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Home > Archive > Home Repair forum > June 2007 > Will a 1kw genny start my fridge *update*
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Will a 1kw genny start my fridge *update*
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| Toller 2007-06-13, 1:25 pm |
| A month or two go I asked here if a Yamaha EF1000, which will produce 8a,
will start my refrigerator that draws 13a at startup.
The majority opinion was probably; the fridge probably doesn't need 13a to
start and the genny will probably produce more than 8a for a short time; so
between the two...
As it happens, one retailer claimed that Yamaha told them the EF1000 will
produce 3500w for 3 seconds, which is not supported on the Yamaha website.
I called Yamaha and was told that their website says it will produce 1000w,
so that is all it will produce. Eventually I got to the supervisor's
supervisor, who said that it will do 3500w, but they are not making that
claim anymore. (presumably they got complaints from people who didn't
understand what "3 seconds" meant.)
So I bought the EF1000. It will actually start my shopvac, which draws 16a
at startup. I haven't pushed it any harder, so I can't actually verify the
3500w, but it is good enough.
Alls well that ends well.
Incidentally, Honda told me the absolute max on their EU1000 is 1000w and it
will not start my fridge; I don't know if someone higher up would say
otherwise.
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| Tony Hwang 2007-06-13, 1:25 pm |
| Toller wrote:
> A month or two go I asked here if a Yamaha EF1000, which will produce 8a,
> will start my refrigerator that draws 13a at startup.
> The majority opinion was probably; the fridge probably doesn't need 13a to
> start and the genny will probably produce more than 8a for a short time; so
> between the two...
>
> As it happens, one retailer claimed that Yamaha told them the EF1000 will
> produce 3500w for 3 seconds, which is not supported on the Yamaha website.
> I called Yamaha and was told that their website says it will produce 1000w,
> so that is all it will produce. Eventually I got to the supervisor's
> supervisor, who said that it will do 3500w, but they are not making that
> claim anymore. (presumably they got complaints from people who didn't
> understand what "3 seconds" meant.)
>
> So I bought the EF1000. It will actually start my shopvac, which draws 16a
> at startup. I haven't pushed it any harder, so I can't actually verify the
> 3500w, but it is good enough.
> Alls well that ends well.
>
> Incidentally, Honda told me the absolute max on their EU1000 is 1000w and it
> will not start my fridge; I don't know if someone higher up would say
> otherwise.
>
>
Hi,
If you think in terms of peak to peak rating. But that is measured is
fractional seconds.
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| Smarty 2007-06-13, 1:25 pm |
| There is no such thing as "peak-to-peak" ratings for a generator measured in
"fractional seconds".
You might be thinking of "peak", "surge", "maximum inrush" or other such
terms which describe the brief maximum current which the generator (and its'
associated fuse/breaker) can deliver.
"Peak-to-peak" is used in electrical engineering to describe the amplitude /
height of an analog waveform when measuring from the maximum negative to
positive swing. For a sine wave (the most common form of alternating
current), it represents a value which is about 2.8 times the average / RMS
value.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak-to-peak
Smarty
"Tony Hwang" <dragon40@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:HWTbi.21076$1i1.8301@pd7urf3no...
> Toller wrote:
> Hi,
> If you think in terms of peak to peak rating. But that is measured is
> fractional seconds.
| |
| Big Al 2007-06-13, 5:25 pm |
|
"Toller" <Toller@Yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:uLTbi.10289$B25.9027@news01.roc.ny...
..)
>
> So I bought the EF1000. It will actually start my shopvac, which draws
16a
> at startup. I haven't pushed it any harder, so I can't actually verify
the
> 3500w, but it is good enough.
> Alls well that ends well.
>
The shop vac has a universal motor, one with brushes and a wound armature,
like in a power saw. The refrigerator uses a different type motor, it may
not start even if the shop vac does. Why not just try it?
Al
| |
| Toller 2007-06-13, 8:25 pm |
|
"Big Al" <sal1@qwest.net> wrote in message
news:46706c2f$0$498$815e3792@news.qwest.net...
>
> "Toller" <Toller@Yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:uLTbi.10289$B25.9027@news01.roc.ny...
> .)
> 16a
> the
> The shop vac has a universal motor, one with brushes and a wound armature,
> like in a power saw. The refrigerator uses a different type motor, it may
> not start even if the shop vac does. Why not just try it?
>
Because I drained the carburator already. But if it draws 16a and the
fridge only draws 13a, it ought to be okay. True, the power factors could
be completely different, and that might change things.
| |
| zxcvbob 2007-06-13, 8:25 pm |
| Toller wrote:
> A month or two go I asked here if a Yamaha EF1000, which will produce 8a,
> will start my refrigerator that draws 13a at startup.
> The majority opinion was probably; the fridge probably doesn't need 13a to
> start and the genny will probably produce more than 8a for a short time; so
> between the two...
>
> As it happens, one retailer claimed that Yamaha told them the EF1000 will
> produce 3500w for 3 seconds, which is not supported on the Yamaha website.
> I called Yamaha and was told that their website says it will produce 1000w,
> so that is all it will produce. Eventually I got to the supervisor's
> supervisor, who said that it will do 3500w, but they are not making that
> claim anymore. (presumably they got complaints from people who didn't
> understand what "3 seconds" meant.)
>
> So I bought the EF1000. It will actually start my shopvac, which draws 16a
> at startup. I haven't pushed it any harder, so I can't actually verify the
> 3500w, but it is good enough.
> Alls well that ends well.
>
> Incidentally, Honda told me the absolute max on their EU1000 is 1000w and it
> will not start my fridge; I don't know if someone higher up would say
> otherwise.
>
>
The shopvac has a universal motor and the fridge has a capacitor-start
induction motor. They are not equivalent loads. Your test is invalid;
sorry. (and I'm not sure which is the harder one to start)
Bob
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| Stormin Mormon 2007-06-13, 8:25 pm |
| Well, gas it up and try it. Don't keep us all in suspense.
--
Christopher A. Young
You can't shout down a troll.
You have to starve them.
..
"Toller" <Toller@Yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:lv_bi.10324$B25.5749@news01.roc.ny...
:
: > like in a power saw. The refrigerator uses a different type
motor, it may
: > not start even if the shop vac does. Why not just try it?
: >
: Because I drained the carburator already. But if it draws 16a
and the
: fridge only draws 13a, it ought to be okay. True, the power
factors could
: be completely different, and that might change things.
:
:
| |
| Don Young 2007-06-14, 3:25 am |
|
"Toller" <Toller@Yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:lv_bi.10324$B25.5749@news01.roc.ny...
>
> "Big Al" <sal1@qwest.net> wrote in message
> news:46706c2f$0$498$815e3792@news.qwest.net...
> Because I drained the carburator already. But if it draws 16a and the
> fridge only draws 13a, it ought to be okay. True, the power factors could
> be completely different, and that might change things.
>
As others have said, you have not in any way verified that your generator
will start your refrigerator. You have only verified that it will start your
shop-vac. These are the kinds of tests that marketers like to demonstrate,
to make people think they have proven something they haven't. If it is
important that the generator start the refrigerator, try it several times. I
suspect the 13A refrigerator will be harder for the generator to start than
the 16A shop-vac but since there are several unknown variables it cannot be
determined except by testing. I believe it will be okay.
Don Young
| |
| Dave Martindale 2007-06-14, 3:25 am |
| "Toller" <Toller@Yahoo.com> writes:
[color=darkred]
>Because I drained the carburator already. But if it draws 16a and the
>fridge only draws 13a, it ought to be okay. True, the power factors could
>be completely different, and that might change things.
What matters is how the different appliances react to low voltage.
The shop vac has a universal motor, which will draw less current on
lower voltage and run slower. It's driving a fan, which is almost zero
load at startup from zero speed. So if the generator's voltage droops
under load, the shop vac will just take a while longer to get up to
speed.
The refrigerator uses an induction motor, which draws more current when
voltage drops. It's probably driving a piston pump, which should be
easy to start if the fridge has been off for a while and pressures have
equalized, but not as easy as a fan. So you may find that drooping
voltage under overload means the refrigerator won't start at all, and
either the motor or the generator will eventually trip on overload.
Dave
| |
| Tony Hwang 2007-06-14, 3:25 am |
| Smarty wrote:
> There is no such thing as "peak-to-peak" ratings for a generator measured in
> "fractional seconds".
>
> You might be thinking of "peak", "surge", "maximum inrush" or other such
> terms which describe the brief maximum current which the generator (and its'
> associated fuse/breaker) can deliver.
>
> "Peak-to-peak" is used in electrical engineering to describe the amplitude /
> height of an analog waveform when measuring from the maximum negative to
> positive swing. For a sine wave (the most common form of alternating
> current), it represents a value which is about 2.8 times the average / RMS
> value.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak-to-peak
>
> Smarty
>
>
> "Tony Hwang" <dragon40@shaw.ca> wrote in message
> news:HWTbi.21076$1i1.8301@pd7urf3no...
>
>
>
>
Hi,
You just explained what I said in plain language.
Yup, peak to peak, average, rms three terms commonly used.
Remember stereo salesman used to use peak music power to sell El Cheapo
amps? Kikewise! Marketing gimmicks are many and confusing to gemeral
consumers.
| |
| Smarty 2007-06-14, 3:25 am |
| Tony,
Peak to peak means one thing and "peak" means another. "Peak" music power as
mis-used by stereo salesmen (until the FTC forced the industry to adopt
correct and standardized terms) was a term used to exaggerate the true
average/RMS power which an amplifier could deliver. This has absolutely
nothing whatsoever to do with "peak to peak", the term you originally
mis-used.
Peak-to-peak, as the reference in Wikipedia correct states, merely indicates
the size of a waveform from its lowest (negative) peak to its highest
(positive) peak. If you have a scope in front of you, looking at a waveform,
the peak to peak voltage is nothing more than the height of the signal in
volts.
Generators make electricity, and one could describe the waveform they
produce by saying it has a peak to peak voltage of 336 volts (assuming a
sine wave and 120 volt RMS generator) but this is not a description of the
surge capacity of the generator.
When specifying / characterizing the ability of a generator to provide
transient, brief additional power, the term which electricians and
electrical engineers use is "peak" or "surge" or "transient", but never
"peak to peak". It may seem or sound similar, but is not the same thing.
Smarty
"Tony Hwang" <dragon40@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:7_2ci.21342$NV3.15737@pd7urf2no...
> Smarty wrote:
>
> Hi,
> You just explained what I said in plain language.
> Yup, peak to peak, average, rms three terms commonly used.
> Remember stereo salesman used to use peak music power to sell El Cheapo
> amps? Kikewise! Marketing gimmicks are many and confusing to gemeral
> consumers.
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