Home Repair forum - Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater

Author

Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater

Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator

2008-02-10, 1:25 pm

Can I get some quick trusty advice on a dripping gas 40 gallon hot-water
heater?

I noticed my hot-water heater leaking and my husband is out of town.
He says wait until he comes back (1 week) but I am afraid something bad
will happen. He also says maybe we should replace with an instant on
tankless heater but I want to get it done today!

Do you have quick advice on hot-water heaters?

1. If it's leaking cold water from the bottom but still working, is it not
repairable (I assume it's a throwaway item).

2. It's at least as new/old as when I moved into this house around 2000 and
it has an energy efficiency sticker so it's not that old. But, would you
replace it with a bigger (only two people in the small house as the kids
are gone) one or even go tankless?

3. Is it a home repair or, due to gas, is it only by a qualified pro?

4. Do most of you go to Home Depot or the like and just pick one and have
them install it or is there a "better" way?

5. I never did anything preventative but googling talks about a sacrificial
anode and draining; should I have done that (I'm guessing yes).

6. If we go tankless, are there "gotchas" we need to watch out for?

Sorry for so many questions!
But it would be nice to get your off-the-cuff advice again!

Donna

ransley

2008-02-10, 1:25 pm

On Feb 10, 9:53=A0am, "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator"
<donna....@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> Can I get some quick trusty advice on a dripping gas 40 gallon hot-water
> heater?
>
> I noticed my hot-water heater leaking and my husband is out of town.
> He says wait until he comes back (1 week) but I am afraid something bad
> will happen. He also says maybe we should replace with an instant on
> tankless heater but I want to get it done today!
>
> Do you have quick advice on hot-water heaters?
>
> 1. If it's leaking cold water from the bottom but still working, is it not=

> repairable (I assume it's a throwaway item).
>
> 2. It's at least as new/old as when I moved into this house around 2000 an=
d
> it has an energy efficiency sticker so it's not that old. But, would you
> replace it with a bigger (only two people in the small house as the kids
> are gone) one or even go tankless?
>
> 3. Is it a home repair or, due to gas, is it only by a qualified pro?
>
> 4. Do most of you go to Home Depot or the like and just pick one and have
> them install it or is there a "better" way?
>
> 5. I never did anything preventative but googling talks about a sacrificia=
l
> anode and draining; should I have done that (I'm guessing yes).
>
> 6. If we go tankless, are there "gotchas" we need to watch out for?
>
> Sorry for so many questions!
> But it would be nice to get your off-the-cuff advice again!
>
> Donna

Wait till he gets back

N8N

2008-02-10, 1:25 pm

On Feb 10, 10:53=A0am, "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator"
<donna....@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> Can I get some quick trusty advice on a dripping gas 40 gallon hot-water
> heater?
>
> I noticed my hot-water heater leaking and my husband is out of town.
> He says wait until he comes back (1 week) but I am afraid something bad
> will happen. He also says maybe we should replace with an instant on
> tankless heater but I want to get it done today!
>
> Do you have quick advice on hot-water heaters?
>
> 1. If it's leaking cold water from the bottom but still working, is it not=

> repairable (I assume it's a throwaway item).

by "bottom" if you mean "bottom of tank" then yes, it needs to be
replaced.

>
> 2. It's at least as new/old as when I moved into this house around 2000 an=
d
> it has an energy efficiency sticker so it's not that old. But, would you
> replace it with a bigger (only two people in the small house as the kids
> are gone) one or even go tankless?

Depends on your exact situation. There's resources online to help you
select the proper sized water heater. Do you have any issues with
your old one? (running out of hot water mid-shower, etc.?) If no, it
is probably at least as big as you need. I have no opinion on
tankless, but be aware that you may have to do some gas plumbing to
make it work, as well as your flue for the old WH may now be
undersized. Tankless WH's have a much higher BTU/hr rating than tank
style and therefore use gas at a much higher rate. You have to both
feed and exhaust it properly (kind of like hot-rodding a car.)

>
> 3. Is it a home repair or, due to gas, is it only by a qualified pro?
>

Depends on how handy you are. If you're just replacing a tank style
with another tank style you *may* be able to handle it yourself, but
I'm hesitant to say for sure without knowing your skill set. I'd
probably call a pro to convert to tankless.

> 4. Do most of you go to Home Depot or the like and just pick one and have
> them install it or is there a "better" way?

I would avoid that orange colored circle of Hell like the plague and
call a real plumber.

> 5. I never did anything preventative but googling talks about a sacrificia=
l
> anode and draining; should I have done that (I'm guessing yes).

checking the anode and flushing the tank every hear is never a bad
idea.

> 6. If we go tankless, are there "gotchas" we need to watch out for?
>
> Sorry for so many questions!
> But it would be nice to get your off-the-cuff advice again!
>
> Donna

Shut off the gas to the WH and shut off the water to your house before
you leave to go anywhere. If you don't know how to do all of this, or
relight the pilot (assuming you have one) post back. Does the room in
which the heater is located have a floor drain? Can you tell where
the water is leaking from? (is it coming from the T&P valve pipe? If
so you can fix this yourself without buying a new WH.)

I wouldn't rush into replacing the water heater; there's real savings
to be had from carefully shopping and selecting one that is a) sized
right for your house and b) as efficient as possible. Unfortunately
the typical water heater purchase sounds a lot like yours, so there's
typically some sense of urgency behind it and people don't make the
best decisions.

If it is well and truly failed, and you have to replace it, take a
look at waterheaterrescue.com (I think I got that right) I would
definitely install a ball valve in place of the factory plastic drain
valve on your new heater, and they also offer other helpful advice
there. If you have someone install it you probably won't have the
opportunity to install a curved dip tube as they recommend, but that
is really only important for high sediment areas. You don't need to
buy from WHR (although I did buy new anodes for my heaters from them
as I was unable to find any source locally that sold magnesium anodes)
just to do the ball valve thing; a threaded 3/4" ball valve, a
dielectric nipple, and a 3/4" NPT male to garden hose male adapter is
all you need (and pipe wrenches and dope, of course) pick up a brass
garden hose fitting cap while you're shopping in case someone kicks
the ball valve unintentionally. It is, however, WAY easier to do this
before the water is turned on to your new heater; it's a bit messier
if you have to retrofit an old heater due to a busted drain valve.
(ask me how I know this.)

good luck.

nate

Edwin Pawlowski

2008-02-10, 1:25 pm

"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" <donna.ohl@sbcglobal.net> wrote in
message
> Do you have quick advice on hot-water heaters?
>
> 1. If it's leaking cold water from the bottom but still working, is it not
> repairable (I assume it's a throwaway item).
>

Yes, toss it.

> 2. It's at least as new/old as when I moved into this house around 2000
> and
> it has an energy efficiency sticker so it's not that old. But, would you
> replace it with a bigger (only two people in the small house as the kids
> are gone) one or even go tankless?

If it works for you, size is OK. If yo ever runs short, go for bigger. For
gas, is is probably plenty good as it has faster recovery than electric.

>
> 3. Is it a home repair or, due to gas, is it only by a qualified pro?

Depends on your skill level. If you have to ask, get a pro.

>
> 4. Do most of you go to Home Depot or the like and just pick one and have
> them install it or is there a "better" way?

I'd rather use a local plumber, but, some of the big stores do a next day
install.

>
> 5. I never did anything preventative but googling talks about a
> sacrificial
> anode and draining; should I have done that (I'm guessing yes).

I think that is more of an eectric thing than gas.

>
> 6. If we go tankless, are there "gotchas" we need to watch out for?

Yes, you need lots of power, venting etc. You may hot have allthe time
needed to plan an install. Many people are also unhappy with them too as
they are not as resposive as they'd like.

Chances of a catastrophic failure are slim, but I'd not wait very long. You
can close the feed valve to the heater and limit any leaks to the 40 gallons
inside of it.
--
Ed
http://pages.cthome.net/edhome/

Malcolm Hoar

2008-02-10, 1:25 pm

In article <fona51$vm7$1@aioe.org>, "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" <donna.ohl@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>Can I get some quick trusty advice on a dripping gas 40 gallon hot-water
>heater?
>
>I noticed my hot-water heater leaking and my husband is out of town.
>He says wait until he comes back (1 week) but I am afraid something bad
>will happen. He also says maybe we should replace with an instant on
>tankless heater but I want to get it done today!

First, don't leave it long but spend a few days doing your
homework. Do it today and you'll likely get talked into
something you'll regret.

I prefer a tank to tankless. Get one with really good
insulation and it will be just as energy efficient.

I dislike Home Depot. A good local independent is a
better bet if you can find one with strong recommendations.
Ask your neighbors, co-workers etc. I'd go to Sears
rather then stick a pin in the Yellow Pages.

Check locally for permit issues. Some cities actually
require a permit to replace a water heater (just silly
IMO, but it's the law).

--
|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|
| Malcolm Hoar "The more I practice, the luckier I get". |
| malch@malch.com Gary Player. |
| http://www.malch.com/ Shpx gur PQN. |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

N8N

2008-02-10, 1:25 pm

Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator

2008-02-10, 1:25 pm

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 12:32:38 -0500, Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

> Yes, toss it.
I'm on Consumer Reports right now looking up how to buy a new one.

> If it works for you, size is OK. If yo ever runs short, go for bigger. For
> gas, is is probably plenty good as it has faster recovery than electric.

It's gas and it has always been fine with the water.
We have even fewer people in the house now than ever before.
The FHR (first hour rating) is 65 on the existing (leaking) water heater.
It's 34,000 BTUs.
I can't seem to find the EF (energy efficiency).
I can't make out the brand but on the label, I can see a model "40HMEV"
(whatever that is) that I'm looking up now.
It's barely dripping ... just a puddle on the floor ... so I wonder how
much time I have to research the right thing to do.

I guess I have a day or two?

Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator

2008-02-10, 1:25 pm

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 09:32:59 -0800 (PST), N8N wrote:

> by "bottom" if you mean "bottom of tank" then yes, it needs to be
> replaced.

I read in Consumer Reports that sometimes the pressure-relief valve leaks
but that is on top and it's dry as a bone. The water is pooling in a slow
drip (I'd guess an ounce an hour or so) somewhere in the back of the bottom
of the unit. There is nothing dripping out the top where the two curly
pipes for the water seem to come in and out.

> Depends on your exact situation. There's resources online to help you
> select the proper sized water heater. Do you have any issues with
> your old one?

The current model "40HMEV" hotwater heater was fine at 40 gallons, FHR of
65, 34,000 BTUs. I can't read the Energy Efficiency (EF) rating because
it's behind the earthquake straps.

> Tankless WH's have a much higher BTU/hr rating than tank
> tyle and therefore use gas at a much higher rate. You have to both
> feed and exhaust it properly (kind of like hot-rodding a car.)

I think that's too complicated for me so I'm giving up quickly on the
tankless. I'll try to find a good price for a good tank installed today. I
see Home Depot is deprecated so I might have to go to Sears. I hope they do
same-day install.

Can I just throw the old one in the trash or does it have recycling toxics?

Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator

2008-02-10, 1:25 pm

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 17:37:04 GMT, Malcolm Hoar wrote:

> First, don't leave it long but spend a few days doing your
> homework. Do it today and you'll likely get talked into
> something you'll regret.

This is what I was most worried about!
I didn't know if was going to explode or anything.
The sticker says it has a 300 psi pressure valve or something like that.
I dont' know what 300 psi looks like plastered all over my garage, but I'll
bet it isn't pretty!

Donna

BETA-33

2008-02-10, 1:25 pm

I am not sure why it would be leaking cold water if it is working and
therefore the water in the tank would be hot. Check above the hot water
heater to see if any cold water pipes or any valves are dripping a little,
and if the dripping water is then running down the outside to the bottom,
making it look like the tank is leaking when it isn't.

If it's definitely the tank that is leaking (but leaking "cold" water makes
me wonder about that), there is a risk that it will leak more in the next
few days and be a big mess. Depending on where the tank is located, that
could be a problem. If it's in a basement with a drain, and/or with nothing
around on the floor that could be damaged by water, a bigger leak may not be
a huge problem.

To be safer, when you leave the house, you can turn off the main water valve
to the house, or if you know where the cold water feeds into the top of the
hot water heater, you could just turn that valve off. Then, if there is a
big leak, mostly only the water in the tank will leak out rather than having
an unending flow of water running out of the bottom of the tank.

Skip the tankless water heater idea -- lot's of problems and not worth it.

"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" <donna.ohl@sbcglobal.net> wrote in
message news:fona51$vm7$1@aioe.org...
> Can I get some quick trusty advice on a dripping gas 40 gallon hot-water
> heater?
>
> I noticed my hot-water heater leaking and my husband is out of town.
> He says wait until he comes back (1 week) but I am afraid something bad
> will happen. He also says maybe we should replace with an instant on
> tankless heater but I want to get it done today!
>
> Do you have quick advice on hot-water heaters?
>
> 1. If it's leaking cold water from the bottom but still working, is it not
> repairable (I assume it's a throwaway item).
>
> 2. It's at least as new/old as when I moved into this house around 2000
> and
> it has an energy efficiency sticker so it's not that old. But, would you
> replace it with a bigger (only two people in the small house as the kids
> are gone) one or even go tankless?
>
> 3. Is it a home repair or, due to gas, is it only by a qualified pro?
>
> 4. Do most of you go to Home Depot or the like and just pick one and have
> them install it or is there a "better" way?
>
> 5. I never did anything preventative but googling talks about a
> sacrificial
> anode and draining; should I have done that (I'm guessing yes).
>
> 6. If we go tankless, are there "gotchas" we need to watch out for?
>
> Sorry for so many questions!
> But it would be nice to get your off-the-cuff advice again!
>
> Donna

Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator

2008-02-10, 1:25 pm

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 09:32:59 -0800 (PST), N8N wrote:

> I wouldn't rush into replacing the water heater; there's real savings
> to be had from carefully shopping and selecting one that is a) sized
> right for your house and b) as efficient as possible.

I was scared that I had to replace it this instant!
But, I like to think a bit if I have the time to think.

I think I'm giving up on the tankless idea because of what you said.
This is what Consumer Reports has to say about tankless.
I think I'll replace my "40HMEV" with an equivalent one with a tank!

"Tankless water heaters claim to save money by heating water only when you
turn on the faucet. But smaller, cheaper units probably won't produce
enough hot water to serve a typical family. Larger, gas-fired units cost
$1,000 or more and are expensive to install because they often require
larger gas supply lines and special venting."

Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator

2008-02-10, 1:25 pm

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 09:45:37 -0800 (PST), N8N wrote:

> Most water heaters have a 6 year warranty; that means that anything
> over 10 years or so without regular maintenance is borrowed time.

Hi Nate,
Thanks for the continued advice.
This "warranty" stuff always confused me.
On the one hand, Consumer Reports says never buy the extended warranties
for electronics and the like and on the other hand, for their hot-water
heaters, they say get the ones with the longest warrantee because they
"tend to be insulated better".

Since a warrantee is merely a marketing gimmick, I find the fact that there
is any correlation between warrantee and actual product quality suspicious.

I'm an old(er) woman and I've *never* made good on any warrantee for
anything sizeable ever. I remember muffler warrantees in the 80's where by
the time I needed a new muffler, I didn't even remember where I bought the
last one. Same with automotive batteries and brake pads. Sure, they're
warranted, but, when your tire blows, you need a new tire and you can't
shop around for the store that sold you the warrantee.

Since a warrantee is merely a marketing gimmick, how can there be *any*
correlation between warrantee and actual quality?

Donna

Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator

2008-02-10, 1:25 pm

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 13:16:47 -0500, BETA-33 wrote:

> To be safer, when you leave the house, you can turn off the main water valve
> to the house, or if you know where the cold water feeds into the top of the
> hot water heater, you could just turn that valve off.

It is definately not-hot water (i,e., cool) leaking at the bottom of the
tank. I'll snap a photo and show you. The top has the two pipes coming in,
one is cold; the other is hot. It's working.

It is a good idea to shut off the water coming in (that limits my risk to
40 gallons max); but you didn't state whether I should turn off the gas
also.

I suspect that I must - but can you confirm that the gas goes off with the
water inlet getting shut off?

Donna

Edwin Pawlowski

2008-02-10, 1:25 pm

"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" <donna.ohl@sbcglobal.net> wrote in
message
>
> It is definately not-hot water (i,e., cool) leaking at the bottom of the
> tank. I'll snap a photo and show you. The top has the two pipes coming in,
> one is cold; the other is hot. It's working.
>
> It is a good idea to shut off the water coming in (that limits my risk to
> 40 gallons max); but you didn't state whether I should turn off the gas
> also.
>
> I suspect that I must - but can you confirm that the gas goes off with the
> water inlet getting shut off?
>
> Donna

Be sue the water is not hot water that cooled on the trip to where you see
it.

If you shut the water off, you do not have to shut the gas off as long as
you keep water in the tank.

Nexus7

2008-02-10, 1:25 pm

On Feb 10, 11:32 am, N8N <njna...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> I would avoid that orange colored circle of Hell like the plague and
> call a real plumber.

Well, I went to the HD and bought one and installed it myself. They
sell a nice self-install kit with steel-braided lines, adapters (if
you need them), etc. They have reasonably priced GE models, priced by
the level of insulation, efficiency and other reasonable criteria.

After hours of cursing and sweating to remove the old plumbing,
draining and lugging the old one out, installing and leak-testing the
new one, I thought the around $300 installation price they had wanted
wasn't unreasonable. IIRC, it was around $700 installed next day for
their top-of-the-line heater.

Beats leaving messages on answering services for so-called 24x7x365
plumbers, and the uncertainty. That said, I would shop Sears too, what
is a few phone calls here and there?

N8N

2008-02-10, 5:25 pm

On Feb 10, 12:25=A0pm, "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator"
<donna....@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 09:45:37 -0800 (PST), N8N wrote:
>
> Hi Nate,
> Thanks for the continued advice.
> This "warranty" stuff always confused me.
> On the one hand, Consumer Reports says never buy the extended warranties
> for electronics and the like and on the other hand, for their hot-water
> heaters, they say get the ones with the longest warrantee because they
> "tend to be insulated better".
>
> Since a warrantee is merely a marketing gimmick, I find the fact that ther=
e
> is any correlation between warrantee and actual product quality suspicious=
..
>
> I'm an old(er) woman and I've *never* made good on any warrantee for
> anything sizeable ever. I remember muffler warrantees in the 80's where by=

> the time I needed a new muffler, I didn't even remember where I bought the=

> last one. Same with automotive batteries and brake pads. Sure, they're
> warranted, but, when your tire blows, you need a new tire and you can't
> shop around for the store that sold you the warrantee.
>
> Since a warrantee is merely a marketing gimmick, how can there be *any*
> correlation between warrantee and actual quality?
>
> Donna

As far as water heaters go, the only difference I'm aware of is extra
anodes for the 10 or 12 year warranty models. If you're checking them
every year when you flush and replacing when necessary, it doesn't
matter. I'd pick 'em based on efficiency ratings, BTU/hr ratings, and
price.

nate

Bob M.

2008-02-10, 5:25 pm

"N8N" <njnagel@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:daa5e4f5-9e45-4cd7-8d38-999f5802d822@i12g2000prf.googlegroups.com...

kicking. just goes to show you that there is wide variation in the
life of a WH probably primarily due to local water conditions.

nate

My gas-fired tank is 30 years old & still working fine. Unlike yours
though, I think the previous owners did at least drain it occasionally, as
evidenced by the well-hacked-up edges of the plastic drain valve being
attacked by water pump pliers or whatever. But if it does ever leak, it's
going to the landfill. Since it's right over the floor drain, I don't worry
about it much.

hallerb@aol.com

2008-02-10, 5:25 pm

more expensive longer life tanks tend to have better insulation, brass
rather than plastic drain valves and built in pilot igniters.

I prefer the higher 75K BTU larger tank, to avoid running out of hot
water....

Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator

2008-02-10, 5:25 pm

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 13:53:59 -0500, Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

> If you shut the water off, you do not have to shut the gas off as long as
> you keep water in the tank.

Hi Edwin,

Thank you for this home water heater gas line shut off tidbit as it's not
obvious to me the heater can have no water coming in but the gas can be
left running - but it makes it easier for me so I'm glad to know that.

Donna

L D'Bonnie

2008-02-10, 5:25 pm

Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator wrote:
> Can I get some quick trusty advice on a dripping gas 40 gallon hot-water
> heater?
>
> I noticed my hot-water heater leaking and my husband is out of town.
> He says wait until he comes back (1 week) but I am afraid something bad
> will happen. He also says maybe we should replace with an instant on
> tankless heater but I want to get it done today!
>
> Do you have quick advice on hot-water heaters?
>
> 1. If it's leaking cold water from the bottom but still working, is it not
> repairable (I assume it's a throwaway item).
>
> 2. It's at least as new/old as when I moved into this house around 2000 and
> it has an energy efficiency sticker so it's not that old. But, would you
> replace it with a bigger (only two people in the small house as the kids
> are gone) one or even go tankless?
>
> 3. Is it a home repair or, due to gas, is it only by a qualified pro?
>
> 4. Do most of you go to Home Depot or the like and just pick one and have
> them install it or is there a "better" way?
>
> 5. I never did anything preventative but googling talks about a sacrificial
> anode and draining; should I have done that (I'm guessing yes).
>
> 6. If we go tankless, are there "gotchas" we need to watch out for?
>
> Sorry for so many questions!
> But it would be nice to get your off-the-cuff advice again!
>
> Donna

I assume it's leaking from the body of the tank, not from a connection
or the pressure relief valve.

Chances are the heater is done. 5 year warranty?

If I's just a slow drip, and is controllable you could last a week,
but it could let go anytime.

Is it down the basement on a concrete floor with no possibility of
water damage? If not the damage bill may exceed the cost of replacing
10 heaters.

The safe bet is to call a plumber and replace the tank as soon as
possible. The labor to replace the tank with a similar unit will
likely be less than that of a tankless. Less modifications to the
water and gas lines.

Bite the bullet and take your lumps, the joys of being a home owner.

I built a new house and installed a conventional electric heater a
few years ago. At the time I couldn't justify the additional expense
of a tankless heater.

LdB

Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator

2008-02-10, 5:25 pm

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 12:09:51 -0800 (PST), N8N wrote:

> I'd pick 'em based on efficiency ratings, BTU/hr ratings, and
> price.

Hi Nate,

Good advice,

I'm on the (1-800-HOME-DEP) line waiting to ask for the all-important FHR
and EF numbers for the dozen available hot water heaters.

- 1-800-466-3337
- Press 1 for installation services
- Ask for "water heater" assistance
- Give them your zip code
- They transfer you to the water heater department
- 1-800-79DEPOT
- Press 2 for water heaters
- Press 2 for water heaters (not tankless)
- Home Depot Home Services (exclusive suppliers of GE hot water heaters)
- The operator, a David Kershaw, didn't even know what FHR stood for!
- Not a good sign ... I'm gonna call their Water Heater Services at
- 877-467-0542

I'm still waiting on the phone to get someone who knows what it is they are
selling; but this is disconcerting they don't even know the first thing
about what it is they supposedly specialize in at that number.

Donna

HeyBub

2008-02-10, 8:25 pm

Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator wrote:

> Do you have quick advice on hot-water heaters?
>
> 1. If it's leaking cold water from the bottom but still working, is
> it not repairable (I assume it's a throwaway item).

Correct. The heater may be okay but you have a leaking pipe. Improbable, but
possible.

>
> 2. It's at least as new/old as when I moved into this house around
> 2000 and it has an energy efficiency sticker so it's not that old.
> But, would you replace it with a bigger (only two people in the small
> house as the kids are gone) one or even go tankless?

Seven years can be about right for an economy model in harsh water
conditions. If the capacity has been adequate, replace it with the same. A
larger capacity model does not last longer and may introduce connection
issues (the pipes are in the wrong place).

>
> 3. Is it a home repair or, due to gas, is it only by a qualified pro?

For a traditional male with the right tools, it's a DIY. For wimps, metros,
the aged, the infirm, those too busy, or for those who know the names of
more than about six colors, it's a pro job.

>
> 4. Do most of you go to Home Depot or the like and just pick one and
> have them install it or is there a "better" way?

Water heaters are commodity items. The same model is the same model.
Installation is non-tricky - it's hard to believe even the fools selected by
HD could screw it up. After removing the old heater, you set the new one in
place and connect three pipes. You're done.

>
> 5. I never did anything preventative but googling talks about a
> sacrificial anode and draining; should I have done that (I'm guessing
> yes).

Too late, now. How often to drain (if ever) depends on the quality of your
water. Study on this later.

>
> 6. If we go tankless, are there "gotchas" we need to watch out for?

Several. You'll need at least three (kitchen, bath, and laundry). This
usually means running new electrical service to hard-to-reach places.

>
> Sorry for so many questions!
> But it would be nice to get your off-the-cuff advice again!

If you can live without hot water until your husband returns:

Drain the hot water heater:

1. Turn off the water supply valve to the water heater. There are two pipes
attached to the top, close the valve that is found on one of the pipes.
2. Turn the heater's gas valve to OFF
3. Hook up a water hose to the outlet found near the bottom of the water
heater, put the other end of the garden hose outside.
4. Turn the valve that's built into to the place on the water heater where
you hooked up the hose.
5. Open any hot-water faucet (this allows air to enter the tank).

Bob F

2008-02-10, 8:25 pm

"Edwin Pawlowski" <esp@snet.net> wrote in message news:wyGrj.11858
>
> I think that is more of an eectric thing than gas.

It applies equally to electric and gas heaters.

O.P. Don't panic over a small leak. Chances are it will survive till he gets
back just fine.

Bob

Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator

2008-02-10, 8:25 pm

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 11:19:50 -0800 (PST), Nexus7 wrote:

> I went to the HD and bought one and installed it myself. They
> sell a nice self-install kit with steel-braided lines, adapters (if
> you need them), etc. They have reasonably priced GE models, priced by
> the level of insulation, efficiency and other reasonable criteria.

Hi Nexus,
I took your lead and went to the Home Depot myself.
The guy there was very helpful; he said don't buy there.

He said write down the prices and the models and choose one.
Then, call the 800-HOME-DEPOT number to buy.

The installation is $309 & it changes the warranty period in strange ways.

BTW, according to Consumer Reports, the MOST IMPORTANT figure, the "First
Hour Rating" (FHR) was MISSING at Home Depot. So was the second most
important buying figure, the efficiency rating (EF).

This is disapointing. Home Depot talked about warranty and price and
gallonage but skipped the important criteria (according to my quick
ressearch today). So, I'm trying to put it together now so we can
comparison shop.

You had to open each and every box to get that information right off the
unit - and the orange-vested guy didn't want me to do that so may I ask
WHERE I'm supposed to get the critical numbers missing below in order to do
a proper home hot water heater installation comparison decision?

Here's what they had (price, UPC, FHR, EF, BTU, gal, Warranty):
$280, 514017, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 34K, 40gal, 3yr
$290, 509501, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 36K, 40gal, 6yr
$350, 519005, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 38K, 40gal, 9yr
$350, 431048, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 38K, 50gal, 6yr
$360, 494272, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 40K, 40gal, 6yr
$370, 551821, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 40K, 40gal, 9yr
$380, 569840, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 34K, 40gal, 6yr
$410, 431055, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 38K, 50gal, 9yr
$420, 518411, ??gal FHR, .59EF, 40K, 40gal, 12yr
$420, 494302, 68gal FHR, .??EF, 40K, 50gal, 6yr
$440, 518435, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 40K, 40gal, 12yr

Do you know where I can get the FHR and EF ratings for the Home Depot water
heaters currently on sale? (I'll call the 800 number after this message.)

Nate Nagel

2008-02-10, 8:25 pm

Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator wrote:
> On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 11:19:50 -0800 (PST), Nexus7 wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Hi Nexus,
> I took your lead and went to the Home Depot myself.
> The guy there was very helpful; he said don't buy there.
>
> He said write down the prices and the models and choose one.
> Then, call the 800-HOME-DEPOT number to buy.
>
> The installation is $309 & it changes the warranty period in strange ways.
>
> BTW, according to Consumer Reports, the MOST IMPORTANT figure, the "First
> Hour Rating" (FHR) was MISSING at Home Depot. So was the second most
> important buying figure, the efficiency rating (EF).
>
> This is disapointing. Home Depot talked about warranty and price and
> gallonage but skipped the important criteria (according to my quick
> ressearch today). So, I'm trying to put it together now so we can
> comparison shop.
>
> You had to open each and every box to get that information right off the
> unit - and the orange-vested guy didn't want me to do that so may I ask
> WHERE I'm supposed to get the critical numbers missing below in order to do
> a proper home hot water heater installation comparison decision?
>
> Here's what they had (price, UPC, FHR, EF, BTU, gal, Warranty):
> $280, 514017, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 34K, 40gal, 3yr
> $290, 509501, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 36K, 40gal, 6yr
> $350, 519005, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 38K, 40gal, 9yr
> $350, 431048, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 38K, 50gal, 6yr
> $360, 494272, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 40K, 40gal, 6yr
> $370, 551821, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 40K, 40gal, 9yr
> $380, 569840, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 34K, 40gal, 6yr
> $410, 431055, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 38K, 50gal, 9yr
> $420, 518411, ??gal FHR, .59EF, 40K, 40gal, 12yr
> $420, 494302, 68gal FHR, .??EF, 40K, 50gal, 6yr
> $440, 518435, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 40K, 40gal, 12yr
>
> Do you know where I can get the FHR and EF ratings for the Home Depot water
> heaters currently on sale? (I'll call the 800 number after this message.)

I think the ones HD sells are made by GE, try their web site.

Also since you have gas, make sure you buy a unit the same height or
shorter than your existing unit, unless you have a flue that you are
certain you can shorten safely (that is, maintaining a reasonable slope
where it runs horizontally if anywhere) don't want to install the new
heater and then find you have to rip it out because it's backdrafting!

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator

2008-02-10, 8:25 pm

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 17:48:03 -0600, HeyBub wrote:

> I thought the around $300 installation price they had wanted
> wasn't unreasonable. IIRC, it was around $700 installed next day for
> their top-of-the-line heater.

Hi guys,

Thanks for all the advice. I'm making progress in the past few hours,
learning more than I ever knew about my hot water heater!

A call to the Home Depot Water Heater Servicing Center in 'da Bronx
(877-467-0542) uncovered the following choices by price installed (sans
about $55 for earthquake straps & another $50 for a local permit, if
needed) by SKU, FHR, EF, Gal, BTUs, & warranty:

$608 SG40T12AVH/182-755 72galFHR 0.59EF ??KBTU 40gal 6-yr(drain 2x/year)
$658 SG50T12AVH/183-717 80galFHR 0.58EF ??KBTU 50gal 6-yr(drain 2x/year)
$677 SG40T12AVH/182-786 72galFHR 0.59EF ??KBTU 40gal 9-yr(self cleaning)
$718 SG50T12AVH/184-076 80galFHR 0.58EF ??KBTU 50gal 9-yr(self cleaning)
$728 SG40T12AVH/182-953 68galFHR 0.59EF ??KBTU 40gal 12-yr(self cleaning)
$783 SG50T12AVH/185-191 83galFHR 0.58EF ??KBTU 50gal 12-yr(self cleaning)

Keeping in mind my existing (leaking) 65 gallon First Hour Rated 40 gallon
35,000 BTU gas-fired hot water heater is roughly equivalent to the first
one (i.e., least expensive) on the list, it looks like I can't go too far
wrong with any of these.

Do my assumptions (focusing on the cost per FHR) make sense moving forward?

Donna

Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator

2008-02-10, 8:25 pm

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 15:58:35 -0600, L D'Bonnie wrote:

> Is it down the basement on a concrete floor with no possibility of
> water damage?

It's in a concrete-floored garage on a wooden pedestal so there's not much
by way of water damage that can occur if the leak were to exascerbate in
the next few days.

> The safe bet is to call a plumber and replace the tank as soon as
> possible. The labor to replace the tank with a similar unit will
> likely be less than that of a tankless.
I've since given up on tankless for the retrofit costs. The labor at Home
Depot seems to be $309 to hook up the new hot water heater and haul away
the old one; plus $55 for earthquake straps; plus $50 for permits; plus
taxes of roughly 9% on the parts and service.

> Bite the bullet and take your lumps, the joys of being a home owner.
Here are the comparisons I can generate so far, based on what Home Depot
says at their Bronx New York Water Heater Servicing Center.

The prices below are installed but sans earthquake straps, permits, &
taxes. Note that the Home Depot water heater servicing center had no
figures for the BTUs (they said they weren't important). They mostly pushed
warranty but I did my comparison by cost per First Hour Rating.

Home Depot Water Heater Servicing Center (877-467-0542)
by price (installed), SKU, FHR, EF, BTU, volume, and warranty:
$608 SG40T12AVH/182-755 72galFHR 0.59EF ??KBTU 40gal 6-yr(drain 2x/year)
$658 SG50T12AVH/183-717 80galFHR 0.58EF ??KBTU 50gal 6-yr(drain 2x/year)
$677 SG40T12AVH/182-786 72galFHR 0.59EF ??KBTU 40gal 9-yr(self cleaning)
$718 SG50T12AVH/184-076 80galFHR 0.58EF ??KBTU 50gal 9-yr(self cleaning)
$728 SG40T12AVH/182-953 68galFHR 0.59EF ??KBTU 40gal 12-yr(self cleaning)
$783 SG50T12AVH/185-191 83galFHR 0.58EF ??KBTU 50gal 12-yr(self cleaning)

Here are the best numbers I could find by going to the local Home Depot.
Notice the only way to get the all-important First Hour Rating was to open
each and every box which the floorperson balked at so I don't know that or
the Energy Factor.

Here is what was at the store by price, UPC, FHR, ER, BTU, volume, &
warranty:
$280, 514017, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 34K, 40gal, 3yr
$290, 509501, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 36K, 40gal, 6yr
$350, 519005, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 38K, 40gal, 9yr
$350, 431048, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 38K, 50gal, 6yr
$360, 494272, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 40K, 40gal, 6yr
$370, 551821, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 40K, 40gal, 9yr
$380, 569840, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 34K, 40gal, 6yr
$410, 431055, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 38K, 50gal, 9yr
$420, 518411, ??gal FHR, .59EF, 40K, 40gal, 12yr
$420, 494302, 68gal FHR, .??EF, 40K, 50gal, 6yr
$440, 518435, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 40K, 50gal, 12yr

Do any of these choices seem most reasonable to replace my existing 65
gallon First Hour Rating, ??EF, 40 gallon, 35,000 BTU 50" tall by 18"
diameter gas-fired shelf-mounted earthquake-strapped hot water heater?

Donna

Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator

2008-02-10, 8:25 pm

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 19:41:50 -0500, Nate Nagel wrote:

> Also since you have gas, make sure you buy a unit the same height or
> shorter than your existing unit, unless you have a flue that you are
> certain you can shorten safely (that is, maintaining a reasonable slope
> where it runs horizontally if anywhere) don't want to install the new
> heater and then find you have to rip it out because it's backdrafting!

Hi Nate,

I should note the new hot water heaters are taller (about 58 and 59 inches
versus 50 inches for the existing water heater) and wider (about 19.75 to
21.75 inches in diameter as opposed to about 18 inches for the existing hot
water heater).

The guy on the phone said it wouldn't be a problem. There is about an inch
of space between the top of the existing 50" tall water heater and the
3-inch or so wide vertical vent pipe with a hat on top to gather in the
fumes (I guess).

The hot water coiled pipes are about a foot long currently and bent like a
U shape.

Donna

Nate Nagel

2008-02-10, 8:25 pm

Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator wrote:
> On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 19:41:50 -0500, Nate Nagel wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Hi Nate,
>
> I should note the new hot water heaters are taller (about 58 and 59 inches
> versus 50 inches for the existing water heater) and wider (about 19.75 to
> 21.75 inches in diameter as opposed to about 18 inches for the existing hot
> water heater).

as long as you have the space...

>
> The guy on the phone said it wouldn't be a problem. There is about an inch
> of space between the top of the existing 50" tall water heater and the
> 3-inch or so wide vertical vent pipe with a hat on top to gather in the
> fumes (I guess).

that gap is normal, and you say "vertical" making me think that you
could just cut some off and still be OK, yes?

>
> The hot water coiled pipes are about a foot long currently and bent like a
> U shape.

you mean more like an "S" laying on its side? That's good. those bends
act like a heat trap, and most installers don't bother to put them in.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator

2008-02-10, 8:25 pm

> Do any of these choices seem most reasonable to replace my existing 65
> gallon First Hour Rating, ??EF, 40 gallon, 35,000 BTU 50" tall by 18"
> diameter gas-fired shelf-mounted earthquake-strapped hot water heater?

It would be nice if there were freeware to do all these calculations for
us! (I'll ask the wonderful folks on the freeware newsgroup if they have
any "special" cost-per-FHR calculators other than standard calculators).

Here is what the choices seem to be by cost per FHR (which seems like the
only reasonable comparison).

Home Depot Water Heater Servicing Center (877-467-0542)
by cost per FHR given the price (installed), price for the heater, SKU,
FHR, EF, BTU, volume, and warranty:

$4.15 $608 $299 182-755 72galFHR 0.59EF ??KBTU 40gal 6-yr(drain 2x/year)
$4.36 $658 $349 183-717 80galFHR 0.58EF ??KBTU 50gal 6-yr(drain 2x/year)
$5.11 $677 $368 182-786 72galFHR 0.59EF ??KBTU 40gal 9-yr(self cleaning)
$5.11 $718 $409 184-076 80galFHR 0.58EF ??KBTU 50gal 9-yr(self cleaning)
$6.16 $728 $419 182-953 68galFHR 0.59EF ??KBTU 40gal 12-yr(self cleaning)
$4.51 $783 $374 185-191 83galFHR 0.58EF ??KBTU 50gal 12-yr(self cleaning)

Given the cost per FHR for the Home Depot hot water heaters above, it seems
like the best bet, economically and maintenance wise, is the $5.11 per
first hour rating 72-gallon FHR 40-gallon $368 dollar ($677 + $55
earthquake straps + $50 permit fee + ~$50 local taxes) GE
SG40T12AVH/182-786 hot water heater.

Do you agree?
That is, does this cost per FHR comparison seem logical to you?

It would be nice if there were freeware to do these calculations for us so
I'm including the freeware team on this (they helped me years ago with a
freeware garage-door torsion-spring calculator which was utterly fantastic
- maybe they have similar freeware calculators for home water heater
replacement comparisons!).

Donna

Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator

2008-02-10, 8:25 pm

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 20:40:55 -0500, Nate Nagel wrote:
> that gap is normal, and you say "vertical" making me think that you
> could just cut some off and still be OK, yes?

Hi Nate,
Thanks for asking. I appreciate the help.
Since the hot water heater is in a garage, there is a foot and a half
"bench" it's sitting on, then the 50 inches of hot water heater, then at
least a few feet of vertical pipe to get near the cieling which is way up
there.

So, I would guess they can cut off 8 or 9 inches and the vertical
three-inch wide pipe would still be a few feet vertically.

I'm a bit more worried about the hot-water pipes as the S-shaped coiled
pipes are only about a foot long but if we take 9 inches out of that, it
leaves them only being about 3 inches long which doesn't seem like enough
for an "S" dont'cha think?

Donna

Nate Nagel

2008-02-10, 8:25 pm

Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator wrote:
> On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 20:40:55 -0500, Nate Nagel wrote:
>
>
>
> Hi Nate,
> Thanks for asking. I appreciate the help.
> Since the hot water heater is in a garage, there is a foot and a half
> "bench" it's sitting on, then the 50 inches of hot water heater, then at
> least a few feet of vertical pipe to get near the cieling which is way up
> there.
>
> So, I would guess they can cut off 8 or 9 inches and the vertical
> three-inch wide pipe would still be a few feet vertically.

that's fine, no worries there then.

> I'm a bit more worried about the hot-water pipes as the S-shaped coiled
> pipes are only about a foot long but if we take 9 inches out of that, it
> leaves them only being about 3 inches long which doesn't seem like enough
> for an "S" dont'cha think?
>
> Donna

I wouldn't worry about that at all. you can just take it out of the
copper hard lines if you have to. (I'm assuming that you're referring
to corrugated flexible copper connectors above.)

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

Malcolm Hoar

2008-02-10, 8:25 pm

In article <VTNrj.4859$uE.2492@newssvr22.news.prodigy.net>, "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" <donna.ohl@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>Home Depot Water Heater Servicing Center (877-467-0542)
>by cost per FHR given the price (installed), price for the heater, SKU,
>FHR, EF, BTU, volume, and warranty:
>
>$4.15 $608 $299 182-755 72galFHR 0.59EF ??KBTU 40gal 6-yr(drain 2x/year)
>$4.36 $658 $349 183-717 80galFHR 0.58EF ??KBTU 50gal 6-yr(drain 2x/year)
>$5.11 $677 $368 182-786 72galFHR 0.59EF ??KBTU 40gal 9-yr(self cleaning)
>$5.11 $718 $409 184-076 80galFHR 0.58EF ??KBTU 50gal 9-yr(self cleaning)
>$6.16 $728 $419 182-953 68galFHR 0.59EF ??KBTU 40gal 12-yr(self cleaning)
>$4.51 $783 $374 185-191 83galFHR 0.58EF ??KBTU 50gal 12-yr(self cleaning)
>
>Given the cost per FHR for the Home Depot hot water heaters above, it seems
>like the best bet, economically and maintenance wise, is the $5.11 per
>first hour rating 72-gallon FHR 40-gallon $368 dollar ($677 + $55
>earthquake straps + $50 permit fee + ~$50 local taxes) GE
>SG40T12AVH/182-786 hot water heater.
>
>Do you agree?
>That is, does this cost per FHR comparison seem logical to you?

It's a useful tool but not the whole story, especially in
what I gather will be a low usage situation. That would
steer me to a small capacity heater and one with the very
best insulation I could find. A longer warranty is good
provided you're not paying an unreasonable premium for it.

In a low usage situation I would try and establish the
R-values of the insulation in each product before making
a final decision.

Also take into account the "quality" of your local water.
If harsh, and you want a long life, consider a heater with
a stainless steel tank (although there's a significant
price premium).

--
|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|
| Malcolm Hoar "The more I practice, the luckier I get". |
| malch@malch.com Gary Player. |
| http://www.malch.com/ Shpx gur PQN. |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Gary Heston

2008-02-10, 9:25 pm

In article <TuNrj.4853$uE.1057@newssvr22.news.prodigy.net>,
Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator <donna.ohl@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
[ ... ]
>Here is what was at the store by price, UPC, FHR, ER, BTU, volume, &
>warranty:
[ ... ]
>$350, 519005, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 38K, 40gal, 9yr
[ ... ]
>$370, 551821, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 40K, 40gal, 9yr
[ ... ]

>Do any of these choices seem most reasonable to replace my existing 65
>gallon First Hour Rating, ??EF, 40 gallon, 35,000 BTU 50" tall by 18"
>diameter gas-fired shelf-mounted earthquake-strapped hot water heater?

The two above should equal or exceed the FHR of your existing heater.
That's mainly a function of BTUs, so the second of the two above will
be slightly better; of course, it'll burn a bit more gas. If that's a
concern, go with the first.

Gary

--
Gary Heston gheston@hiwaay.net http://www.thebreastcancersite.com/

We live in amazing times, when one person can invent both the Internet
and global warming, then get awarded a "peace prize".

Susan Bugher

2008-02-10, 9:25 pm

Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator wrote:

[color=darkred]
> It would be nice if there were freeware to do all these calculations for
> us! (I'll ask the wonderful folks on the freeware newsgroup if they have
> any "special" cost-per-FHR calculators other than standard calculators).

Nope.

Susan

Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator

2008-02-10, 9:25 pm

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 21:12:41 -0500, Nate Nagel wrote:

> I wouldn't worry about that at all. you can just take it out of the
> copper hard lines if you have to. (I'm assuming that you're referring
> to corrugated flexible copper connectors above.)

Hi Nate,
Yes, I was referring to the corrugated flexible copper pipes connected to
the rigid galvanized steel pipes coming out of the wall near the garage
ceiling.

I guess they can cut the galvanized pipes because they are at least 18
inches or so vertical.

But I don't know if Home Depot includes cutting the galvanized pipes in the
cost. Should I call them back and order a shorter (50 inch vs 58 inch) hot
water heater so as to preserve the S coil without having to cut the
galvanized steel water pipes?

Donna

Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator

2008-02-10, 9:25 pm

On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 01:09:43 GMT, Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator
wrote:
> A call to the Home Depot Water Heater Servicing Center in 'da Bronx
> (877-467-0542) uncovered the following choices by price installed (sans
> about $55 for earthquake straps & another $50 for a local permit, if
> needed) by SKU, FHR, EF, Gal, BTUs, & warranty:
>
> $608 SG40T12AVH/182-755 72galFHR 0.59EF ??KBTU 40gal 6-yr(drain 2x/year)
> $658 SG50T12AVH/183-717 80galFHR 0.58EF ??KBTU 50gal 6-yr(drain 2x/year)
> $677 SG40T12AVH/182-786 72galFHR 0.59EF ??KBTU 40gal 9-yr(self cleaning)
> $718 SG50T12AVH/184-076 80galFHR 0.58EF ??KBTU 50gal 9-yr(self cleaning)
> $728 SG40T12AVH/182-953 68galFHR 0.59EF ??KBTU 40gal 12-yr(self cleaning)
> $783 SG50T12AVH/185-191 83galFHR 0.58EF ??KBTU 50gal 12-yr(self cleaning)

Does anyone know if these guys "bargain"?

That is, if I call the Sears Kenmore Water Heater Center 1-800-877-6420,
and give them the Home Depot price - would they modify their prices in the
call? Does that happen?

I'd try it but when I thought about it today, the Kenmore folks were
closed.

So, I figured I'd ask if it helps to "bargain" with the online folks?
Anyone know if they give "instant discounts"?

Donna

Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator

2008-02-10, 9:25 pm

On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 02:26:24 -0000, Gary Heston wrote:
> That's mainly a function of BTUs, so the second of the two above will
> be slightly better; of course, it'll burn a bit more gas. If that's a
> concern, go with the first.

I'm still looking up ways to make a smart decision.
One thing I've noticed is that the efficiency factors I've been quoted from
Home Depot stink (basically 58 to 59 percent).

I called PG&E and they pointed me to a $30 rebate but only for residential
gas water heaters of an EF of 62% or greater.
http://www.pge.com/res/rebates/gas_electric_storage/

Does anyone know where to find a 40gallon or 50gallon hot water heater with
that efficiency rating at a major chain (sears or home depot or ???).
http://www.pge.com/res/rebates/

Donna

Nate Nagel

2008-02-10, 9:25 pm

Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator wrote:
> On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 21:12:41 -0500, Nate Nagel wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Hi Nate,
> Yes, I was referring to the corrugated flexible copper pipes connected to
> the rigid galvanized steel pipes coming out of the wall near the garage
> ceiling.
>
> I guess they can cut the galvanized pipes because they are at least 18
> inches or so vertical.
>
> But I don't know if Home Depot includes cutting the galvanized pipes in the
> cost. Should I call them back and order a shorter (50 inch vs 58 inch) hot
> water heater so as to preserve the S coil without having to cut the
> galvanized steel water pipes?
>
> Donna

I wouldn't bother. If the installers can't deal with cutting your water
pipes shorter, you shouldn't let them install your heater (you have
galvanized water lines? how old is this house, anyway? Mine was built
in '48 and has copper.)

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

James Sweet

2008-02-11, 3:25 am

>
> Here is what was at the store by price, UPC, FHR, ER, BTU, volume, &
> warranty:
> $280, 514017, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 34K, 40gal, 3yr
> $290, 509501, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 36K, 40gal, 6yr
> $350, 519005, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 38K, 40gal, 9yr
> $350, 431048, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 38K, 50gal, 6yr
> $360, 494272, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 40K, 40gal, 6yr
> $370, 551821, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 40K, 40gal, 9yr
> $380, 569840, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 34K, 40gal, 6yr
> $410, 431055, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 38K, 50gal, 9yr
> $420, 518411, ??gal FHR, .59EF, 40K, 40gal, 12yr
> $420, 494302, 68gal FHR, .??EF, 40K, 50gal, 6yr
> $440, 518435, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 40K, 50gal, 12yr
>
> Do any of these choices seem most reasonable to replace my existing 65
> gallon First Hour Rating, ??EF, 40 gallon, 35,000 BTU 50" tall by 18"
> diameter gas-fired shelf-mounted earthquake-strapped hot water heater?
>

The only number that really matters to you is the capacity, get one close to
the original capacity and assuming you were happy with the performance
before, you should be with the new one. I recently replaced the water heater
in my mom's house with the last one on the list there, it was 20 bucks more
for double the warranty, seems like a no brainer. Can't advise much on the
labor cost as I've always done all that stuff myself.

James Sweet

2008-02-11, 3:25 am

"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" <donna.ohl@sbcglobal.net> wrote in
message news:r7Prj.9814$Ch6.4124@newssvr11.news.prodigy.net...
> On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 02:26:24 -0000, Gary Heston wrote:
>
> I'm still looking up ways to make a smart decision.
> One thing I've noticed is that the efficiency factors I've been quoted
> from
> Home Depot stink (basically 58 to 59 percent).
>
> I called PG&E and they pointed me to a $30 rebate but only for residential
> gas water heaters of an EF of 62% or greater.
> http://www.pge.com/res/rebates/gas_electric_storage/
>
> Does anyone know where to find a 40gallon or 50gallon hot water heater
> with
> that efficiency rating at a major chain (sears or home depot or ???).
> http://www.pge.com/res/rebates/
>
> Donna

Call around and ask, there's only a few different companies that make these
things, others just stick their name on them. As far as I know, the
efficiency of gas water heaters doesn't vary much from one to the next
unless you go tankless.

HeyBub

2008-02-11, 3:25 am

Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator wrote:
> I've since given up on tankless for the retrofit costs. The labor at
> Home Depot seems to be $309 to hook up the new hot water heater and
> haul away the old one; plus $55 for earthquake straps; plus $50 for
> permits; plus taxes of roughly 9% on the parts and service.

Earthquake straps? In the Bronx? What a rip-off. I haven't been able to find
an earthquake in that area larger than a 2.6 (roughly equivalent to closing
a drawer). You have to get to 4.0 before there's any damage that's even
noticable. (The WTC collapse registered 2.3.)

$50 permit? Call city hall and see if a permit is required.

As for charging you to haul the old one off, forget it. Just put the defunct
heater on the curb and the urban faries will scoop it up during the night
(they sell them to scrap metal places or make hinges for the doors on their
little Leprechaun houses, I forget which.).

>
> Here are the comparisons I can generate so far, based on what Home
> Depot says at their Bronx New York Water Heater Servicing Center.
>
> The prices below are installed but sans earthquake straps, permits, &
> taxes. Note that the Home Depot water heater servicing center had no
> figures for the BTUs (they said they weren't important). They mostly
> pushed warranty but I did my comparison by cost per First Hour Rating.
>
> Home Depot Water Heater Servicing Center (877-467-0542)
> by price (installed), SKU, FHR, EF, BTU, volume, and warranty:
> $608 SG40T12AVH/182-755 72galFHR 0.59EF ??KBTU 40gal 6-yr(drain
> 2x/year) $658 SG50T12AVH/183-717 80galFHR 0.58EF ??KBTU 50gal
> 6-yr(drain 2x/year) $677 SG40T12AVH/182-786 72galFHR 0.59EF ??KBTU
> 40gal 9-yr(self cleaning) $718 SG50T12AVH/184-076 80galFHR 0.58EF
> ??KBTU 50gal 9-yr(self cleaning) $728 SG40T12AVH/182-953 68galFHR
> 0.59EF ??KBTU 40gal 12-yr(self cleaning) $783 SG50T12AVH/185-191
> 83galFHR 0.58EF ??KBTU 50gal 12-yr(self cleaning)
>
> Here are the best numbers I could find by going to the local Home
> Depot. Notice the only way to get the all-important First Hour Rating
> was to open each and every box which the floorperson balked at so I
> don't know that or the Energy Factor.
>
> Here is what was at the store by price, UPC, FHR, ER, BTU, volume, &
> warranty:
> $280, 514017, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 34K, 40gal, 3yr
> $290, 509501, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 36K, 40gal, 6yr
> $350, 519005, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 38K, 40gal, 9yr
> $350, 431048, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 38K, 50gal, 6yr
> $360, 494272, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 40K, 40gal, 6yr
> $370, 551821, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 40K, 40gal, 9yr
> $380, 569840, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 34K, 40gal, 6yr
> $410, 431055, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 38K, 50gal, 9yr
> $420, 518411, ??gal FHR, .59EF, 40K, 40gal, 12yr
> $420, 494302, 68gal FHR, .??EF, 40K, 50gal, 6yr
> $440, 518435, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 40K, 50gal, 12yr
>
> Do any of these choices seem most reasonable to replace my existing 65
> gallon First Hour Rating, ??EF, 40 gallon, 35,000 BTU 50" tall by 18"
> diameter gas-fired shelf-mounted earthquake-strapped hot water heater?
>
> Donna

Edwin Pawlowski

2008-02-11, 3:25 am

"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" <donna.ohl@sbcglobal.net> wrote in
message
> I guess they can cut the galvanized pipes because they are at least 18
> inches or so vertical.
>
> But I don't know if Home Depot includes cutting the galvanized pipes in
> the
> cost. Should I call them back and order a shorter (50 inch vs 58 inch) hot
> water heater so as to preserve the S coil without having to cut the
> galvanized steel water pipes?
>
> Donna

If you have galvanized water pipes you may run into additional cost. You
may want to consider re-plumbing the house too if that is what you have.

Nate Nagel

2008-02-11, 3:25 am

Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator wrote:
> On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 02:26:24 -0000, Gary Heston wrote:
>
>
>
> I'm still looking up ways to make a smart decision.
> One thing I've noticed is that the efficiency factors I've been quoted from
> Home Depot stink (basically 58 to 59 percent).
>
> I called PG&E and they pointed me to a $30 rebate but only for residential
> gas water heaters of an EF of 62% or greater.
> http://www.pge.com/res/rebates/gas_electric_storage/
>
> Does anyone know where to find a 40gallon or 50gallon hot water heater with
> that efficiency rating at a major chain (sears or home depot or ???).
> http://www.pge.com/res/rebates/
>
> Donna

Rheem should have a few models that qualify, and they're a pretty common
brand. Also see if any State or Craftmaster models meet your needs;
AFAICT those three make up the vast majority of the water heater market;
many other brands are just relabels of those three. There's another one
that you can't buy direct (only sold to pros) but I can't recall the
name now.

BTW, you're getting all obsessive compulsive about this. I like you

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

Nexus7

2008-02-11, 3:25 am

On Feb 10, 6:29 pm, "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator"
<donna....@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> The installation is $309 & it changes the warranty period in strange ways.
>
> BTW, according to Consumer Reports, the MOST IMPORTANT figure, the "First
> Hour Rating" (FHR) was MISSING at Home Depot. So was the second most
>...
> $350, 519005, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 38K, 40gal, 9yr
> $420, 518411, ??gal FHR, .59EF, 40K, 40gal, 12yr
> Do you know where I can get the FHR and EF ratings for the Home Depot water
> heaters currently on sale? (I'll call the 800 number after this message.)

I'm not sure that the FHR is really all that essential. The hot water
available in the first hour is going to depend upon the following -
inlet water temp, burner BTU/hr input and efficiency, tank size,
outlet temp. Once you set a certain outlet temp (using the dial in the
front), you can get an idea of the FHR with the efficiency and
burner input. I see however that your table only has efficiency for
only 1 model, although it has burner BTU for all. I have the 9 yr 40
gal model, its efficiency rating is 0.59 per the label. I was able to
find a little more info on the net using the model number (not UPC).
The model number on mine is PG40T09AVH00. I believe the 12 yr model's
number starts with 'S'.

Oh, I just saw that you can get the efficiency and burner BTU numbers
at the HD web site. Put in your zip code, then it shows more models.

If you are getting the thing installed, and by HD, I wasn't aware you
could pick the model; they only offered me the 12 yr. IIRC, the
warranty lengths increase if they install it?

Oh, just to muddy things up a bit, I remember once I has bought and
installed the heater from HD, I had looked at the Sears site, and
found a minor advantage to buying there. I can't remember why.
However, models, etc. change quite often, so I don't think that
difference would be still valid.

Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator

2008-02-11, 3:25 am

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 22:32:43 -0500, Nate Nagel wrote:
Hi Nate and others,
I appreciate the help.
One thing that confuses me to no end is this EFFICIENCY thing.

If both a 50 gallon and 40 gallon water heater has the same 59 percent
efficiency factor ... do they cost the SAME to heat?

Or does the 50 gallon water heater actually cost more even if it's the same
efficiency?

The reason I ask is I assumed they cost the same to operate but someone
said the smaller water heater will cost less to operate even if the
efficiency factor is the same.

Can someone who understands this clarify if a larger heater truly costs
more to operate than a smaller volume heater even if the efficiency factor
is the same?

Donna

hallerb@aol.com

2008-02-11, 3:25 am

> Can someone who understands this clarify if a larger heater truly costs
> more to operate than a smaller volume heater even if the efficiency factor
> is the same?
>
> Donna

no larger heater costs no more to heat the same amount of water.

if you call a real plumbing store AO SMITH sells a 96% efficent
condensing hot water tank but i dont know the cost.........

2008-02-11, 3:25 am

"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" <donna.ohl@sbcglobal.net> wrote in
message news:0GPrj.11942$hI1.2983@nlpi061.nbdc.sbc.com...
> On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 22:32:43 -0500, Nate Nagel wrote:
> Hi Nate and others,
> I appreciate the help.
> One thing that confuses me to no end is this EFFICIENCY thing.
>
> If both a 50 gallon and 40 gallon water heater has the same 59 percent
> efficiency factor ... do they cost the SAME to heat?
>
> Or does the 50 gallon water heater actually cost more even if it's the
> same
> efficiency?

Heating less water costs less, even with equally efficient heaters.

Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator

2008-02-11, 3:25 am

On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 03:28:11 GMT, James Sweet wrote:
On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 03:28:11 GMT, James Sweet wrote:
> The only number that really matters to you is the capacity

Hi James,
I don't wish to argue and I certainly appreciate any help but I think
that's bad advice based on what I read.

For example, look here:
http://www.candcheat.com/webapp/GetPage?pid=149

Where it says:
Although many consumers make water heater purchase decisions based only on
the size of the storage tank, the first-hour rating (FHR), provided on the
Energy Guide label, is actually more important. The FHR is a measure of how
much hot water the heater will deliver during a busy hour. The FHR is
required by law to appear on the unit's Energy Guide label. Therefore,
before you buy a water heater, estimate your household's peak-hour demand
and look for a unit with an FHR in that range. And beware that a larger
tank doesn't necessarily mean a higher FHR.

The point is that the volume of the water heater is, apparently,
meaningless from a standpoint of delivering enough hot water to meet our
needs. The volume is merely (apparently) a starting point - just like the
warranty is as meaningless as the volume.

So, it seems, based on my research, that to buy by volume and warranty are
exactly what the manufacturers want you to do to keep you as far away from
meaningful critera as possible.

What's really important, it seems, is the FHR and the EF. The only thing
I'm really confused about is whether two equal efficiency (to simplify the
argument) hot water heaters of two different sizes cost the same or
different amounts.

Do you know?

Donna

Malcolm Hoar

2008-02-11, 3:25 am

In article <0GPrj.11942$hI1.2983@nlpi061.nbdc.sbc.com>, "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" <donna.ohl@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 22:32:43 -0500, Nate Nagel wrote:
>Hi Nate and others,
>I appreciate the help.
>One thing that confuses me to no end is this EFFICIENCY thing.
>
>If both a 50 gallon and 40 gallon water heater has the same 59 percent
>efficiency factor ... do they cost the SAME to heat?

Nope.

>Or does the 50 gallon water heater actually cost more even if it's the same
>efficiency?

Yup.

>The reason I ask is I assumed they cost the same to operate but someone
>said the smaller water heater will cost less to operate even if the
>efficiency factor is the same.

The smaller heater will be cheaper to run -- but it may not
provide enough hot water when you need it.

But the difference (between 40 and 50 gal) isn't going to be
that great provided the heater has good insulation.

The energy factor tells you how well much of the gas is
converted into hot water. A low rating on a gas heater
means lots of therms (energy) are going up the flue.

>Can someone who understands this clarify if a larger heater truly costs
>more to operate than a smaller volume heater even if the efficiency factor
>is the same?

If your current heater is 40gal and meets your demands, I
see absolutely no reason to upgrade to a 50gal tank.

I'm in Northern CA and a 50 gal tank is just about adequate
for my home -- with 2500 sq ft, two adults and three kids.
We run a little low on hot water if everyone takes a shower
or bath in really quick succession while doing laundry.
It's a very minor problem about once a year. 99% of the
time, 50 gals is just fine.

--
|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|
| Malcolm Hoar "The more I practice, the luckier I get". |
| malch@malch.com Gary Player. |
| http://www.malch.com/ Shpx gur PQN. |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Rick Blaine

2008-02-11, 3:25 am

"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" <donna.ohl@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>One thing that confuses me to no end is this EFFICIENCY thing.
>
>If both a 50 gallon and 40 gallon water heater has the same 59 percent
>efficiency factor ... do they cost the SAME to heat?
>

For the same water use, yes. Efficiency refers to non-electric heaters
(electrics are 100% efficient), and accounts for the heat loss up the vent pipe.
In other words, heat that doesn't heat the water.

>Or does the 50 gallon water heater actually cost more even if it's the same
>efficiency?
>

Not to heat the water, but over the lifetime, yes.

>The reason I ask is I assumed they cost the same to operate but someone
>said the smaller water heater will cost less to operate even if the
>efficiency factor is the same.
>

True.

>Can someone who understands this clarify if a larger heater truly costs
>more to operate than a smaller volume heater even if the efficiency factor
>is the same?

Although both units will use the same amount of energy to heat water, the larger
heater has a larger tank, which in turn means it has more surface exposed to the
outside. The greater the surface area, the greater the heat loss when you aren't
using water, which means the larger heater will use more energy to maintain the
hot water.

Now, if you live north of the Mason Dixon line and your water heater is inside
the house, then that isn't a total loss as you heat that escapes goes to warm
your house. It only becomes a problem when you want to run the A/C.

OTOH, if you live south of the Mason Dixon line or your water heater is in the
garage, then yes, you will pay a little more to run a 50 gal heater than a 40
gal. one. Is it significant? Look at the energy tag on the two heaters, but I
suspect the difference is less than $20/year. OTOH, you may find the larger unit
has better insulation, which may compensate.

Rick Blaine

2008-02-11, 3:25 am

"mc" <look@www.ai.uga.edu.for.address> wrote:

>Heating less water costs less, even with equally efficient heaters.

Sigh. Absolutely true and totally meaningless within the context of this
discussion. Oh wait! This is usenet...

Hint: Direct energy cost is based on _use_ and efficiency, not _capacity_ and
efficiency.

Malcolm Hoar

2008-02-11, 3:25 am

In article <HXPrj.11943$hI1.4914@nlpi061.nbdc.sbc.com>, "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" <donna.ohl@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>What's really important, it seems, is the FHR and the EF.

At the risk of repeating myself... and the insulation.

Think about it. How many hours per day do you actually spend
with the hot water faucets turned on?

The tank is "leaking" heat 24 hours per day, 7 days a week.
A well insulated tank will store the energy you used and
paid for. A poorly insulated tank will throw it away.

--
|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|
| Malcolm Hoar "The more I practice, the luckier I get". |
| malch@malch.com Gary Player. |
| http://www.malch.com/ Shpx gur PQN. |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator

2008-02-11, 3:25 am

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 23:10:47 -0500, mc wrote:

>
> Heating less water costs less, even with equally efficient heaters.

Are you sure?

Look at what this energy page says about the Efficiency Factor:
http://www.friendlyplumber.com/plum...ter_energy.html

The "energy factor [is the] number of cycles that can be completed w/ one
kilowatt-hour of electricity".

If that's true, then it's independent of the VOLUME of the water heater.

So, if I read that correctly, a 40-gallon water heater with an EF of .58
takes roughly about 2 KWH of power to heat once while a 50-gallon water
heater with the same EF would take EXACTLY the same amount of power to heat
all 50 gallons.

Can someone check my math on that web page and report back if I understand
incorrectly? If we turn off our brains, of course 40 gallons would cost
less to heat than 50 gallons; but if we think, it might not be so.

Can you help me think about this properly?
What does the Efficiency Factor say about costs for two different sized
tanks with the same efficiency factor?

Donna

Rick Blaine

2008-02-11, 3:25 am

malch@malch.com (Malcolm Hoar) wrote:

>
>Nope.

Yes they do. Basic physics says that it takes the same amount of energy to heat
the same water, regardless of the container size.

>
>
>Yup.

But not because it takes more energy to heat the water, because the heat loss
from the tank is slightly higher.

Edwin Pawlowski

2008-02-11, 3:25 am

"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" <donna.ohl@sbcglobal.net> wrote in
message
>
> Does anyone know where to find a 40gallon or 50gallon hot water heater
> with
> that efficiency rating at a major chain (sears or home depot or ???).
> http://www.pge.com/res/rebates/
>
> Donna

Why a major chain? They don't give very good service. Try a local plumber
and plumbing supply house for a better deal and usually better units.

Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator

2008-02-11, 3:25 am

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 21:20:35 -0700, Rick Blaine wrote:
> Hint: Direct energy cost is based on _use_ and efficiency, not _capacity_ and
> efficiency.

Good point ... dead capacity vs active usage!

Darn. I wish I understood this EF thing better, especially given two
identical situations where the *only* difference is the CAPACITY.

Based on what you implied, if I inferred correctly, if the USAGE was
exactly the same for two water heaters with the same EF, then the costs to
operate a 50-gallon water heater would be EXACTLY the same as the costs to
operate a 100-gallon water heater (if the Efficiency Factor were the same
for both).

Did I understand the math (and your point) correctly?

Donna

2008-02-11, 3:25 am

"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" <donna.ohl@sbcglobal.net> wrote in
message news:X5Qrj.11945$hI1.9847@nlpi061.nbdc.sbc.com...
> On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 23:10:47 -0500, mc wrote:
>
>
> Are you sure?
>
> Look at what this energy page says about the Efficiency Factor:
> http://www.friendlyplumber.com/plum...ter_energy.html
>
> The "energy factor [is the] number of cycles that can be completed w/ one
> kilowatt-hour of electricity".
>
> If that's true, then it's independent of the VOLUME of the water heater.

Strange. Then it isn't a measure of efficiency.

Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator

2008-02-11, 3:25 am

On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 04:23:57 GMT, Malcolm Hoar wrote:

> The tank is "leaking" heat 24 hours per day, 7 days a week.
> A well insulated tank will store the energy you used and
> paid for. A poorly insulated tank will throw it away.

Another good point.

Does the Efficiency Factor take this heat leakage into account?
Or is the ONLY way to research the insulation thickness (which doesn't seem
to be on the energy star label).

What's the easiest way to compare heat leakage between two water heaters?

Donna

Rick Blaine

2008-02-11, 3:25 am

"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" <donna.ohl@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>Good point ... dead capacity vs active usage!
>
>Darn. I wish I understood this EF thing better, especially given two
>identical situations where the *only* difference is the CAPACITY.
>
>Based on what you implied, if I inferred correctly, if the USAGE was
>exactly the same for two water heaters with the same EF, then the costs to
>operate a 50-gallon water heater would be EXACTLY the same as the costs to
>operate a 100-gallon water heater (if the Efficiency Factor were the same
>for both).
>
>Did I understand the math (and your point) correctly?

Not exactly. There are two types of heat use/loss in a water heater: One is the
heat used to heat the water you are actively using. The other is to reheat the
water that's sitting in the tank all day when you aren't using it.

Both tanks will use the same amount of energy to heat the water you are using
directly. If both tanks have the same efficiency and the same insulation, the
smaller tank will lose less energy to the outside air and thus be slightly less
expensive to operate over the course of a year.

The actual difference in cost is probably not that much. Look at the estimated
annual cost of the two heaters on the yellow energy tag. They normalize for all
that. If one say $180 and the other says $200, that's a rough idea of the
difference in operating costs.

Rick Blaine

2008-02-11, 3:25 am

"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" <donna.ohl@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>What's the easiest way to compare heat leakage between two water heaters?

Look at the yellow energy label on the heaters. The annual cost to operate
printed there can be compared on different models.

hr(bob) hofmann@att.net

2008-02-11, 3:25 am

On Feb 10, 9:38=A0pm, "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator"
<donna....@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 21:20:35 -0700, Rick Blaine wrote:
_ and[color=darkred]
>
> Good point ... dead capacity vs active usage!
>
> Darn. I wish I understood this EF thing better, especially given two
> identical situations where the *only* difference is the CAPACITY.
>
> Based on what you implied, if I inferred correctly, if the USAGE was
> exactly the same for two water heaters with the same EF, then the costs to=

> operate a 50-gallon water heater would be EXACTLY the same as the costs to=

> operate a 100-gallon water heater (if the Efficiency Factor were the same
> for both).
>
> Did I understand the math (and your point) correctly?
>
> Donna

Donna:

Get a heater with the same gallons as you currently have, and as high
an efficiency rating as possible, go for at least a 5-year warranty.
Get a unit that is exactly the same outside dimensions so the piping
does not have to be changed and find a reasonably handy neighbor to
put the new tank in. It should take less than 30 minutes to do the
entire switch-out if the old and new tanks are the exact same size.
Compare prices on a cost per year of warranty coverage, I have seen a
lot of heaters that go bad within a year or so of the expiration of
the warranty, so cost per year of coverage is a good comparison
criteria. If you have the room, adding a fibre-glass water heater
cover over the new tank will improve the heat loss and thus raise the
efficiency. Don't obcess(SP?) about this, it isn't worth the time and
effort.

H. R.(Bob) Hofmann

Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator

2008-02-11, 3:25 am

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 23:42:31 -0500, mc wrote:

> "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" <donna.ohl@sbcglobal.net> wrote in
> message news:X5Qrj.11945$hI1.9847@nlpi061.nbdc.sbc.com...
>
> Strange. Then it isn't a measure of efficiency.

I think it was MY MISTAKE to call it an efficiency factor.
It's actually an ENERGY FACTOR.
And, it seems to be independent of the capacity of the tank.
It's dependent on the "cycles".

So, it seems if a 50-gallon water heater has an EF of 0.50, then it takes
two kilowatt hours of power to "cycle" that water heater. Likewise, if a
100-gallon water heater has the same EF, then it takes the same amount of
power to "cycle" that water heater.

Now we have to figure out what a "cycle" is.
I can presume it is to heat up a stated amount of hot water, presumably the
capacity but I don't know that for sure.

If a "cycle" is the capacity, then it would actually cost LESS per gallon
for a 100 gallon water heater than a 50 gallon water heater assuming the
same Energy Factor.

Realistically, all the Home Depot water heaters have a 0.58 or 0.59 EF so
that would indicate, if my assumptions are correct, they the larger ones
(e.g., 50 or 60 gallons capacity) actually costs LESS to operate than the
smaller ones (e.g., 40 gallons capacity) for any given number of gallons
USEAGE.

Can my math possibly hold water?

Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator

2008-02-11, 3:25 am

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 21:49:53 -0700, Rick Blaine wrote:

> Look at the yellow energy label on the heaters. The annual cost to operate
> printed there can be compared on different models.

Are you sure?

Isn't the Energy Factor a more pure number than the annual costs?
That is, the energy costs depend, of course, on the price of energy and
volume of water assumed while the Energy Factor should be independent of
those two numbers.

So, it seems to me the EF already takes into account the insulation (and
whatever other factors matter).

Doesn't it?

Donna

Rick Blaine

2008-02-11, 3:25 am

"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" <donna.ohl@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>What does the Efficiency Factor say about costs for two different sized
>tanks with the same efficiency factor?

EF allows you to compare different heaters. It takes into account insulation and
other factors. Details here:
http://www.eere.energy.gov/consumer...m/mytopic=13000

Rick Blaine

2008-02-11, 3:25 am

"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" <donna.ohl@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>
>Are you sure?
>

Yes

>Isn't the Energy Factor a more pure number than the annual costs?

Yes.

>That is, the energy costs depend, of course, on the price of energy and
>volume of water assumed while the Energy Factor should be independent of
>those two numbers.
>
>So, it seems to me the EF already takes into account the insulation (and
>whatever other factors matter).
>
>Doesn't it?

Do you care? Consider the case where one heater has poor insulation and a very
efficient burner, and the other has a poor burner and better insulation. Both
have the same EF, both cost the same to operate over a year. Which one do you
buy?

Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator

2008-02-11, 3:25 am

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 22:20:41 -0700, Rick Blaine wrote:
> Consider the case where one heater has poor insulation and a very
> efficient burner, and the other has a poor burner and better insulation. Both
> have the same EF, both cost the same to operate over a year. Which one do you
> buy?

Hi Rick,
I don't wish to argue ... just to understand ... so please bear with me.

I've said a lot that is wrong (e.g., I called the EF an "efficiency"
factor) and at first I was choosing by size and warranty (which is about as
opposite of the true selection process as is possible) ... so I'm learning
from all you guys and trying to truly understand how to properly select a
real water heater out of the real selections and choices truly available
today in my area.

It seems like I'm not the only one confused as some people said to buy a
water heater by CAPACITY (which seems nearly meaningless except for overall
mechanical size reasons) instead of by FHR, for example.

The web site you recommended was better for FHR than those I tried:
http://www.eere.energy.gov/consumer...m/mytopic=12990

As that web site CLEARLY said the FHR is the most important VOLUME number.
"To properly size a storage water heater ... use the water heater's first
hour rating (FHR). The first hour rating is the amount of hot water in
gallons the heater can supply per hour (starting with a tank full of hot
water). It depends on the tank capacity, source of heat (burner or
element), and the size of the burner or element."

So, I now know that the volume (e.g., 40 gallon or 50 gallon is a nearly
meaningless number when the actual FHR is known).

But, I'm still confused about the EF.

That same web site:
http://www.eere.energy.gov/consumer...m/mytopic=13000

Says "the energy factor (EF) indicates a water heater's overall energy
efficiency based on the amount of hot water produced per unit of fuel
consumed over a typical day. This includes ... how efficiently the heat
from the energy source is transferred to the water ... the percentage of
heat loss per hour from the stored water compared to the heat content of
the water ... [and] the loss of heat as the water circulates through a
water heater tank, and/or inlet and outlet pipes."

So, if I understand it correctly, all we need is the EF and the FHR and the
actual size (e.g., 40 gallons, 50 gallons, or 60 gallons) is meaningless
from the standpoint of how much hot water it delivers or how much it costs
to operate.

This seems so counterintuitive that no wonder a lot of people are confused,
even me. But then, like countersteering on a bicycle, sometimes you do turn
left to go right.

At the moment, it seems that the actual capacity of the tank is a nearly
meaningless number (except for dimensional reasons) - as is the warranty -
based on that web page (since both the FHR and ER alr