|
Home > Archive > Alternative Power sources > December 2005 > Standby Generator Starting in cold weather
You are viewing an archived Text-only version of the thread.
To view this thread in it's original format and/or if you want to reply to
this thread please [click here]
| Author |
Standby Generator Starting in cold weather
|
|
| RF Dude 2005-11-28, 12:21 am |
| Scenario 1: Emergency diesel generator in a non-insulated outdoor
enclosure. In winter, the 1500W coffee maker (also known as a water jacket
heater) is brewing continuously since the thermostat is set to ~27C/ 82F.
Big waste of energy and a high cost for this parasitic power.
Scenario 2: Air cooled Lister generator set is available as surplus. Love
to buy it, but they were originally mounted indoors where the room
temperature kept them warm. I don't have such a room in my house. If
mounted outdoors, what options exist to keep it warm and ready to start when
required?
Scenario 3: Natural Gas (vapor) engine. Does this engine need to be kept
warm like the diesel? I'm thinking the coffee maker temperature can be
severly reduced to say 0C/32F or even lower?
So the overall question is how to reduce the parasitic operating cost of a
standby generator in cold weather while it is waiting for a power failure?
RF Dude
| |
| Dale Farmer 2005-11-28, 2:21 am |
|
RF Dude wrote:
> Scenario 1: Emergency diesel generator in a non-insulated outdoor
> enclosure. In winter, the 1500W coffee maker (also known as a water jacket
> heater) is brewing continuously since the thermostat is set to ~27C/ 82F.
> Big waste of energy and a high cost for this parasitic power.
>
> Scenario 2: Air cooled Lister generator set is available as surplus. Love
> to buy it, but they were originally mounted indoors where the room
> temperature kept them warm. I don't have such a room in my house. If
> mounted outdoors, what options exist to keep it warm and ready to start when
> required?
>
> Scenario 3: Natural Gas (vapor) engine. Does this engine need to be kept
> warm like the diesel? I'm thinking the coffee maker temperature can be
> severly reduced to say 0C/32F or even lower?
>
> So the overall question is how to reduce the parasitic operating cost of a
> standby generator in cold weather while it is waiting for a power failure?
>
> RF Dude
INsulate the enclosure Work to make the enclosure more airtight,
Perhaps some ducting with a blow-openable vent shutter. If the thing
doesn't actually need to be auto start and can await you going out to
set some stuff up, a propane fueled water heater in the coolant loop
that you go out and manually fire up prior to cranking.
Insulate the battery box and put in a tiny heater there.
--Dale
| |
| m Ransley 2005-11-28, 7:21 am |
| I dont understand your thoughts, do you need to keep your car warm to?
I dont. Run synthetic oil if you are, water cooled warm up fast.
| |
| barry@sme-online.com 2005-11-28, 1:21 pm |
| You might, if it were a diesel, and the temps dropped near zero. Just
drop the cranking speed a bit and the temp at injection gets iffy for
lighting the fire. Fuel jelling in the lines is definitely a problem
with diesel cars around 0 deg F.
Having the head(s) warmed above ambient makes ignition of high-comp
diesel much more likely, too.
Your suggestion might work, _if_ incoming air can be adequately
pre-heated and the fuel will flow in the lines.
J
| |
|
|
"RF Dude" <post@thisnewsgroup.com> wrote in message
news:lruif.1431$wf2.129032@news20.bellglobal.com...
> Scenario 1: Emergency diesel generator in a non-insulated outdoor
> enclosure. In winter, the 1500W coffee maker (also known as a water
jacket
> heater) is brewing continuously since the thermostat is set to ~27C/ 82F.
> Big waste of energy and a high cost for this parasitic power.
>
> Scenario 2: Air cooled Lister generator set is available as surplus.
Love
> to buy it, but they were originally mounted indoors where the room
> temperature kept them warm. I don't have such a room in my house. If
> mounted outdoors, what options exist to keep it warm and ready to start
when
> required?
>
> Scenario 3: Natural Gas (vapor) engine. Does this engine need to be kept
> warm like the diesel? I'm thinking the coffee maker temperature can be
> severly reduced to say 0C/32F or even lower?
>
> So the overall question is how to reduce the parasitic operating cost of a
> standby generator in cold weather while it is waiting for a power failure?
>
> RF Dude
Every diesel I have ever worked on or around was a pain in the XXX to start
if it was cold. Every water cooled engine had a "coffee maker". Every air
cooled one had a dip stick heater to keep the oil warm.
You might consider that if you were to disconnect the 1500 watt heater, on a
really cold night with no power you could be in for a long haul getting the
beastie started. Especially with NG. NG does not vaporize well at cold
temps. Once warmed up they seem to run fine.
Insulate the enclosure and the coffee maker would cycle to keep the engine
at temp. No insulation and it will run most of the time.
Lastly check with the engine manufacture and see if you could lower the
temp.
| |
| nospam.clare.nce@sny.der.on.ca 2005-11-28, 3:21 pm |
| On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 05:38:05 GMT, Dale Farmer <dale@cybercom.net>
wrote:
>
>
>RF Dude wrote:
>
>
> INsulate the enclosure Work to make the enclosure more airtight,
>Perhaps some ducting with a blow-openable vent shutter. If the thing
>doesn't actually need to be auto start and can await you going out to
>set some stuff up, a propane fueled water heater in the coolant loop
>that you go out and manually fire up prior to cranking.
> Insulate the battery box and put in a tiny heater there.
>
> --Dale
>
A farmer friend of mine has a sure-fire way of starting his big White
Field Boss if a surprise snow storm catches him without the block
heater plugged in and he has to blow the lane to let the milk truck
in. He just pulls the air intake, fires up his BernzoMatic soldering
torch, and lays it in the intake for about 3 minutes. Then it's just
hit the starter, and go.
| |
| tkgoogle@ktcnslt.com 2005-11-28, 4:21 pm |
| On Sun, 27 Nov 2005 22:02:56 -0500, "RF Dude" <post@thisnewsgroup.com>
wrote:
>Scenario 1: Emergency diesel generator in a non-insulated outdoor
>enclosure. In winter, the 1500W coffee maker (also known as a water jacket
>heater) is brewing continuously since the thermostat is set to ~27C/ 82F.
>Big waste of energy and a high cost for this parasitic power.
Mod on Scenario 1.. If immediate start is not necessary..
Make a removable R-10 insulated cover for diesel genny & fuel tank..
A couple of 1/2" layers of foil backed polystyrene or polyurethane
should do nicely.
Foil faces should point towards both interior and exterior.
Using "Nashua" aluminium duck tape, seal up modular panels and attach
appropriate velcro strips in order to secure panels to genny.
Cover exterior with tarp and then secure tarp.
Keep unit insulated, dry, and covered when not in operation.
Purchase small gas genny(2 to 3 kW, ~300$), decent 110v to 12Vdc bat
charger(~$30), keep in garage/elevated temp until needed.
Upon onset of extended power outage. Fire up small gas genny and
charge for diesel starting battery and power coffee maker while R10
insulating cover is still attached.
After a couple of hours of gas genny run time, the diesel genny &
bat should be up to a reasonable temp. Start diesel, remove R10 cover,
shut down gas genny. Take gas unit back inside.
You shouldn't need much more than quart of gasoline for each cold
start of diesel unit .
If shutting down diesel for night, put R10 insulating cover back on.
It should still be warm enough the next morning for a restart without
too many problems.
| |
| Robert Morein 2005-11-28, 4:21 pm |
|
<barry@sme-online.com> wrote in message
news:1133195966.330021.29060@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> You might, if it were a diesel, and the temps dropped near zero. Just
> drop the cranking speed a bit and the temp at injection gets iffy for
> lighting the fire. Fuel jelling in the lines is definitely a problem
> with diesel cars around 0 deg F.
>
> Having the head(s) warmed above ambient makes ignition of high-comp
> diesel much more likely, too.
>
> Your suggestion might work, _if_ incoming air can be adequately
> pre-heated and the fuel will flow in the lines.
>
This is exactly how the NATO 2kW field generator works:
http://www.deweyelectronics.com/generators_spec.html
It can start down to -25F.
The unit has a 400 watt air intake preheater. This is used for a 30 second
preheat, so it can easily be powered off of batteries.
With respect to fuel, the advice I have received is that if the fuel is
purchased in the middle of the winter, it will by default be winter blend,
and will never gel (assuming a temperate climate winter, I don't have an
answer for subarctic.)
| |
| Bruce in Alaska 2005-11-28, 4:21 pm |
| In article <lruif.1431$wf2.129032@news20.bellglobal.com>,
"RF Dude" <post@thisnewsgroup.com> wrote:
> Scenario 1: Emergency diesel generator in a non-insulated outdoor
> enclosure. In winter, the 1500W coffee maker (also known as a water jacket
> heater) is brewing continuously since the thermostat is set to ~27C/ 82F.
> Big waste of energy and a high cost for this parasitic power.
>
> Scenario 2: Air cooled Lister generator set is available as surplus. Love
> to buy it, but they were originally mounted indoors where the room
> temperature kept them warm. I don't have such a room in my house. If
> mounted outdoors, what options exist to keep it warm and ready to start when
> required?
>
> Scenario 3: Natural Gas (vapor) engine. Does this engine need to be kept
> warm like the diesel? I'm thinking the coffee maker temperature can be
> severly reduced to say 0C/32F or even lower?
>
> So the overall question is how to reduce the parasitic operating cost of a
> standby generator in cold weather while it is waiting for a power failure?
>
> RF Dude
>
>
Answer1: As any diesel engine operator knows, it isn't the temp of the
cooling system or the base oil, that stops a diesel from firing up at
low temps. It is the temp of the AIR going in the Intake Manifold.
Rip out that "coffee Maker" and attach the Old Ladies 1000 Watt Hair
Dryer to the Intake Manifold and give it a few seconds to blow HOT
Air down the intake pipe, then roll over the engine, an POP your running
on the second compression cycle. WHy do you think Long Haul Truckers
carry Hair Dryers in their rigs? It is not to dry their hair at
truckstops....Just what do you think the purpose of a GLOWPLUG is?
Answer2: See answer1: I have seen Listers started, in -20F weather,
in unheated enclosers, in less than 30 Seconds, using answer1. Hot
air is your friend......to bad you can't fly Rush Limbaugh down when
you need to start up...... (joke).....
Answer3: Never had a Propane or NG powered engine so can't say...
See Answer1 for a good way to keep standby operating costs to a very
minimum. The Hair Dryer only runs for a max of 90 Seconds at 1Kw
and the engine will be running with very little sweat. Use a good
Multiviscosity OIl like Delo 400 15W40 or if your really cold (below
-50F) 5W40 and forget about all the other BS. Mix you fuel 50/50
with Diesel #1/Diesel#2 and your good to below -40F. In alaska we call
that WinterMix diesel.
Bruce in alaska
--
add a <2> before @
| |
| andre_54005@yahoo.com 2005-11-28, 4:21 pm |
|
Bruce in Alaska wrote:
> In article <lruif.1431$wf2.129032@news20.bellglobal.com>,
> "RF Dude" <post@thisnewsgroup.com> wrote:
>
>
> Answer1: As any diesel engine operator knows, it isn't the temp of the
> cooling system or the base oil, that stops a diesel from firing up at
> low temps. It is the temp of the AIR going in the Intake Manifold.
> Rip out that "coffee Maker" and attach the Old Ladies 1000 Watt Hair
> Dryer to the Intake Manifold and give it a few seconds to blow HOT
> Air down the intake pipe, then roll over the engine, an POP your running
> on the second compression cycle. WHy do you think Long Haul Truckers
> carry Hair Dryers in their rigs? It is not to dry their hair at
> truckstops....Just what do you think the purpose of a GLOWPLUG is?
>
> Answer2: See answer1: I have seen Listers started, in -20F weather,
> in unheated enclosers, in less than 30 Seconds, using answer1. Hot
> air is your friend......to bad you can't fly Rush Limbaugh down when
> you need to start up...... (joke).....
>
> Answer3: Never had a Propane or NG powered engine so can't say...
>
> See Answer1 for a good way to keep standby operating costs to a very
> minimum. The Hair Dryer only runs for a max of 90 Seconds at 1Kw
> and the engine will be running with very little sweat. Use a good
> Multiviscosity OIl like Delo 400 15W40 or if your really cold (below
> -50F) 5W40 and forget about all the other BS. Mix you fuel 50/50
> with Diesel #1/Diesel#2 and your good to below -40F. In alaska we call
> that WinterMix diesel.
>
> Bruce in alaska
> --
> add a <2> before @
And a pan of hot coals from the stove, placed under the oil pan for a
few minutes will do wonders for the cranking speed if you have the
wrong oil or a weak battery. Toss and old blanket over the entire
engine or at least the frount end of a tractor/truck if it is out in
the wind. Keep the blanket away from the coals, and beware of oil
dripping off the engine into the pan of coals.
Works even when you do not have the 1000 watts for the hair dryer.
_________
Andre' B.
| |
| daestrom 2005-11-28, 6:21 pm |
|
"SQLit" <sqlit@qwest.net> wrote in message
news:2AGif.565$QD5.801@news.uswest.net...
>
> "RF Dude" <post@thisnewsgroup.com> wrote in message
> news:lruif.1431$wf2.129032@news20.bellglobal.com...
> jacket
> Love
> when
>
> Every diesel I have ever worked on or around was a pain in the XXX to
> start
> if it was cold. Every water cooled engine had a "coffee maker". Every air
> cooled one had a dip stick heater to keep the oil warm.
>
> You might consider that if you were to disconnect the 1500 watt heater, on
> a
> really cold night with no power you could be in for a long haul getting
> the
> beastie started. Especially with NG. NG does not vaporize well at cold
> temps. Once warmed up they seem to run fine.
Perhaps you're thinking of propane. It doesn't vaporize easily when its 0F
or below. But 'natural gas' (mostly methane) is a vapor at much lower
temperatures and wouldn't be a problem.
daestrom
| |
| William P.N. Smith 2005-11-28, 9:21 pm |
| "RF Dude" <post@thisnewsgroup.com> wrote:
>Scenario 1: Emergency diesel generator in a non-insulated outdoor
>enclosure. In winter, the 1500W coffee maker (also known as a water jacket
>heater) is brewing continuously since the thermostat is set to ~27C/ 82F.
Can you turn this heater down? You don't want to keep the generator
_hot_ all the time, just warm enough to start when it's cold.
My air-cooled 8.2KW NG generator's never failed to start or run it's
weekly exercise cycle in a Boston suburb, if that helps. I use
Mobil-1 synthetic 5W30, FWIW...
| |
| RF Dude 2005-11-29, 12:21 am |
| Thanks for all the reply's. Lets recap for the diesels:
1) Turn down or shut off completely the 1500W kettle. Perhap control it
with an external thermo that turns it on at say 32F/0C or even a few degrees
colder. Experiment a bit to find the temperature that will still reliably
start the genny. Increase the engine warm up time before applying a load.
2) Use synthetic oil, or a 150W oil pan heater to allow the machine to turn
quickly when the starter engages.
3) Use the engine glow plug. But I haven't found an engine controller yet
that will automate this process for unattended operation. Say use the glow
plug under control of a pre-heat timer. The controller would engage this
pre-heat only under 40F for instance. I have seen engine controllers that
have a glow plug button, but an operator must be present to engage this
(presumably after a no-start condition).
4) Sounds like I'll have to monitor the battery very well. Trying to run a
glow plug for 3o seconds AND crank the engine would require a healthy
battery.
5) An insulated engine enclosure with louvres that seal when engine doesn't
run is the best approach, but will add cost.
Would putting 120V trace tape heating on the intake manifold along with some
insulation assist in a hot first gulp of air?
A bus driver told me they used to use Either to start them in the dead of
winter. But the engines weren't too crazy about it.
Gasoline engines start at very cold temperatures, so I can't imagine why a
NG engine wouldn't do the same. Looking at the Kohler 40 kW machine, the
V-6 is the same engine as in a GM Astro van. So one would think that only
the coldest prarie days need the coffee maker, just like a car.
| |
| Dale Farmer 2005-11-29, 12:21 am |
|
nospam.clare.nce@sny.der.on.ca wrote:
> On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 05:38:05 GMT, Dale Farmer <dale@cybercom.net>
> wrote:
>
> A farmer friend of mine has a sure-fire way of starting his big White
> Field Boss if a surprise snow storm catches him without the block
> heater plugged in and he has to blow the lane to let the milk truck
> in. He just pulls the air intake, fires up his BernzoMatic soldering
> torch, and lays it in the intake for about 3 minutes. Then it's just
> hit the starter, and go.
A friend has a US navy surplus diesel genny with a small gasoline tank,
fuel pump and a spray nozzle into the air intake. Turn on the pump, which
also cranks a small magneto to provide sparks for the igniter, and suddenly
you have a fire in the air intake. Wait a minute, then crank the engine.
This was referred to as the arctic weather add on kit in the manual.
--Dale
| |
| RF Dude 2005-11-29, 1:21 am |
| I have to hand you the award... this is the best suggestion yet... if not a
funny one!
> A friend has a US navy surplus diesel genny with a small gasoline tank,
> fuel pump and a spray nozzle into the air intake. Turn on the pump, which
> also cranks a small magneto to provide sparks for the igniter, and
> suddenly
> you have a fire in the air intake. Wait a minute, then crank the engine.
> This was referred to as the arctic weather add on kit in the manual.
>
> --Dale
>
| |
| Ron Rosenfeld 2005-11-29, 10:21 am |
| On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 22:19:29 -0500, "RF Dude" <post@thisnewsgroup.com>
wrote:
>Gasoline engines start at very cold temperatures, so I can't imagine why a
>NG engine wouldn't do the same. Looking at the Kohler 40 kW machine, the
>V-6 is the same engine as in a GM Astro van. So one would think that only
>the coldest prarie days need the coffee maker, just like a car.
>
I have a Kohler 12kW generator set up to run on propane. It uses a Ford 4
cylinder engine (liquid cooled). Kohler installs a block heater on the
engine, but gives no recommendation as to what temperature it is required.
For their 20kW+ sets, they recommend that a block heater be installed if
ambient temperature will drop below 60°F, but, again, don't have a
recommendation for what temperature to turn it on!
I usually plug it in if the temperature is below 32°F but, since I'm
off-grid and everything is controlled by my inverters, I have it plugged
into a voltage controlled outlet which doesn't turn on unless my battery
voltage drops into the range where there's going to be a startup in about
two hours. This gives it enough time to heat up. It draws about 750
watts.
Obviously, this type of control would not be appropriate for a
grid-connected system where it is being used for standby power.
-- ron (off the grid in Downeast Maine)
| |
|
|
|
|
"daestrom" <daestrom@NO_SPAM_HEREtwcny.rr.com> wrote in message
news:OaLif.36325$DL6.27367@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
>
> "SQLit" <sqlit@qwest.net> wrote in message
> news:2AGif.565$QD5.801@news.uswest.net...
82F.[color=darkred]
of[color=darkred]
air[color=darkred]
on[color=darkred]
>
> Perhaps you're thinking of propane. It doesn't vaporize easily when its
0F
> or below. But 'natural gas' (mostly methane) is a vapor at much lower
> temperatures and wouldn't be a problem.
>
> daestrom
Absolutely correct. I fat fingered the letters. LP is what I was thinking
of.
I had a LP on top of a 5K hill above sea level that gave us fits every
winter.
| |
| nospam.clare.nce@sny.der.on.ca 2005-11-29, 4:21 pm |
| On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 22:19:29 -0500, "RF Dude" <post@thisnewsgroup.com>
wrote:
>Thanks for all the reply's. Lets recap for the diesels:
>
>1) Turn down or shut off completely the 1500W kettle. Perhap control it
>with an external thermo that turns it on at say 32F/0C or even a few degrees
>colder. Experiment a bit to find the temperature that will still reliably
>start the genny. Increase the engine warm up time before applying a load.
>2) Use synthetic oil, or a 150W oil pan heater to allow the machine to turn
>quickly when the starter engages.
>3) Use the engine glow plug. But I haven't found an engine controller yet
>that will automate this process for unattended operation. Say use the glow
>plug under control of a pre-heat timer. The controller would engage this
>pre-heat only under 40F for instance. I have seen engine controllers that
>have a glow plug button, but an operator must be present to engage this
>(presumably after a no-start condition).
>4) Sounds like I'll have to monitor the battery very well. Trying to run a
>glow plug for 3o seconds AND crank the engine would require a healthy
>battery.
>5) An insulated engine enclosure with louvres that seal when engine doesn't
>run is the best approach, but will add cost.
>
>Would putting 120V trace tape heating on the intake manifold along with some
>insulation assist in a hot first gulp of air?
>
>A bus driver told me they used to use Either to start them in the dead of
>winter. But the engines weren't too crazy about it.
>
>Gasoline engines start at very cold temperatures, so I can't imagine why a
>NG engine wouldn't do the same. Looking at the Kohler 40 kW machine, the
>V-6 is the same engine as in a GM Astro van. So one would think that only
>the coldest prarie days need the coffee maker, just like a car.
>
The engine will start cold if you can get the LP flowing. You need
heat for the evaporator.
| |
|
| In article <SMPif.3639$wf2.322353@news20.bellglobal.com>,
"RF Dude" <post@thisnewsgroup.com> wrote:
> A bus driver told me they used to use Either to start them in the dead of
> winter. But the engines weren't too crazy about it.
VERY BAD Idea, that.....Ether is a good way to kill te engine ....
especially is you don't understand the reasons that it works and why it
would be a VERY BAD Idea.........
Me
| |
|
|
"Me" <Me@shadow.orgs> wrote in message
news:Me-05CF16.11352129112005@netnews.worldnet.att.net...
> In article <SMPif.3639$wf2.322353@news20.bellglobal.com>,
> "RF Dude" <post@thisnewsgroup.com> wrote:
>
of[color=darkred]
>
> VERY BAD Idea, that.....Ether is a good way to kill te engine ....
> especially is you don't understand the reasons that it works and why it
> would be a VERY BAD Idea.........
>
>
> Me
Please enlighten us (me) why ether is a bad idea.
Thanks.
----== Posted via droptable.com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.droptable.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----
| |
|
|
"Me" <Me@shadow.orgs> wrote in message
news:Me-05CF16.11352129112005@netnews.worldnet.att.net...
> In article <SMPif.3639$wf2.322353@news20.bellglobal.com>,
> "RF Dude" <post@thisnewsgroup.com> wrote:
>
>
> VERY BAD Idea, that.....Ether is a good way to kill te engine ....
> especially is you don't understand the reasons that it works and why it
> would be a VERY BAD Idea.........
Ether was the prescribed method for starting Army 5 and 10 ton trucks in the
dead of sub zero winter in Germany back in the 70's.
I did it to my truck for 3 years and never had a problem, as long as you
consider blowing my asst. drivers eyebrows off a problem. ;-)
| |
| n877@msn.com 2005-11-30, 1:21 am |
| Ether can cause uncontrolled cumbustion and also shortens the life of
the engine. It causes cracks in the pistons. If you have used ether you
probably experienced a lock-up where the engine will no longer turn
over until the ether disipates. This is not good. Slow cranking speed
is a major cause of a no start. The piston do not have enough speed to
generate enough heat to cause combustion. Sometimes ice will form on
the nozzle tips. I would use 15w-40 synthetic oil. Keep the batterys
warm. The Benz-o matic is a great idea, it adds heat to the combustion
chamber. Make sure you have enough additive in the fuel to prevent
gelling. Power service is an excellent product you can get at Wal Mart.
If you do this it is a guarantee the engine wiil fire up.
Ron
| |
| Steve Spence 2005-11-30, 11:21 am |
| RF Dude wrote:
> Scenario 1: Emergency diesel generator in a non-insulated outdoor
> enclosure. In winter, the 1500W coffee maker (also known as a water jacket
> heater) is brewing continuously since the thermostat is set to ~27C/ 82F.
> Big waste of energy and a high cost for this parasitic power.
>
> Scenario 2: Air cooled Lister generator set is available as surplus. Love
> to buy it, but they were originally mounted indoors where the room
> temperature kept them warm. I don't have such a room in my house. If
> mounted outdoors, what options exist to keep it warm and ready to start when
> required?
>
> Scenario 3: Natural Gas (vapor) engine. Does this engine need to be kept
> warm like the diesel? I'm thinking the coffee maker temperature can be
> severly reduced to say 0C/32F or even lower?
>
> So the overall question is how to reduce the parasitic operating cost of a
> standby generator in cold weather while it is waiting for a power failure?
>
> RF Dude
>
>
air cooled lister? hmmm.... all the ones I've seen are water cooled.
We start our detroit diesel 2-71 (outdoors at -40) with no preheater,
just a shot of ether. Hard on starters. Boxing it in and putting a
propane water heater inline with the cooling system.
Our neighbors propane ford powered 30kw unit won't start in cold temps
unassisted.
--
Steve Spence
Dir., Green Trust, http://www.green-trust.org
Contributing Editor, http://www.off-grid.net
http://www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html
| |
| Steve Spence 2005-11-30, 11:21 am |
| m Ransley wrote:
> I dont understand your thoughts, do you need to keep your car warm to?
> I dont. Run synthetic oil if you are, water cooled warm up fast.
>
diesels need heat to start. With no glow plugs, they can be a bear to
get running once the mercury gets south of rediculous.
--
Steve Spence
Dir., Green Trust, http://www.green-trust.org
Contributing Editor, http://www.off-grid.net
http://www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html
| |
| Ignoramus5455 2005-11-30, 11:21 am |
| On Sun, 27 Nov 2005 22:02:56 -0500, RF Dude <post@thisnewsgroup.com> wrote:
> Scenario 1: Emergency diesel generator in a non-insulated outdoor
> enclosure. In winter, the 1500W coffee maker (also known as a water jacket
> heater) is brewing continuously since the thermostat is set to ~27C/ 82F.
> Big waste of energy and a high cost for this parasitic power.
The way I start my diesel generator is as follows. I flip the "glow
plug" switch on for a minute, and then flip the START switch.
> Scenario 2: Air cooled Lister generator set is available as surplus. Love
> to buy it, but they were originally mounted indoors where the room
> temperature kept them warm. I don't have such a room in my house. If
> mounted outdoors, what options exist to keep it warm and ready to start when
> required?
Do they have glow plugs?
> Scenario 3: Natural Gas (vapor) engine. Does this engine need to be kept
> warm like the diesel? I'm thinking the coffee maker temperature can be
> severly reduced to say 0C/32F or even lower?
>
> So the overall question is how to reduce the parasitic operating cost of a
> standby generator in cold weather while it is waiting for a power failure?
Note that it is not very easy to have a simple standby heater that
would not be prone to disastrous failures (such as fires due to, say,
mice building a next next to it etc).
If your diesel does not have glow plugs, and does not start from hot
air blown into air intake, I would invest in some sort of propane
torch powered from propane tanks. Could be the safest and cheapest
solution. This assumes that your diesel lives in some enclosure.
i
| |
| nospam.clare.nce@sny.der.on.ca 2005-11-30, 6:21 pm |
| On Tue, 29 Nov 2005 20:34:58 GMT, Me <Me@shadow.orgs> wrote:
>In article <SMPif.3639$wf2.322353@news20.bellglobal.com>,
> "RF Dude" <post@thisnewsgroup.com> wrote:
>
>
>VERY BAD Idea, that.....Ether is a good way to kill te engine ....
>especially is you don't understand the reasons that it works and why it
>would be a VERY BAD Idea.........
>
>
>Me
Then explain to me why MANY deisel engines came from the factory with
ether start???
Works good on a deisel if done right - but it IS murder on spark
ignition gasoline engines.
| |
| Ignoramus5455 2005-11-30, 6:21 pm |
| On Wed, 30 Nov 2005 16:53:06 -0500, nospam.clare.nce@sny.der.on.ca <nospam.clare.nce@sny.der.on.ca> wrote:
> On Tue, 29 Nov 2005 20:34:58 GMT, Me <Me@shadow.orgs> wrote:
>
> Then explain to me why MANY deisel engines came from the factory with
> ether start???
> Works good on a deisel if done right - but it IS murder on spark
> ignition gasoline engines.
It works on diesels designed for it, and can ruin diesels NOT designed
for it. My Onan DJE is not designed for ether start and there are
numerous warnings against using ether. It has glow plugs instead.
i
--
| |
|
|
"Ignoramus5455" <ignoramus5455@NOSPAM.5455.invalid> wrote in message
news:6ipjf.2833$xf5.330@fe22.usenetserver.com...
> On Wed, 30 Nov 2005 16:53:06 -0500, nospam.clare.nce@sny.der.on.ca
> <nospam.clare.nce@sny.der.on.ca> wrote:
>
> It works on diesels designed for it, and can ruin diesels NOT designed
> for it. My Onan DJE is not designed for ether start and there are
> numerous warnings against using ether. It has glow plugs instead.
Army diesel and mogas trucks have glowplugs and preheaters but in sub zero
weather nothing would get them started except blowing either straight into
the intake manifold while cranking the starter. Maybe they were designed for
it, I don't know.
| |
| Ignoramus607 2005-12-01, 11:21 am |
| On Thu, 01 Dec 2005 14:44:31 GMT, Don <one-if-by-land@concord.com> wrote:
>
> "Ignoramus5455" <ignoramus5455@NOSPAM.5455.invalid> wrote in message
> news:6ipjf.2833$xf5.330@fe22.usenetserver.com...
>
> Army diesel and mogas trucks have glowplugs and preheaters but in sub zero
> weather nothing would get them started except blowing either straight into
> the intake manifold while cranking the starter. Maybe they were designed for
> it, I don't know.
Well, blowing hot air into intakes is not the same as using ether. Hot
air does not explode like ether does.
I know that my Onan DJC starts at at least 0F without hot air. I do
not recall trying it at colder temps, but I suspect that I tried that
and it worked. I will try that this winter.
i
| |
| Steve Spence 2005-12-01, 12:21 pm |
| Me wrote:
> In article <SMPif.3639$wf2.322353@news20.bellglobal.com>,
> "RF Dude" <post@thisnewsgroup.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> VERY BAD Idea, that.....Ether is a good way to kill te engine ....
> especially is you don't understand the reasons that it works and why it
> would be a VERY BAD Idea.........
>
>
> Me
Ether is the only way to get a cold diesel truck running in our end of
the country. It's like a chainsaw, safe if you know what you are doing.
--
Steve Spence
Dir., Green Trust, http://www.green-trust.org
Contributing Editor, http://www.off-grid.net
http://www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html
| |
| Steve Spence 2005-12-01, 12:21 pm |
| Newby wrote:
> "Me" <Me@shadow.orgs> wrote in message
> news:Me-05CF16.11352129112005@netnews.worldnet.att.net...
>
>
> of
>
>
>
> Please enlighten us (me) why ether is a bad idea.
>
> Thanks.
>
If you have glow plugs, ether can ignite when you don't want it to. On a
non heated diesel, ether is a common engine starter. Many folks who have
never had to start a diesel at -40 will tell you ether is bad .....
--
Steve Spence
Dir., Green Trust, http://www.green-trust.org
Contributing Editor, http://www.off-grid.net
http://www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html
| |
|
| In article <438f1a42$1_4@newsfeed.slurp.net>,
Steve Spence <sspence@green-trust.org> wrote:
> Ether is the only way to get a cold diesel truck running in our end of
> the country. It's like a chainsaw, safe if you know what you are doing.
>
> --
> Steve Spence
> Dir., Green Trust, http://www.green-trust.org
> Contributing Editor, http://www.off-grid.net
> http://www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html
No, ether is the only way, YOU have figured out, to start that
2-71 Jimmy engine on your genset. There are giant differences
between your 2 cycle Jimmy and any 4 cycle diesel, in starting
proceedures. Also your 2-71 isn't naturally asperated, as it has
a Geartrain Driven Blower, which makes it different, in starting in cold
Wx, from any naturally asperated diesel engine. If you have an
Exhaust driven Turbocharger, you would be looking at another
basic cold Wx starting proceedure, altogether. These things are
just not as generic as some folks think......
Me
| |
|
| In article <6o7so15ruas85sct84ndikfu7p5ujiaouo@4ax.com>,
nospam.clare.nce@sny.der.on.ca wrote:
> Then explain to me why MANY deisel engines came from the factory with
> ether start???
> Works good on a deisel if done right - but it IS murder on spark
> ignition gasoline engines.
More like "Just a few" come with Ether Starting Systems, and it is
used on 2 cycle diesels, almost exclusivly. Tell us all why the
use of ether makes diesels start in extreme cold Wx? What is
it that makes ether work and regular starting proceedures not work
when the ambient temps are very low?
If you can, also expound to us all, just why ether is BAD for Gas
engines, and GOOD for diesels? Show us all your intellectual prowess.
Me
| |
|
| "Ignoramus607"> wrote
>
> Well, blowing hot air into intakes is not the same as using ether. Hot
> air does not explode like ether does.
I made a spelling error above.
That should say '....blowing ether straight into the intake....'.
Yes, the ether would sometimes backfire out of the aircleaner.
But we would just keep cranking and blowing the ether in and they would
start.
The ether was in large aerosol cans from the motorpool and all the drivers
had a case in the OEM box on their truck.
This was standard procedure for the 3 winters I spent in Germany.
| |
| nospam.clare.nce@sny.der.on.ca 2005-12-02, 3:21 am |
| On Fri, 02 Dec 2005 00:55:09 GMT, Me <Me@shadow.orgs> wrote:
>In article <6o7so15ruas85sct84ndikfu7p5ujiaouo@4ax.com>,
> nospam.clare.nce@sny.der.on.ca wrote:
>
>
>More like "Just a few" come with Ether Starting Systems, and it is
>used on 2 cycle diesels, almost exclusivly. Tell us all why the
>use of ether makes diesels start in extreme cold Wx? What is
>it that makes ether work and regular starting proceedures not work
>when the ambient temps are very low?
>
>If you can, also expound to us all, just why ether is BAD for Gas
>engines, and GOOD for diesels? Show us all your intellectual prowess.
>
>Me
OK - your snide remarks aside -
Ether lights a LOT easier than fuel oil - so when extremely cold, the
engine will warm the ether enough to fire by compression alone, while
the heat of compression is not adequate to light the fuel oil. This
is particularly effective on engines that have either no glow plugs or
defective glow plugs.
When the ether lights it goes off with a fair amount of force - which
the deisel engine is strongly enough built to handle.
In a gasoline engine ether is not lit by compression temperature, but
by spark. The gasoline engine is not designed with as much strength,
as it is designed to run at considerably lower compression ratio, and
lower cyl pressures. The burn rate/profile of a gasoline engine is
designed to provide a relatively slow rate of pressure rise, with max
pressure some 40 degrees after TDC.
Firing ether at some 10 degrees BTDC causes a VERY FAST RATE OF
PREASSURE INCREASE while the piston is still coming up. This can crack
pistons, bend rods, blow head gaskets, or crack heads. Or, with a
little bit of luck, and CAREFULL use, it will start a stubborn gas
engine as well.
Another problem with ether is it tends to wash the oil off the cyls.
This is more critical on gas engines because deisel fuel, being a
light oil, has lubricating properties that gasoline does not poses.
Also, I said many engines CAME with ether start. This is in the past.
Very few TODAY come with ether start. However, it was NOT ONLY 2
stroke deisel engines that came with ether start. It was available on
quite a few ag tractors with 4 stroke compression ignition engines -
Perkins and Cummins as well as some others.
The reason it was almost REQUIRED on the old 2 stroke jimmy is until
the engine was cranking at a good speed the blower did not have enough
effect to boost the compression pressures high enough on a very cold
engine to light the fuel. IIRC the ether was injected below the blower
on the Jimmy, directly into the manifold at the intake port. On
normally aspirated 4 stroke compression ignition engines ether is
generally injected into the intake at the air filter.
This is not adviseable, apparently, on turboed 4 strokes, particularly
with manifold mounted pre-heaters (as compared to port mounted glow
plugs)
| |
|
| In article <ihqvo19cbpqj4n1ebvt3mkpf5v3im3e39i@4ax.com>,
nospam.clare.nce@sny.der.on.ca wrote:
> On Fri, 02 Dec 2005 00:55:09 GMT, Me <Me@shadow.orgs> wrote:
>
> OK - your snide remarks aside -
> Ether lights a LOT easier than fuel oil - so when extremely cold, the
> engine will warm the ether enough to fire by compression alone, while
> the heat of compression is not adequate to light the fuel oil. This
> is particularly effective on engines that have either no glow plugs or
> defective glow plugs.
>
> When the ether lights it goes off with a fair amount of force - which
> the deisel engine is strongly enough built to handle.
>
> In a gasoline engine ether is not lit by compression temperature, but
> by spark. The gasoline engine is not designed with as much strength,
> as it is designed to run at considerably lower compression ratio, and
> lower cyl pressures. The burn rate/profile of a gasoline engine is
> designed to provide a relatively slow rate of pressure rise, with max
> pressure some 40 degrees after TDC.
>
> Firing ether at some 10 degrees BTDC causes a VERY FAST RATE OF
> PREASSURE INCREASE while the piston is still coming up. This can crack
> pistons, bend rods, blow head gaskets, or crack heads. Or, with a
> little bit of luck, and CAREFULL use, it will start a stubborn gas
> engine as well.
>
> Another problem with ether is it tends to wash the oil off the cyls.
> This is more critical on gas engines because deisel fuel, being a
> light oil, has lubricating properties that gasoline does not poses.
>
> Also, I said many engines CAME with ether start. This is in the past.
> Very few TODAY come with ether start. However, it was NOT ONLY 2
> stroke deisel engines that came with ether start. It was available on
> quite a few ag tractors with 4 stroke compression ignition engines -
> Perkins and Cummins as well as some others.
>
> The reason it was almost REQUIRED on the old 2 stroke jimmy is until
> the engine was cranking at a good speed the blower did not have enough
> effect to boost the compression pressures high enough on a very cold
> engine to light the fuel. IIRC the ether was injected below the blower
> on the Jimmy, directly into the manifold at the intake port. On
> normally aspirated 4 stroke compression ignition engines ether is
> generally injected into the intake at the air filter.
> This is not adviseable, apparently, on turboed 4 strokes, particularly
> with manifold mounted pre-heaters (as compared to port mounted glow
> plugs)
Ok, you have some knowledge of engine technology. Thank you for
providing the Group with this information.
Me
| |
| nospam.clare.nce@sny.der.on.ca 2005-12-05, 10:21 pm |
| On Fri, 02 Dec 2005 18:44:53 GMT, Me <Me@shadow.orgs> wrote:
>In article <ihqvo19cbpqj4n1ebvt3mkpf5v3im3e39i@4ax.com>,
> nospam.clare.nce@sny.der.on.ca wrote:
>
>
>Ok, you have some knowledge of engine technology. Thank you for
>providing the Group with this information.
>
>Me
I've only been a mechanic since 1969, and taught both high school and
trade level automotive technology for several years.
Did my apprenticeship in a general garage that was also a farm
equipment dealership, and worked for a time for an industrial
equipment shop (case/allis and several other brands)along with 10
years as service manager at a Toyota dealership.
Accumulated a TITTLE bit of knowlege about automobiles and other
motorized and mechanical contraptions.
| |
| Steve Spence 2005-12-06, 3:21 pm |
| Me wrote:
> In article <438f1a42$1_4@newsfeed.slurp.net>,
> Steve Spence <sspence@green-trust.org> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> No, ether is the only way, YOU have figured out, to start that
> 2-71 Jimmy engine on your genset. There are giant differences
> between your 2 cycle Jimmy and any 4 cycle diesel, in starting
> proceedures. Also your 2-71 isn't naturally asperated, as it has
> a Geartrain Driven Blower, which makes it different, in starting in cold
> Wx, from any naturally asperated diesel engine. If you have an
> Exhaust driven Turbocharger, you would be looking at another
> basic cold Wx starting proceedure, altogether. These things are
> just not as generic as some folks think......
>
>
> Me
I said truck, not generator. All the tractors around here are started
with ether as well. -40 is pretty cold.
--
Steve Spence
Dir., Green Trust, http://www.green-trust.org
Contributing Editor, http://www.off-grid.net
http://www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html
| |
|
| In article <hrs9p1hh5pai95mdevnf2lpbs5d590f31i@4ax.com>,
nospam.clare.nce@sny.der.on.ca wrote:
> I've only been a mechanic since 1969, and taught both high school and
> trade level automotive technology for several years.
> Did my apprenticeship in a general garage that was also a farm
> equipment dealership, and worked for a time for an industrial
> equipment shop (case/allis and several other brands)along with 10
> years as service manager at a Toyota dealership.
> Accumulated a TITTLE bit of knowlege about automobiles and other
> motorized and mechanical contraptions.
and all the above makes you an expert on "Ether use in Extreme Low Temp
Starting of Diesel Engines", why? When was the last time you lived in
-40F, and had to start a diesel engine? There are a few in this group
who deal with this on a daily basis, and have for more years than you
have been out of square pants.....
Me
| |
| nospam.clare.nce@sny.der.on.ca 2005-12-07, 12:21 am |
| On Tue, 06 Dec 2005 19:17:41 GMT, Me <Me@shadow.orgs> wrote:
>In article <hrs9p1hh5pai95mdevnf2lpbs5d590f31i@4ax.com>,
> nospam.clare.nce@sny.der.on.ca wrote:
>
>
>and all the above makes you an expert on "Ether use in Extreme Low Temp
>Starting of Diesel Engines", why? When was the last time you lived in
>-40F, and had to start a diesel engine? There are a few in this group
>who deal with this on a daily basis, and have for more years than you
>have been out of square pants.....
>
>
>Me
Not -40 every day, but I HAVE used ether to start MANY deisel engines
at below zero.I grew up and worked in the "snow belt" of southwestern
Ontario, and a LOT of the industrial equipment I worked on was used
extensively for snow removal through the winter months. What are you
taking issue with? I've stated that ether IS used, effectively and
safely, to start deisels in extreme cold.There are situations where
simply blowing it in the intake is not adviseable. I have also stated
it is not adviseable for starting gasoline engines - although if
CAREFULLY used it can aid in starting a cold gasoline engine.
| |
| markvictor 2005-12-14, 6:21 pm |
| Lister has manufactured a full line of air-cooled diesels for many
years
I have used them on Diving compressors and Hydraulic power sources...
In both McMurdo station Antarctica and on the polar ice cap not far
from the pole;
most were hand cranked...not easy to start with or without ether!
| |
| Steve Stone 2005-12-14, 11:21 pm |
| I'm in New York. I have a small inexpensive 5kw 10hp pull start B&S powered
Coleman
Using 5w-30 Mobil 1 in the crankcase helps in the cold weather. Not a total
solution but better than dino oil.
|
|
|
|
|