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Home > Archive > Alternative Power sources > October 2005 > Outdoor Wood Furnaces
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Outdoor Wood Furnaces
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| Furry 2005-10-05, 11:21 pm |
| Folks,
We're building a new house with the standard oil furnace and forced hot
water but I live in a relatively rural area with around 40 acres of
woods to use so I'm thinking of trying to reduce my oil bills by using
an outdoor wood furnace. From the research I've seen the biggest
consideration seems to be the amount of smoke generated and the next
biggest is corrosion problems in the fire box.
I recently came across a particular one, the Wood Doctor Converter
[http://www.wooddoctorfurnace.com/converter-back.pdf], which has a new
design which is supposed to cut down quite a bit on smoke. Questions:
1) Does anyone have actual experience with one of these, good or bad?
2) Are there other companies that have a similar design?
3) This type isn't a round boiler with a water jacket surrounding it,
is the problem of corrosion going to be more pronounced?
Thanks in advance, Bill
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| Arnold Walker 2005-10-06, 5:21 am |
|
"Furry" <furry@world.std.com> wrote in message
news:1128561496.863715.108730@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Folks,
>
> We're building a new house with the standard oil furnace and forced hot
> water but I live in a relatively rural area with around 40 acres of
> woods to use so I'm thinking of trying to reduce my oil bills by using
> an outdoor wood furnace. From the research I've seen the biggest
> consideration seems to be the amount of smoke generated and the next
> biggest is corrosion problems in the fire box.
>
> I recently came across a particular one, the Wood Doctor Converter
> [http://www.wooddoctorfurnace.com/converter-back.pdf], which has a new
> design which is supposed to cut down quite a bit on smoke. Questions:
>
> 1) Does anyone have actual experience with one of these, good or bad?
> 2) Are there other companies that have a similar design?
> 3) This type isn't a round boiler with a water jacket surrounding it,
> is the problem of corrosion going to be more pronounced?
>
> Thanks in advance, Bill
Haven't used them...just build boilers.
You have basic fluidized bed gasifier.....clean burn in other words.
Most commerical sawmill electric power boilers are patterned
after that firebox and blower design.Just watertube or monotube
instead ,need for higher pressure,etc.
And there are other companies....because it is that good.
Some of the other stuff on your question can't touch , without some hands
on.
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| |
| barry@sme-online.com 2005-10-06, 2:21 pm |
| All woodburners sold in the US must meet EPA limit for emissions. Many
use similar wood-gasification and afterburning. For combustion
efficiency, firebox must be kept hot. Ideally insulated. Not
conducive to corrosion, unless you're talking the months it's sitting
out there idle. One that has visible smoke for appreciable percentage
of time won't make the cut.
If you don't require an outdoors clone of existing system, you have
option of smaller stove(s) installed in room(s) of your choice.
Dunno what latitude you're at, but around here an outdoor boiler
wouldn't last the season.
HTH,
J
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| We're in Southern Maine, but I know that dealers sell them all over the
state and haven't heard of any freezing problems. The water lines are
usually buried underground and sometimes insulated so that's generally
not a problem either.
One source of data on the smoke problem is
http://www.woodheat.org/technology/outboiler.htm
barry@sme-online.com wrote:
> All woodburners sold in the US must meet EPA limit for emissions. Many
> use similar wood-gasification and afterburning. For combustion
> efficiency, firebox must be kept hot. Ideally insulated. Not
> conducive to corrosion, unless you're talking the months it's sitting
> out there idle. One that has visible smoke for appreciable percentage
> of time won't make the cut.
>
> If you don't require an outdoors clone of existing system, you have
> option of smaller stove(s) installed in room(s) of your choice.
>
> Dunno what latitude you're at, but around here an outdoor boiler
> wouldn't last the season.
>
> HTH,
> J
| |
| Steve Spence 2005-10-06, 2:21 pm |
| Furry wrote:
> We're in Southern Maine, but I know that dealers sell them all over the
> state and haven't heard of any freezing problems. The water lines are
> usually buried underground and sometimes insulated so that's generally
> not a problem either.
>
> One source of data on the smoke problem is
>
> http://www.woodheat.org/technology/outboiler.htm
>
That article lumps all outdoor boilers together and ignors gasification
units. Gasifiers do not smoke. One of our favorites is the hstarm unit
with heat storage tank in a concrete building.
--
Steve Spence
Dir., Green Trust, http://www.green-trust.org
Contributing Editor, http://www.off-grid.net
http://www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html
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| nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu 2005-10-06, 3:21 pm |
| <barry@sme-online.com> wrote:
>All woodburners sold in the US must meet EPA limit for emissions...
I've heard the outdoor versions are exempt.
Nick
| |
| Arnold Walker 2005-10-06, 4:21 pm |
|
<nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu> wrote in message
news:di3mh3$rg6@acadia.ece.villanova.edu...
> <barry@sme-online.com> wrote:
>
>
> I've heard the outdoor versions are exempt.
>
> Nick
Agreed ....tighter regulations on indoors units.
That 's not to say the manufacturer is any more lax on
the outdoor unit.
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| |
| nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu 2005-10-06, 4:21 pm |
| Arnold Walker <arnoldwalker@consolidated.net> wrote:
[color=darkred]
>Agreed ....tighter regulations on indoors units.
Maybe none on the outdoor units, altho the Wood Doctor folk say their
"converter" is the only outdoor unit legal in Vermont, by state law?
It heats 10K ft^2 and weighs almost 2 tons, $9K with shipping from
Nova Scotia to PA. They may have a smaller version in 2 years.
>That 's not to say the manufacturer is any more lax on the outdoor unit.
I'm sure they are in general, since most of these stoves have a water
jacket which lowers the combustion temp, compared to an indoor stove.
The Wood Doctors say their flame is 2000 F, but you can hold your hand
in the "300 F or less" flue all day, with no condensation?
Nick
| |
| Ecnerwal 2005-10-06, 4:21 pm |
| In article <di3rd9$sjg@acadia.ece.villanova.edu>,
nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu wrote:
> Maybe none on the outdoor units, altho the Wood Doctor folk say their
> "converter" is the only outdoor unit legal in Vermont, by state law?
Vermont (air pollution agency) regulated "waterstoves" due to massive
air quality problems from them. The affected stoves are the typical
waterstoves - massive pollution generation devices, which do not meet
EPA standards (evidently only applying to indoor furnaces - a loophole
which resulted in the things.) The Vermont law essentially excepts any
which care to meet the standards set for indoor furnaces, and applies
large setback requirements and chimney height limits to the remaining -
effectively allowing you to have one on a diary farm or large plot of
woods, and not even there if your location is such that inversions trap
smoke and cause air quality problems for neighbors. In the first few
years of the things, some valleys hearkened back to the very bad old
days - choked with smoke for much of the winter.
Without bothering to look at the wood doctor, I'd guess many
installations would be as well served and might cost less) by building
a small outbuilding (if the desire/point is to get the boiler and
chimney away from the house, for either wood-handling or fire-safety
reasons) and put any approved indoor wood furnace in the outbuilding.
--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by
| |
| Solar Flare 2005-10-06, 7:21 pm |
| LOL. You live over a hundred mile north of me and I live in Canada. Funny
fact most 'mericuns can't get over.
"Steve Spence" <sspence@green-trust.org> wrote in message
news:Qnc1f.7605$dl2.4201@fe08.lga...
barry@sme-online.com wrote:
> All woodburners sold in the US must meet EPA limit for emissions. Many
> use similar wood-gasification and afterburning. For combustion
> efficiency, firebox must be kept hot. Ideally insulated. Not
> conducive to corrosion, unless you're talking the months it's sitting
> out there idle. One that has visible smoke for appreciable percentage
> of time won't make the cut.
>
> If you don't require an outdoors clone of existing system, you have
> option of smaller stove(s) installed in room(s) of your choice.
>
> Dunno what latitude you're at, but around here an outdoor boiler
> wouldn't last the season.
>
> HTH,
> J
>
We are at latitude 44.713, outdoor boilers are common. What latitude is
it where they don't last?
--
Steve Spence
Dir., Green Trust, http://www.green-trust.org
Contributing Editor, http://www.off-grid.net
http://www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html
| |
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| someone@somewhere.org 2005-10-06, 8:21 pm |
| Furry <furry@world.std.com> wrote:
> Folks,
> We're building a new house with the standard oil furnace and forced hot
> water but I live in a relatively rural area with around 40 acres of
> woods to use so I'm thinking of trying to reduce my oil bills by using
> an outdoor wood furnace.
Why not a wood/oil combination boiler?
http://www.woodboilers.com/multi-fuel-furnace.asp
| |
| Solar Flare 2005-10-06, 8:21 pm |
| One I couldn't get through my head until actually seeing it on a map it that
Detroit is due north of Windsor in Canada and not just "more northerly"
You must get theose St Lawrence icy storm winds there then or are you south
of all that action?
"Steve Spence" <sspence@green-trust.org> wrote in message
news:jth1f.8534$Ge5.6300@fe10.lga...
: Solar Flare wrote:
: > LOL. You live over a hundred mile north of me and I live in Canada.
Funny
: > fact most 'mericuns can't get over.
: >
:
: yeh, we are 1 hour or so south east of Ottawa.
:
:
: --
: Steve Spence
: Dir., Green Trust, http://www.green-trust.org
: Contributing Editor, http://www.off-grid.net
: http://www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html
| |
|
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| Steve Spence 2005-10-06, 8:21 pm |
| Solar Flare wrote:
> One I couldn't get through my head until actually seeing it on a map it that
> Detroit is due north of Windsor in Canada and not just "more northerly"
>
> You must get theose St Lawrence icy storm winds there then or are you south
> of all that action?
>
We are in the ice and snow belt. lake effect. 700' above see level,
Adirondack foothills.
--
Steve Spence
Dir., Green Trust, http://www.green-trust.org
Contributing Editor, http://www.off-grid.net
http://www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html
| |
| Tony Wesley 2005-10-06, 9:21 pm |
|
Solar Flare wrote:
> One I couldn't get through my head until actually seeing it on a map it that
> Detroit is due north of Windsor in Canada and not just "more northerly"
It's true. I grew up north of Canada.
| |
| Solar Flare 2005-10-06, 9:21 pm |
| Sure Santa!
"Tony Wesley" <tonywesley@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1128641305.536926.147110@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
:
: Solar Flare wrote:
: > One I couldn't get through my head until actually seeing it on a map it
that
: > Detroit is due north of Windsor in Canada and not just "more northerly"
:
: It's true. I grew up north of Canada.
:
| |
| Harry Chickpea 2005-10-08, 1:21 pm |
| "Furry" <furry@world.std.com> wrote:
>Folks,
>
>We're building a new house with the standard oil furnace and forced hot
>water but I live in a relatively rural area with around 40 acres of
>woods to use so I'm thinking of trying to reduce my oil bills by using
>an outdoor wood furnace. From the research I've seen the biggest
>consideration seems to be the amount of smoke generated and the next
>biggest is corrosion problems in the fire box.
>
>I recently came across a particular one, the Wood Doctor Converter
>[http://www.wooddoctorfurnace.com/converter-back.pdf], which has a new
>design which is supposed to cut down quite a bit on smoke. Questions:
>
>1) Does anyone have actual experience with one of these, good or bad?
>2) Are there other companies that have a similar design?
>3) This type isn't a round boiler with a water jacket surrounding it,
>is the problem of corrosion going to be more pronounced?
>
>Thanks in advance, Bill
Be aware that outdoor wood furnaces will be increasingly regulated in
the future. Before you invest in one, demand to see one in operation
to check out how much it pollutes and verify that it meets any state
regulations or anticipated regulations. It wouldn't be cost effective
to spend a bundle on one and find out you weren't allowed to use it.
<http://www.timesargus.com/apps/pbcs...342/1003/NEWS02>
MONTPELIER The state Department of Environmental Conservation
announced Friday that it had scheduled another public hearing on a
proposed rule to regulate outdoor wood-fired boilers.
The announcement came 10 days after a previous hearing mainly featured
comments from the boiler industry and owners of the boilers asking the
state not to adopt the new rules.
The department said the next session was set for 7 p.m. Oct 17 at its
Waterbury headquarters and at Vermont Interactive Television studios
in Newport, Rutland, Brattleboro and Bennington. It said it was
holding the second hearing in response to requests from the public.
The new rules would establish a limit for emissions of particulate
matter like soot and fly ash from the boilers. The boilers typically
consist of a firebox that heats water in a steel sleeve around their
outer walls; the water is then piped into a nearby building to provide
heat, hot water or both.
Critics of the units say the water sleeve keeps them from getting hot
enough to burn off pollutants that end up being emitted as smoke.
"This rule will require the manufacturers to clean up the smoke from
these outdoor boilers and increase their efficiency so that the new
units they produce will operate on a par with new indoor wood stoves
or modern wood-fired furnaces," said DEC Commissioner Jeffrey
Wennberg.
The new rule would not apply to existing outdoor wood-fired boilers,
indoor wood-burning heaters or to maple sugaring operations, Wennberg
said.
At the hearing Sept. 27 in Montpelier, the department heard from
industry representatives who said they wanted more time to come up
with a testing method for the boilers. Some Vermonters who use the
units also testified in their defense, saying burning outdoors is
better for fire safety and leaves indoor air cleaner.
The DEC has collected dozens of complaints about the units in recent
years, mainly from neighbors of the people using them. Those
complaints have mainly to do with smoke laden with particulate matter
and toxic chemicals that often is released from stacks as low as 12
feet above the ground.
One Manchester Center woman wrote to the DEC, "Last night I took in
the laundry that I had hanging on the line and had to put it in the
washer as it all smelled of smoke." Her neighbor heated water with the
wood boiler, and ran it year-round, she wrote.
"Our smoke detectors in the living room and upstairs hallway have gone
off more than five times on days when I'm desperate enough to leave
the windows open," she wrote. "I have had days when a layer of soot
has covered my roof and my garden. I can't believe that this unit is
legal!"
| |
| HorneTD 2005-10-08, 2:21 pm |
| > "Furry" <furry@world.std.com> wrote:
>
>
> Harry Chickpea wrote:
>
> Be aware that outdoor wood furnaces will be increasingly regulated in
> the future. Before you invest in one, demand to see one in operation
> to check out how much it pollutes and verify that it meets any state
> regulations or anticipated regulations. It wouldn't be cost effective
> to spend a bundle on one and find out you weren't allowed to use it.
>
While it is true that more regulations are coming the constitutional
protection against ex post facto legislation protects the current
versions from being regulated out of existence. Under the US system of
law the legislature is forbidden to make something unlawful after the
fact.
--
Tom Horne
Well we aren't no thin blue heroes and yet we aren't no blackguards to.
We're just working men and woman most remarkable like you.
| |
| Harry Chickpea 2005-10-08, 3:21 pm |
| HorneTD <hornetd@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>While it is true that more regulations are coming the constitutional
>protection against ex post facto legislation protects the current
>versions from being regulated out of existence. Under the US system of
>law the legislature is forbidden to make something unlawful after the
>fact.
Owning and use are two entirely different concepts. There are
hundreds of old steam locomotives around the country, all perfectly
legal to own, with some built prior to regulation, but none of them
can be legally used without being subject to the current regulations
of steam boilers.
The outdoor boilers that pollute heavily are already undoubtedly
subject to civil lawsuits for interfering with the "quiet right of
enjoyment" of surrounding homeowners. An outdoor boiler might be
legal, but still be subject to legal challenge and nuisance
complaints. The fact that neighbors might be too poor to mount a
lawsuit is bound to change as the areas become more developed.
What I find amazing is that the boiler manufacturers want to prevent
the regulations from being adopted. To me, this smacks of 19th
century stupidity. Setting minimum standards will prevent towns from
passing zoning laws that create blanket outlawing of the units, will
effectively limit competition to established manufacturers, will
upgrade the image of the industry, will make the units more efficient,
and increase the potential profit margin. With the price of fossil
fuel increasing, any reduction in sales because of increased prices
will be more than offset by new customers.
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