Home Repair forum - Fine grade and compact

Author

Fine grade and compact

2007-08-29, 8:25 pm

This is different sort of problem for me.

Our HOA contracted with a company for it to do three things.

Number 2 is "Asphalt Repairs [in roadway in front of 8 townhouses] -
Escavate approximately 307 square yards of failed pavement to an 4"
average. Fine grade and compact. Haul all debris off site. Install
approximately 307 square yards with a 4" average of bituminous
asphalt; roll to compact." $8,826.00

The problem is that I watched and they only removed 1 inch or mayybe
inch and a quarter, instead of the 4" it says.

Would anyone in this situation remove 4" in this situation? Or is
this clearly a typo, even though it appears twice?

Is one to 1 1/4 inches enough to have a decent job?

I haven't driven over this yet, but a friend tells me it is very
bumpy, even in his Lincoln Town car. They had a mini "steam" roller
there, but I didn't watch that part.

WHAT ABOUT "Fine grade and compact"? Does that mean they were supposed
to add some fine gravel, and then grade and compact it? Again I
didn't watch that part, but I don't see how there could be room for
any gravel with only an inch removed.

Or does it mean they were to "fine grade" it, and what would that be.
What would compacting be, if no new material was put down? The old
material was already compaceted, I think, by years of our driving on
it.

They used one big machine to remove a five-foot wide swath of asphalt
and run it up a long conveyor belt attached to the machine, into a
dump truck, that moved ahead as the machine moved ahead. They only
had one dump truck and did the whole area while only filling it once.

The machine had a big flat almost vertical door on the back, 3 foot
tall and as wide as the machine, except for an inch on each side, that
lifted up a couple inches when they were done with a section, and
lowered when they started again. Given the height of the door and the
do-it-all nature of the machine, I'm pretty sure the machine could
have done 4 inches if it had been set for that.

They had five machines, the big one above, the dump truck, a
mini-roller, a front loader with a big horizontal scoop which I think
they used for debris, and a big pickup with lots of tool cabinets in
back, which also pullled the compressor which they used to run the
jack hammer to remove a small section of blacktop the big machine
couldn't reach. They had a driver for each machine and about two
laborers, who shovelled or swept.

Hmmm. In some universe they could have used the jack hammer to remove
another 3 inches from the big area, but they didn't do that, did they?
Why would they when they had that big machine, and if it couldn't do 4
inches in one pass, it could do it in two or three?

(They also appear to have done item 3, the "striping", not according
to what was wanted. We only wanted squares on the side of the curb.
That's another topic, but it also raises the question of Are they able
to follow their own contract? I also don't think the area they did
was 307 sq. yds, more like 200, but I need to check the whole n'hood,
tomorrow, if there are other parts.))

Thanks for any help.

DanG

2007-08-29, 9:25 pm

The primary reasons that asphalt fails are:

Too heavy a loads - trash trucks, etc
Old age and loss of the oils that keep asphalt alive.
Moisture under the asphalt (bad grade, bad subsoil, bad
compaction)

I don't know why yours did fail. Many residential applications
are only 1 1/2" when new. This might be laid right on a clay
subsoil. This is a recipe for early failure.

Good commercial asphalt often has lime stabilized subsoil (makes
the clay friable and compactable) down almost 24".
Rolled and compacted.
A 6" hot sand base.
2" finish course.

If the subsoil was in good condition and the asphalt was just old
and worn out (lost oils), you may have an excellent installation.
Your contract did not say to remove subsoil from site, it said
remove the old asphalt (which I suspect they did) and to disturb,
grade, and compact whatever else is there. It did not ask them
bring in select material or to stabilize.
Who is supposed to have inspected or monitored the work performed?
Who wrote the original language of the contract? What were you
trying to perform - a fresh new surface or remediation of bad
conditions? I'm not trying to be smart, but you do know there are
9 SF in a SY. I assume they used a lay down machine to install
the new asphalt (I hope someone was testing the temperature of the
mix) and that it was roller compacted within the necessary time
restrictions. A bad roller man can ruin the efforts of the lay
down crew.

I don't know that I helped or hurt. Sounds a bit like sour grapes
because they completed to quickly or someone is feeling ripped
off. There are many asphalt repair sites on the internet. Here
is one that sounds pretty legit to me:
http://www.rosepaving.com/PDF/Asphalt.pdf

--
______________________________
Keep the whole world singing . . . .
DanG (remove the sevens)
dgriff237@7cox.net

"mm" <NOPSAMmm2005@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:jjtbd39uu7j4efa4b0af14omsjp1a3j58i@4ax.com...
> This is different sort of problem for me.
>
> Our HOA contracted with a company for it to do three things.
>
> Number 2 is "Asphalt Repairs [in roadway in front of 8
> townhouses] -
> Escavate approximately 307 square yards of failed pavement to an
> 4"
> average. Fine grade and compact. Haul all debris off site.
> Install
> approximately 307 square yards with a 4" average of bituminous
> asphalt; roll to compact." $8,826.00
>
>
> The problem is that I watched and they only removed 1 inch or
> mayybe
> inch and a quarter, instead of the 4" it says.
>
> Would anyone in this situation remove 4" in this situation? Or
> is
> this clearly a typo, even though it appears twice?
>
> Is one to 1 1/4 inches enough to have a decent job?
>
> I haven't driven over this yet, but a friend tells me it is very
> bumpy, even in his Lincoln Town car. They had a mini "steam"
> roller
> there, but I didn't watch that part.
>
> WHAT ABOUT "Fine grade and compact"? Does that mean they were
> supposed
> to add some fine gravel, and then grade and compact it? Again I
> didn't watch that part, but I don't see how there could be room
> for
> any gravel with only an inch removed.
>
> Or does it mean they were to "fine grade" it, and what would
> that be.
> What would compacting be, if no new material was put down? The
> old
> material was already compaceted, I think, by years of our
> driving on
> it.
>
> They used one big machine to remove a five-foot wide swath of
> asphalt
> and run it up a long conveyor belt attached to the machine, into
> a
> dump truck, that moved ahead as the machine moved ahead. They
> only
> had one dump truck and did the whole area while only filling it
> once.
>
> The machine had a big flat almost vertical door on the back, 3
> foot
> tall and as wide as the machine, except for an inch on each
> side, that
> lifted up a couple inches when they were done with a section,
> and
> lowered when they started again. Given the height of the door
> and the
> do-it-all nature of the machine, I'm pretty sure the machine
> could
> have done 4 inches if it had been set for that.
>
> They had five machines, the big one above, the dump truck, a
> mini-roller, a front loader with a big horizontal scoop which I
> think
> they used for debris, and a big pickup with lots of tool
> cabinets in
> back, which also pullled the compressor which they used to run
> the
> jack hammer to remove a small section of blacktop the big
> machine
> couldn't reach. They had a driver for each machine and about
> two
> laborers, who shovelled or swept.
>
> Hmmm. In some universe they could have used the jack hammer to
> remove
> another 3 inches from the big area, but they didn't do that, did
> they?
> Why would they when they had that big machine, and if it
> couldn't do 4
> inches in one pass, it could do it in two or three?
>
>
> (They also appear to have done item 3, the "striping", not
> according
> to what was wanted. We only wanted squares on the side of the
> curb.
> That's another topic, but it also raises the question of Are
> they able
> to follow their own contract? I also don't think the area they
> did
> was 307 sq. yds, more like 200, but I need to check the whole
> n'hood,
> tomorrow, if there are other parts.))
>
> Thanks for any help.

2007-08-31, 3:25 am

On Wed, 29 Aug 2007 21:07:16 -0500, "DanG" <dgriff23@7cox.net> wrote:

>The primary reasons that asphalt fails are:
>
>Too heavy a loads - trash trucks, etc
>Old age and loss of the oils that keep asphalt alive.
>Moisture under the asphalt (bad grade, bad subsoil, bad
>compaction)

Thanks for replying.
>
>I don't know why yours did fail. Many residential applications
>are only 1 1/2" when new. This might be laid right on a clay
>subsoil. This is a recipe for early failure.

Well, there had been a water leak that caused water to run over this
portion, for several weeks. But I'm not doubting that it failed, or
complaining about that. I saw with my own eyes that chunks were
coming out.

It's the repair to it that I have doubts about.
>
>Good commercial asphalt often has lime stabilized subsoil (makes
>the clay friable and compactable) down almost 24".
>Rolled and compacted.
>A 6" hot sand base.
>2" finish course.

So if the finish is only to be 2 inches, what do these things in the
contract refer to "Excavate ... failed pavement to a 4"
average. Install ...with a 4" average of bituminous
asphalt" ??

They excavated no more than an inch and a half anywhere, and replaced
the same amount. It was a patch and it is now level at the borders
with the part that was not patched. So the height is the same and I
know how deep they went.

>...and to disturb, grade, and compact whatever else is there.

What is meant by disturb, grade, and compact? Is it that they should
have used shovels or jackhammers to dig up what was under the
blacktop?

Grade means to make it level, right? With a rake or a small roller
vehicle?

But how could they possibly compact it more than it was compactec when
they started. If they had ripped up the blacktop with jackhammers
that wouldnt' have been true, but since they used that fancy machine,
the area underneath was undisturbed, except for maybe some dust or
small particles on top from the fancy machine.

>It did not ask them
>bring in select material or to stabilize.

I only suggested that to show my confusion about "fine grade and
compact" which was in the contract.

>Who is supposed to have inspected or monitored the work performed?

I don't know. Not me. Possibly the HOA pres who teaches school and
hadn't gone back to work yet, but she know almost nothing about
construction and would have only stopped by once or twice for a few
minutes. She wasn't there any of the times I was there.

>Who wrote the original language of the contract? What were you

Almost certainly the contractor.

>trying to perform - a fresh new surface or remediation of bad
>conditions?

The latter.

>I'm not trying to be smart, but you do know there are
>9 SF in a SY.

Yes, I do.

And I considered that.

> I assume they used a lay down machine to install
>the new asphalt

I would assume that too but I didn't see. They did this part between
4PM and 6PM and the machine wasn't there prior to that. I forgot to
go check on the bumps I'm told are in the surface, so I don't know how
big they are.

> (I hope someone was testing the temperature of the
>mix) and that it was roller compacted within the necessary time
>restrictions. A bad roller man can ruin the efforts of the lay
>down crew.
>
>I don't know that I helped or hurt. Sounds a bit like sour grapes
>because they completed to quickly or someone is feeling ripped
>off.

Not at all. I don't have any sour grapes, and I had no complaint
about when they finished**, and I won't feel ripped off until I find
out what the contract meant, and if it was just a typo or if they
contracted and charged for more than they did. Were they supposed to
dig out 4 inches and put down 4 inches like the contract said, or is
an inch and a quarter or less OK?

**I was only looking at the contract because afaik, from the meeting
and reading the contract before we agreed to it, they were supposed to
paint yellow on non-parking portions of the curbs, they were supposed
to put ticks on the curb to separate the parking places, and they were
supposed to do this pavement repair. But in fact, they painted
stripes between parking spaces. The stripes look nice now, but a) in
a couple years they'll look dime, b) we didn't want to spend the
money, and c) no one felt any need for stripes. We were fine with
only the white squares on the side of the curb. (I didnt' even want
those) but I didn't post about this because I have to talk to other
board members about that, to see if this is what they voted for, and
misunderstood something.

>There are many asphalt repair sites on the internet. Here
>is one that sounds pretty legit to me:
>http://www.rosepaving.com/PDF/Asphalt.pdf

I'll take a look. I have to start getright so I want to post before I
read this.

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