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Best Source For Lead Acid Batteries
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| Too_Many_Tools 2005-11-17, 8:21 pm |
| Where do you go to buy your lead acid batteries?
TMT
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| I buy Trojan T105s from a local golf car shop.
Q
Steve Spence wrote:
> Too_Many_Tools wrote:
>
> Walmart for cheap deep cycles, new england solar for real ones.
>
>
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| Derek Broughton 2005-11-18, 10:21 am |
| Steve Spence wrote:
> Too_Many_Tools wrote:
> Walmart for cheap deep cycles, new england solar for real ones.
>
>
Rolls/Surrette.
--
derek
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| Solar Flare 2005-11-18, 10:21 pm |
| What is the price ratio for a "quality" deep cycle
battery from these namebrand cell clusters?
My easy land marker (In Canucksville) is 12 volt 100Ah
= aprox $100 for lead acid flooded cells. AGM about 3
times that price. How does a Rolls / Surrette batery
cluster compare pricewise?
"Derek Broughton" <news@pointerstop.ca> wrote in
message news:ln0153-2qc.ln1@news.pointerstop.ca...
> Steve Spence wrote:
>
for real ones.[color=darkred]
> Rolls/Surrette.
> --
> derek
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| Jack Hayes 2005-11-19, 12:21 pm |
|
"Too_Many_Tools" <too_many_tools@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1132272998.992975.63790@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Where do you go to buy your lead acid batteries?
>
> TMT
>
If you live in a mining area check for used mine loco batteries, with a lot
of luck you may find some in reasonable condition and at a very atractive
price.
Jack
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| Bob Adkins 2005-11-19, 12:21 pm |
| On Thu, 17 Nov 2005 20:38:56 -0500, Steve Spence <sspence@green-trust.org>
wrote:
>Too_Many_Tools wrote:
>Walmart for cheap deep cycles, new england solar for real ones.
"Real" ones? Are the electrons in the Wal-Mart batteries bogus? 
You know, I've been down the deluxe battery road. The economics {debatably}
doesn't seem to be there. They cost 2x or 3x more than Wal-Mart batteries,
but there's no way their performance or longevity is 2x better. When the
Wal-Mart batteries die early (admittedly they often will) you get a nice
adjustment on a new one.
--
Bob
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| Used golf cart batteries are a good deal.
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| Derek Broughton 2005-11-19, 6:21 pm |
| Steve Spence wrote:
> Derek Broughton wrote:
>
> nice batteries, but the OP wanted to know where to get them. I've
> personally delt with both http://www.newenglandsolar.com/ and
> http://www.backwoodssolar.com/ and highly recommend both.
Well, I _did_ go to Surrette. I had to actually buy them from a third
party, but I started with Surrette. Seeing as how they were shipped direct
from Surrette to me, I think it's fair to say "go to Surrette". :-)
--
derek
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| Derek Broughton 2005-11-19, 6:21 pm |
| Bob Adkins wrote:
> On Thu, 17 Nov 2005 20:38:56 -0500, Steve Spence <sspence@green-trust.org>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> "Real" ones? Are the electrons in the Wal-Mart batteries bogus?
>
> You know, I've been down the deluxe battery road. The economics
> {debatably} doesn't seem to be there. They cost 2x or 3x more than
> Wal-Mart batteries, but there's no way their performance or longevity is
> 2x better. When the Wal-Mart batteries die early (admittedly they often
> will) you get a nice adjustment on a new one.
But what do you call "early"? I'll get a "nice adjustment" on my Surrettes
if they die within 20 years.
--
derek
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| Derek Broughton 2005-11-19, 6:21 pm |
| Solar Flare wrote:
> What is the price ratio for a "quality" deep cycle
> battery from these namebrand cell clusters?
>
> My easy land marker (In Canucksville) is 12 volt 100Ah
> = aprox $100 for lead acid flooded cells.
> AGM about 3
> times that price. How does a Rolls / Surrette batery
> cluster compare pricewise?
My 6V 770Ah Surrettes cost $670 each, so close to twice your figure, but I
get shipping (at 185lbs ea, iirc, not a small cost) and a 20 year prorated
guarantee with that.
I don't think they actually make anything in the 12V 100Ah area.
--
derek
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| Solar Flare 2005-11-19, 7:21 pm |
| Well my memory trick is at 12v @ 1 Ah = $1 Canuck
retail.
Who needs a 370 lb. 12v cluster anyway?....LOL Make it
metric so it sounds lighter?
Yeah, twice sounds about right after US exchange. The
shipping must be a killer. Do they make a fuss about
the contents at all? Our 120v banks typically get
delivered by the manufacturer's trucks.
Do you really think you get 20 years out of a bank? We
have never bought Surrettes though. We do not cycle
them except in power failures off the 220kV system here
so it doesn't happen often. The other brands we buy are
always pushed to twenty years (they hope) but the techs
start complaining about them around 12 years until
things start burning up from bad DC filtration off the
chargers. The computerized relays get expensive and
the down time is very costly for larger transformers or
14kV feeders off a bus setup.
"Derek Broughton" <news@pointerstop.ca> wrote in
message news:qth453-hup.ln1@news.pointerstop.ca...
> Solar Flare wrote:
>
100Ah[color=darkred]
batery[color=darkred]
>
> My 6V 770Ah Surrettes cost $670 each, so close to
twice your figure, but I
> get shipping (at 185lbs ea, iirc, not a small cost)
and a 20 year prorated
> guarantee with that.
>
> I don't think they actually make anything in the 12V
100Ah area.
> --
> derek
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| Ron Rosenfeld 2005-11-19, 10:21 pm |
| On Sat, 19 Nov 2005 17:26:50 -0400, Derek Broughton <news@pointerstop.ca>
wrote:
> Solar Flare wrote:
>
>
>My 6V 770Ah Surrettes cost $670 each, so close to twice your figure, but I
>get shipping (at 185lbs ea, iirc, not a small cost) and a 20 year prorated
>guarantee with that.
>
>I don't think they actually make anything in the 12V 100Ah area.
Which model of the Surrette has a 20 yr warranty?
When I was looking five years ago, the 8CS25P had a 36 month replacement,
with a prorated warranty out to ten years, not including shipping. It
still does and I did not see any with longer warranties.
-- ron (off the grid in Downeast Maine)
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| Vaughn 2005-11-19, 11:21 pm |
|
"Ron Rosenfeld" <ronrosenfeld@nospam.org> wrote in message
news:5ulvn1p05lpecg3r0booqc9gfkcm25i8s8@4ax.com...
>
> Which model of the Surrette has a 20 yr warranty?
>
> When I was looking five years ago, the 8CS25P had a 36 month replacement,
> with a prorated warranty out to ten years, not including shipping. It
> still does and I did not see any with longer warranties.
Sun Electronics mentions a 15 or 20 "estimated lifetime" for their Surrette
batteries, but the warranties are for 7 or 10 years.
http://www.sunelec.com/Distributors...vbatteries.html
Vaughn
>
>
> -- ron (off the grid in Downeast Maine)
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| Ron Rosenfeld 2005-11-20, 8:21 am |
| On Sun, 20 Nov 2005 02:30:40 GMT, "Vaughn"
<vaughnsimonHATESSPAM@att.fake.net> wrote:
>
>"Ron Rosenfeld" <ronrosenfeld@nospam.org> wrote in message
>news:5ulvn1p05lpecg3r0booqc9gfkcm25i8s8@4ax.com...
>
> Sun Electronics mentions a 15 or 20 "estimated lifetime" for their Surrette
>batteries, but the warranties are for 7 or 10 years.
>http://www.sunelec.com/Distributors...vbatteries.html
Well, ten years is what I thought, not twenty. Thanks for confirming that.
I thought I had missed out on something.
-- ron (off the grid in Downeast Maine)
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| Derek Broughton 2005-11-20, 10:21 am |
| Ron Rosenfeld wrote:
> On Sun, 20 Nov 2005 02:30:40 GMT, "Vaughn"
> <vaughnsimonHATESSPAM@att.fake.net> wrote:
>
>
> Well, ten years is what I thought, not twenty. Thanks for confirming
> that. I thought I had missed out on something.
Perhaps they've downgraded the warranty since I bought mine 3 years ago, but
it says "20 year prorated"
--
derek
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| Derek Broughton 2005-11-20, 10:21 am |
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Solar Flare wrote:
> Well my memory trick is at 12v @ 1 Ah = $1 Canuck
> retail.
>
> Who needs a 370 lb. 12v cluster anyway?....LOL Make it
> metric so it sounds lighter?
370! Heavens, no. It's 1480. I have 8 of those babies - that was probably
the biggest mistake I made in building while learning - I _should_ have
bought four. As it is, I almost never use the generator, so I'm not living
close enough to the line :-(
>
> Yeah, twice sounds about right after US exchange.
What exchange. Surrette's in Nova Scotia. So am I. That actually came to
1.74 times your number.
> The
> shipping must be a killer. Do they make a fuss about
> the contents at all? Our 120v banks typically get
> delivered by the manufacturer's trucks.
So did mine.
>
> Do you really think you get 20 years out of a bank? We
I don't care. They're guaranteed that long, so if they don't last that long
I'll get a rebate.
--
derek
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| Harry Chickpea 2005-11-20, 1:21 pm |
| Derek Broughton <news@pointerstop.ca> wrote:
> Surrette's in Nova Scotia. So am I.
[color=darkred]
>I don't care. They're guaranteed that long, so if they don't last that long
>I'll get a rebate.
In today's economy, that may not be the case. In 20 years, a lot of
companies go belly-up that you would never expect. You also don't
take into account inflation over that period. Over the past 10 years
inflation has reduced the value of the USD by about 30%.
If you like the product, great, but don't bank on the rebate as
anything but a selling point and indicator of reliability.
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| Bob Adkins 2005-11-20, 5:21 pm |
| On Sat, 19 Nov 2005 17:26:50 -0400, Derek Broughton <news@pointerstop.ca>
wrote:
>My 6V 770Ah Surrettes cost $670 each, so close to twice your figure, but I
>get shipping (at 185lbs ea, iirc, not a small cost) and a 20 year prorated
>guarantee with that.
Wow! 87 cents per Ah! Probably not a world record, but I'll bet it's
close!
--
Bob
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| Bob Adkins 2005-11-20, 5:21 pm |
| On Sat, 19 Nov 2005 17:31:01 -0400, Derek Broughton <news@pointerstop.ca>
wrote:
>But what do you call "early"? I'll get a "nice adjustment" on my Surrettes
>if they die within 20 years.
Wow. I'll have to ask Wal-Mart to match that warranty.
--
Bob
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"Jack Hayes" <jhayes@personiainternet.com> wrote in message
news:11nuhshsjbh6u58@corp.supernews.com...
>
> "Too_Many_Tools" <too_many_tools@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1132272998.992975.63790@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> If you live in a mining area check for used mine loco batteries, with a
> lot
> of luck you may find some in reasonable condition and at a very atractive
> price.
>
Depending on the amp hours you need, your local hospital may throw some out.
I get quite a few from the hospital appliances I service, a lot of batteries
have to be changed on an annual basis regardless of the life left in them.
Ok most aren't huge but for things like UPSs and hand lamps they're fine.
--
Malc
"How dare you take advantage of MY blithering idiot!"
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| Ian Stirling 2005-11-20, 8:21 pm |
| In sci.chem.electrochem.battery Bob Adkins <bobad@charter.net> wrote:
> On Sat, 19 Nov 2005 17:26:50 -0400, Derek Broughton <news@pointerstop.ca>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Wow! 87 cents per Ah! Probably not a world record, but I'll bet it's
> close!
0 cents/Ah.
I pick mine up at the local dump.
(with a voltmeter and a 0.1 ohm load)
Needless to say - you can't string random batteries in series - but for
parallel banks, they work OK.
(UPS, uptime of several hours for my computer stuff)
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| Derek Broughton 2005-11-21, 9:21 am |
| Ian Stirling wrote:
> In sci.chem.electrochem.battery Bob Adkins <bobad@charter.net> wrote:
>
> 0 cents/Ah.
> I pick mine up at the local dump.
> (with a voltmeter and a 0.1 ohm load)
> Needless to say - you can't string random batteries in series - but for
> parallel banks, they work OK.
> (UPS, uptime of several hours for my computer stuff)
I rely on mine for all my electrical power. I'll take reliability and
longevity over cheap, any day.
--
derek
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| Ron Rosenfeld 2005-11-21, 10:21 am |
| On Sun, 20 Nov 2005 09:31:46 -0400, Derek Broughton <news@pointerstop.ca>
wrote:
>Ron Rosenfeld wrote:
>
>
>Perhaps they've downgraded the warranty since I bought mine 3 years ago, but
>it says "20 year prorated"
What model of battery??
Surrette's web site has had a 36 month full/10 year pro-rated warrantee on
their solar deep cycle batteries like the larger CS and KS series at least
since 2000 when I first was looking there. I check their site frequently
and have never seen a twenty year warranty on these cells.
Perhaps you have a different type???
Or perhaps your warranty is from the distributor and not from Surrette?
-- ron (off the grid in Downeast Maine)
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| Bob Adkins 2005-11-21, 10:21 am |
| On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 08:50:01 -0400, Derek Broughton <news@pointerstop.ca>
wrote:
> I'll take reliability and longevity over cheap, any day.
So will I, up to a point. Since there is no such thing as absolute
reliability or eternal longevity, it may be more practical to measure
batteries in dollars per Ah and dollars per year of longevity. Many times
there is false economy and false security in getting the "best" equipment.
But, I fully understand that for some people, having the "best" is an end in
itself, for whatever reason. I just want to make the point that economical
and practical solutions are not always inferior.
--
Bob
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| Ian Stirling 2005-11-21, 12:21 pm |
| In sci.chem.electrochem.battery Derek Broughton <news@pointerstop.ca> wrote:
> Ian Stirling wrote:
>
>
> I rely on mine for all my electrical power. I'll take reliability and
> longevity over cheap, any day.
Well, there is a 100% no-quibble new-as-old warranty too
Relying on this for all power - I'd need to do a hell of a lot more testing
and monitoring.
But, for my application - riding out short grid interruptions and brownouts
with the capacity to supply a couple of days of 50W, it works just fine.
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| Derek Broughton 2005-11-21, 12:21 pm |
| Bob Adkins wrote:
> On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 08:50:01 -0400, Derek Broughton <news@pointerstop.ca>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> So will I, up to a point. Since there is no such thing as absolute
> reliability or eternal longevity, it may be more practical to measure
> batteries in dollars per Ah and dollars per year of longevity. Many times
> there is false economy and false security in getting the "best" equipment.
>
> But, I fully understand that for some people, having the "best" is an end
> in
> itself, for whatever reason. I just want to make the point that
> economical and practical solutions are not always inferior.
I agree. I was just pointing out that you get exactly what you pay for with
"free" batteries - I wouldn't dream of trying to run my house on free
batteries I got from anywhere. I have my doubts about $1/Ah batteries, but
I imagine it's possible to get better value for money than I got. One
specific reason I bought Surrette was because I wanted to buy local -
they're built in my province - so there's more than economics involved.
I don't think the deal was that bad, though. $1/Ah to you, is $1.18/Ah to
me. I have no idea what shipping would cost, but almost 1500lbs of
hazardous cargo can't be cheap. CDN$1.74/Ah, shipping included, sounds
competitive.
--
derek
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Derek Broughton wrote:
> One
> specific reason I bought Surrette was because I wanted to buy local -
> they're built in my province - so there's more than economics involved.
Hey, I buy them too, and I'm three provinces away (they go to Ontario
before they come to Quebec). They're good batteries.
> I don't think the deal was that bad, though. $1/Ah to you, is $1.18/Ah to
> me. I have no idea what shipping would cost, but almost 1500lbs of
> hazardous cargo can't be cheap.
Actually, it ain't that bad. Most of the time, mine come drop-shipped
right from Surette. Freight for that seems to be about 150-200$ for a
full skid (they'll put 20 on a skid, but I prefer no more than 16).
I've probably gone through ten or fifteen skids of them this year,
almost all S-530s at what, 150 pounds each.
DJ
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| Bob Adkins 2005-11-22, 11:21 am |
| On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 11:35:47 -0400, Derek Broughton <news@pointerstop.ca>
wrote:
>I agree. I was just pointing out that you get exactly what you pay for with
>"free" batteries - I wouldn't dream of trying to run my house on free
>batteries I got from anywhere.
There you go again.
There isn't a darn thing wrong with free. I wish I could get free stuff like
some of my friends. I just don't have the luck!
A friend got a big double hernia-sized "D" battery for free. It looked
fairly new, but according to the owner, it wouldn't charge up beyond 12v.
Well, my friend topped off the cells, hit it with a honking big battery
charger, and it has been perfect for the last 3 years. What's wrong with
that?
My point is that many many people throw perfectly good stuff away because
they erroneously believe it's bad... batteries included!
--
Bob
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| Derek Broughton 2005-11-22, 12:21 pm |
| Bob Adkins wrote:
> On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 11:35:47 -0400, Derek Broughton <news@pointerstop.ca>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> There you go again.
>
> There isn't a darn thing wrong with free. I wish I could get free stuff
> like some of my friends. I just don't have the luck!
Of course there is - free batteries are free for a reason. They've been
used past _somebody's_ consideration of a useful lifetime.
>
> My point is that many many people throw perfectly good stuff away because
> they erroneously believe it's bad... batteries included!
And it's a valid point, but my home system relies on two parallel banks of
12 cells. Getting those from a free source, matching them to get decent
performance, and getting many years of trouble free work out of them is too
daunting a task for me. Some people _would_ dream of running their homes
off such batteries. I've got better things to do with my time.
--
derek
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| Solar Flare 2005-11-22, 5:21 pm |
| Again it all depends on your application. Free is good
if you can get it and it suits your needs. If you have
to depend on them you need a neck behind the product to
wring if necessary.
I don't use my batteries, ever, except to smooth out my
MPPT's output and because my unit requires them. Once I
move to an area that has blackouts for more than 2
minutes at a time it may be a differennt story and then
I will look for more dependabilty like Derek.
"Derek Broughton" <news@pointerstop.ca> wrote in
message news:ubrb53-c29.ln1@news.pointerstop.ca...
> Bob Adkins wrote:
>
<news@pointerstop.ca>[color=darkred]
exactly what you pay for[color=darkred]
to run my house on free[color=darkred]
could get free stuff[color=darkred]
luck![color=darkred]
>
> Of course there is - free batteries are free for a
reason. They've been
> used past _somebody's_ consideration of a useful
lifetime.
good stuff away because[color=darkred]
included![color=darkred]
>
> And it's a valid point, but my home system relies on
two parallel banks of
> 12 cells. Getting those from a free source, matching
them to get decent
> performance, and getting many years of trouble free
work out of them is too
> daunting a task for me. Some people _would_ dream of
running their homes
> off such batteries. I've got better things to do
with my time.
> --
> derek
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| Solar Flare 2005-11-22, 5:21 pm |
| Can you afford their disposal fee?
LOL
"Bob Adkins" <bobad@charter.net> wrote in message
news:8qm1o11j8jg154djliunjt3batie0li93b@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 19 Nov 2005 17:31:01 -0400, Derek Broughton
<news@pointerstop.ca>
> wrote:
>
>
adjustment" on my Surrettes[color=darkred]
>
> Wow. I'll have to ask Wal-Mart to match that
warranty.
> --
> Bob
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