|
Home > Archive > Alternative Power sources > November 2005 > ground source heat pumps
You are viewing an archived Text-only version of the thread.
To view this thread in it's original format and/or if you want to reply to
this thread please [click here]
| Author |
ground source heat pumps
|
|
| Steve Spence 2005-10-27, 10:21 pm |
| Solar Flare wrote:
> 50 deg F only if you don't inject frost into the ground by removing all the
> heat.
>
> They are not cheaper than NG here at 3:1 COP and the mechanics always sseem to
> have too high maintenance costs and a bad MTBF.
>
> Now get one that runs on diesel or NG and we may be getting somewhere.
>
not possible to remove the heat faster than the earth regens, unless
your coils are too small. Maintenance costs are no higher than a air
conditioner.
--
Steve Spence
Dir., Green Trust, http://www.green-trust.org
Contributing Editor, http://www.off-grid.net
http://www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html
| |
| Solar Flare 2005-10-27, 11:21 pm |
| The earth does not regen the heat in an insulated earth pocket anymore than the
cold puts frost into the ground at that depth. Some means of supplying more
heat, like water flow, needs to be tapped into otherwise the ground become
frozen and the heat source is ended.
At 8' down, unless you have water flow you rely on your A/C in the summer to
warm the ground back up. If you didn't you would eventually have a block of ice
for a source. The earths core is 1000s of mile away. You are not getting heat
from it. Does your basement overheat from this?...LOL
"Steve Spence" <sspence@green-trust.org> wrote in message
news:Ome8f.19494$ol.15604@fe08.lga...
> Solar Flare wrote:
to[color=darkred]
>
>
> not possible to remove the heat faster than the earth regens, unless
> your coils are too small. Maintenance costs are no higher than a air
> conditioner.
>
>
> --
> Steve Spence
> Dir., Green Trust, http://www.green-trust.org
> Contributing Editor, http://www.off-grid.net
> http://www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html
| |
| Steve Spence 2005-10-27, 11:21 pm |
| Solar Flare wrote:
> The earth does not regen the heat in an insulated earth pocket anymore than the
> cold puts frost into the ground at that depth. Some means of supplying more
> heat, like water flow, needs to be tapped into otherwise the ground become
> frozen and the heat source is ended.
>
> At 8' down, unless you have water flow you rely on your A/C in the summer to
> warm the ground back up. If you didn't you would eventually have a block of ice
> for a source. The earths core is 1000s of mile away. You are not getting heat
> from it. Does your basement overheat from this?...LOL
>
>
GSHP does not operate the the way you think it does.
--
Steve Spence
Dir., Green Trust, http://www.green-trust.org
Contributing Editor, http://www.off-grid.net
http://www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html
| |
| Strider 2005-10-28, 12:21 am |
| On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 21:57:03 -0400, Steve Spence
<sspence@green-trust.org> wrote:
>Solar Flare wrote:
>
>GSHP does not operate the the way you think it does.
I've met a few people with these systems and they consider them good,
trouble free systems.
It may be that the coil is huge and buried some 20 feet deep at it's
lowest point. I don't know. i do know that it was expensive to
install.
Strider
| |
| Solar Flare 2005-10-28, 12:21 am |
| How would you know that?
Explain how you think it does work please.
"Steve Spence" <sspence@green-trust.org> wrote in message
news:Ozf8f.19518$ol.12233@fe08.lga...
> Solar Flare wrote:
the[color=darkred]
ice[color=darkred]
heat[color=darkred]
>
> GSHP does not operate the the way you think it does.
>
>
>
> --
> Steve Spence
> Dir., Green Trust, http://www.green-trust.org
> Contributing Editor, http://www.off-grid.net
> http://www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html
| |
| Dan Bloomquist 2005-10-28, 12:21 am |
|
Strider wrote:
> On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 21:57:03 -0400, Steve Spence
>
> I've met a few people with these systems and they consider them good,
> trouble free systems.
>
> It may be that the coil is huge and buried some 20 feet deep at it's
> lowest point. I don't know. i do know that it was expensive to
> install.
Yea. Without ground water you may be looking at up to 600 feet of heat
exchanger per ton. It is very dependent on the thermal conductivity of
the ground you are working with.
>
> Strider
Best, Dan.
| |
| Steve Spence 2005-10-28, 8:21 pm |
| Solar Flare wrote:
> How would you know that?
>
> Explain how you think it does work please.
>
By your statement indicating the heat from the surrounding soil would
not move into the soil made a bit cooler by operation of the heat pump.
The ground is not turned into frozen tundra, unless the contractor has
done a horrible job of installation. The earth has a lot more heat than
I can remove with a GSHP, and years of operation hasn't produced ice in
any installation I'm aware of. The "trick" is to not concentrate your
load in too small of an area.
--
Steve Spence
Dir., Green Trust, http://www.green-trust.org
Contributing Editor, http://www.off-grid.net
http://www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html
| |
|
| On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 22:32:39 -0400, Strider <strider@usit.net> wrote:
>On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 21:57:03 -0400, Steve Spence
><sspence@green-trust.org> wrote:
>
>
>I've met a few people with these systems and they consider them good,
>trouble free systems.
>
>It may be that the coil is huge and buried some 20 feet deep at it's
>lowest point. I don't know. i do know that it was expensive to
>install.
If the ground loop springs a leak, the repair is very expensive.
Guess how I know.
RJ
| |
| Solar Flare 2005-10-29, 12:21 am |
| Agreed but then your statement was for what purpose?
"Here in NY, we can find 50F about 8' down year round. That's what makes
ground source heat pumps so effective."
If you remove too much heat from the grouns at any level and there is not an
infinite heat sink, the ground will freeeze up eventually, given too long of a
season and not enough cold dispersion.
The point I take offence to is that people think because their is no frost below
x feet that the ground always is warm at that level, no matter how much heat you
remove from it. Some will tell you the earth's core heats it.
"Steve Spence" <sspence@green-trust.org> wrote in message
news:aDx8f.16921$rE2.3147@fe10.lga...
> Solar Flare wrote:
>
> By your statement indicating the heat from the surrounding soil would
> not move into the soil made a bit cooler by operation of the heat pump.
> The ground is not turned into frozen tundra, unless the contractor has
> done a horrible job of installation. The earth has a lot more heat than
> I can remove with a GSHP, and years of operation hasn't produced ice in
> any installation I'm aware of. The "trick" is to not concentrate your
> load in too small of an area.
>
>
> --
> Steve Spence
> Dir., Green Trust, http://www.green-trust.org
> Contributing Editor, http://www.off-grid.net
> http://www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html
| |
| Steve Spence 2005-10-29, 10:21 am |
| Solar Flare wrote:
> Agreed but then your statement was for what purpose?
>
> "Here in NY, we can find 50F about 8' down year round. That's what makes
> ground source heat pumps so effective."
>
> If you remove too much heat from the grouns at any level and there is not an
> infinite heat sink, the ground will freeeze up eventually, given too long of a
> season and not enough cold dispersion.
>
> The point I take offence to is that people think because their is no frost below
> x feet that the ground always is warm at that level, no matter how much heat you
> remove from it. Some will tell you the earth's core heats it.
>
It's effective because it's 50F down there all year round, so when you
need heat you have it, and when you need cold, you have it, unlike air
source heat pumps. The ground stays warm, because I don't remove more
heat than it can absorb from surrounding earth. This is called engineering.
--
Steve Spence
Dir., Green Trust, http://www.green-trust.org
Contributing Editor, http://www.off-grid.net
http://www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html
| |
| Solar Flare 2005-10-29, 1:21 pm |
| That is called, uneducated guessing.
As I stated, you need an infinite heat sink to make it work. 8' down with no
water flow is not that medium.
"Steve Spence" <sspence@green-trust.org> wrote in message
news:CLJ8f.21199$ol.20238@fe08.lga...
> Solar Flare wrote:
a[color=darkred]
below[color=darkred]
you[color=darkred]
>
> It's effective because it's 50F down there all year round, so when you
> need heat you have it, and when you need cold, you have it, unlike air
> source heat pumps. The ground stays warm, because I don't remove more
> heat than it can absorb from surrounding earth. This is called engineering.
>
> --
> Steve Spence
> Dir., Green Trust, http://www.green-trust.org
> Contributing Editor, http://www.off-grid.net
> http://www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html
| |
| nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu 2005-10-29, 3:21 pm |
| Solar Flare <sflare@hotmail.com> wrote:
>... you need an infinite heat sink to make it work.
Soil conducts heat.
Nick
| |
| Solar Flare 2005-10-29, 7:21 pm |
| What heat?
Where does it come from? The frozen ground above it?
<nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu> wrote in message
news:dk0cko$6f3@acadia.ece.villanova.edu...
> Solar Flare <sflare@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Soil conducts heat.
>
> Nick
>
| |
| John W. Hall 2005-10-29, 7:21 pm |
| X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 15
Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 22:08:21 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.53.253.223
X-Trace: edtnps89 1130623701 198.53.253.223 (Sat, 29 Oct 2005 16:08:21 MDT)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 16:08:21 MDT
Xref: number1.nntp.dca.giganews.com alt.energy.homepower:119298 alt.energy.renewable:89363 sci.energy:145721 misc.survivalism:893825
On Sat, 29 Oct 2005 17:18:27 -0400, "Solar Flare" <sflare@hotmail.com>
wrote:
>What heat?
>
>Where does it come from? The frozen ground above it?
Perhaps from the same source as volcanos etc - molten iron and
assorted components (some of which are still undergoing radioactive
decay) of the Earth's core.
--
John W Hall <wweexxsseessssaa@telus.net>
Cochrane, Alberta, Canada.
"Helping People Prosper in the Information Age"
| |
| Solar Flare 2005-10-29, 9:21 pm |
| Yup. The frozen ground doesn't penetrate more than 4 feet deep in a 5 month
winter but the heat from the earth can travel 4000 miles....LOL
"John W. Hall" <wweexxsseessssaa@telus.net> wrote in message
news:6js7m1dohlo1o2tbskv44f2hrp53e7sott@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 29 Oct 2005 17:18:27 -0400, "Solar Flare" <sflare@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
> Perhaps from the same source as volcanos etc - molten iron and
> assorted components (some of which are still undergoing radioactive
> decay) of the Earth's core.
>
> --
> John W Hall <wweexxsseessssaa@telus.net>
> Cochrane, Alberta, Canada.
> "Helping People Prosper in the Information Age"
| |
| nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu 2005-10-29, 10:21 pm |
| John W. Hall <wweexxsseessssaa@telus.net> wrote:
>"Solar Flare" <sflare@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>Perhaps from the same source as volcanos etc - molten iron and
>assorted components (some of which are still undergoing radioactive
>decay) of the Earth's core.
And sun and warm air on the ground.
Nick
| |
| Solar Flare 2005-10-30, 1:21 am |
| Try reading the conversation
<nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu> wrote in message
news:dk0vhk$6n8@acadia.ece.villanova.edu...
> John W. Hall <wweexxsseessssaa@telus.net> wrote:
>
>
> And sun and warm air on the ground.
>
> Nick
>
| |
| John W. Hall 2005-10-30, 1:21 am |
| On Sat, 29 Oct 2005 19:30:27 -0400, "Solar Flare" <sflare@hotmail.com>
wrote:
>Yup. The frozen ground doesn't penetrate more than 4 feet deep in a 5 month
>winter but the heat from the earth can travel 4000 miles....LOL
Most of the heat is generated in the crust, not in the core.
--
John W Hall <wweexxsseessssaa@telus.net>
Cochrane, Alberta, Canada.
"Helping People Prosper in the Information Age"
| |
| Stuart Grey 2005-10-30, 1:21 am |
| nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu wrote:
> John W. Hall <wweexxsseessssaa@telus.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> And sun and warm air on the ground.
Are you talking some form of shallow geothermal?
Yes, there may be a workable temperature difference, but there is not
enough heat flow, as someone pointed out, your cold sink is going to
heat up quickly.
| |
| John W. Hall 2005-10-30, 1:21 am |
| On Sat, 29 Oct 2005 21:09:23 -0700, Stuart Grey
<stuart.grey@nospam.comcast.net> wrote:
>nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu wrote:
>...
>
>Are you talking some form of shallow geothermal?
>
>Yes, there may be a workable temperature difference, but there is not
>enough heat flow, as someone pointed out, your cold sink is going to
>heat up quickly.
Well, well, two holes in the ground.
How do systems using groundwater compare to buried loops of pipe?
I expect there could be a lot more unknowns, as its probably difficult
to determine water flows with enough precision. But my guess is that
they would generally be collecting/distributing heat from a rather
larger area than pipe loops.
--
John W Hall <wweexxsseessssaa@telus.net>
Cochrane, Alberta, Canada.
"Helping People Prosper in the Information Age"
| |
| Solar Flare 2005-10-30, 1:21 am |
| I think the molten core is warmer. The crust has cooled off and solid since I
last looked.
Too much insulation between a shallow coil and the heat source anyway otherwise
we wouldn't need to heat our houses at all.
"John W. Hall" <wweexxsseessssaa@telus.net> wrote in message
news:04i8m1prvkuh3r47vfc8tjrq3gdfj8pb19@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 29 Oct 2005 19:30:27 -0400, "Solar Flare" <sflare@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
> Most of the heat is generated in the crust, not in the core.
>
>
> --
> John W Hall <wweexxsseessssaa@telus.net>
> Cochrane, Alberta, Canada.
> "Helping People Prosper in the Information Age"
| |
| Stuart Grey 2005-10-30, 1:21 am |
| John W. Hall wrote:
> On Sat, 29 Oct 2005 21:09:23 -0700, Stuart Grey
> <stuart.grey@nospam.comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Well, well, two holes in the ground.
>
> How do systems using groundwater compare to buried loops of pipe?
> I expect there could be a lot more unknowns, as its probably difficult
> to determine water flows with enough precision. But my guess is that
> they would generally be collecting/distributing heat from a rather
> larger area than pipe loops.
I head they tried it in Iceland; deep geothermal, that is. Works better
there because of all the volcanic activity.
They harvested energy from the drilled hole for a while, then it cooled
off and the lava flow shifted. Something to do with the increased
viscosity of the cooler lava, I bet.
| |
| Strider 2005-10-30, 11:21 pm |
| On Fri, 28 Oct 2005 19:31:56 -0400, RJ <rj_nospam@hotmail.com> wrote:
>On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 22:32:39 -0400, Strider <strider@usit.net> wrote:
>
>
>If the ground loop springs a leak, the repair is very expensive.
>Guess how I know.
>
>RJ
Back when I knew people with these systems. they had been installed
less than five years.
It is the steel pipe rusting that causes the leaks?
Strider
| |
| Strider 2005-10-30, 11:21 pm |
| On Fri, 28 Oct 2005 23:16:07 -0400, "Solar Flare" <sflare@hotmail.com>
wrote:
>Agreed but then your statement was for what purpose?
>
>"Here in NY, we can find 50F about 8' down year round. That's what makes
>ground source heat pumps so effective."
>
>If you remove too much heat from the grouns at any level and there is not an
>infinite heat sink, the ground will freeeze up eventually, given too long of a
>season and not enough cold dispersion.
>
>The point I take offence to is that people think because their is no frost below
>x feet that the ground always is warm at that level, no matter how much heat you
>remove from it. Some will tell you the earth's core heats it.
You cannot remove enough heat to freeze the earth by using a petty
little house size heat exchanger.
That would be a bit like blowing into a hurricanes and getting the
wind to stop.
Strider
>
>"Steve Spence" <sspence@green-trust.org> wrote in message
>news:aDx8f.16921$rE2.3147@fe10.lga...
>
| |
| Strider 2005-10-30, 11:21 pm |
| X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 23
NNTP-Posting-Host: 69.138.146.50
X-Trace: sv3-AHW/3oVJCxaoaRn8omCVkPj9pCxBGA8Mti0ybxkhfzKbAqrnlbaUhd4jrvjpcXSnaW4Tco8iVp4Bckc!FPhatpj2/yTZpUBdOoJkWkkNTmFX4EwkQWoeh83Kf88QLPdV1yncBDBTdr0cJdhFsP/IMODy5OOY!RlLMZuD00rDZEg==
X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net
X-DMCA-Complaints-To: dmca@comcast.net
X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers
X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly
X-Postfilter: 1.3.32
Xref: number1.nntp.dca.giganews.com alt.energy.homepower:119449 alt.energy.renewable:89488 sci.energy:145927 misc.survivalism:894197
On Sat, 29 Oct 2005 17:18:27 -0400, "Solar Flare" <sflare@hotmail.com>
wrote:
>What heat?
>
>Where does it come from? The frozen ground above it?
>
><nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu> wrote in message
>news:dk0cko$6f3@acadia.ece.villanova.edu...
>
Dude, the Earth is molten rock at 4,000 degrees just a few dozen to a
few hundred miles down. The planet is a big assed heater.
Strider
| |
| Strider 2005-10-30, 11:21 pm |
| On Sat, 29 Oct 2005 19:30:27 -0400, "Solar Flare" <sflare@hotmail.com>
wrote:
>Yup. The frozen ground doesn't penetrate more than 4 feet deep in a 5 month
>winter but the heat from the earth can travel 4000 miles....LOL
Yes, that is, in fact, the facts.
Strider
>
>"John W. Hall" <wweexxsseessssaa@telus.net> wrote in message
>news:6js7m1dohlo1o2tbskv44f2hrp53e7sott@4ax.com...
>
| |
| Solar Flare 2005-10-30, 11:21 pm |
| Any metal in the ground is going to corrode. Electrolysis looks after that one
with dissimilar metals in contact with an acid soil.
"Strider" <strider@usit.net> wrote in message
news:esvam11iv3g1kq01n1ro2gn5vhad9c9cau@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 28 Oct 2005 19:31:56 -0400, RJ <rj_nospam@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
than the[color=darkred]
more[color=darkred]
become[color=darkred]
to[color=darkred]
of ice[color=darkred]
heat[color=darkred]
>
> Back when I knew people with these systems. they had been installed
> less than five years.
>
> It is the steel pipe rusting that causes the leaks?
>
> Strider
| |
| Solar Flare 2005-10-30, 11:21 pm |
| Good, next time I will just build my house in the ground and I won't need
heat....LOL
"Strider" <strider@usit.net> wrote in message
news:480bm1l7s4mclq9rte79mp8hbpeaekh8s4@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 29 Oct 2005 19:30:27 -0400, "Solar Flare" <sflare@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
> Yes, that is, in fact, the facts.
>
> Strider
>
>
| |
| Solar Flare 2005-10-30, 11:21 pm |
| Why are we talking about heating our houses then? An insulated home place
directly on the earth should heat itself or did I have to buy the premium
property to do that?
"Strider" <strider@usit.net> wrote in message
news:530bm1t7hlivduipq18u7c33g2kfmu2m7a@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 29 Oct 2005 17:18:27 -0400, "Solar Flare" <sflare@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
> Dude, the Earth is molten rock at 4,000 degrees just a few dozen to a
> few hundred miles down. The planet is a big assed heater.
>
> Strider
| |
| Solar Flare 2005-10-30, 11:21 pm |
| Really? why does it take months for the ground to thaw out in the spring then?
"Strider" <strider@usit.net> wrote in message
news:mvvam195lc4ikvdidti03ml528c5scc809@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 28 Oct 2005 23:16:07 -0400, "Solar Flare" <sflare@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
a[color=darkred]
below[color=darkred]
you[color=darkred]
>
> You cannot remove enough heat to freeze the earth by using a petty
> little house size heat exchanger.
>
> That would be a bit like blowing into a hurricanes and getting the
> wind to stop.
>
> Strider
>
>
| |
| Strider 2005-10-30, 11:21 pm |
| On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 21:40:17 -0500, "Solar Flare" <sflare@hotmail.com>
wrote:
>Any metal in the ground is going to corrode. Electrolysis looks after that one
>with dissimilar metals in contact with an acid soil.
Oh, try corroding copper.
Strider
>
>"Strider" <strider@usit.net> wrote in message
>news:esvam11iv3g1kq01n1ro2gn5vhad9c9cau@4ax.com...
>than the
>more
>become
>to
>of ice
>heat
>
| |
| Strider 2005-10-30, 11:21 pm |
| On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 21:41:16 -0500, "Solar Flare" <sflare@hotmail.com>
wrote:
>Good, next time I will just build my house in the ground and I won't need
>heat....LOL
Have you been out of the home for long?
Strider
>
>"Strider" <strider@usit.net> wrote in message
>news:480bm1l7s4mclq9rte79mp8hbpeaekh8s4@4ax.com...
>
| |
| Strider 2005-10-30, 11:21 pm |
| On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 21:42:36 -0500, "Solar Flare" <sflare@hotmail.com>
wrote:
>Why are we talking about heating our houses then? An insulated home place
>directly on the earth should heat itself or did I have to buy the premium
>property to do that?
Because the part sticking above the ground loses heat faster than the
part on the surface of the ground.
Are you familiar with caves, root cellars, and underground homes?
Strider
>
>"Strider" <strider@usit.net> wrote in message
>news:530bm1t7hlivduipq18u7c33g2kfmu2m7a@4ax.com...
>
| |
| Strider 2005-10-30, 11:21 pm |
| On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 21:43:26 -0500, "Solar Flare" <sflare@hotmail.com>
wrote:
>Really? why does it take months for the ground to thaw out in the spring then?
and this happens where?
Are you really this ignorant or are you just trolling?
Strider
>
>"Strider" <strider@usit.net> wrote in message
>news:mvvam195lc4ikvdidti03ml528c5scc809@4ax.com...
>a
>below
>you
>
| |
| Solar Flare 2005-10-30, 11:21 pm |
| Plumbing in my area develops leaks all the time. It took them many years to
discover we have "aggresive water" that eats at the impurities in the copper and
voila, you have a pinhole ten years later.
Copper is better than aluminum. It lasts longer in car radiators than aluminum
but not forever.
"Strider" <strider@usit.net> wrote in message
news:j32bm1p4bm877smjmkdh13k7jt5tmjv7op@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 21:40:17 -0500, "Solar Flare" <sflare@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
one[color=darkred]
>
> Oh, try corroding copper.
>
> Strider
>
supplying[color=darkred]
summer[color=darkred]
block[color=darkred]
getting[color=darkred]
>
| |
| Solar Flare 2005-10-30, 11:21 pm |
| Yes, They are very cold in the winter, but warmer than outside.
Are you familiar with hot springs?
"Strider" <strider@usit.net> wrote in message
news:pb2bm15brg7kb4tavgnv17goq6lejfqe8m@4ax.com...
> Are you familiar with caves, root cellars, and underground homes?
>
> Strider
>
>
| |
| Solar Flare 2005-10-30, 11:21 pm |
| Can you not answer?
"Strider" <strider@usit.net> wrote in message
news:4e2bm194fvn7l287stv5e14cab02hsa6k3@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 21:43:26 -0500, "Solar Flare" <sflare@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
then?[color=darkred]
>
> and this happens where?
>
> Are you really this ignorant or are you just trolling?
>
> Strider
>
an[color=darkred]
of[color=darkred]
heat[color=darkred]
>
| |
| Strider 2005-10-31, 12:21 am |
| On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 22:15:07 -0500, "Solar Flare" <sflare@hotmail.com>
wrote:
>Yes, They are very cold in the winter, but warmer than outside.
No they are not very cold in the winter. Cave in these parts stay 55
degrees, no matter how cold it gets outside. Root cellars temps vary
directly with their depth. Any below about 24 inches also stay at 55
degrees provided they are sufficiently sealed from the outside.
Underground homes, given they are below a depth universally known as
the freeze line, will not get below freezing, no matter how cold the
outside air gets.
Can you imagine why all this is true?
>
>Are you familiar with hot springs?
Yes I am. They exists for the same reason that underground houses stay
warm.
Strider
>
>
>"Strider" <strider@usit.net> wrote in message
>news:pb2bm15brg7kb4tavgnv17goq6lejfqe8m@4ax.com...
>
| |
|
|
| Strider 2005-10-31, 12:21 am |
| On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 22:15:51 -0500, "Solar Flare" <sflare@hotmail.com>
wrote:
>Can you not answer?
The answer takes quite a bit more basic knowledge of physics and the
planet than you seem to posses. As a matter of fact, my ten year old
daughter has a pretty good grasp of why underground dwellings stay
warm and I'm pretty sure that she could figure out why permafrost in
the sub arctic take awhile to thaw.
Dude, finish high school and get back to me.
Strider
>
>"Strider" <strider@usit.net> wrote in message
>news:4e2bm194fvn7l287stv5e14cab02hsa6k3@4ax.com...
>then?
>an
>of
>heat
>
| |
| Strider 2005-10-31, 12:21 am |
| On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 03:44:17 GMT, bwardREMOVE@ix.netcom.com (Bill
Ward) wrote:
>On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 22:15:51 -0500, "Solar Flare"
><sflare@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>http://wwwrses.anu.edu.au/~jean/GEOL3005/Heat/Heat.html
Bill, this is way, WAY over this guy's head.
If he can figure out how to make the link work, there is no way he
will be able to figure out:
"To maintain a non-linear temperature gradient inside a continuum of
uniform conductivity for long periods of time requires that there
exist internal heat sources."
Can you come up with something on a middle school level?
Strider
| |
| Solar Flare 2005-10-31, 12:21 am |
| Thermal mass and supreme insulation. This has nothing to do with a molten
earth's core 2000 miles down. This has to do with nobody removing the heat from
the caves.
Your point is moot on this issue of ground frost. If the outside temperature
stayed below freezing the caves would freeze inside eventually.
The snow on the ground doesn;t cool the earths core much the same as the earths
core doesn't melt all the snow because of the insulation properties of the
ground. Dry ground.
Google "Geothermal heat pumps"
"Strider" <strider@usit.net> wrote in message
news:bc4bm1d9fbfebbjue197v4luhe8ushvub2@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 22:15:07 -0500, "Solar Flare" <sflare@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
> No they are not very cold in the winter. Cave in these parts stay 55
> degrees, no matter how cold it gets outside. Root cellars temps vary
> directly with their depth. Any below about 24 inches also stay at 55
> degrees provided they are sufficiently sealed from the outside.
> Underground homes, given they are below a depth universally known as
> the freeze line, will not get below freezing, no matter how cold the
> outside air gets.
>
> Can you imagine why all this is true?
>
>
> Yes I am. They exists for the same reason that underground houses stay
> warm.
>
> Strider
>
>
| |
| Solar Flare 2005-10-31, 12:21 am |
| Thanx for the math and the charts.
I rest my case on that one. The charts say it all. My home takes about 40,000
BTU/hr to heat in the winter.
uW from chemistry in the earth's crust won't do it.
"Bill Ward" <bwardREMOVE@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:436594ba.25916401@localhost...
> On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 22:15:51 -0500, "Solar Flare"
> <sflare@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> http://wwwrses.anu.edu.au/~jean/GEOL3005/Heat/Heat.html
| |
| Bill Ward 2005-10-31, 1:21 am |
| On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 22:49:25 -0500, Strider
<strider@usit.net> wrote:
>On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 03:44:17 GMT, bwardREMOVE@ix.netcom.com (Bill
>Ward) wrote:
>
>
>Bill, this is way, WAY over this guy's head.
>
>If he can figure out how to make the link work, there is no way he
>will be able to figure out:
>
>"To maintain a non-linear temperature gradient inside a continuum of
>uniform conductivity for long periods of time requires that there
>exist internal heat sources."
>
>Can you come up with something on a middle school level?
>
>Strider
Sorry. There's a table near the bottom that shows heat flow
out of the earth toward the surface in milliwatts per square
meter. From that you can see how much energy the ground
gets from below. You can ignore the rH term, as that's the
heat from radioactive decay, which makes the temp vs depth
nonlinear..
<begin quote>
Surface Heat Flow and Heat Production Data for Sierra Nevada
Mountains
q (mW/m2) rH (mW/m3)
18 0.3
25 0.8
25 0.9
29 1.3
31 1.5
34 2.0
42 2.6
54 3.7
<end quote>
I just googled something like "earth heat flow" and picked
the first reasonable hit. There are probably better ones,
but I was lazy.
Another factoid is the increasing T with depth in mines. I
don't have the exact figures, but I know South African deep
mines get pretty awful hot. Deep wells show the same
effect.
Here's another link that may be a little more accessible:
http://www.earthscape.org/t1/rij01/rij01b.html
<begin quote>
Fourier’s law of heat flow applied to the earth gives
q = M g
where q is the heat flux at a point on the Earth’s surface,
M the thermal conductivity of the rocks there, and g the
measured geothermal gradient. A representative value for the
thermal conductivity of granitic rocks is M = 3.0 W /m degK.
Hence, using the global average geothermal gradient of 0.02
deg K/m we get that q = 0.06 W/m2 . This estimate, which is
corroborated by integration of many thousands of
observations of heat flow in boreholes all over the world,
gives a global average of 63 mW/m2
<end quote>
Slightly different (global average), but in the ball park.
The link also gives a bit more detail on T vs depth.
The bottom line is that ground sourced heat pumps can work
without freezing up, if you don't take out more heat than is
coming in.
Hope this helps.
Regards,
Bill Ward
| |
| Gunner Asch 2005-10-31, 2:21 am |
| On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 21:26:21 -0500, Strider <strider@usit.net> wrote:
>On Sat, 29 Oct 2005 17:18:27 -0400, "Solar Flare" <sflare@hotmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>
>Dude, the Earth is molten rock at 4,000 degrees just a few dozen to a
>few hundred miles down. The planet is a big assed heater.
>
>Strider
Then where do ice caves come from?
Gunner, ducking and running
"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.
Think of it as having your older brother knock the shit out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner
| |
| Darron 2005-10-31, 3:21 am |
|
"Solar Flare" <sflare@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Ncmdne21TPEuC_jenZ2dnUVZ_tKdnZ2d@golden.net...
> Thanx for the math and the charts.
>
> I rest my case on that one. The charts say it all. My home takes about
40,000
> BTU/hr to heat in the winter.
>
> uW from chemistry in the earth's crust won't do it.
That's why you create a grid (holes drilled in the ground with tubing up and
down(one insulated)) with greater area and depth than your house, preferably
in the path of moving ground water. You then use a heat pump (reverse
refrigerator) to remove heat from the ground-water until it almost
freezes(if you want the maximum amount of heat available).
| |
| Strider 2005-10-31, 9:21 am |
| On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 05:17:24 GMT, Gunner Asch <gunner@lightspeed.net>
wrote:
>On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 21:26:21 -0500, Strider <strider@usit.net> wrote:
>
>
>Then where do ice caves come from?
It's a matter of local temperature balance and draft.
Strider
>
>Gunner, ducking and running
>
>"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
>Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
>off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
>them self determination under "play nice" rules.
>
>Think of it as having your older brother knock the shit out of you
>for torturing the cat." Gunner
| |
| Strider 2005-10-31, 9:21 am |
| On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 23:00:22 -0500, "Solar Flare" <sflare@hotmail.com>
wrote:
>Thanx for the math and the charts.
>
>I rest my case on that one. The charts say it all. My home takes about 40,000
>BTU/hr to heat in the winter.
>
>uW from chemistry in the earth's crust won't do it.
How do you explain that mines get hotter as they go deeper?
Strider
>
>
>"Bill Ward" <bwardREMOVE@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
>news:436594ba.25916401@localhost...
>
| |
| Strider 2005-10-31, 9:21 am |
| On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 23:01:04 -0500, "Solar Flare" <sflare@hotmail.com>
wrote:
>Better ask her then because you couldn't answer the question.
>
Since you skipped over that question, then I assume that you are
trolling, although I cannot completely eliminate stupidity as your
malfunction at this point. Moat trolls seem better educated, if
malicious.
Strider
>"Strider" <strider@usit.net> wrote in message
>news:kl4bm1l5lsnrl7qfphesro8gc0ro0amevk@4ax.com...
>makes
>not
>long
>frost
>pump.
>has
>than
>in
>
| |
|
|
| Steve Spence 2005-10-31, 4:21 pm |
| Solar Flare wrote:
> Good, next time I will just build my house in the ground and I won't need
> heat....LOL
>
Good point. Stayed with a friend a few years back with a underground
house. With everything off, the house stayed around 55F, with just
regular appliances running, and people in the house, the temp stayed at 75F.
--
Steve Spence
Dir., Green Trust, http://www.green-trust.org
Contributing Editor, http://www.off-grid.net
http://www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html
| |
| Steve Spence 2005-10-31, 4:21 pm |
| Solar Flare wrote:
> Why are we talking about heating our houses then? An insulated home place
> directly on the earth should heat itself or did I have to buy the premium
> property to do that?
>
Air infiltration, wind, and ambient air temps.
--
Steve Spence
Dir., Green Trust, http://www.green-trust.org
Contributing Editor, http://www.off-grid.net
http://www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html
| |
|
|
| Solar Flare 2005-10-31, 9:21 pm |
| You change your mind quick.
"No they are not very cold in the winter. Cave in these parts stay 55
degrees, no matter how cold it gets outside. Root cellars temps vary
directly with their depth. Any below about 24 inches also stay at 55
degrees provided they are sufficiently sealed from the outside.
Underground homes, given they are below a depth universally known as
the freeze line, will not get below freezing, no matter how cold the
outside air gets."
"Strider" <strider@usit.net> wrote in message
news:ed3cm1l1bdc5onearaeqsevemk06v48lkf@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 05:17:24 GMT, Gunner Asch <gunner@lightspeed.net>
> wrote:
>
>
> It's a matter of local temperature balance and draft.
>
> Strider
| |
| Solar Flare 2005-10-31, 9:21 pm |
| Good points and information.
Agrees with the initial point.
Thanx
"Bill Ward" <bwardREMOVE@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:4365a361.29667880@localhost...
> On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 22:49:25 -0500, Strider
> <strider@usit.net> wrote:
>
>
> Sorry. There's a table near the bottom that shows heat flow
> out of the earth toward the surface in milliwatts per square
> meter. From that you can see how much energy the ground
> gets from below. You can ignore the rH term, as that's the
> heat from radioactive decay, which makes the temp vs depth
> nonlinear..
>
> <begin quote>
> Surface Heat Flow and Heat Production Data for Sierra Nevada
> Mountains
> q (mW/m2) rH (mW/m3)
> 18 0.3
> 25 0.8
> 25 0.9
> 29 1.3
> 31 1.5
> 34 2.0
> 42 2.6
> 54 3.7
> <end quote>
>
> I just googled something like "earth heat flow" and picked
> the first reasonable hit. There are probably better ones,
> but I was lazy.
>
> Another factoid is the increasing T with depth in mines. I
> don't have the exact figures, but I know South African deep
> mines get pretty awful hot. Deep wells show the same
> effect.
>
> Here's another link that may be a little more accessible:
>
> http://www.earthscape.org/t1/rij01/rij01b.html
>
> <begin quote>
> Fouriers law of heat flow applied to the earth gives
>
> q = M g
>
> where q is the heat flux at a point on the Earths surface,
> M the thermal conductivity of the rocks there, and g the
> measured geothermal gradient. A representative value for the
> thermal conductivity of granitic rocks is M = 3.0 W /m degK.
> Hence, using the global average geothermal gradient of 0.02
> deg K/m we get that q = 0.06 W/m2 . This estimate, which is
> corroborated by integration of many thousands of
> observations of heat flow in boreholes all over the world,
> gives a global average of 63 mW/m2
> <end quote>
>
> Slightly different (global average), but in the ball park.
>
> The link also gives a bit more detail on T vs depth.
>
> The bottom line is that ground sourced heat pumps can work
> without freezing up, if you don't take out more heat than is
> coming in.
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> Regards,
>
> Bill Ward
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
| |
| Solar Flare 2005-10-31, 9:21 pm |
| Thanx for supporting my point.
"Darron" <Darron_at_HomeNOSPAM@Hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:cwj9f.92350$ir4.72193@edtnps90...
>
> "Solar Flare" <sflare@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:Ncmdne21TPEuC_jenZ2dnUVZ_tKdnZ2d@golden.net...
> 40,000
> That's why you create a grid (holes drilled in the ground with tubing up and
> down(one insulated)) with greater area and depth than your house, preferably
> in the path of moving ground water. You then use a heat pump (reverse
> refrigerator) to remove heat from the ground-water until it almost
> freezes(if you want the maximum amount of heat available).
>
>
| |
| Solar Flare 2005-10-31, 9:21 pm |
| Just as I posted.
"Strider" <strider@usit.net> wrote in message
news:of3cm1hqepdvin30uohfncdvrjp51422sk@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 23:00:22 -0500, "Solar Flare" <sflare@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
> How do you explain that mines get hotter as they go deeper?
>
> Strider
>
>
| |
| Solar Flare 2005-10-31, 9:21 pm |
| blah, blah, blah. Poor attempt
"Strider" <strider@usit.net> wrote in message
news:ej3cm15uucodka61jad6ddg7o5g5isq6fc@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 23:01:04 -0500, "Solar Flare" <sflare@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Since you skipped over that question, then I assume that you are
> trolling, although I cannot completely eliminate stupidity as your
> malfunction at this point. Moat trolls seem better educated, if
> malicious.
>
> Strider
>
spring[color=darkred]
<sflare@hotmail.com>[color=darkred]
is[color=darkred]
much[color=darkred]
would[color=darkred]
ice[color=darkred]
your[color=darkred]
>
| |
|
|
| Strider 2005-10-31, 11:21 pm |
| On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 19:21:31 -0500, "Solar Flare" <sflare@hotmail.com>
wrote:
>You change your mind quick.
>
>"No they are not very cold in the winter. Cave in these parts stay 55
>degrees, no matter how cold it gets outside. Root cellars temps vary
>directly with their depth. Any below about 24 inches also stay at 55
>degrees provided they are sufficiently sealed from the outside.
>Underground homes, given they are below a depth universally known as
>the freeze line, will not get below freezing, no matter how cold the
>outside air gets."
There are no ice caves in Tennessee, Ditz. I've been in twenty or so
in the Eastern part of the state, mostly in winter, and every one
breathed OUT and stayed at 55 degrees all winter.
Strider
>
>"Strider" <strider@usit.net> wrote in message
>news:ed3cm1l1bdc5onearaeqsevemk06v48lkf@4ax.com...
>
| |
| Strider 2005-10-31, 11:21 pm |
| On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 19:24:56 -0500, "Solar Flare" <sflare@hotmail.com>
wrote:
>Just as I posted.
>
No you didn't. You said that a heat pump system would drain the heat
out of the Earth and it would freeze.
Strider
>"Strider" <strider@usit.net> wrote in message
>news:of3cm1hqepdvin30uohfncdvrjp51422sk@4ax.com...
>
| |
| Strider 2005-10-31, 11:21 pm |
| On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 19:25:20 -0500, "Solar Flare" <sflare@hotmail.com>
wrote:
>blah, blah, blah. Poor attempt
Indeed.
Strider
>
>"Strider" <strider@usit.net> wrote in message
>news:ej3cm15uucodka61jad6ddg7o5g5isq6fc@4ax.com...
>spring
><sflare@hotmail.com>
>is
>much
>would
>ice
>your
>
| |
|
| On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 07:15:20 GMT, "Darron"
<Darron_at_HomeNOSPAM@Hotmail.com> wrote:
>"Solar Flare" <sflare@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:Ncmdne21TPEuC_jenZ2dnUVZ_tKdnZ2d@golden.net...
>40,000
>That's why you create a grid (holes drilled in the ground with tubing up and
>down(one insulated)) with greater area and depth than your house, preferably
>in the path of moving ground water. You then use a heat pump (reverse
>refrigerator) to remove heat from the ground-water until it almost
>freezes(if you want the maximum amount of heat available).
Not a very good conductor of heat I suspect.
An injection well and one to remove the warmed water might be
better <G>.
--
Cliff
| |
|
| On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 07:29:48 -0500, Strider <strider@usit.net> wrote:
>On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 23:00:22 -0500, "Solar Flare" <sflare@hotmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>
>How do you explain that mines get hotter as they go deeper?
<sheesh>
They are farther from the cooler surface to begin
with and there's lots of BTUs in those rocks.
Given *enough* time & cooling ....
--
Cliff
| |
|
| On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 07:32:08 -0500, Strider <strider@usit.net> wrote:
>Moat trolls seem better educated, if malicious.
Educated perhaps but I always thought bridges ....
--
Cliff
| |
|
| On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 21:42:18 -0500, Strider <strider@usit.net> wrote:
>There are no ice caves in Tennessee, Ditz. I've been in twenty or so
>in the Eastern part of the state, mostly in winter, and every one
>breathed OUT
Where did the air going OUT come from?
--
Cliff
| |
|
| On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 21:40:17 -0500, "Solar Flare" <sflare@hotmail.com>
wrote:
>Any metal in the ground is going to corrode. Electrolysis looks after that one
>with dissimilar metals in contact with an acid soil.
Someone seems a bit confused.
--
Cliff
| |
|
| On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 21:59:29 -0500, Strider <strider@usit.net> wrote:
>On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 21:40:17 -0500, "Solar Flare" <sflare@hotmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>
>Oh, try corroding copper.
More than one seems confused.
--
Cliff
| |
| nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu 2005-11-01, 8:21 am |
| Strider <strider@usit.net> wrote:
>There are no ice caves in Tennessee, Ditz. I've been in twenty or so
>in the Eastern part of the state, mostly in winter, and every one
>breathed OUT and stayed at 55 degrees all winter.
Maybe ice caves only happen in the Frozen North, a la Superman.
Then again, a cave with an opening at the top is a natural cool trap, since
warm air rises. With some containers of water to freeze and a drain and
insulation from warmer earth walls, we might make a nice fridge or freezer.
Nick
| |
| Strider 2005-11-01, 8:21 am |
| On 1 Nov 2005 06:25:07 -0500, nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu wrote:
>Strider <strider@usit.net> wrote:
>
>
>Maybe ice caves only happen in the Frozen North, a la Superman.
>
>Then again, a cave with an opening at the top is a natural cool trap, since
>warm air rises. With some containers of water to freeze and a drain and
>insulation from warmer earth walls, we might make a nice fridge or freezer.
>
>Nick
I suspect that ice caves have vents at two points, causing outside
air to flow through.
Caves breath in during warm weather and out during cold.
Strider
| |
| r2000swler@hotmail.com 2005-11-01, 10:21 am |
|
Strider wrote:
>
> I suspect that ice caves have vents at two points, causing outside
> air to flow through.
>
> Caves breath in during warm weather and out during cold.
>
> Strider
+++++++++++++++++
>From way back when:
Newsgroups: misc.survivalism
From: Dauven
Date: 1998/08/27
Subject: Re: Make Ice Without Electricity (IT'S EASY!)
I don't know about the hammer and steel block method but mother nature
seems to carry off the trick using water drippin in a lava cave in the
desert of Idaho. The water evaporates becasue it is 95-120 degrees out
there on the lava flows. As lava is very porous it make a wonderful
insulator, and the removal of the heat by the evaporation of the water
drops the temp to the cave to just below 32 degrees with causes the
water to freeze. So we now have Ice caves with a solid sheet of ice n
the floor covered by a sheen of water. By the way the ice sheet on the
floor melts during the winter when the temps out side are below 32
degrees you figure that one out.
Jim in Ore.
| |
| Solar Flare 2005-11-01, 7:21 pm |
| Quick! make up your mind!
>Underground homes, given they are below a depth universally known as
>the freeze line, will not get below freezing,
"no matter how cold the outside air gets."
There are no ice caves in Tennessee, Ditz. I've been in twenty or so
in the Eastern part of the state, mostly in winter, and every one
breathed OUT and stayed at 55 degrees all winter.
Strider
| |
| Solar Flare 2005-11-01, 7:21 pm |
| You are correct. I posted that.
"Strider" <strider@usit.net> wrote in message
news:fhldm1troj2dvd65coht6uqud98angjob0@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 19:24:56 -0500, "Solar Flare" <sflare@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> No you didn't. You said that a heat pump system would drain the heat
> out of the Earth and it would freeze.
>
> Strider
>
40,000[color=darkred]
>
| |
| Strider 2005-11-01, 10:21 pm |
| On Tue, 1 Nov 2005 18:03:52 -0500, "Solar Flare"
<s.flare@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Quick! make up your mind!
>
HAve you been an idiot all your life or did heavy use of narcotics
cause the problem?
>
> "no matter how cold the outside air gets."
>
>There are no ice caves in Tennessee, Ditz. I've been in twenty or so
>in the Eastern part of the state, mostly in winter, and every one
>breathed OUT and stayed at 55 degrees all winter.
>
>Strider
What inconsistency do you see here?
Strider
| |
| Strider 2005-11-01, 10:21 pm |
| On Tue, 1 Nov 2005 18:05:40 -0500, "Solar Flare"
<s.flare@hotmail.com> wrote:
>You are correct. I posted that.
and you are wrong.
Strider
>
>"Strider" <strider@usit.net> wrote in message
>news:fhldm1troj2dvd65coht6uqud98angjob0@4ax.com...
>40,000
>
| |
| Stuart Grey 2005-11-02, 12:21 am |
| Solar Flare wrote:
> Any metal in the ground is going to corrode. Electrolysis looks after that one
> with dissimilar metals in contact with an acid soil.
Now, I know you're a bullshitter... I know you're into ridicule... But
I'm going to engage you in conversation anyway. :-) I'm more talking at
you for the sake of other people, rather than to you because you don't
listen.
Any problem you have with a metal (steel, copper) in the ground can be
fixed with a sacrificial zinc. The zinc corrodes, the pipe doesn't.
Now, regarding Geothermal energy, or shallow geothermal. Your COP is
dependent upon the temperature difference, yes, you can pump heat from
the shallow ground to the surface to heat your home. Once the ground is
cooler than your house, you're not driving a heat pump any more, but
rather a refrigerator. Given the thermal conductivity of the soil, and
the heat capacity of dirt, you won't get much out of it. I've never run
the numbers for this because, well, it doesn't look too practical on the
face of it.
| |
| Stuart Grey 2005-11-02, 12:21 am |
| Strider wrote:
> On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 21:41:16 -0500, "Solar Flare" <sflare@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Have you been out of the home for long?
>
> Strider
>
Ironically, one of the big problems with small fallout shelters dug
underground is removing the heat. Solar Fart doesn't know the irony in
his statement!
There are many plans for dirt insulated solar homes out there. For a
solar advocate, he doesn't seem to know shit about solar.
| |
| Stuart Grey 2005-11-02, 1:21 am |
| Solar Flare wrote:[color=darkred]
> Can you not answer?
>
> "Strider" <strider@usit.net> wrote in message
> news:4e2bm194fvn7l287stv5e14cab02hsa6k3@4ax.com...
>
>
> then?
>
If you check your building codes, you will find that there are
requirements for the depth below the surface for building foundations.
This depth is chosen to be highly improbable that the ground below the
foundation will freeze. Freezing causing heaving and heaving can damage
the foundation.
Once you go below this depth, the ground rarely freezes. Go deeper
still, and you'll reach a depth where the ground is at a constant
temperature, all year long.
This whole effect has to do with heat capacity and heat flow, which you
clearly don't understand.
| |
| nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu 2005-11-02, 2:21 am |
| Stuart Grey <stuart.grey@nospam.comcast.net> wrote:
>... one of the big problems with small fallout shelters dug
>underground is removing the heat.
Sounds odd. Tell us more...
Nick
| |
| Tim May 2005-11-02, 2:21 am |
| In article <dk9k6v$aaq@acadia.ece.villanova.edu>,
<nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu> wrote:
> Stuart Grey <stuart.grey@nospam.comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
> Sounds odd. Tell us more...
>
There is no such problem. Most ground areas are well below body
temperature. Depends on lattitude, mostly.
In most temperate lattitudes, 32-43 N, average ground temps are well
below body temp. These places will feel "cool."
Body mass and food converted to energy will not _budge_ a mass of tens
of thousands of kilos of cool soil. Do the math.
--Tim May
| |
| nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu 2005-11-02, 3:21 am |
| Tim May <timcmay@removethis.got.net> wrote:
>
>There is no such problem...
There could be, but it seems more likely in a large shelter.
>Body mass and food converted to energy will not _budge_ a mass of tens
>of thousands of kilos of cool soil. Do the math.
Body mass is converted to energy? :-) Electrical energy usage or heat from
a generator might be larger problems, and soil has thermal conductance, as
little as 5.4 Btu-in/h-ft^2-F for sand, according the ASHRAE Handbook of
fundamentals. Can you "do the math"?
Deep soil is 72.6 F in Phoenix. What's the steady state temp of an 8' cube
with 2 300 Btu/h people inside? How about a 32' cube with 128 people?
Nick
| |
| nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu 2005-11-02, 9:21 am |
| >Tim May <timcmay@removethis.got.net> wrote:
>
Wrong again. Perhaps you should avoid such pontifications, or use numbers.
[color=darkred]
>There could be, but it seems more likely in a large shelter.
>
>
>Body mass is converted to energy? :-) Electrical energy usage or heat from
>a generator might be larger problems, and soil has thermal conductance, as
>little as 5.4 Btu-in/h-ft^2-F for sand, according the ASHRAE Handbook of
>fundamentals. Can you "do the math"?
Give up? :-)
>Deep soil is 72.6 F in Phoenix. What's the steady state temp of an 8' cube
>with 2 300 Btu/h people inside? How about a 32' cube with 128 people?
20 GG=5.4'soil conductivity (Btu-in/h-ft^2)
30 RG=12/GG'soil resistivity (R-value per foot)
40 FOR L=8 TO 32 STEP 8'cube edge length (feet)
50 PEOPLE=2*L^3/512'number of people in cube
60 HEAT=300*PEOPLE'people heat output (Btu/h)
70 TSOIL=72.6'deep soil temp in Phoenix (F)
80 RCUBE=0'initialize cube resistance
90 FOR LSHEL= L TO L+20'add resistances of 1'-thick cubical soil shells
100 ASHEL=6*LSHEL^2'outer shell area
110 RSHEL=RG/ASHEL'shell resistance
120 RCUBE=RCUBE+RSHEL'accumulate cube resistance
130 NEXT LSHEL
140 PRINT L,TSOIL+HEAT*RCUBE
150 NEXT L
cube size cube temp
8 feet 94.3895 F
16 138.5524
24 193.0548
32 253.17
Larger cubes with more people and lower surface to volume ratios are warmer.
Nick
| |
| Cliff 2005-11-02, 10:21 am |
| On Tue, 01 Nov 2005 07:03:23 -0500, Strider <strider@usit.net> wrote:
>Caves breath in during warm weather and out during cold.
Clearly you are an idiot.
--
Cliff
| |
| Cliff 2005-11-02, 11:21 am |
| On 1 Nov 2005 05:43:39 -0800, r2000swler@hotmail.com wrote:
>in the
>desert of Idaho. The water evaporates becasue it is 95-120 degrees out
>there on the lava flows. As lava is very porous it make a wonderful
>insulator, and the removal of the heat by the evaporation of the water
>drops the temp to the cave to just below 32 degrees with causes the
>water to freeze.
That's wrong too.
--
Cliff
| |
| Cliff 2005-11-02, 11:21 am |
| On Tue, 1 Nov 2005 18:03:52 -0500, "Solar Flare"
<s.flare@hotmail.com> wrote:
>and every one
>breathed OUT and stayed at 55 degrees all winter.
Gee .... how long did they pant out?
Few here seem to know much of anything.
It's amazing.
--
Cliff
| |
| Solar Flare 2005-11-02, 11:21 am |
| I wonder what happenned to the "earth's molten core" provides infinite heat in
these caves?....LOL
"Cliff" <Clhuprich@aol.com> wrote in message
news:akihm1thh172vlv0ns80jfdqif4b267hf7@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 1 Nov 2005 18:03:52 -0500, "Solar Flare"
> <s.flare@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Gee .... how long did they pant out?
> Few here seem to know much of anything.
> It's amazing.
> --
> Cliff
| |
| Cliff 2005-11-02, 11:21 am |
| On Tue, 01 Nov 2005 20:07:40 -0800, Stuart Grey
<stuart.grey@nospam.comcast.net> wrote:
>Solar Flare wrote:
>
>Now, I know you're a bullshitter... I know you're into ridicule... But
>I'm going to engage you in conversation anyway. :-) I'm more talking at
>you for the sake of other people, rather than to you because you don't
>listen.
>
>Any problem you have with a metal (steel, copper) in the ground can be
>fixed with a sacrificial zinc. The zinc corrodes, the pipe doesn't.
I smell yet more of Stewie's BS
Metals: Magnesium, Beryllium, Aluminum & Manganese
would all corrode near Zinc in electrically conductive fluid.
What of Stainless?
--
Cliff
| |
| Cliff 2005-11-02, 11:21 am |
| On Tue, 01 Nov 2005 20:07:40 -0800, Stuart Grey
<stuart.grey@nospam.comcast.net> wrote:
>Now, regarding Geothermal energy, or shallow geothermal. Your COP is
>dependent upon the temperature difference, yes, you can pump heat from
>the shallow ground to the surface to heat your home. Once the ground is
>cooler than your house, you're not driving a heat pump any more, but
>rather a refrigerator. Given the thermal conductivity of the soil, and
>the heat capacity of dirt, you won't get much out of it.
Idiot. It's just pumping BTUs.
>I've never run
>the numbers for this because, well,
You'd not have any idea how.
>it doesn't look too practical on the
>face of it.
You've never taken a Science class in your life I expect. OR
any engineering of any sort.
Just another lying winger full of endless BS.
We know your type.
--
Cliff
| |
| Stuart Grey 2005-11-02, 1:21 pm |
| nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu wrote:
> Stuart Grey <stuart.grey@nospam.comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Sounds odd. Tell us more...
>
> Nick
See chapter 6, Ventilation and Cooling, of your "Nuclear War Survival
Skills" by Kearny.
| |
| Stuart Grey 2005-11-02, 1:21 pm |
| Tim May wrote:
> In article <dk9k6v$aaq@acadia.ece.villanova.edu>,
> <nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> There is no such problem. Most ground areas are well below body
> temperature. Depends on lattitude, mostly.
Yes, they are. And in most falloutshelters, you pack in about 1 person
per 10 square feet of floor. People burn about 2000 kcal (1 diet Cal =
1000 chemistry & physics calories) and they are efficent little heaters.
It doesn't take long for the walls to absorb all the head they are going
to absorb, the the shelter gets hot. There's been a number of Navy
Studies on this that you.
"Shelter Occupancy Studies at the university of Georgia, Final Report"
Hammes and Thomas, OCD Contract No. OCD-PS-66-25, 1966
"Enviromental Physiology of Shelter Habitation" Dasler and Minard,
presented at the ASHRAE seminannual meeting, Chicago, Jan 1965
"Studies of the Bureau of Yards and Docs Protective Shelter", NRL Report
5882, US Naval Research Lab, Dec 1962.
Dirt is a poor conductor. I'm sure that YOU can do the equations, having
been a device physicsist for some semiconductor foundry. Assume a
spherical shelter, it makes it simpler.
Just think of a luau. They roast the pig, the ground holds the heat in.
:-) ummm... pork Good....
> In most temperate lattitudes, 32-43 N, average ground temps are well
> below body temp. These places will feel "cool."
Yep. That's cuz in most places underground, what bodies are there are dead.
> Body mass and food converted to energy will not _budge_ a mass of tens
> of thousands of kilos of cool soil. Do the math.
You neglect heat conduction. Note that you can stand right by a camp
fire and not burn the soles of your feet. Build your fire on a copper
plate and try that! Your feet will fry. Dirt is a poor conductor of
heat, even though it has a decent heat capacity. If it wasn't so, we
would have never come to the iron age.
| |
| Stuart Grey 2005-11-02, 1:21 pm |
| nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu wrote:
> Tim May <timcmay@removethis.got.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> There could be, but it seems more likely in a large shelter.
It has to do with the surface area of the shelter and the number of heat
generating units (people) inside the shelter.
The same physics that keeps the ground cool year-round will keep it hot
if you put too many people in it.
Which is why this heat pump idea will not work.
>
>
> Body mass is converted to energy? :-) Electrical energy usage or heat from
> a generator might be larger problems, and soil has thermal conductance, as
> little as 5.4 Btu-in/h-ft^2-F for sand, according the ASHRAE Handbook of
> fundamentals. Can you "do the math"?
>
> Deep soil is 72.6 F in Phoenix. What's the steady state temp of an 8' cube
> with 2 300 Btu/h people inside? How about a 32' cube with 128 people?
>
> Nick
>
| |
| Stuart Grey 2005-11-02, 1:21 pm |
| nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu wrote:
>
>
> Wrong again. Perhaps you should avoid such pontifications, or use numbers.
>
>
>
>
> Give up? :-)
>
>
>
>
> 20 GG=5.4'soil conductivity (Btu-in/h-ft^2)
> 30 RG=12/GG'soil resistivity (R-value per foot)
> 40 FOR L=8 TO 32 STEP 8'cube edge length (feet)
> 50 PEOPLE=2*L^3/512'number of people in cube
> 60 HEAT=300*PEOPLE'people heat output (Btu/h)
> 70 TSOIL=72.6'deep soil temp in Phoenix (F)
> 80 RCUBE=0'initialize cube resistance
> 90 FOR LSHEL= L TO L+20'add resistances of 1'-thick cubical soil shells
> 100 ASHEL=6*LSHEL^2'outer shell area
> 110 RSHEL=RG/ASHEL'shell resistance
> 120 RCUBE=RCUBE+RSHEL'accumulate cube resistance
> 130 NEXT LSHEL
> 140 PRINT L,TSOIL+HEAT*RCUBE
> 150 NEXT L
Basic? Who has a basica interpreter anymore?
> cube size cube temp
>
> 8 feet 94.3895 F
> 16 138.5524
> 24 193.0548
> 32 253.17
>
> Larger cubes with more people and lower surface to volume ratios are warmer.
>
> Nick
Good job! I think I'll keep this, study it, and convert it to Tcl/Tk
| |
|
| On Wed, 02 Nov 2005 08:27:59 -0800, Stuart Grey
<stuart.grey@nospam.comcast.net> wrote:
>nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu wrote:
>
>See chapter 6, Ventilation and Cooling, of your "Nuclear War Survival
>Skills" by Kearny.
Dang, I already traded my copy for some plastic seat covers. Now I'll
be SOL next time I want to build a coat out of newspaper. <no kidding,
"Very good on structures, staying warm (how many layers of newspaper
sheets to put under your bathrobe)
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...567961?v=glance>
Wayne
| |
| Stuart Grey 2005-11-02, 1:21 pm |
| wmbjk wrote:
> On Wed, 02 Nov 2005 08:27:59 -0800, Stuart Grey
> <stuart.grey@nospam.comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Dang, I already traded my copy for some plastic seat covers.
Well, it was a good trade. Just throw the seat cover over your head when
the fallout starts.
> Now I'll
> be SOL next time I want to build a coat out of newspaper. <no kidding,
> "Very good on structures, staying warm (how many layers of newspaper
> sheets to put under your bathrobe)
> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...567961?v=glance>
LOL! Yes, after the bomb falls, just go down to wallmart and buy a nice
coat - Oh wait, the wall mart was nuked.
I plan on making leather coats from all the dead people I find with
plastic seat covers over their heads.
| |
|
| On Wed, 02 Nov 2005 09:14:15 -0800, Stuart Grey
<stuart.grey@nospam.comcast.net> wrote:
>wmbjk wrote:
[color=darkred]
>
>Well, it was a good trade. Just throw the seat cover over your head when
>the fallout starts.
When will that be?
>
>
>LOL! Yes, after the bomb falls, just go down to wallmart and buy a nice
>coat - Oh wait, the wall mart was nuked.
First my closet and now Walmart? Those bastards! My closet may be
burned out but luckily my fireproof skin saved me so that I could make
a new coat from the newspaper and bathrobe I stocked in my bunker -
the one that didn't have room for coats.
>I plan on making leather coats from all the dead people I find with
>plastic seat covers over their heads.
No doubt you're doing lots of "planning". Have you considered
infiltrating the roaches' strategy meetings?
Wayne
| |
| nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu 2005-11-02, 6:21 pm |
| Stuart Grey <stuart.grey@nospam.comcast.net> wrote:
>
>See chapter 6, Ventilation and Cooling, of your "Nuclear War Survival
>Skills" by Kearny.
Gee, I don't have a copy of your "Nuclear War Survival Skills" by Kearny.
How about a little summary?
Nick
| |
| nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu 2005-11-02, 6:21 pm |
| Solar Flare <s.flare@hotmail.com> wrote:
>...what happenned to the "earth's molten core" provides infinite heat in
>these caves?...
The molten core is far away, compared to air at the surface at an average
50-60 F year round temp.
Nick
| |
| nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu 2005-11-02, 6:21 pm |
| Stuart Grey <stuart.grey@nospam.comcast.net> wrote:
>
>Basic? Who has a basica interpreter anymore?
As I recall, BASICA was the version that used real IBM PCs, with ROM assist.
I use a Dell XP DOS prompt with Microsoft's famous gwbasic, which you might
find free in many places on the net. The ASHRAE 55-2004 comfort spec has a
BASIC program :-) Third-graders can program in the BASIC lingua franca...
You might well use spherical shells to solve this problem analytically.
Nick
| |
| nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu 2005-11-02, 6:21 pm |
| Cliff <Clhuprich@aol.com> wrote:
>Strider <strider@usit.net> wrote:
>
>
>Clearly you are an idiot.
You don't sound like a simple seeker of truth :-)
Warm air risesm, so a cave with a lower opening
would likely behave this way at the upper opening.
Nick
| |
| The Watcher 2005-11-02, 6:21 pm |
| On Tue, 01 Nov 2005 20:12:34 -0800, Stuart Grey <stuart.grey@nospam.comcast.net>
wrote:
>Strider wrote:
>
>Ironically, one of the big problems with small fallout shelters dug
>underground is removing the heat. Solar Fart doesn't know the irony in
>his statement!
That's interesting. I dug down 8 feet and the inside of my shelter is a constant
58 degrees. I don't have much of a problem with heat in there. ;)
>
>There are many plans for dirt insulated solar homes out there. For a
>solar advocate, he doesn't seem to know shit about solar.
How's that solar greenhouse in the wastelands idea going? You get the bugs
figured out yet?
| |
| The Watcher 2005-11-02, 6:21 pm |
| On Wed, 02 Nov 2005 08:41:00 -0800, Stuart Grey <stuart.grey@nospam.comcast.net>
wrote:
(snip)
>
>Yes, they are. And in most falloutshelters, you pack in about 1 person
>per 10 square feet of floor. People burn about 2000 kcal (1 diet Cal =
>1000 chemistry & physics calories) and they are efficent little heaters.
I wouldn't plan for 1 person per 10 square feet of floor if I could avoid it,
but that's what they also advise adequate ventilation for(with filtered vents,
of course).
>
>It doesn't take long for the walls to absorb all the head they are going
>to absorb, the the shelter gets hot. There's been a number of Navy
>Studies on this that you.
>
>"Shelter Occupancy Studies at the university of Georgia, Final Report"
>Hammes and Thomas, OCD Contract No. OCD-PS-66-25, 1966
>
>"Enviromental Physiology of Shelter Habitation" Dasler and Minard,
>presented at the ASHRAE seminannual meeting, Chicago, Jan 1965
>
>"Studies of the Bureau of Yards and Docs Protective Shelter", NRL Report
>5882, US Naval Research Lab, Dec 1962.
>
>Dirt is a poor conductor. I'm sure that YOU can do the equations, having
>been a device physicsist for some semiconductor foundry. Assume a
>spherical shelter, it makes it simpler.
>
>Just think of a luau. They roast the pig, the ground holds the heat in.
>:-) ummm... pork Good....
>
>
>Yep. That's cuz in most places underground, what bodies are there are dead.
>
>
>You neglect heat conduction. Note that you can stand right by a camp
>fire and not burn the soles of your feet. Build your fire on a copper
>plate and try that! Your feet will fry. Dirt is a poor conductor of
>heat, even though it has a decent heat capacity. If it wasn't so, we
>would have never come to the iron age.
Uh, first you used the "dirt is a POOR conductor" to support your argument, then
you appear to be trying to argue the opposite. Being underground has one
advantage for temperature control. It's called thermal mass. Even though dirt is
a fairly poor conductor, it does work adequately as a heat sink, and can be used
for temperature control. That's the whole point behind the heat pump.
| |
| Solar Flare 2005-11-02, 8:21 pm |
| Not very well without without water to carry the heat or cold away.
To be a good thermal sink a material also has to be a good conductor.
"The Watcher" <don'tgo@there.com> wrote in message
news:43693915.44450113@news.ritternet.com...
> On Wed, 02 Nov 2005 08:41:00 -0800, Stuart Grey
<stuart.grey@nospam.comcast.net>
> wrote:
> Even though dirt is
> a fairly poor conductor, it does work adequately as a heat sink, and can be
used
> for temperature control. That's the whole point behind the heat pump.
| |
| Solar Flare 2005-11-02, 8:21 pm |
| You are addressing the Supertroll known in many groups he has destroyed know by
many names.
//colin//.Hfress//wmbjk//Taz//Tazoar//T@z//dob.a.TROLL//P.BENGI//Digi//JohnTuttl
e//.Haress//GimmieButt///Eunty JEck//Aunty Jack//Bunty Jack//Thunnus
Albacarus//Gimmie Bob//Digi//M
II//anonymous//helga//wingnut//Nemisis.0.GimmeButt//Paul
Vader//windows.embroidery.Gymmy//Shylork//Hatunen//Lectron_Nuis//BugHunter//fant
0m//KazAdz//Gabriel//a miriad of other munged versions//
Known as Wayne in energy and welding groups.
"Stuart Grey" <stuart.grey@nospam.comcast.net> wrote in message
news:sOudnefJ2pSeafXeRVn-tw@comcast.com...
> wmbjk wrote:
>
> Well, it was a good trade. Just throw the seat cover over your head when
> the fallout starts.
>
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...567961?v=glance>[color=darkred]
>
> LOL! Yes, after the bomb falls, just go down to wallmart and buy a nice
> coat - Oh wait, the wall mart was nuked.
>
> I plan on making leather coats from all the dead people I find with
> plastic seat covers over their heads.
>
| |
| Solar Flare 2005-11-02, 8:21 pm |
| We know.
<nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu> wrote in message
news:dkb4kd$b4k@acadia.ece.villanova.edu...
> Solar Flare <s.flare@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> The molten core is far away, compared to air at the surface at an average
> 50-60 F year round temp.
>
> Nick
>
| |
| Strider 2005-11-02, 8:21 pm |
| On 2 Nov 2005 14:35:38 -0500, nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu wrote:
>Cliff <Clhuprich@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
>You don't sound like a simple seeker of truth :-)
>
>Warm air risesm, so a cave with a lower opening
>would likely behave this way at the upper opening.
>
>Nick
You can find the exits of a cave in the winter (when the outside temp
is below 55) by following the drafts.
Strider
| |
|
| On Wed, 2 Nov 2005 18:27:41 -0500, "Solar Flare"
<s.flare@hotmail.com> wrote:
>You are addressing the Supertroll known in many groups he has destroyed know by
>many names.
>//colin//.Hfress//wmbjk//Taz//Tazoar//T@z//dob.a.TROLL//P.BENGI//Digi//JohnTuttl
>e//.Haress//GimmieButt///Eunty JEck//Aunty Jack//Bunty Jack//Thunnus
>Albacarus//Gimmie Bob//Digi//M
>II//anonymous//helga//wingnut//Nemisis.0.GimmeButt//Paul
>Vader//windows.embroidery.Gymmy//Shylork//Hatunen//Lectron_Nuis//BugHunter//fant
>0m//KazAdz//Gabriel//a miriad of other munged versions//
>
>Known as Wayne i | | |