|
Home > Archive > Alternative Power sources > December 2005 > 230v/50hz off grid?
You are viewing an archived Text-only version of the thread.
To view this thread in it's original format and/or if you want to reply to
this thread please [click here]
| Author |
230v/50hz off grid?
|
|
| mrgrahamm@yahoo.com 2005-11-21, 10:21 pm |
| Hi, I would like to know if I could use 230v/50hz ac if I'm off grid
here in the U.S.? If I can what would be the benefits of that versus
120v/60hz ac? Has anyone done this before?
| |
|
|
mrgrah...@yahoo.com wrote:
> Hi, I would like to know if I could use 230v/50hz ac if I'm off grid
> here in the U.S.? If I can what would be the benefits of that versus
> 120v/60hz ac? Has anyone done this before?
Yes, if you're *off grid*, you could, but... I'd have to say, that
unless you got a REAL good deal on that inverter, it won't be worth it.
Remember, EVERY appliance in your home will have to be European or have
a dedicated converter like those little ones they sell at WalMart for
when you want to take your electric shaver to France ;-).
Seriously though, you can, but it will be a CONSTANT pain in the XXX
forever after... in my opinion, anyway ;-).
DJ
| |
| mrgrahamm@yahoo.com 2005-11-21, 11:21 pm |
| I thought European appliances were more efficient, than
American ones. This is one reason why I wanted 230v/50hz.
| |
|
|
mrgrahamm@yahoo.com wrote:
> I thought European appliances were more efficient, than
> American ones. This is one reason why I wanted 230v/50hz.
It is very true that European appliances have been on the energy
conservation trail alot longer than ours over here. Looking at the
Energy Star ratings on many appliances in just over the past five
years, there have been some amazing advances in North American
appliances.
But thing is, those European appliances are in Europe. If you bring
them over here, you also are also an ocean away from repair and
warranty issues. I wouldn't say it was worth it.
I was thinking you accidentally bought one of those cut-rate European
inverters off of e-Bay and were trying to make the best of it ;-).
DJ
| |
| m Ransley 2005-11-22, 8:21 am |
| "Energy star " rated apliances are as efficient as any european unit,
shop by the yellow KWH use tag. Many US products will not take 50 hz,
You may find even your furnace, microwave, dishwasher, etc wont run,
stay with 60hz.
| |
| Steve Spence 2005-11-22, 9:21 am |
| mrgrahamm@yahoo.com wrote:
> Hi, I would like to know if I could use 230v/50hz ac if I'm off grid
> here in the U.S.? If I can what would be the benefits of that versus
> 120v/60hz ac? Has anyone done this before?
>
What appliances can you get that use that type of power? There are no
advantages to 50hz over 60hz, especially when 60hz devices are so
available, and 50hz are not. 220vac requires smaller wires than 120vac,
but we live off grid, and ahve no 220vac devices. all 120vac and 12vdc.
There are 50hz inverters, but what's the point, unless you found a bunch
of 50hz equipment.
--
Steve Spence
Dir., Green Trust, http://www.green-trust.org
Contributing Editor, http://www.off-grid.net
http://www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html
| |
| Steve Spence 2005-11-22, 9:21 am |
| mrgrahamm@yahoo.com wrote:
> I thought European appliances were more efficient, than
> American ones. This is one reason why I wanted 230v/50hz.
>
You can get efficient appliances in the US that don't require weird power.
We got our front loader washer from sears. What other appliances are you
referring to? there aren't many used in an off-grid home.
--
Steve Spence
Dir., Green Trust, http://www.green-trust.org
Contributing Editor, http://www.off-grid.net
http://www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html
| |
| Steve Spence 2005-11-22, 9:21 am |
| m Ransley wrote:
> "Energy star " rated apliances are as efficient as any european unit,
> shop by the yellow KWH use tag. Many US products will not take 50 hz,
> You may find even your furnace, microwave, dishwasher, etc wont run,
> stay with 60hz.
>
typically you don't find electric dishwashers in off-grid homes. I
happen to have two manual ones, one is 14 and the other is 17.
--
Steve Spence
Dir., Green Trust, http://www.green-trust.org
Contributing Editor, http://www.off-grid.net
http://www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html
| |
|
|
Steve Spence wrote:
> m Ransley wrote:
>
> typically you don't find electric dishwashers in off-grid homes. I
> happen to have two manual ones, one is 14 and the other is 17.
I've had TWO clients recently for whom dishwashers were
non-negotiable... people going off grid now, or starting off grid, want
all the conveniences these days. It does tend to make for some monster
systems, or massive battery banks though. I do tell them what the
dishwashers "cost", but they want them anyway.
I do heavily encourage the disabling of the heating function, though.
DJ
| |
| Derek Broughton 2005-11-22, 10:21 am |
| m Ransley wrote:
> "Energy star " rated apliances are as efficient as any european unit,
> shop by the yellow KWH use tag. Many US products will not take 50 hz,
> You may find even your furnace, microwave, dishwasher, etc wont run,
> stay with 60hz.
I'd say Energy Star rated appliances _can_ be as efficient as any European
unit. However, some of the things that are Energy Star rated either make no
logical sense to me (_why_ can "Instant On" TVs get an ES rating? Why can
top-loading washers get a rating?) or they just barely meet the criteria
set by the ES program. I'd say only buy Energy Star, but even then, shop
around for the best deal for you.
We just bought a Frigidaire washer after much shopping around (despite
having been told that it was the best deal we could find by another local
off-gridder!). We could have bought an even more efficient LG for 3 times
the price, but the Frigidaire meets our needs, will run on the power we
have available, rates on the low end of the ES power-usage scale, and came
from Sears - making service & warranty considerations a no-brainer.
--
derek
| |
| Nick Pine 2005-11-22, 11:21 am |
| m Ransley <ransley@webtv.net> again reveals his ignorance:
> "Energy star " rated apliances are as efficient as any european unit,
I don't think so. Take a look at some European clothes dryers. Some take
several hours to dry a load, using very little electrical energy, little
more than an indoor clothesline.
Some washing machines also take longer, eg an hour. They spend most of
their time soaking, moving only a few seconds every few minutes, while
keeping their water warm.
Nick
| |
| wmbjk 2005-11-22, 11:21 am |
| On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 08:14:00 -0500, Steve Spence
<sspence@green-trust.org> wrote:
>typically you don't find electric dishwashers in off-grid homes.
That's changing. More people are building quite conventional homes
off-grid. Compared to the cost of a new home, adding sufficient
generating capacity for most appliances shouldn't be a deal breaker.
Systems that are properly designed will necessarily have a surplus of
energy year round anyway. As systems get larger that surplus becomes
too valuable to waste. It's relatively easy to harvest it with
discretionary loads like dishwashers and clothes washers, thereby
increasing system efficiency. The number of people (in the US at
least) willing to do without what many consider to be essential
comforts is limited. So promoting the use of conventional appliances
off-grid will increase the number of home power systems.
> I happen to have two manual ones, one is 14 and the other is 17.
I'd like to see the payback analysis on those. I bet our Asko is more
efficient. :-)
Wayne
| |
| Derek Broughton 2005-11-22, 11:21 am |
| DJ wrote:
>
> Steve Spence wrote:
>
> I've had TWO clients recently for whom dishwashers were
> non-negotiable... people going off grid now, or starting off grid, want
> all the conveniences these days. It does tend to make for some monster
> systems, or massive battery banks though. I do tell them what the
> dishwashers "cost", but they want them anyway.
>
> I do heavily encourage the disabling of the heating function, though.
An off-grid friend has one. It was non-negotiable for his wife, so he
bought the most efficient household dishwasher he could find (which they
now never use) but discovered after the fact that he should have bought a
restaurant machine. They draw quite a bit more power, but they do it for a
much shorter time. The manufacturers he talked to said they just can't
sell something like that to homeowners at any price - people expect
dishwashers to run for half an hour or more, and don't believe the dishes
can be clean in just a few minutes.
--
derek
| |
| Derek Broughton 2005-11-22, 11:21 am |
| Steve Spence wrote:
> m Ransley wrote:
>
> typically you don't find electric dishwashers in off-grid homes. I
> happen to have two manual ones, one is 14 and the other is 17.
LOL. Mine is me. :-(
My wife actually wanted to know how much more capacity we'd need for a
dishwasher, and I insisted on doing the dishes myself. I've got three dogs
for the enzyme pre-rinse :-)
--
derek
| |
|
|
Derek Broughton wrote:
> My wife actually wanted to know how much more capacity we'd need for a
> dishwasher, and I insisted on doing the dishes myself. I've got three dogs
> for the enzyme pre-rinse :-)
You do that, too, eh? ;-)
Actually, though, it's pretty easy, system wise. Generally, it just
needs a larger battery bank, so you can have the high load for a
reasonably long duration. And then, of course, it needs to be sized
into your generation capability, or you suck it up and run the
generator for a bit to make up for it. For sporatic use (big family
dinners, for instance), I generally go over it with the client, but
usually just allowing for generator run time the next day is the most
economical way to deal with adding items of that nature.
DJ
| |
| wmbjk 2005-11-22, 12:21 pm |
| On 22 Nov 2005 08:50:50 -0500, nick@acadia.ece.villanova.edu (Nick
Pine) wrote:
>m Ransley <ransley@webtv.net> again reveals his ignorance:
>
>
>I don't think so. Take a look at some European clothes dryers. Some take
>several hours to dry a load, using very little electrical energy, little
>more than an indoor clothesline.
>
>Some washing machines also take longer, eg an hour. They spend most of
>their time soaking, moving only a few seconds every few minutes, while
>keeping their water warm.
>
>Nick
They're readily available in the US and run on standard 110/60. We
bought one nine years ago at a regular appliance store. Now you can
buy them at most RV suppliers as well. Some examples
http://www.nextag.com/dryer-ventless-washer/search-html
Wayne
| |
| mrgrahamm@yahoo.com 2005-11-22, 3:21 pm |
| Actually I think quite a few motors are of the 50/60hz variety, I've
tested two fans by running them with 120v/50hz (I used an inverter) and
the motors had more torque. In, other words the fans simply ran faster
at 50hz, but still with 120v. Maybe they'll run fine off of 230v/50hz
as well.
| |
| nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu 2005-11-22, 4:21 pm |
| wmbjk <wmbjkREMOVE@citlink.net> wrote:
>
>They're readily available in the US and run on standard 110/60. We
>bought one nine years ago at a regular appliance store. Now you can
>buy them at most RV suppliers as well. Some examples
http://www.nextag.com/dryer-ventless-washer/search-html
I don't see any evidence there that these washers and dryers use less energy.
"Ventless" doesn't necessarily have much to do with energy consumption.
Nick
| |
|
| On 22 Nov 2005 14:35:14 -0500, nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu wrote:
>wmbjk <wmbjkREMOVE@citlink.net> wrote:
>
>http://www.nextag.com/dryer-ventless-washer/search-html
>
>I don't see any evidence there that these washers and dryers use less energy.
>"Ventless" doesn't necessarily have much to do with energy consumption.
>
>Nick
Judging by the minimal wash activity and long cycle times you
mentioned, I thought you were referring to front loaders with high
spin speeds and condensate drying systems. Those are used in the
common European machines found in my search link, and generally
described as "ventless".
http://resourcecenter.pnl.gov/cocoo...ter/article/132
http://www.creativelaundry.com/product_line/LG.cfm Note the cold water
use for drying in the descriptions. If you had some other technology
in mind, how about posting some links.
Wayne
| |
| nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu 2005-11-22, 5:21 pm |
| wmbjk <wmbjkREMOVE@citlink.net> wrote:
I think the long drying times are a clue to low electrical energy usage.
An indoor clothesline is the extreme, with zero electrical energy and
a 3-day drying time.
[color=darkred]
US machines tend to grind away all the time...
[color=darkred]
>Judging by the minimal wash activity and long cycle times you
>mentioned, I thought you were referring to front loaders with high
>spin speeds and condensate drying systems.
I was thinking of a Philips horizontal axis machine (a top loader with a
drum with a loading door) that I used in France. HA washers use less water
and soap and energy, and the long soak/minimal grind times further reduce
motor energy use.
>Those are used in the common European machines found in my search link,
>and generally described as "ventless".
http://resourcecenter.pnl.gov/cocoo...ter/article/132
http://www.creativelaundry.com/product_line/LG.cfm Note the cold water
>use for drying in the descriptions.
Dumping heat into cold water vs room air does not necessarily save
electrical energy. A dehumidifier would. As would an indoor clothesline.
>If you had some other technology in mind, how about posting some links.
I'm not sure how European dryers work, but I suspect the longer the drying
time, the more the energy comes from warm house air and the less it comes
from electric heat inside the dryer (with the indoor clothesline as the
extreme example.) It shouldn't be hard to build an 8-hour dryer into
a closet with a 1500 W thermostat heater and a humidistat. How much
electrical energy would that save, compared to a conventional dryer?
This could also save labor, with only one final clothes hanging.
Nick
| |
| m Ransley 2005-11-22, 5:21 pm |
| On Energy Star ratings for tvs, my old 32 sony uses 11 watts on standby
and 225 running. my new 32 toshiba uses 2 watts on standby and 95
running.
| |
| Dave Hinz 2005-11-22, 5:21 pm |
| On 22 Nov 2005 15:50:42 -0500, nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu <nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu> wrote:
> wmbjk <wmbjkREMOVE@citlink.net> wrote:
>
>
> I think the long drying times are a clue to low electrical energy usage.
> An indoor clothesline is the extreme, with zero electrical energy and
> a 3-day drying time.
....and stiff clothes. BTDT.
| |
| Solar Flare 2005-11-22, 6:21 pm |
| Saves on spray starch too.
"Dave Hinz" <DaveHinz@spamcop.net> wrote in message
news:3uhg28F117k3rU1@individual.net...
> On 22 Nov 2005 15:50:42 -0500,
nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu
<nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu> wrote:
>
> ...and stiff clothes. BTDT.
>
| |
| mrgrahamm@yahoo.com 2005-11-22, 6:21 pm |
| I think I might use the following appliances at 230v/50hz: gas dryer,
gas stove/oven maybe a gas furnace,refrigerator/freezer, microwave, and
a ceiling fan.
| |
| Dave Hinz 2005-11-22, 6:21 pm |
| On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 16:30:18 -0500, Solar Flare <s.flare@hotmail.invalid> wrote:
> Saves on spray starch too.
Yabut, then you lose that savings having to buy talcum powder...
| |
| mrgrahamm@yahoo.com 2005-11-22, 6:21 pm |
| I remember reading about a guy that bought a 230v/50hz inverter from
ebay, I wonder how that worked out for him?
I think he did that by mistake.
| |
|
| On 22 Nov 2005 15:50:42 -0500, nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu wrote:
>wmbjk <wmbjkREMOVE@citlink.net> wrote:
>
>
>I think the long drying times are a clue to low electrical energy usage.
>An indoor clothesline is the extreme, with zero electrical energy and
>a 3-day drying time.
The ubiquitous European machines like ours take about an hour to fully
dry shirts, longer for towels etc. Clothes can be removed much sooner
if some dampness is acceptable. My wife tells me that anything that's
destined for a hanger is "dry enough" after about a half hour.
>
>US machines tend to grind away all the time...
About an hour for ours (depends on settings). The drum rotates slowly
in alternate directions perhaps a third of the time except during
fill/drain periods.
>
>I was thinking of a Philips horizontal axis machine (a top loader with a
>drum with a loading door) that I used in France. HA washers use less water
>and soap and energy, and the long soak/minimal grind times further reduce
>motor energy use.
Sounds like the typical European machine except that most seem to be
front loaders. Check kitchen scenes in episodes of AbFab and
Shameless. (highly recommended)
http://www.bellaonline.com/articles/art27804.asp
>http://resourcecenter.pnl.gov/cocoo...ter/article/132
>http://www.creativelaundry.com/product_line/LG.cfm Note the cold water
>
>Dumping heat into cold water vs room air does not necessarily save
>electrical energy. A dehumidifier would. As would an indoor clothesline.
>
>I'm not sure how European dryers work, but I suspect the longer the drying
>time, the more the energy comes from warm house air and the less it comes
>from electric heat inside the dryer (with the indoor clothesline as the
>extreme example.) It shouldn't be hard to build an 8-hour dryer into
>a closet with a 1500 W thermostat heater and a humidistat. How much
>electrical energy would that save, compared to a conventional dryer?
>This could also save labor, with only one final clothes hanging.
Even after being spun at very high speeds, clothes are generally too
wet to hang up practically. They could stay in the washer drum for a
while longer, using relatively low energy use to tumble slowly, with a
tiny fan to ventilate the drum, and the best balance of low heat
versus tumbling time. That might take a half hour before they're ready
for the closet... :-)
Wayne
| |
| Steve Spence 2005-11-22, 10:21 pm |
| wmbjk wrote:
> On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 08:14:00 -0500, Steve Spence
> <sspence@green-trust.org> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> That's changing. More people are building quite conventional homes
> off-grid. Compared to the cost of a new home, adding sufficient
> generating capacity for most appliances shouldn't be a deal breaker.
> Systems that are properly designed will necessarily have a surplus of
> energy year round anyway. As systems get larger that surplus becomes
> too valuable to waste. It's relatively easy to harvest it with
> discretionary loads like dishwashers and clothes washers, thereby
> increasing system efficiency. The number of people (in the US at
> least) willing to do without what many consider to be essential
> comforts is limited. So promoting the use of conventional appliances
> off-grid will increase the number of home power systems.
>
>
>
>
> I'd like to see the payback analysis on those. I bet our Asko is more
> efficient. :-)
>
> Wayne
I'd like to see your asko provide you with grandchildren. I wonder if
Don has an article on the exergy of children and how much gasoline it
takes to raise one.
--
Steve Spence
Dir., Green Trust, http://www.green-trust.org
Contributing Editor, http://www.off-grid.net
http://www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html
| |
|
|
| Steve Spence 2005-11-22, 10:21 pm |
| mrgrahamm@yahoo.com wrote:
> I think I might use the following appliances at 230v/50hz: gas dryer,
> gas stove/oven maybe a gas furnace,refrigerator/freezer, microwave, and
> a ceiling fan.
>
What are you trying to gain? Smaller wires? You aren't saving anything.
--
Steve Spence
Dir., Green Trust, http://www.green-trust.org
Contributing Editor, http://www.off-grid.net
http://www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html
| |
| nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu 2005-11-22, 10:21 pm |
| Dave Hinz <DaveHinz@spamcop.net> wrote:
>
>...and stiff clothes. BTDT.
Poor baby.
Nick
| |
| mrgrahamm@yahoo.com 2005-11-22, 11:21 pm |
| I think I'll be gaining efficiency, in motors the torque increases and
as the voltage goes up the startup current will be reduced also.
Perhaps I could use smaller breakers as well. I wouldn't gain much
though but every little bit helps.
| |
| Solar Flare 2005-11-22, 11:21 pm |
| Yeah, It takes about 4500Watts of heat plus the motor
to dry well electrically. 12.8 Amps at 120Vac and the
"no vent required" should be a first hint of
performance.
I have an electric Maytag with about 4500 watt element.
Their claim to fame is lower drying heat for less
clothes wear and tear. It may do as stated but it is
slow as molasses. Large loads of clothes may take 3-5
hours per load. I have been thinking of getting ahigher
temp thermostat to up the heat a bit and speed things
up.
"Steve Spence" <sspence@green-trust.org> wrote in
message news:4383ca8c$1_2@newsfeed.slurp.net...
> wmbjk wrote:
nick@acadia.ece.villanova.edu (Nick[color=darkred]
ignorance:[color=darkred]
any european unit,[color=darkred]
clothes dryers. Some take[color=darkred]
electrical energy, little[color=darkred]
They spend most of[color=darkred]
few minutes, while[color=darkred]
standard 110/60. We[color=darkred]
store. Now you can[color=darkred]
examples[color=darkred]
http://www.nextag.com/dryer-ventless-washer/search-html[color=darkred]
>
> I have a thor front loading combo washer dryer.
washes well, doesn't dry
> worth a hoot. Condensing non vented 120vac/15amp
connection.
>
>
http://www.thorappliances.com/thorM...tline/index.php
>
>
> --
> Steve Spence
> Dir., Green Trust, http://www.green-trust.org
> Contributing Editor, http://www.off-grid.net
> http://www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html
| |
| Solar Flare 2005-11-22, 11:21 pm |
| Not true about the efficiency. Now larger size, 3 (or
multi) phase motors are much more efficient.
<mrgrahamm@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1132712885.387625.215150@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> I think I'll be gaining efficiency, in motors the
torque increases and
> as the voltage goes up the startup current will be
reduced also.
> Perhaps I could use smaller breakers as well. I
wouldn't gain much
> though but every little bit helps.
>
| |
| Antipodean Bucket Farmer 2005-11-22, 11:21 pm |
| In article
<1132627348.645691.188520@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>
, mrgrahamm@yahoo.com says...
> I thought European appliances were more efficient, than
> American ones. This is one reason why I wanted 230v/50hz.
Even if European appliances are more efficient, you
would have to pay to have them shipped to the US.
Also, there would be a hassle and extra expense for any
repairs.
I expect that you would even have to import your light
bulbs/tubes, unless you had some separate system for
those.
Also, the appropriate inverter would have to be shipped
in, with its own extra cost, plus the hassle and
expense for any repairs.
If you want a television to receive American
broadcasts, or play American videos, you would need
American equipment, plus a 110v/60hz inverter just for
that.
Personally, I would just go with the standard inverter
type and appliances for your location.
My off-grid aspiration would actually minimise inverter
use. 12-volt lights. DC to computers. Hand-operated
clothes washing. Solar and gas heating/water/cooking.
--
Get Credit Where Credit Is Due
http://www.cardreport.com/
Credit Tools, Reference, and Forum
| |
| Antipodean Bucket Farmer 2005-11-22, 11:21 pm |
| In article <3uhg28F117k3rU1@individual.net>,
DaveHinz@spamcop.net says...
> On 22 Nov 2005 15:50:42 -0500, nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu <nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu> wrote:
>
> ...and stiff clothes. BTDT.
I have used an indoor clothes drying rack for years,
with zero objections.
--
Get Credit Where Credit Is Due
http://www.cardreport.com/
Credit Tools, Reference, and Forum
| |
| mrgrahamm@yahoo.com 2005-11-22, 11:21 pm |
| I thought that 3 phase motors use more power or more watts than 1 phase
motors, I'll be using 1 phase only.
| |
| mrgrahamm@yahoo.com 2005-11-22, 11:21 pm |
| I might buy a multisytem tv it run on 230v and it'll recieve american
channels.
| |
| Dale Farmer 2005-11-23, 12:21 am |
|
Derek Broughton wrote:
> DJ wrote:
>
>
> An off-grid friend has one. It was non-negotiable for his wife, so he
> bought the most efficient household dishwasher he could find (which they
> now never use) but discovered after the fact that he should have bought a
> restaurant machine. They draw quite a bit more power, but they do it for a
> much shorter time. The manufacturers he talked to said they just can't
> sell something like that to homeowners at any price - people expect
> dishwashers to run for half an hour or more, and don't believe the dishes
> can be clean in just a few minutes.
> --
> derek
Big issue with commercial type dishwashers is that they want very
hot water at a good flow rate at pressure. So you have to run your
dishwasher during the time you have both readily available. Not
that I've ever considered getting one for home.
I wonder if someone makes a relatively small one that is sized
for a single person or small apartment. Big enough for basically
one place setting at a time, with a cycle time of a minute or three.
Sort of like a bar glass washer on steroids. Would make
dishwashing for me much less of a chore. Even in an on-grid
home.
--Dale
| |
| mrgrahamm@yahoo.com 2005-11-23, 12:21 am |
| I was thinking of using the european appliances because of their
efficiency, but might have to use 230v/50hz to power them though. If
these were sold in U.S., then they would need 120v/60hz. But based on
experience most motors run better on 50hz, but not all.
| |
| mrgrahamm@yahoo.com 2005-11-23, 12:21 am |
| That is running 120v/60hz motors on 120v/50hz.
| |
| mrgrahamm@yahoo.com 2005-11-23, 12:21 am |
| I know this is a little off topic, but have any of you touched a 120v
light bulb and a 230v light bulb? Is the 230v bulb much hotter?
| |
| nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu 2005-11-23, 7:21 am |
| Solar Flare <s.flare@hotmail.invalid> wrote:
>... larger size, 3 (or multi) phase motors are much more efficient.
That works for small values of "much."
Nick
| |
| Steve Spence 2005-11-23, 11:21 am |
| mrgrahamm@yahoo.com wrote:
> I think I'll be gaining efficiency, in motors the torque increases and
> as the voltage goes up the startup current will be reduced also.
> Perhaps I could use smaller breakers as well. I wouldn't gain much
> though but every little bit helps.
>
I don't believe you'll see the gain you think you will, and recommend
against this scenario.
--
Steve Spence
Dir., Green Trust, http://www.green-trust.org
Contributing Editor, http://www.off-grid.net
http://www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html
| |
|
|
| Steve Spence 2005-11-23, 11:21 am |
| mrgrahamm@yahoo.com wrote:
> I know this is a little off topic, but have any of you touched a 120v
> light bulb and a 230v light bulb? Is the 230v bulb much hotter?
>
The heat is dependent on watts, not volts. Please don't play with this
stuff at yuor current knoweledge level.
--
Steve Spence
Dir., Green Trust, http://www.green-trust.org
Contributing Editor, http://www.off-grid.net
http://www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html
| |
| Derek Broughton 2005-11-23, 11:21 am |
| m Ransley wrote:
> On Energy Star ratings for tvs, my old 32 sony uses 11 watts on standby
> and 225 running. my new 32 toshiba uses 2 watts on standby and 95
> running.
That's my gripe - I don't accept that it's reasonable that a TV use _any_
power when turned off, and still qualify for an Energy Star rating. If you
can't get up enough energy of your own to walk across the room to turn it
on, you shouldn't be able to boast about your energy conservation measures.
Same with computer monitors - I'd happily have one that would turn itself
completely off after 'x' minutes of inactivity and would then need to be
physically switched back on, instead of just by moving the mouse (in fact,
my laptop is configured that way - after 15 minutes it hibernates, and I
have to power it back up).
--
derek
| |
| Derek Broughton 2005-11-23, 11:21 am |
| Dale Farmer wrote:
> Derek Broughton wrote:
>
> Big issue with commercial type dishwashers is that they want very
> hot water at a good flow rate at pressure.
Good point - coming up with the hot water is not usually a problem.
Especially in his case - he has a good solar HW system. But I wonder what
is considered an adequate pressure? I've never got better than 40psi out
of a well system.
> I wonder if someone makes a relatively small one that is sized
> for a single person or small apartment. Big enough for basically
> one place setting at a time, with a cycle time of a minute or three.
> Sort of like a bar glass washer on steroids. Would make
> dishwashing for me much less of a chore. Even in an on-grid
> home.
Maybe someone does, but the manufacturers he talked to just didn't see
short-cycle home DWs as a saleable commodity.
--
derek
| |
| wmbjk 2005-11-23, 12:21 pm |
| On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 20:48:13 -0500, Steve Spence
<sspence@green-trust.org> wrote:
>wmbjk wrote:
[color=darkred]
>
>I'd like to see your asko provide you with grandchildren.
If it ever starts doing that I'll be switching to paper plates. :-)
> I wonder if
>Don has an article on the exergy of children and how much gasoline it
>takes to raise one.
....or if he'll claim that thousands of them have been abandoned and
are lying about in the desert. :-)
Wayne
| |
| wmbjk 2005-11-23, 12:21 pm |
| On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 21:49:15 -0500, " Solar Flare"
<s.flare@hotmail.invalid> wrote:
>Yeah, It takes about 4500Watts of heat plus the motor
>to dry well electrically.
Strange, I could have sworn that somebody just wrote about a machine
equipped with a 4500 Watt heating element taking 5 hours....
> 12.8 Amps at 120Vac and the
>"no vent required" should be a first hint of
>performance.
Did you even bother to read the part about condensate drying Gymmy
Bob?
>I have an electric Maytag with about 4500 watt element.
>Their claim to fame is lower drying heat for less
>clothes wear and tear. It may do as stated but it is
>slow as molasses. Large loads of clothes may take 3-5
>hours per load.
Is this like your "many gallons" of water in half-inch pipe story, or
your "many cubic meters of concrete" to hold up a post story?
Regardless, somebody just reported that "It takes about 4500Watts of
heat to dry well electrically". Therefore your machine must be "drying
well electrically".
> I have been thinking of getting ahigher
>temp thermostat to up the heat a bit and speed things
>up.
Excellent idea. I'm sure you could teach those appliance designers a
thing or two. "Many" things couldn't possibly go wrong.
Wayne
| |
| wmbjk 2005-11-23, 12:21 pm |
| On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 20:52:11 -0500, Steve Spence
<sspence@green-trust.org> wrote:
>I have a thor front loading combo washer dryer. washes well, doesn't dry
>worth a hoot. Condensing non vented 120vac/15amp connection.
>
>http://www.thorappliances.com/thorM...tline/index.php
Are you sure it's working properly? Our (similar) machine definitely
fully dries, although it is slow by design. Perhaps we can add 4500
Watt elements once Gymmy Bob reports on the fir...er, results of his
experiments. ;-)
Wayne
| |
| John Robert McFerren 2005-11-23, 1:21 pm |
| My Cheapo Chineese TV has a switch on the front to switch ALL of the power
off. If I were to use that I would loose the clock. In that position the
TV must be turned on in two steps. Press in on the power switch THEN press
the channel up or down button, Power button on the remote or a number on
the remote (for channels 1-9 instant on). I just leave it in standby (I'm
on grid), the same way with my Mom's TV My Home theater system (and the one
in the living room).
| |
| John Robert McFerren 2005-11-23, 1:21 pm |
| You are only looking for trouble here. The problems (and I list a small
amount) are:
-Stepping up to 240 volts is less effiecient than stepping up to 120 volts.
-European Appliance seem to be LESS efficent as noted in other posts
-Multisystem TVs are a pain in the butt
-When stepping DOWN to operating voltages in electronics more energy is
lost than from stepping down from 120 Volts or from converting from the DC
voltage your system produces.
-Repairs are going to be expensive
-People are going to wonder why you have european outlets everywhere.
mrgrahamm@yahoo.com wrote in news:1132623393.886537.204780
@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
> Hi, I would like to know if I could use 230v/50hz ac if I'm off grid
> here in the U.S.? If I can what would be the benefits of that versus
> 120v/60hz ac? Has anyone done this before?
>
| |
| Dale Farmer 2005-11-23, 2:21 pm |
|
Derek Broughton wrote:
> Dale Farmer wrote:
>
>
> Good point - coming up with the hot water is not usually a problem.
> Especially in his case - he has a good solar HW system. But I wonder what
> is considered an adequate pressure? I've never got better than 40psi out
> of a well system.
>
Typical water pressures in commercial is also 40psi, but they are
connected with much larger diameter piping to the city, so you get
that 40psi pressure at pretty much any flow rate. The pumps I've
had experience with(not many) have not maintained that full pressure
at a high flow rate. Some commercial washers incorporate a booster
pump to increase internal water pressure, and to recycle used water
for the initial wash cycle.
They get their higher efficiencies by only using potable water for
final rinse at very hot temperatures. this removes soap film and
sanitizes the dishes. That used rinse water then has soap added
to it, and it used for washing the next load of dishes. Larger ones
will have three or four wash stages, with dishes going forward and
the steadily dirtier and cooler water moving backwards through
the machine.
--Dale
| |
| Derek Broughton 2005-11-23, 2:21 pm |
| John Robert McFerren wrote:
> My Cheapo Chineese TV has a switch on the front to switch ALL of the power
> off. If I were to use that I would loose the clock.
Ack! And why on earth does _every_ appliance have to have a clock?
> In that position the
> TV must be turned on in two steps. Press in on the power switch THEN
> press the channel up or down button, Power button on the remote or a
> number on
> the remote (for channels 1-9 instant on).
My TV has to be turned on in two steps too. Turn on wall switch, TV comes
on with Setup Menu displayed. Find remote (_its own_ remote - doesn't work
from any universal, doesn't work from the front switches) and turn off the
Setup menu. I do that every time I use it.
--
derek
| |
|
|
Derek Broughton wrote:
> Ack! And why on earth does _every_ appliance have to have a clock?
Leave it unplugged. It'll still tell the right time twice a day ;-). \
> My TV has to be turned on in two steps too. Turn on wall switch, TV comes
> on with Setup Menu displayed. Find remote (_its own_ remote - doesn't work
> from any universal, doesn't work from the front switches) and turn off the
> Setup menu. I do that every time I use it.
Me too... On goes the powerbar, then [program] to get rid of the big
"3", then [brightness] adjust to make it fit.
Next TV I buy, I'll make them turn it on at the store first ;-).
DJ
| |
| Solar Flare 2005-11-23, 9:21 pm |
| Why would intake pressure have an factor in the high
pressure washing of dishes?
I have seen many dishwashers and none care about the
pressure of the closed loop system while washing. The
spray pump does all the high pressure with the water in
the bottom recycled.
"Dale Farmer" <dale@cybercom.net> wrote in message
news:4384A503.300CD693@cybercom.net...
>
>
> Derek Broughton wrote:
>
non-negotiable for his wife, so he[color=darkred]
he could find (which they[color=darkred]
that he should have bought a[color=darkred]
that they want very[color=darkred]
usually a problem.[color=darkred]
system. But I wonder what[color=darkred]
better than 40psi out[color=darkred]
>
> Typical water pressures in commercial is also
40psi, but they are
> connected with much larger diameter piping to the
city, so you get
> that 40psi pressure at pretty much any flow rate.
The pumps I've
> had experience with(not many) have not maintained
that full pressure
> at a high flow rate. Some commercial washers
incorporate a booster
> pump to increase internal water pressure, and to
recycle used water
> for the initial wash cycle.
>
> They get their higher efficiencies by only using
potable water for
> final rinse at very hot temperatures. this removes
soap film and
> sanitizes the dishes. That used rinse water then
has soap added
> to it, and it used for washing the next load of
dishes. Larger ones
> will have three or four wash stages, with dishes
going forward and
> the steadily dirtier and cooler water moving
backwards through
> the machine.
>
> --Dale
>
>
| |
| Derek Broughton 2005-11-24, 11:21 am |
| DJ wrote:
> Derek Broughton wrote:
>
>
> Me too... On goes the powerbar, then [program] to get rid of the big
> "3", then [brightness] adjust to make it fit.
>
> Next TV I buy, I'll make them turn it on at the store first ;-).
It's not a big issue - I practically never watch TV, though we're up to
about 3 DVDs a week - but if it comes down to two-similarly priced systems
and one doesn't need to go through those hoops to start from complete
power-off, I'll take it.
--
derek
| |
|
|
<mrgrahamm@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1132627348.645691.188520@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>I thought European appliances were more efficient, than
> American ones. This is one reason why I wanted 230v/50hz.
They can be, but they are tougher to design that way. The 50 Hz losses in
motors, transformers and other electromagnetic devices are inherantly higher
than the losses for 60 Hz devices.
TKM
| |
|
| >
> Judging by the minimal wash activity and long cycle times you
> mentioned, I thought you were referring to front loaders with high
> spin speeds and condensate drying systems. Those are used in the
> common European machines found in my search link, and generally
> described as "ventless".
> http://resourcecenter.pnl.gov/cocoo...ter/article/132
> http://www.creativelaundry.com/product_line/LG.cfm Note the cold water
> use for drying in the descriptions. If you had some other technology
> in mind, how about posting some links.
>
> Wayne
LG advertises 7 gallons a minute discharge
doesn't sound to efficient to me
| |
| wmbjk 2005-11-29, 11:21 am |
| On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 22:25:42 -0500, "PCK" <pkaakee@look.ca> wrote:
>LG advertises 7 gallons a minute discharge
>doesn't sound to efficient to me
There are a few things in that machine's description that might be
taken as clues to high efficiency. Such as low water use (and
therefore less water heating), low detergent use, very high spin
speed, 115V supply, and condensate drying system. Yet you picked one
item out of context to imagine low efficiency instead. You might
attend some classes at Laundry U where you could learn all about
sweater folding, and that discharge rate is a useless indicator of
efficiency. Or you could just read from the web site - "Water Use 14
Gallons (washer), 3 gallon (dryer) with automatic load and water level
adjustment" http://www.creativelaundry.com/product_line/LG.cfm
Your post looks exactly like the silliness that Gymmy Bob is fond of
writing, and you're in the great white north as well. Is there
something in the water up there or have we stumbled over yet another
Gymmy nym?
Wayne
| |
| mrgrahamm@yahoo.com 2005-11-29, 3:21 pm |
| I did some searching online for efficient appliances. Some are European
but are designed 120v/60hz. Now I could use the 120v/60hz system
instead. Should a use a "msw" inverter such as a xantrex dr? Any
problems with these?
| |
| Steve Spence 2005-12-01, 12:21 pm |
| mrgrahamm@yahoo.com wrote:
> I did some searching online for efficient appliances. Some are European
> but are designed 120v/60hz. Now I could use the 120v/60hz system
> instead. Should a use a "msw" inverter such as a xantrex dr? Any
> problems with these?
>
I run my sears front loader and propane dryer on a 2500 watt MSW. The
xantrex are fine, but expensive, units.
--
Steve Spence
Dir., Green Trust, http://www.green-trust.org
Contributing Editor, http://www.off-grid.net
http://www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html
| |
| meow2222@care2.com 2005-12-18, 1:21 pm |
| Derek Broughton wrote:
> m Ransley wrote:
>
> I'd say Energy Star rated appliances _can_ be as efficient as any European
> unit. However, some of the things that are Energy Star rated either make no
> logical sense to me (_why_ can "Instant On" TVs get an ES rating? Why can
> top-loading washers get a rating?) or they just barely meet the criteria
> set by the ES program. I'd say only buy Energy Star, but even then, shop
> around for the best deal for you.
If you're serious about a top loader getting an ES rating, then theres
no comparison there with European energy levels at all. Our very worst
front loaders from 10 years ago ate a fraction the energy those things
do.
European front loaders just heat a small puddle of water, and dip the
outer clothes in it once per revolution. The clothes drum spends most
of its time stationary, it just turns once every 10 seconds or so. Its
a different order of magnitude.
Wash times are typically 90 minutes, but this varies, with some
(heavily criticised) machines haveing cycles of upto 3 hours to reduce
energy use.
There is also a more energy efficient design that I havent seen in a
while. This uses no puddle at all, a small pump sprays all the water
onto the clothes, just catching, heating, and spraying back the drips.
The drum is more open.
Re dishwashers, its possible to have one with no electricity at all.
Remove the rainwater downspout, and put the dishes there. Its truly
effective, despite using no electricity or detergent. You'll want to
dust the water away from the house wall of course.
NT
| |
| meow2222@care2.com 2005-12-18, 1:21 pm |
| nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu wrote:
> Dumping heat into cold water vs room air does not necessarily save
> electrical energy. A dehumidifier would. As would an indoor clothesline.
>
>
> I'm not sure how European dryers work, but I suspect the longer the drying
> time, the more the energy comes from warm house air and the less it comes
> from electric heat inside the dryer (with the indoor clothesline as the
> extreme example.) It shouldn't be hard to build an 8-hour dryer into
> a closet with a 1500 W thermostat heater and a humidistat. How much
> electrical energy would that save, compared to a conventional dryer?
> This could also save labor, with only one final clothes hanging.
>
> Nick
I do that with a dehumidifier. Just hang the clothes up, they dry
overnight. The dh takes care of any rise in RH. Cheaper to buy than a
drier, cheaper to run, more energy efficient, physically smaller, and
much more convenient.
European driers come in 2 flavours. The older type has a roughly 1.5kW
element, blows warm air thru and will dry a 5lb load in 20-40 minutes.
The newer type uses a closed air path with a watercooled condensor to
dry the air. Since the air is only partly cooled, less energy is used.
Washer driers are mostly of the 2nd type, stand alone driers more often
the first.
I still cant see any sense in buying a drier, but it seems everyone
else does.
NT
| |
| SolarFlare 2005-12-18, 4:21 pm |
| Yummmm. Cancer causing asphault, petroleum residues n
your dishes.
Do you have 40 place setting of dishes to go from
drought to drought? How does rat fur taste?
<meow2222@care2.com> wrote in message
news:1134923142.001165.30750@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Re dishwashers, its possible to have one with no
electricity at all.
> Remove the rainwater downspout, and put the dishes
there. Its truly
> effective, despite using no electricity or detergent.
You'll want to
> dust the water away from the house wall of course.
>
>
> NT
>
| |
| meow2222@care2.com 2005-12-18, 11:21 pm |
| SolarFlare wrote:
> Yummmm. Cancer causing asphault, petroleum residues n
> your dishes.
Actually after the first few minutes, roof water is surprisingly clean.
> Do you have 40 place setting of dishes to go from
> drought to drought? How does rat fur taste?
no we just have British weather!
NT
| |
| SolarFlare 2005-12-19, 12:21 am |
| I have to replace my asphalt shingles every 10-20
years. The product goes somewhere.
No thanx.
<meow2222@care2.com> wrote in message
news:1134962104.525755.29780@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> SolarFlare wrote:
n[color=darkred]
>
> Actually after the first few minutes, roof water is
surprisingly clean.
>
>
>
> no we just have British weather!
>
>
> NT
>
| |
| Derek Broughton 2005-12-19, 9:21 am |
| SolarFlare wrote:
> I have to replace my asphalt shingles every 10-20
> years. The product goes somewhere.
>
Of course it does, but if you were using roof water to wash your dishes that
"somewhere" would be "down the drain". There's no reason at all to expect
it to adhere to the dishes (particularly if you're using a detergent -
which he wasn't advocating).
Then again, you don't have to use asphalt shingles - an off-grid neighbour
uses a steel roof and gets all his household water off the roof. My sister
lives in Malta (where there is no spring water) and all water is either
piped from the nearest island, created in a desalination plant, or
collected on stone roofs. She still gets most of her water off the roof.
--
derek
| |
|
|
| meow2222@care2.com 2005-12-19, 1:21 pm |
| Steve Spence wrote:
> SolarFlare wrote:
>
>
> Not all of us have asphalt roofs ...
Most roofs in UK are not asphalt, but concrete tiles or slate.
NT
| |
| SolarFlare 2005-12-19, 9:21 pm |
| Sounds even worse....LOL
Cedar is a carcinogen if anybody was thinking that one.
A friend of mine collect roof water and swears by
laundry from it. Really soft without sodium content.
The acid content from the Ohio industrial glutten
atmosphere pigs may be a little hard on your clothes
though.
<meow2222@care2.com> wrote in message
news:1135011693.243830.279110@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Steve Spence wrote:
>
> Most roofs in UK are not asphalt, but concrete tiles
or slate.
>
> NT
>
| |
| Steve Spence 2005-12-19, 11:21 pm |
| SolarFlare wrote:
> Sounds even worse....LOL
>
> Cedar is a carcinogen if anybody was thinking that one.
>
> A friend of mine collect roof water and swears by
> laundry from it. Really soft without sodium content.
> The acid content from the Ohio industrial glutten
> atmosphere pigs may be a little hard on your clothes
> though.
>
> <meow2222@care2.com> wrote in message
> news:1135011693.243830.279110@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
>
> or slate.
>
>
>
>
I have a steel roof. We collect and drink our roof water, after
filtering. It's cleaner than our well water. We had it tested.
--
Steve Spence
Dir., Green Trust, http://www.green-trust.org
Contributing Editor, http://www.off-grid.net
http://www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html
| |
| meow2222@care2.com 2005-12-19, 11:21 pm |
| > > Most roofs in UK are not asphalt, but concrete tiles
> or slate.
SolarFlare wrote:
> Sounds even worse....LOL
I dont see how that can be. Neither slate nor crete dissolves or breaks
up into the water stream. And really theres no problem in the first
place.
> Cedar is a carcinogen if anybody was thinking that one.
asbestos roofs are fine for dishwashing too. {wait for illogical
emotional reaction}
> A friend of mine collect roof water and swears by
> laundry from it. Really soft without sodium content.
> The acid content from the Ohio industrial glutten
> atmosphere pigs may be a little hard on your clothes
> though.
not at all.
Mains water has more impurities in it than roof water, after the roof
has been rinsed. Using the initial dribbles from a roof is another
matter, those arent fit for much, unless treated first.
NT
| |
|
| meow2222@care2.com a =E9crit :
> Steve Spence wrote:
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Most roofs in UK are not asphalt, but concrete tiles or slate.
>=20
> NT
>=20
I thought there were a lot of fired clay (terra cotta?) tiles too?
| |
| meow2222@care2.com 2005-12-20, 2:21 pm |
| Mel wrote:
> meow2222@care2.com a =E9crit :
[color=darkred]
> I thought there were a lot of fired clay (terra cotta?) tiles too?
Those exist on some very old houses, but theyre something of a minority
thing. The 1800s saw the ubiquitous introduction of slate. Yes, real
slate. Terracotta was used before then, and thatch before terracotta.
I'm not clear on the dates, but I guess terracotta roofs would date
from the early 1800s or before.
NT
| |
|
| In article <WPydndwlF9LlzzrenZ2dnUVZ_v6dnZ2d@golden.net>,
"SolarFlare" <sfl.are@hot.mail.invalid> wrote:
> Cedar is a carcinogen if anybody was thinking that one.
Your not supposed to EAT it, your supposed to put it on your ROOF......
Me
| |
| daestrom 2005-12-20, 7:21 pm |
|
<meow2222@care2.com> wrote in message
news:1135048232.453652.240920@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> SolarFlare wrote:
>
> I dont see how that can be. Neither slate nor crete dissolves or breaks
> up into the water stream. And really theres no problem in the first
> place.
>
>
> asbestos roofs are fine for dishwashing too. {wait for illogical
> emotional reaction}
>
>
>
> not at all.
>
> Mains water has more impurities in it than roof water, after the roof
> has been rinsed. Using the initial dribbles from a roof is another
> matter, those arent fit for much, unless treated first.
>
I once saw a neat device for this. Sort of a counter-balanced bucket
assembly. When empty, it diverted rain water from the roof to the ground
until the 'bucket' filled. Then it tipped the other way and diverted the
rest of the water to the collection cistern. That way, the first 'dribbles'
of what not (bird droppings, dust, whatever) were flushed out to the ground
and the rest collected. After it stopped raining, a small hole would drain
the 'bucket' and reset the device automatically for the next rain.
Probably invented by an Aussie ;-)
daestrom
>
> NT
>
| |
| SolarFlare 2005-12-20, 8:21 pm |
| Do you get mineral and metal testing or just the usual
bacteria tests?
"Steve Spence" <sspence@green-trust.org> wrote in
message news:43a7715a$1_5@newsfeed.slurp.net...
>
> I have a steel roof. We collect and drink our roof
water, after
> filtering. It's cleaner than our well water. We had
it tested.
>
>
>
> --
> Steve Spence
> Dir., Green Trust, http://www.green-trust.org
> Contributing Editor, http://www.off-grid.net
> http://www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html
| |
| SolarFlare 2005-12-20, 8:21 pm |
| I believe that was in Home Power a few issues back.
"daestrom" <daestrom@NO_SPAM_HEREtwcny.rr.com> wrote in
message
news:Yw%pf.53029$ME5.16769@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
> I once saw a neat device for this. Sort of a
counter-balanced bucket
> assembly. When empty, it diverted rain water from
the roof to the ground
> until the 'bucket' filled. Then it tipped the other
way and diverted the
> rest of the water to the collection cistern. That
way, the first 'dribbles'
> of what not (bird droppings, dust, whatever) were
flushed out to the ground
> and the rest collected. After it stopped raining, a
small hole would drain
> the 'bucket' and reset the device automatically for
the next rain.
>
> Probably invented by an Aussie ;-)
>
> daestrom
>
>
>
| |
| SolarFlare 2005-12-20, 8:21 pm |
| Try to keep up with the topic there boy!
"Me" <Me@shadow.orgs> wrote in message
news:Me-81CC2A.10062920122005@netnews.worldnet.att.net...
> In article
<WPydndwlF9LlzzrenZ2dnUVZ_v6dnZ2d@golden.net>,
> "SolarFlare" <sfl.are@hot.mail.invalid> wrote:
>
one.[color=darkred]
>
> Your not supposed to EAT it, your supposed to put it
on your ROOF......
>
> Me
| |
| Steve Spence 2005-12-20, 11:21 pm |
| SolarFlare wrote:
> Do you get mineral and metal testing or just the usual
> bacteria tests?
>
The full suite of water quality tests. We didn't tell the water testing
company where it came from. We use a diversion dump that dumps the first
5 gallons. A good rain storm fills three 55 gallon drums or so.
--
Steve Spence
Dir., Green Trust, http://www.green-trust.org
Contributing Editor, http://www.off-grid.net
http://www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html
| |
| SolarFlare 2005-12-20, 11:21 pm |
| Sounds ike a metal roof would be the way to go. I need
to find out if anybody is making a more subdued range
of colours. Most are pretty brassy so far.
"Steve Spence" <sspence@green-trust.org> wrote in
message news:43a8c0ad$1_5@newsfeed.slurp.net...
> SolarFlare wrote:
usual[color=darkred]
>
>
> The full suite of water quality tests. We didn't tell
the water testing
> company where it came from. We use a diversion dump
that dumps the first
> 5 gallons. A good rain storm fills three 55 gallon
drums or so.
>
>
>
> --
> Steve Spence
> Dir., Green Trust, http://www.green-trust.org
> Contributing Editor, http://www.off-grid.net
> http://www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html
| |
|
|
| SolarFlare 2005-12-21, 11:21 pm |
| I have seen some of them but it's too shiny for the
castle look I want to build.
Does it dull over time?
Is it hard to stand on to play with PV from time to
time with a 12/12 roof?
"Steve Spence" <sspence@green-trust.org> wrote in
message news:43a97874$1_2@newsfeed.slurp.net...
> SolarFlare wrote:
need[color=darkred]
range[color=darkred]
>
> I like the forest green myself. It's shiny metal
right now.
>
>
> --
> Steve Spence
> Dir., Green Trust, http://www.green-trust.org
> Contributing Editor, http://www.off-grid.net
> http://www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html
| |
| Steve Spence 2005-12-22, 11:21 am |
| SolarFlare wrote:
> I have seen some of them but it's too shiny for the
> castle look I want to build.
>
> Does it dull over time?
>
> Is it hard to stand on to play with PV from time to
> time with a 12/12 roof?
>
The forest green ones are not shiny. fit right in with the trees. easy
to walk on except this time of year, the ice is treacherous. 12/12 is
pretty steep isn't it?
--
Steve Spence
Dir., Green Trust, http://www.green-trust.org
Contributing Editor, http://www.off-grid.net
http://www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html
| |
| SolarFlare 2005-12-22, 11:21 pm |
| 12/12? Yes but it makes a nice designed house for attic
cooling, exterior looks and ***NICE SOLAR PANEL
ANGLE*** here. (43.3 deg)
"Steve Spence" <sspence@green-trust.org> wrote in
message news:43aabcef$1_4@newsfeed.slurp.net...
> SolarFlare wrote:
>
>
> The forest green ones are not shiny. fit right in
with the trees. easy
> to walk on except this time of year, the ice is
treacherous. 12/12 is
> pretty steep isn't it?
>
>
> --
> Steve Spence
> Dir., Green Trust, http://www.green-trust.org
> Contributing Editor, http://www.off-grid.net
> http://www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html
|
|
|
|
|