Alternative Power sources - Economical setup was: Why go solar?

Author

Economical setup was: Why go solar?

Dave Nay

2005-10-28, 2:21 pm

wmbjk wrote:
> Nice job. Your type of setup is what I ask people to consider as an
> alternative to a 10kW generator for backup. But they often have a hard
> time understanding how a say, 2Kw generator combined with storage and
> an inverter can be better. Thanks for posting your example.
>
> Wayne

Wayne,

Can you expound on your thoughts for this type of system for a beginner?
Although I am not in a hurricane area, I am out in the middle of a
corn field, and winter storms can cause the power lines to fail....and I
am not on a hig priority repair list.

My vitals:

Oil fired forced hot air furnace
Electric hot water
120VAC (240VAC?) water well pump

I currently own two gas powered generators, a 1.5kW and a 5kW, with no
PV yet. I would like to expand so that I have the capability to run for
up to 7 days keeping the heat & water going, plus a minimal AC load for
the laptop, wireless router and the wireless internet connection. Since
the stove is also electric, I would skip that, but also add an 800W
microwave to the need to use list.

I am planning to hook up the 1.5kW generator to a transfer switch for
the furnace and possibly the well pump. That leaves the question of the
most straight forward method to hook up the other generator and the as
yet to be determined PV or RE equipment. I see the hot water heater as
being the biggest problem. I would like to not have to run the
generators constantly for all the reasons Harry Chickpea mentioned, so I
definitely would like a battery bank and charge controller.

Winter winds here in northern Illinois are pretty consistent, so perhaps
a small wind turbine instead of PV? When gris power is present, I would
assume the charge controller can use that to maintain the batteries.

Thanks for letting me ramble, I am jsut getting started with the
planning of my winter backup system, and you left me an opportunity to
present these questions to you and everyone else.

Thanks,
Dave

Bill Ward

2005-10-28, 3:21 pm

wmbjk

2005-10-28, 3:21 pm

On Fri, 28 Oct 2005 11:41:58 -0500, Dave Nay <dave.nay@vidanay.com>
wrote:

>wmbjk wrote:
>
>Wayne,
>
>Can you expound on your thoughts for this type of system for a beginner?
> Although I am not in a hurricane area, I am out in the middle of a
>corn field, and winter storms can cause the power lines to fail....and I
>am not on a hig priority repair list.
>
>My vitals:
>
>Oil fired forced hot air furnace
>Electric hot water
>120VAC (240VAC?) water well pump
>
>I currently own two gas powered generators, a 1.5kW and a 5kW, with no
>PV yet. I would like to expand so that I have the capability to run for
>up to 7 days keeping the heat & water going, plus a minimal AC load for
>the laptop, wireless router and the wireless internet connection. Since
>the stove is also electric, I would skip that, but also add an 800W
>microwave to the need to use list.
>
>I am planning to hook up the 1.5kW generator to a transfer switch for
>the furnace and possibly the well pump. That leaves the question of the
>most straight forward method to hook up the other generator and the as
>yet to be determined PV or RE equipment. I see the hot water heater as
>being the biggest problem. I would like to not have to run the
>generators constantly for all the reasons Harry Chickpea mentioned, so I
>definitely would like a battery bank and charge controller.
>
>Winter winds here in northern Illinois are pretty consistent, so perhaps
>a small wind turbine instead of PV? When gris power is present, I would
>assume the charge controller can use that to maintain the batteries.
>
>Thanks for letting me ramble, I am jsut getting started with the
>planning of my winter backup system, and you left me an opportunity to
>present these questions to you and everyone else.
>
>Thanks,
>Dave

You'll need to estimate your consumption accurately before you can
size batteries. This free online magazine has done several good
articles you might find useful http://www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html Some
others

http://www.homepower.com/files/loadcalc.pdf

http://www.homepower.com/education/components.cfm

Get the KillaWatt meter mentioned, here's a cheap price
http://tinyurl.com/aqsc5

An inverter with a built-in charger is nicest. Loads run from the
inverter until it sees an AC input, the loads are then switched to the
generator and the inverter applies whatever power is left over to
controlled charging of the batteries. I'm not up on current models,
but the Xantrex DR series might fit the bill
http://www.xantrex.com/web/id/57/p/1/pt/18/product.asp
http://www.sunelec.com/Distributors...back1trace.html

Many would consider that a fancy solution just for emergency use
though. Hopefully they'll make specific recommendations for cheaper
inverters and chargers.

On even the smallest system, a battery monitor will take a lot of the
guesswork out of running a system, review of two examples here
http://www.homepower.com/education/comp_meter.cfm

Add PV, and a charge controller for that if desired.

About the only (relatively) simple solution I can think of offhand for
the water would be to add one of those electric inline demand heaters
and power it with the larger generator. Sort of an automated kettle.
;-) Perhaps put it on the line feeding one bathroom so you could take
a light shower.

Well pumps tend to be hard to start for their hp. Unless you have a
shallow well pump, it may not be happy on 1.5kW.

Take care relying on the output claims of the most popular small wind
turbine http://www.wind-works.org/articles/sm_AirXtest.html Larger
models work well, but are probably too expensive for a backup system.
Figure perhaps $1500 for a turbine with a 10' rotor diameter, and as
much again for a tower. Much less if you want to roll your own of
course http://otherpower.com/otherpower_experiments.html.

Wayne

hal@nospam.com

2005-10-28, 6:21 pm

On Fri, 28 Oct 2005 11:41:58 -0500, Dave Nay <dave.nay@vidanay.com>
wrote:

>wmbjk wrote:
>
>Wayne,
>
>Can you expound on your thoughts for this type of system for a beginner?
> Although I am not in a hurricane area, I am out in the middle of a
>corn field, and winter storms can cause the power lines to fail....and I
>am not on a hig priority repair list.
>
>My vitals:
>
>Oil fired forced hot air furnace
>Electric hot water
>120VAC (240VAC?) water well pump
>
>I currently own two gas powered generators, a 1.5kW and a 5kW, with no
>PV yet. I would like to expand so that I have the capability to run for
>up to 7 days keeping the heat & water going, plus a minimal AC load for
>the laptop, wireless router and the wireless internet connection. Since
>the stove is also electric, I would skip that, but also add an 800W
>microwave to the need to use list.
>
>I am planning to hook up the 1.5kW generator to a transfer switch for
>the furnace and possibly the well pump. That leaves the question of the
>most straight forward method to hook up the other generator and the as
>yet to be determined PV or RE equipment. I see the hot water heater as
>being the biggest problem. I would like to not have to run the
>generators constantly for all the reasons Harry Chickpea mentioned, so I
>definitely would like a battery bank and charge controller.
>
>Winter winds here in northern Illinois are pretty consistent, so perhaps
>a small wind turbine instead of PV? When gris power is present, I would
>assume the charge controller can use that to maintain the batteries.
>
>Thanks for letting me ramble, I am jsut getting started with the
>planning of my winter backup system, and you left me an opportunity to
>present these questions to you and everyone else.

Have you considered finding alternatives to everything except what you
absolutely need electricity for? As I see it, the only thing you
really must power is your refrigerator and freezers so you don't lose
your perishable foods. Everything else can be substituted. Get an
airtight wood stove for heating and cooking. Get a couple of
multifuel stoves for backups and when you don't want to cook indoors
on a woodstove (don't forget proper venting). If you don't want to
mess with wood get a propane or diesel stove (they look just like
woodstoves) installed and get a big enough fuel bottle to last you for
months if need be. Store adequate water to get you through most
emergencies. An underground plastic septic tank and a hand pump if
you want more. A few nice glass oil lamps are both attractive
"antiques" to keep around the house and will provide all the light you
need for getting around the house at night. I have a 3k generator and
that runs my fridge and two large freezers without putting any
noticable load on the gen, as well as any electronics I may want and
battery chargers in case I need to charge up anything. Everything
else is covered with alternatives.

Just a thought

Hal

>
>Thanks,
>Dave

dances_with_barkadas@yahoo.com

2005-10-29, 10:21 pm

> As I see it, the only thing you really must power is your refrigerator

refrigeration is a flavor of mechanical energy. The use of electricity
to provide it is a simple convenience. Windmills and water turbines can
turn vapor compressors just as easily as electric motors do.

in addition to that, refrigeration by storage of seasonal coolth
existed thousands of years ago.

in addition to that, since the last 70 or so years, we've had
well-developed mechanisms for providing coolth by spending heat.
Absorption-cycle cooling.

Steve Spence

2005-10-29, 11:21 pm

dances_with_barkadas@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>
>
> refrigeration is a flavor of mechanical energy. The use of electricity
> to provide it is a simple convenience. Windmills and water turbines can
> turn vapor compressors just as easily as electric motors do.
>
> in addition to that, refrigeration by storage of seasonal coolth
> existed thousands of years ago.
>
> in addition to that, since the last 70 or so years, we've had
> well-developed mechanisms for providing coolth by spending heat.
> Absorption-cycle cooling.
>

One of my fridges is propane. It's a bit of a bother compared to the
electric. battery powered light, small capacity, and not frost free.

--
Steve Spence
Dir., Green Trust, http://www.green-trust.org
Contributing Editor, http://www.off-grid.net
http://www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html

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