Alternative Power sources - Life expectancy of Generac 410cc generators

Author

Life expectancy of Generac 410cc generators

philkryder

2005-12-07, 2:21 am

I'm hoping for empircal data and recommendations from someone with
experience running the 410cc Generac engines - specifically at 3600 rpm
on Propane or NG.
This unit is rated at 7500 watts continuous and 13500 surge...
This unit has pressure oil lube and full flow spin on filters.

We will be running a unit on propane for 7 hours per day, 3 days per
week (Wednesday, Saturday and Sunday).
Every week.

We currently run about 4000 watts average load.

Are the output rating overstated?
By how much?

What kind of life can we expect from the unit?

What problems have you seen with yours?

Diesel is out of the question for us.
We MUST run propane - are there other units that you feel might have
lower total cost of ownership?

Thanks
Phil

Bughunter

2005-12-07, 9:21 am

"philkryder" <alt.google@Kryder.com> wrote in message
news:1133936005.364876.258640@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> I'm hoping for empircal data and recommendations from someone with
> experience running the 410cc Generac engines - specifically at 3600 rpm
> on Propane or NG.
> This unit is rated at 7500 watts continuous and 13500 surge...
> This unit has pressure oil lube and full flow spin on filters.
>
> We will be running a unit on propane for 7 hours per day, 3 days per
> week (Wednesday, Saturday and Sunday).
> Every week.
>
> We currently run about 4000 watts average load.
>
> Are the output rating overstated?
> By how much?
>
> What kind of life can we expect from the unit?
>
> What problems have you seen with yours?
>
> Diesel is out of the question for us.
> We MUST run propane - are there other units that you feel might have
> lower total cost of ownership?
>
>
> Thanks
> Phil
>

The general wisdom is that...

A propane or gas powered generator of that size will have a longer life than
a generator with the same engine running on gasoline. Gasoline has a
tendency to wash down the cylinder wall and contaminate the oil.

A unit with pressure lube and filters will have a longer life than the same
engine without design attention to lubrication. That is, unless the pressure
lubrication itself fails to do it's intended job. Sometimes, simpler is
better because it is less prone to failure.

Diesel powered generators have a longer life expectancy than both gasoline
or gaseous powered generators. The fuel itself is a lubricant, and diesel
generators have to be constructed more ruggedly to withstand the higher
power of the detonation of diesel when the cylinder fires.

Slower rotational speed means longer life. Fewer rotations means less wear.

The care in design, quality of materials and precision of manufacture will
also influence the expected lifetime.

How well you maintain the unit, change oil, quality of oil used, filters,
temperature, environment, and load will all influence lifetime. Cold
starting in the dead of winter is hard on an engine.

Higher quality will typically have a higher initial cost, but may have a
lower total cost of ownership. High price is not necessarily an indicator of
high quality. You might not get twice the lifetime from a unit that is twice
the price.

Units built on Tuesdays, Wednesdays and Thursdays will have a longer
lifetime than those built on Mondays and Fridays.

I have three generators. A 10 year old propane fired B&S Vanguard engine. I
have abused it by infrequently changing the oil, low intermittent usage for
11 years and high continuous use for 2 years. I am amazed at how clean the
oil stays. +1 Voltage and speed regulation are not that great (simple
mechanical governor). It is noisy, but reliable and puts out ~5000w as the
nameplate indicates. -0 I have had to clean carbon deposits from the valves
once in those 13 years, and it was a simple task. +1 I was less than
meticulous about oil changes. It has no oil filter. This was a medium priced
unit and it has provided excellent service for the price.

I have owned a Honda EU3000ie for about two years. Voltage and frequency
regulation is always dead on. +1 It gets preference for use because it is
very quiet. +2 My load (A SW4048 inverter) is fussy about voltage and
frequency regulation. Having to deal with gasoline for refills is a pain
compared to propane. -.5 Lack of remote controls is a pain. -.5 Very compact
and portable which is mostly an advantage except hat it is easier for a
thief to walk off with it. -0 The jury is still out on longevity, but this
is my most beloved unit. It might be because I am attracted to Honda red. +1

I got a Generac 5500xl (a supposed long life model with pressure lube and
real spin on filters). +.5 I have only fired up the unit once to test it. It
has very few hours on it and did not look like it had been abused. Had
trouble starting it because the oil pressure switch was defective. -1 It is
very noisy, and vibrates all over the place. -2 This came with a house that
I bought, so I didn't choose it but it did cost $1000 which is about 60%
less than the Honda and about twice it's rated output. I am not impressed
with it but will probably hold on to it as an emergency backup for my
on-grid home. I might consider converting it to propane for my off-grid if
and when my B&S ever dies.The color is close to Honda Red, but for some
reason that I can't put my finger on, it does not inspire the same adoration
as the Honda.

Your load ( 7hrs/day for 3 days per week) probably falls into the category
of "near continuous duty". Longevity will be an issue for that usage
pattern.

You selection of propane of NG was probably a good one for your situation. I
will add to longevity over gasoline, and it is relatively carefree in terms
of refueling, starting and cost of fuel.

A slower speed NG or Propane unit would give you a longer expected lifetime
( at higher cost) if that was one of your priorities.

Slow speed diesel would probably have been the best choice for longevity,
but might not have met your cost constraints or other factors.

I don't necessarily think you made a bad decision. The reasoning behind it
has merit from what I understand of your situation. Others might have chosen
a different path, but that doesn't mean that you took the wrong path.

SQLit

2005-12-07, 5:21 pm

philkryder

2005-12-13, 7:21 pm

I'm still hoping to hear from folks who have had experience with these
engines under moderate load but with relatively high hour usage
rates...

The specific question that we are trying to answer is:
"?Should we run the unit for 800 hours before we sell it or
will we be able to reliably run it for 1000 hours before we replace
it?"

Thanks
Phil

m Ransley

2005-12-13, 8:21 pm

Let compression and oil consumption guide you. Take a reading new and
every 100 hrs. they go alot more than that if not abused. Any unit can
give little or great life. I think you maintain them so how you load it
will be the determining factor. Try Mobil 1, 5-30 and go by hours on the
oil l not color as propane keeps oil looking cleaner but it will in fact
have well used up its chemical package if you go by color on propane.
Mine has to little hrs to comment. I use Mobil 1, 5-30. The only
difference between it and 10- 30 is better cold performance, warm they
are equal.

2005-12-13, 11:21 pm

I used to work on Generac generators as a Sears tech. Although I don't
know which specific model you're refering to, in general their quality
is poor. You would be much better off going with a Honda or Yamaha.

Q

philkryder wrote:
> I'm still hoping to hear from folks who have had experience with these
> engines under moderate load but with relatively high hour usage
> rates...
>
> The specific question that we are trying to answer is:
> "?Should we run the unit for 800 hours before we sell it or
> will we be able to reliably run it for 1000 hours before we replace
> it?"
>
> Thanks
> Phil
>

m Ransley

2005-12-14, 9:21 am

Q, he goes through Honda water cooled at 1000 hrs, geeze maybe he will
get ? hrs

philkryder

2005-12-15, 12:21 am

we're planning on the 5-50 castrol syntec to get the broadest range
possible...

philkryder

2005-12-15, 12:21 am

"...in general their quality ...."

What symptoms did you see?

Did you just replace the entire block?

Our unit is about 15 horsepower with pressure lube and oil filter.

Did Sears have any that large?

philkryder

2005-12-15, 12:21 am

"Let compression and oil consumption guide you...."
I'm concerned that While those data points will show ring wear, they
won't tell us how the bottom end is holding up.

It is amazing to me that there are millions of these engines sold and
very little actual reported experience.

2005-12-15, 1:21 am

No twin cylinder engines back then but they did have an oil pump and
filter. Saw a lot of valve seats fall out of the heads and a few broken
rods. These were all 3600 RPM generators.

philkryder wrote:
> "...in general their quality ...."
>
> What symptoms did you see?
>
> Did you just replace the entire block?
>
> Our unit is about 15 horsepower with pressure lube and oil filter.
>
> Did Sears have any that large?
>

2005-12-15, 2:21 am

Most generators are sold for emergency use and are never used. Often the
buyer will test run them then put them in the garage to set for years.
When they do try to start them up they find the fuel has evaporated and
clogged the carb jets. We found the ones who did use them to power a
remote home construction project or similar failed after a few weeks of
use. I remember 1 fellow wearing out 4 generators and exchanging them
under warranty before he finally went and bought a Honda.

Q

philkryder wrote:
> "Let compression and oil consumption guide you...."
> I'm concerned that While those data points will show ring wear, they
> won't tell us how the bottom end is holding up.
>
> It is amazing to me that there are millions of these engines sold and
> very little actual reported experience.
>

m Ransley

2005-12-15, 8:21 am

You have heard of eperiance, you will be lucky to get 500 hrs if your
water cooled honda only gets 1000, you must be running them to hard.
Get an 1800 rpm cummins, your payback numbers are off. Mobil 1 is
probably the best oil you can get. You just ignore the facts and think
13500 w surge makes it great.

m Ransley

2005-12-15, 10:21 am

Another thing you have a Honda Water cooled, engine , Hondas longest
life design inherantly better than air cooled, especialy the Generac.

philkryder

2005-12-15, 3:21 pm

"Another thing you have a Honda Water cooled, engine , Hondas longest
life design inherantly better than air cooled, especialy the Generac."

But it (the HONDA) is rated at 25% smaller (7500 versus 6000) on
continuous use.

" Mobil 1 is probably the best oil you can get. "

Please show me a reference to provide support for that assertion.
I would gladly switch to Mobil 1, the cost delta is insignificant, but
the 5-50 syntec has the widest viscosity range that I can find. I
considered the 0-40 Mobil 1, but it is harder to find and we have
higher high temps (110F) and are rarely below 40F at startup.

"You just ignore the facts and think 13500 w surge makes it great. "
To which specific facts are you refering?
The Generac also the 25% larger contiuous rating -
someone in one of these forums indicated that they had verified over
7000 watts continuous.

"...your payback numbers are off."
Well, perhaps, but I didn't see any substantive responses to show that,
after I reviewed your comments.

The non-monetary and risk aspects of the Onan are substantial.
As I've said repeatedly, we started with them but they didn't honor
their commitment.
At those prices and with a non-portable machine we need better dealer
support.

We can trade opinions until entropy takes us, but I'm still looking to
hear from someone who has actually RUN these (Generac) engines on
propane for extended hours at moderate (4000 watt) load.

Thanks
Phil

philkryder

2005-12-21, 3:21 am

We obtained another data point on the Hondas last Wednesday.

Our staff indicated that the unit stopped due to low oil pressure
shutdown.

As had happened on at least two other occasions, the problem was
identified at the Honda dealer as a failure of the oil pump gear.
This component had been changed from steel to fibre composite at some
point since our initial Hondas were brought online in the mid-90s.

We were able to borrow back one of the earlier Hondas from the person
to whom we had sold it and continue to run while we wait delivery of
the generac.

Bughunter

2005-12-21, 9:21 pm

"philkryder" <alt.google@Kryder.com> wrote in message
news:1135149106.633203.183840@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> We obtained another data point on the Hondas last Wednesday.
>
> Our staff indicated that the unit stopped due to low oil pressure
> shutdown.
>
>
> As had happened on at least two other occasions, the problem was
> identified at the Honda dealer as a failure of the oil pump gear.
> This component had been changed from steel to fibre composite at some
> point since our initial Hondas were brought online in the mid-90s.
>
> We were able to borrow back one of the earlier Hondas from the person
> to whom we had sold it and continue to run while we wait delivery of
> the generac.
>

Sounds like it would be worth repairing if the Honda is in good shape
otherwise.Presumably the oil shut down shut it down before any damage was
done. Did the Honda dealer give you an estimate to repair it, or even
recommend that it could be repaired?

philkryder

2005-12-21, 10:21 pm

"Did the Honda dealer give you an estimate to repair it, or even
recommend that it could be repaired"

My understanding is that it is being repaired.

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