. AC at 60hz acts like a radio wave in that it can
> induce a voltage in a conductor near by. Any wiring, motor or
> transformer will radiate electromagnetic radio waves. The plumbing
> is the antenna that is being induced.
Yes, and of the billions of homes, office, business, etc buildings,
this one is the only one where this induced AC electromagnetic effect
through the air is occuring. And it's coming through the air from the
furnace to the bathroom shower? LOL
This is definitely a grounding problem of some kind. We don't even
know what the grounding arrangement is, whether it was done correctly,
or whether some grounding path has been interrupted. That's where
I'd be looking, not at EMI.
>
>
> The felt voltage is not coming directly from the wiring.
>
> The shower head is the hot lead of the voltage source and the wet
> ground or drain is the other conductor. Electricity has to have a
> path to be felt.
>
>
> Short the two leads. The shower head and the floor drain.
Yes, and of the billions of homes and businesses buildings, this one
is the only one where this induced AC electromagnetic effect is
occuring.
| |
| trader4@optonline.net 2007-06-12, 9:25 am |
| On Jun 12, 8:18 am, "Stormin Mormon"
<cayoung61**spambloc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I'm the OP. The building was wired by a licensed electrician, and
> the furnace was installed by a business. So, anything I do has to
> be better than that.
>
> --
I hope you're joking here. Norminn has a very valid point. I'm an
electrical engineer and I would not self diagnose and fix this. What
I would do is close that shower, leave the furnace off, make everyone
that should know aware of it and get a licensed electrician out there
ASAP. There is the very real possibility that something very bad
could occur and if it does, the liability here is extremely high.
And if you fool around and try to fix it, that liability could extend
for years. Say 3 years from now, something changed or got worse and
then someone got electrocuted in that shower. Or even in that
building. Don't you think someone is gonna say, "gee, I remember
Stormin was working on it...." And then, even if you did nothing
wrong, you could be ruined.
If you want to do something, make a donation to the church to pay for
the licensed electrician.
>
> Christopher A. Young
> You can't shout down a troll.
> You have to starve them.
> .
>
> "Norminn" <norm...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>
> news:G9nbi.19511$Ut6.10674@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> :
> : This is an interesting thread, although I don't know more than
> the very
> : basics of what is being discussed....but.....I can understand
> consulting
> : other DIYers if the writer was the only person being affected.
> So, a
> : bunch of campers are getting mild electrical shocks and you are
> diddling
> : about what to do or not to do? You have to be nuts! If there
> is any
> : possibility that there is a loose or crossed connection that
> could
> : vibrate or expand and make full contact, then what? Save $200
> and
> : electrocute a kid? I will send $10 to the OP to help cover the
> cost of
> : a licensed electrician.
| |
|
| Stormin Mormon wrote:
> I'm the OP. The building was wired by a licensed electrician, and
> the furnace was installed by a business. So, anything I do has to
> be better than that.
Since this is the church camp, I think you have an obligation to do this
right and immediately also. Which is why I suggested that _surely_
there's an experienced electrician in the congregation. I certainly
disagree with the last sentence and think you're opening yourself and
your church to a serious potential liability problem.
imo, etc., ...
--
| |
| T8EPLO96@noemail.com 2007-06-12, 1:25 pm |
| On Mon, 11 Jun 2007 16:40:39 -0000, BobK207 <rkazanjy@gmail.com>
wrote:
>On Jun 11, 8:02 am, dpb <n...@non.net> wrote:
>
>
>All-
>
>Some comments & more questions than answers.......
>
>
>Sounds like he's got a grounding problem but desn't he also have a
>problem in the furnace itself?
>
> the resistance from the grounding system to the earth is too high?
>
>& the "ground path" from the grounding system to plumbing, instead of
>grounding the shower plumbing is actually "hotting it"
>
>but isn't the real problem in the furnace? some how is the power
>leaking over to furnace frame & thereby "hotting" the furnace frame &
>ground?
>
>now you've got some juice in the (inadequate?) ground system that is
>trying to find it's way back to earth.......the shower plumbing & the
>showerers are part of this ad hoc path.
>
>shouldn't the fault (nsulation? wire contacting bare metal?) in the
>furnace be looked into? maybe a fault in the blower motor?
>
>Grounding is part of the issue but isn't the source of the voltage of
>equal importance?
>
>
>cheers
>Bob
The first thing he should do is completely disconnect the furnace.
The switch shuts off the HOT. But open the box and disconnect the
neutral too. Then see if you get a shock or voltage reading. If not,
there is an electrical leak, bad motor or something else. If there is
still voltage in the shower, the problem is not the furnace.
You did not mention what kind of pipe feeds that shower. Is it
copper, steel or pvc or some other plastic? If it's copper, or steel
ground the pipes to a good ground. If its a type of plastic, some
wire has to be touching the shower valve. It could be someone
punctured a romex cable with a nail and it's leaking into something
metal touching the shower valves.
On the other hand, it could be the drain that is getting the voltage.
I dont think anyone uses metalic pipe for drainage these days. Thus,
with pvc pipes, the voltage it leaking into the drain, or the tub
itself if it's a metal tub.
Here's another test. Shut off the MAINS in thge breaker box. Do you
still get a shock? If not, turn on the mains and turn off each
breaker one by one till you find the one that kills the shock. Trace
that entire circuit. I'd guess it does to that bathroom.
Of course, since this is a church project, it could be that the man
upstairs is just having a little fun, or maybe he needs more people in
heaven. So, if all else fails, blame God.
T8EPLO96
| |
| T8EPLO96@noemail.com 2007-06-12, 1:25 pm |
| On Mon, 11 Jun 2007 21:09:08 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"
<cayoung61**spamblock##@hotmail.com> wrote:
>The furnace has both a neutral and a ground. I know -- I checked.
>Is 8 foot the standard? I was in Home Cheepo last night, and they
>do sell 8 foot ground rods. Is a shorter rod acceptable? Eight
>feet sounds like a lot of sledge hammer work.
Sledge hammering a ground rod above your head is a great way to get
hurt. I've done it. After that I learned that they make T-post
drivers. Much safer and easier. You only need the hammer for the
last 18 inches or so. Yes, you really should use an 8 footer. Shorter
ones are for tv antennas, electric fence grounds, and other oddball
stuff.
| |
|
| John Grabowski wrote:
> "Stormin Mormon" <cayoung61**spamblock##@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:466df39b$0$20568$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
The neutral bar should be insulated from the box. It is possible there
is a bonding jumper from the neutral bar to the box. Sometimes a very
visible strap. Sometimes a very non-obvious screw - usually green.
[color=darkred]
Not obvious if you are saying there is no grounding electrode at the
shower building. It is code required. Rods are notoriously poor, but the
easiest if an electrode is not now present. Code is 8' (as someone said)
and 2 are usually installed.
A slight possibility - if you have no grounding electrode and have a
neutral-ground bond in the panel, the shower ground wires would lift
from earth potential. Adding a furnace could provide a path from the
shower ground wires to the shower valve.
Earth potential is not as fixed as is commonly assumed either, though a
remote church camp one wouldn't expect much variation.
Around swimming pools (and buildings for animals on farms) the floor and
accessible metal are all bonded. The equivalent would be connecting to
the reinforcing mesh in the concrete floor when constructed and bonding
to the valve, shower head, ...
Bond everything and make sure you have a connection to the earth at the
remote shower (as someone else said).
Also not established - separate shower buildings for girls and boys?
Could explain why girls get shocks, not boys. As a temporary fix you
could have the girls shower with the boys.
[color=darkred]
>
> I'm thinking that you need to get an experienced electrician to look over
> the electrical system. There is obviously a hazard to human life. This is
> not a situation for a do-it-yourselfer to play around with. You need to
> make things right and soon! Get a professional electrician now! What ever
> the cost it is still cheaper than a human life.
>
A competent electrician sounds like a real good idea.
--
bud--
| |
| Doug Miller 2007-06-12, 1:25 pm |
| In article <7caf9$466ec99f$4213eb8f$7546@DIALUPUSA.NET>, Bud-- <remove.BudNews@isp.com> wrote:
>John Grabowski wrote:
[color=darkred]
>
>The neutral bar should be insulated from the box. It is possible there
>is a bonding jumper from the neutral bar to the box. Sometimes a very
>visible strap. Sometimes a very non-obvious screw - usually green.
And that could do it, too -- leaving that screw in, I mean, when it should
have been removed.
[...]
>
>Not obvious if you are saying there is no grounding electrode at the
>shower building. It is code required. Rods are notoriously poor, but the
>easiest if an electrode is not now present. Code is 8' (as someone said)
>and 2 are usually installed.
Actually, Code is 8' or to the depth of permanent soil moisture, whichever is
deeper. [Article 250.53(A)]
>
>A slight possibility - if you have no grounding electrode and have a
>neutral-ground bond in the panel, the shower ground wires would lift
>from earth potential. Adding a furnace could provide a path from the
>shower ground wires to the shower valve.
True, but not by itself sufficient to cause the observed problem. Apparently
the water pipes in the shower building are not properly grounded either. Code
requires metal water piping to be bonded to the electrical grounding system,
to ensure that there won't be any potential difference between the water pipes
and ground.
[...]
>Also not established - separate shower buildings for girls and boys?
>Could explain why girls get shocks, not boys. As a temporary fix you
>could have the girls shower with the boys.
Even more shocking. <g>
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.
| |
| Norminn 2007-06-12, 1:25 pm |
| Stormin Mormon wrote:
> I'm the OP. The building was wired by a licensed electrician, and
> the furnace was installed by a business. So, anything I do has to
> be better than that.
>
But you have no license, and altering the work done by the furnace co.
might be bad for warranty issues, etc. I appreciate the loss of
confidence in the contractor, but that is where I would go first. Call
the owner of the company and tell him your campers are getting
electrical shocks. Bet it gets his attention. I'm am all for DIYers
trouble-shooting leaky pipes, missing shingles, busted windows, but when
there is an issue of potential danger to the public - people with no
reason to expect a hazard, and much worse if they are children - then
the duty to remove the hazard is much greater. My kids roughed it at
camp, at a tender age - bugs, heat, cold, long walks in the dark to the
outhouse, poison ivy, etc. - but if they called and told me they got
electrical shocks in the shower, I'd be there pronto to take them home.
Since you don't know the problem, you have no way of predicting what
might happen. Loose wire that vibrates enough to make more complete
contact and electrocute somebody? IMO, that is an urgent matter.
| |
|
| Norminn wrote:
> Stormin Mormon wrote:
>
....
> Since you don't know the problem, you have no way of predicting what
> might happen. Loose wire that vibrates enough to make more complete
> contact and electrocute somebody? IMO, that is an urgent matter.
All of the above and more...
Not shutting the power off or blocking the use of the shower until this
is solved and known to have been solved correctly is foolhardy and
irresponsible.
As a Trustee of our church, if we had such a situation and a responsible
camp director who didn't take _immediate_ action to protect the safety
of the the campers and correct the problem, that person would be
strongly admonished for their inaction to the point of dismissal.
This is a situation that is NOT the same as futzing around in one's own
house -- one has the obligation and duty to ensure the kids are as safe
as can possibly be.
A youngster drowned in a Y day camp near here the first day of the
season this spring -- needless to say, that organization is going
through hell just now and will be for the foreseeable future. While
probably not a high probability of serious injury or death from this as
described, it's a risk that simply should not be taken as it would, in
retrospect, be VERY hard to explain to both law and insurance
investigators why such a situation was allowed to continue when it was
known to exist if something were to happen.
--
--
| |
| trader4@optonline.net 2007-06-12, 5:25 pm |
| On Jun 12, 1:14 am, Wayne Whitney <whit...@post.harvard.edu> wrote:
> On 2007-06-11, Stormin Mormon <cayoung61**spambloc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Good question. Note that in order for someone to be shocked as
> described, there must be a double fault. That is, a live conductor
> must be energizing some metal parts, which are themselves not properly
> bonded. If you ensure that all the metal parts (hot and cold water
> pipe, gas pipe, furnace frame) are properly bonded to the EGC in the
> building service, then a fault in the furnace should trip the breaker.
>
>
> If there is a return path that parallels the proper neutral path, some
> current will always flow on it. So a person will get a mild shock
> when standing on the shower floor and touching the plumbing because
> they complete a circuit, one that is fairly high resistance compared
> to the "usual" return path.
>
>
> This in and of itself will not help you, and under bizarre
> circumstances it could make the problem worse. You having a bonding
> problem, not an earthing problem. Earthing provides protection in the
> case of overvoltage; bonding provides protection in the case of
> accidentally energizing metal parts.
>
> Cheers, Wayne
Bonding without proper grounding can still get you killed. You could
have all the nearby metal parts bonded together, but without a proper
earth ground the metal could all be at an entirely different
potential.
Take for example a spa. Code says all the metal components must be
bonded together. And for good reason. You don't want the possibility
of one piece of metal that you could touch to be at a different
potential than another that you could contact. However, if there is
not a proper earth ground back at the service panel to which the spa
is grounded, then you could step out of the spa and complete a path
between the bonded parts of the spa and the earth, which could be at
different potential.
| |
| tnom@mucks.net 2007-06-12, 5:25 pm |
| On Tue, 12 Jun 2007 05:43:45 -0700, trader4@optonline.net wrote:
>On Jun 11, 4:30 pm, t...@mucks.net wrote:
>
>Yes, and of the billions of homes, office, business, etc buildings,
>this one is the only one where this induced AC electromagnetic effect
>through the air is occuring. And it's coming through the air from the
>furnace to the bathroom shower? LOL
It depends.
If the exposed shower plumbing is large and not grounded properly.
If a person gets wet and increases their contact surface area and thus
their conductivity.
>This is definitely a grounding problem of some kind. We don't even
>know what the grounding arrangement is, whether it was done correctly,
>or whether some grounding path has been interrupted. That's where
>I'd be looking, not at EMI.
It definitely can be. The OP said that people can feel an electrical
charge. He didn't say that the charge knocked them down. Seeing how
these wet people standing on the wet ground are great conductors it
can easily be a induced voltage on the plumbing caused by a near by
transformer or motor.
>
>
>
>Yes, and of the billions of homes and businesses buildings, this one
>is the only one where this induced AC electromagnetic effect is
>occuring.
You'd be surprised what voltage is induced on different conductors.
'Normally you would never notice. This one is different because
showering people can conduct much more easily. Grounding such
systems properly becomes much more important.
The easy fix is to ground the shower plumbing to the
floor/ground/drain.
| |
|
| On Tue, 12 Jun 2007 09:38:17 -0500, T8EPLO96@noemail.com wrote:
>
>Of course, since this is a church project, it could be that the man
>upstairs is just having a little fun, or maybe he needs more people in
>heaven. So, if all else fails, blame God.
He may be going to zap some nasty camper. The kid is probably dirty
too, so he has yet to take a shower, but some day he will.
>
>T8EPLO96
| |
| Stormin Mormon 2007-06-12, 5:25 pm |
| <T8EPLO96@noemail.com> wrote in message
news:iqat639nf9qq5ouo053mhe85p6kbarhuq2@4ax.com...
:
: The first thing he should do is completely disconnect the
furnace.
: The switch shuts off the HOT. But open the box and disconnect
the
: neutral too. Then see if you get a shock or voltage reading.
If not,
: there is an electrical leak, bad motor or something else. If
there is
: still voltage in the shower, the problem is not the furnace.
CY: That's good. I remember that we did turn off the furnace, and
the 5 volts disappeared.
:
: You did not mention what kind of pipe feeds that shower. Is it
: copper, steel or pvc or some other plastic? If it's copper,
or steel
: ground the pipes to a good ground. If its a type of plastic,
some
: wire has to be touching the shower valve. It could be someone
: punctured a romex cable with a nail and it's leaking into
something
: metal touching the shower valves.
CY: The water pipe is copper.
:
: On the other hand, it could be the drain that is getting the
voltage.
: I dont think anyone uses metalic pipe for drainage these days.
Thus,
: with pvc pipes, the voltage it leaking into the drain, or the
tub
: itself if it's a metal tub.
CY: Unlikely that the drain is energized.
:
: Here's another test. Shut off the MAINS in thge breaker box.
Do you
: still get a shock? If not, turn on the mains and turn off each
: breaker one by one till you find the one that kills the shock.
Trace
: that entire circuit. I'd guess it does to that bathroom.
CY: Good diagnostic technique.
:
: Of course, since this is a church project, it could be that the
man
: upstairs is just having a little fun, or maybe he needs more
people in
: heaven. So, if all else fails, blame God.
CY: I'll do that.
:
: T8EPLO96
:
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| Stormin Mormon 2007-06-12, 5:25 pm |
| Thanks for the good advice. I've seen the tube things with two
handles for inserting fence posts. I'll put out the word I'm
wanting one for a couple days.
--
Christopher A. Young
You can't shout down a troll.
You have to starve them.
..
<T8EPLO96@noemail.com> wrote in message
news:9dct63te06u9fis674f9fb48fqgo8504pb@4ax.com...
: On Mon, 11 Jun 2007 21:09:08 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"
: <cayoung61**spamblock##@hotmail.com> wrote:
:
: >The furnace has both a neutral and a ground. I know -- I
checked.
: >Is 8 foot the standard? I was in Home Cheepo last night, and
they
: >do sell 8 foot ground rods. Is a shorter rod acceptable? Eight
: >feet sounds like a lot of sledge hammer work.
:
: Sledge hammering a ground rod above your head is a great way to
get
: hurt. I've done it. After that I learned that they make
T-post
: drivers. Much safer and easier. You only need the hammer for
the
: last 18 inches or so. Yes, you really should use an 8 footer.
Shorter
: ones are for tv antennas, electric fence grounds, and other
oddball
: stuff.
:
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|
| Doug Miller wrote:
>
> Actually, Code is 8' or to the depth of permanent soil moisture, whichever is
> deeper. [Article 250.53(A)]
250.53-A is installation and is not whichever.
250.52-A-5 has requirements for the electrode - min 8'.
--
bud--
| |
| Doug Miller 2007-06-13, 1:25 pm |
| In article <bbe99$46701742$4213ebab$30591@DIALUPUSA.NET>, Bud-- <remove.BudNews@isp.com> wrote:
>Doug Miller wrote:
>
>
>250.53-A is installation and is not whichever.
250.53(A): "Where practicable, rod, pipe, and plate electrodes shall be
embedded below permanent moisture level."
>250.52-A-5 has requirements for the electrode - min 8'.
Note the word "minimum". Clearly, if the depth of permanent moisture is at,
say, 10 feet, and it is "practicable" to drive a rod to that depth, 250.53(A)
*requires* doing so.
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.
| |
|
| Doug Miller wrote:
> In article <bbe99$46701742$4213ebab$30591@DIALUPUSA.NET>, Bud-- <remove.BudNews@isp.com> wrote:
>
> 250.53(A): "Where practicable, rod, pipe, and plate electrodes shall be
> embedded below permanent moisture level."
>
>
> Note the word "minimum". Clearly, if the depth of permanent moisture is at,
> say, 10 feet, and it is "practicable" to drive a rod to that depth, 250.53(A)
> *requires* doing so.
>
I misread your original post as 8' or moisture whichever is less. What
you wrote, whichever is greater, is right and is a good practice.
I doubt you usually know the depth to permanent soil moisture, which
makes the article a little hard to enforce. And I doubt it is enforced.
Fortunately the move is, in general, to Ufer/concrete encased
electrodes, which are far better electrodes.
Anyone been required to use a ground rod more than 8' in the earth?
--
bud--
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