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Home > Archive > Alternative Power sources > October 2005 > My solar/fire drum collectors
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My solar/fire drum collectors
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| The plan is to pull air thru my little wood stove closet in the middle
of my walk out basement (my main living area), which contains my wood
stove, six 55 gal steel drums, my water heater, and some other yet to
be determined water containers.
From that closet I'll have a vent to the laundry room. One wall of
that room has an 11' work bench, which I will close off underneath.
There is a shelf under it for a bunch of gallon jugs stacked 2 high
maybe, and more will go on the floor under that. I'll have a fan at
the far end of the bench furthest from the woodstove. The other end
of the bottom of the bench will vent out into the main room. So air
will be pulled through the storage closet with the woodstove, through
the laundry room, then pushed under the work bench which holds maybe
200 one gallon jugs.
The idea of course is to have a hot fire (or hot solar heat) without
having a hot house.
My upstairs solar collectors will be blown thru the same way as heat
from the woodstove. When I need heat from the storage, I can turn on
the fan and it will pull air over the storage the same as when it is
pulling it thru for collecting.
Does this seem logical?
My other question is how to make the drums more conductive. Any ideas
on soldering little fins on or something? Maybe some salvage fin
tubing wrapped tightly around? I figured just sitting 2 liter bottles
high around them and maybe tying them tight to the drum would help.
Last winter I had the drums and the woodstove and solar, but hard to
say how effective it was. It's a work in progress  I've improved
insulation for this year, but still working on that. The plan is to
be 100% solar before I die
Oh, I also have a 4 gallon covered pot of water on my woodstove with a
copper coil in it that thermosyphons to my water heater, which sits up
on one of the barrels ... that worked pretty well last year. I took
the plate off the stove so the fire hits the pot directly.
My next trick is to get the heat into my slab which has PEX in it.
I'm thinking fin tubing that will thermosyphon to another tank (old
water heater probably) upstairs. As it gets warm enough it will pump
thru my slab. This would have some sort of fluid that won't wear out
my PEX I guess. Maybe a smaller tank would be in order for that job.
Any helpful hints?
Any pearls of wisdom would be appreciated.
Bill
west central Illinois
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| Martin Riddle 2005-10-20, 8:21 pm |
| It depends on your local. Over in the next county here you need to be a master electrician.
Cheers
<Bill> wrote in message news:2uufl1h5bftknk48q0ptrs46hr3r8lsv7h@4ax.com...
> The plan is to pull air thru my little wood stove closet in the middle
> of my walk out basement (my main living area), which contains my wood
> stove, six 55 gal steel drums, my water heater, and some other yet to
> be determined water containers.
>
> From that closet I'll have a vent to the laundry room. One wall of
> that room has an 11' work bench, which I will close off underneath.
> There is a shelf under it for a bunch of gallon jugs stacked 2 high
> maybe, and more will go on the floor under that. I'll have a fan at
> the far end of the bench furthest from the woodstove. The other end
> of the bottom of the bench will vent out into the main room. So air
> will be pulled through the storage closet with the woodstove, through
> the laundry room, then pushed under the work bench which holds maybe
> 200 one gallon jugs.
>
> The idea of course is to have a hot fire (or hot solar heat) without
> having a hot house.
>
> My upstairs solar collectors will be blown thru the same way as heat
> from the woodstove. When I need heat from the storage, I can turn on
> the fan and it will pull air over the storage the same as when it is
> pulling it thru for collecting.
>
> Does this seem logical?
>
> My other question is how to make the drums more conductive. Any ideas
> on soldering little fins on or something? Maybe some salvage fin
> tubing wrapped tightly around? I figured just sitting 2 liter bottles
> high around them and maybe tying them tight to the drum would help.
>
> Last winter I had the drums and the woodstove and solar, but hard to
> say how effective it was. It's a work in progress I've improved
> insulation for this year, but still working on that. The plan is to
> be 100% solar before I die
>
> Oh, I also have a 4 gallon covered pot of water on my woodstove with a
> copper coil in it that thermosyphons to my water heater, which sits up
> on one of the barrels ... that worked pretty well last year. I took
> the plate off the stove so the fire hits the pot directly.
>
> My next trick is to get the heat into my slab which has PEX in it.
> I'm thinking fin tubing that will thermosyphon to another tank (old
> water heater probably) upstairs. As it gets warm enough it will pump
> thru my slab. This would have some sort of fluid that won't wear out
> my PEX I guess. Maybe a smaller tank would be in order for that job.
> Any helpful hints?
>
> Any pearls of wisdom would be appreciated.
>
> Bill
> west central Illinois
>
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| nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu 2005-10-21, 4:21 am |
| <Bill> wrote:
>The plan is to pull air thru my little wood stove closet in the middle
>of my walk out basement (my main living area), which contains my wood
>stove, six 55 gal steel drums, my water heater, and some other yet to
>be determined water containers.
Warm air rises. What's the ceiling like? I tucked 60 4"x10' thinwall
PVC pipes between 2x6 joists on 16" centers in my neighbor's basement
ceiling, replacing the diagonal bracing with 1x3s on 3' centers screwed
perpendicular under the joists. Each pipe has endcaps and a 3/4" hole
with a #3 rubber stopper on top.
That's about 3000 pounds of water, ie C = 3000 Btu/F of thermal mass.
The amount of heat stored is CdT, ie 3000 times the difference between
max and min temps. If you want to store lots of heat without overheating
the basement by downwards radiation, you might wrap the pipes and joists
with foil or put some foil or thin foil-faced foamboard under the floor
and 90% of the joists, with slots to allow hot air to rise up inside
the joist spaces and warm the pipes and a fan to bring down heat from
the joist spaces as needed to control the basement room temp, with
a basement air temp thermostat and an occupancy sensor, eg a $15 outdoor
motion detector light fixture with a 15 minute on-time. Thick rugs or
foamboard on the floor above might be useful.
>From that closet I'll have a vent to the laundry room. One wall of
>that room has an 11' work bench, which I will close off underneath.
>There is a shelf under it for a bunch of gallon jugs stacked 2 high
>maybe, and more will go on the floor under that. I'll have a fan at
>the far end of the bench furthest from the woodstove. The other end
>of the bottom of the bench will vent out into the main room. So air
>will be pulled through the storage closet with the woodstove, through
>the laundry room, then pushed under the work bench which holds maybe
>200 one gallon jugs.
I did that, with lots of cubical 4 gallon plastic Ropak tubs under
a 4'x8' bench. I'm about to take it apart. Warm air rises, and mass
near the floor only swings with the room temp. Ceiling mass can have
a larger swing, with better room air temp control, and the heat can
be turned off at night. And it frees up floorspace, compared to all
those jugs and drums.
>The idea of course is to have a hot fire (or hot solar heat) without
>having a hot house.
You can also save wood by letting the house be cooler at night.
An 8' 50 cube with R20 insulation and 30 F air outside only needs
(50F-30F)5x8'x8'/R20 = 320 Btu/h at night, excluding the ceiling.
Excluding the occupant, a T (F) ceiling can provide this heat if
0.1714x10^-8e((T+460)^4-(50+460)^4)64ft^2 = 320, where the ceiling
emissivity e can vary from 0 (a perfect IR mirror) to 1 (drywall,
plain paint, and so on.) This makes T = (510^4+2.92x10^9/e)^0.25-460
(push the square root button twice), so e = 1 makes T = 55.4 F, and
we can't store much heat up there... e = 0.1 makes 97.9. Much better.
>My upstairs solar collectors will be blown thru the same way as heat
>from the woodstove. When I need heat from the storage, I can turn on
>the fan and it will pull air over the storage the same as when it is
>pulling it thru for collecting.
>
>Does this seem logical?
Again, it seems more logical to put the heat store above the heat source
(and put the cool store below, eg a night-air-flushed or evaporatively
cooled floorslab in a Southwest house, bringing up cool air into the room
as needed with a slow ceiling fan and a room temp thermostat and
an occupancy sensor.)
>My other question is how to make the drums more conductive. Any ideas
>on soldering little fins on or something? Maybe some salvage fin
>tubing wrapped tightly around? I figured just sitting 2 liter bottles
>high around them and maybe tying them tight to the drum would help.
Sounds good. You might encase the drums in cylindrical stone gabions.
>Last winter I had the drums and the woodstove and solar, but hard to
>say how effective it was. It's a work in progress I've improved
>insulation for this year, but still working on that. The plan is to
>be 100% solar before I die
Good plan. Where do you live?
>My next trick is to get the heat into my slab which has PEX in it.
Yuck. Good luck.
Nick
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| On 21 Oct 2005 02:54:35 -0400, nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu wrote:
>Warm air rises. What's the ceiling like? I tucked 60 4"x10' thinwall
>PVC pipes between 2x6 joists on 16" centers in my neighbor's basement
>ceiling...
I could maybe do that in just the laundry room and heat storage closet
.... I could get maybe 21 in that way. My basement ceiling is
insulated with fiber glass now, but I want to use the next floor up
for a work area, so won't mind losing some heat to it. (It's getting
insulated as well). I could put a layer of 3/4" foil faced poly iso'
above the tubes, and could better support the weight in the laundry
room with and extra little beam in the middle.
>I did that, with lots of cubical 4 gallon plastic Ropak tubs under
>a 4'x8' bench. I'm about to take it apart. Warm air rises, and mass
>near the floor only swings with the room temp. Ceiling mass can have
>a larger swing, with better room air temp control, and the heat can
>be turned off at night. And it frees up floorspace, compared to all
>those jugs and drums.
I'd think if the space under the work bench is enclosed, you would
lose much heat from it except when the fan blows air through it. I
guess I'll lose some to the slab, but that will be OK I'm guessing
since I'll need to have some heat anytime the sun is down and the fire
is out. But it would be better to have the extra space.
>You can also save wood by letting the house be cooler at night.
Brrrrr I'm good down to about 64, and don't mind wearing a
stocking cap and a sweater.
>An 8' 50 cube with R20 insulation and 30 F air outside only needs
>(50F-30F)5x8'x8'/R20 = 320 Btu/h at night, excluding the ceiling.
>Excluding the occupant, a T (F) ceiling can provide this heat if
>0.1714x10^-8e((T+460)^4-(50+460)^4)64ft^2 = 320, where the ceiling
>emissivity e can vary from 0 (a perfect IR mirror) to 1 (drywall,
>plain paint, and so on.) This makes T = (510^4+2.92x10^9/e)^0.25-460
>(push the square root button twice), so e = 1 makes T = 55.4 F, and
>we can't store much heat up there... e = 0.1 makes 97.9. Much better.
i don't follow all that.. you mean emissivity above the ceiling heat
storage, if I had it? Anyway, I squeezed R30 fiber glass batts
between my 2x8 joists. They billow out a little. I ran 2x4's under
perpendicular to the joists and attached gold faced mylar (54" wide)
under that as a vapor barrier and reflector for light and heat. That
gives me an air gap between the batts and the mylar, which seemed like
a good idea at the time. I like it but it has some wrinkles in it.
I just did that on one side of the basement. The billowing batts are
still exposed on the other side.
[color=darkred]
>Again, it seems more logical to put the heat store above the heat source
True, but eventually it needs to get to the basement, (which is mostly
above ground, but built like a basement, with windows The walls
are insulated on the outside. I found some 55 gallon plastic drums
for $5 locally, so may try to put those upstairs as heat storage one
day.
>
>Good plan. Where do you live?
I'm in west central Illinois
[color=darkred]
>Yuck. Good luck.
lol, I was thinking that would be a good storage place. I have a 250'
run of 1/2 in the middle of the basement, with R10 pink foam under
a4.5" slab. It seems that would be the ideal place to circulate some
hot water, maybe vrom the stove top pot after the water heater storage
is hot.
Thanks for the tips Nick. Did you get all your tomatoes harvested by
now I guess?
Bill
west central Illinois
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| nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu 2005-10-21, 3:21 pm |
| <Bill> wrote:
....3 per joist cavity.
[color=darkred]
>I could maybe do that in just the laundry room and heat storage closet
>... I could get maybe 21 in that way.
That's all?
>I'd think if the space under the work bench is enclosed, you would
>[not?] lose much heat from it except when the fan blows air through it.
>I guess I'll lose some to the slab, but that will be OK I'm guessing
>since I'll need to have some heat anytime the sun is down and the fire
>is out. But it would be better to have the extra space.
Sure. And that mass would only swing with the room temp, unless you had
a fan with a duct to and from an enclosure around the stove.
>
>Brrrrr I'm good down to about 64, and don't mind wearing a
>stocking cap and a sweater.
The room might not reach 64 with high-e ceiling mass warmer than 70.
>
>...you mean emissivity above the ceiling heat storage...?
No. Below it, to reduce radiation that heats the lower part of the room.
>Anyway, I squeezed R30 fiber glass batts between my 2x8 joists. They
>billow out a little. I ran 2x4's under perpendicular to the joists
>and attached gold faced mylar (54" wide) under that as a vapor barrier
>and reflector for light and heat. That gives me an air gap between
>the batts and the mylar, which seemed like a good idea at the time.
Sounds like a good idea, if you mostly live in the basement.
>Thanks for the tips Nick. Did you get all your tomatoes harvested by
>now I guess?
Mostly. We are starting to clean out the greenhouses now.
Nick
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