Alternative Power sources - portable generator question (wattage)

Author

portable generator question (wattage)

Bill

2005-12-28, 8:21 pm

I have a decent sized "costso" gift certificate for Christmas, which I want
to apply towards a portable generator.... I have 2 basic choices in the
store.

Coleman Powermate 5500 Watt ~ $550
Nikota 3500 Watt ~ $279

My basic questions are;

1. What does 3500 vs. 5500 Watts get me? (generally speaking)
2. If 3500 is enough, is Nikota a brand I should buy?

If it matters,

- This will be a common "emergency" use only application of a typical home.
- I have 2 refridgerators, but I could condense it down to 1 if I had to.
- My stove and oven are gas, so I won't need this for those.

Robert Morein

2005-12-28, 10:21 pm

tim

2005-12-28, 11:21 pm

"Robert Morein" <nowhere@nowhere.com> wrote in
news:0cadnQ0xLLrO3y7eRVn-iA@giganews.com:

>
> "Bill" <st6_guy@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:TGFsf.88964$lh.66398@tornado.ohiordc.rr.com...
> The Coleman is known to be a terrible product, not really
> suitable for home backup.
> About the Nikota, I know nothing, but at least it's less money
> down the drain.
>
>
>

Whatch what you're slamming there. Coleman has several grades of
generators available. They have the small 1k-2k portables suitable
for a campground, etc. for a couple hours of lights and radio a
night; they have the 'emergency' grade generators, usually 3-5k at
the arount $500 price point the OP mentioned that are good for
several hours a day for days at a time; and the 'Contractor" grade,
also in 3-6k, that are designed to run 8-10 hrs a day, every day,
with suitable maint. These will be about double the 'emergency'
grade price. I had one of these, a 5kw unit, that I ran about 10
hours a day every day for three weeks while local power company and
I 'discussed' whether or not I was stealing power or not until I
convinced them that they were wrong and got my power reconnected.
Noisy as hell, so out of deference to the neighbors I didn't run it
after 9pm, but it worked like a charm to keep a fridge, a freezer,
an occasional washing machine load, the TV, the computer, several
lights, etc. working great.

Steve Spence

2005-12-28, 11:21 pm

Bill wrote:
> I have a decent sized "costso" gift certificate for Christmas, which I want
> to apply towards a portable generator.... I have 2 basic choices in the
> store.
>
> Coleman Powermate 5500 Watt ~ $550
> Nikota 3500 Watt ~ $279
>
> My basic questions are;
>
> 1. What does 3500 vs. 5500 Watts get me? (generally speaking)
> 2. If 3500 is enough, is Nikota a brand I should buy?
>
> If it matters,
>
> - This will be a common "emergency" use only application of a typical home.
> - I have 2 refridgerators, but I could condense it down to 1 if I had to.
> - My stove and oven are gas, so I won't need this for those.
>
>

Do you have a well pump? You'll need the 5500 ....

I assume your hot water is gas as well?

--
Steve Spence
Dir., Green Trust, http://www.green-trust.org
Contributing Editor, http://www.off-grid.net
http://www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html

Pop

2005-12-29, 12:21 pm

....
: >
: The Coleman is known to be a terrible product, not really
suitable for home
: backup.
: About the Nikota, I know nothing, but at least it's less money
down the
: drain.

How so? My 7 yr old Coleman Powermate 5000, electric start,
no-oil shutdown, 8 hr min runtime per tank, 24 hr run at moderate
load, has given me perfect and 100% reliable service and
aneighbor with the same model but 2 years old with the same
record so far.

I'm not being a smart-XXX, honest: I'm interested in why you say
what you did.

Pop

SQLit

2005-12-29, 1:21 pm

"Bill" <st6_guy@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:TGFsf.88964$lh.66398@tornado.ohiordc.rr.com...
> I have a decent sized "costso" gift certificate for Christmas, which I
want
> to apply towards a portable generator.... I have 2 basic choices in the
> store.
>
> Coleman Powermate 5500 Watt ~ $550
> Nikota 3500 Watt ~ $279
>
> My basic questions are;
>
> 1. What does 3500 vs. 5500 Watts get me? (generally speaking)
> 2. If 3500 is enough, is Nikota a brand I should buy?
>
> If it matters,
>
> - This will be a common "emergency" use only application of a typical
home.
> - I have 2 refridgerators, but I could condense it down to 1 if I had to.
> - My stove and oven are gas, so I won't need this for those.

Please do some more research on generators. Typically the 5500 could be
loaded to 4400 watts.
80% of the rating. I will let you do the math on the other one.

All motors when starting draw up to 6 times their running current. That
means when the refer turn on and demands current. It will want some thing
like 7 amps, WAG. amps times volts is watts 840 in this example.

Running an el-cheapo generator for long periods of time, many tank fulls,
is asking for problems.

I have never heard of Nikota found this page
http://www.rv.net/forum/index.cfm/f...ng/1/page/4.cfm

"" IMHO, DO NOT consider the 3,500 watt NIKOTA generator Pep-Boys sells for
$299.00. It will only handle 1,200 watts on an individual circuit, which is
not enough to sustain an RV air conditioner. ""

Bottom line either generator may give you what you want. Personally I would
not own a Coleman. I used to do warranty work on them and all we did was
replace LOTS of parts. Usually cause people overloaded them. Happy Quanzi

Newby

2005-12-29, 4:21 pm

"SQLit" <sqlit@qwest.net> wrote in message
news:n5Usf.18$fo2.449@news.uswest.net...
[snipped]
> Running an el-cheapo generator for long periods of time, many tank fulls,
> is asking for problems.
>
> I have never heard of Nikota found this page
>
http://www.rv.net/forum/index.cfm/f...ng/1/page/4.cfm
>
> "" IMHO, DO NOT consider the 3,500 watt NIKOTA generator Pep-Boys sells
for
> $299.00. It will only handle 1,200 watts on an individual circuit, which
is
> not enough to sustain an RV air conditioner. ""
>
> Bottom line either generator may give you what you want. Personally I
would
> not own a Coleman. I used to do warranty work on them and all we did was
> replace LOTS of parts. Usually cause people overloaded them. Happy
Quanzi
>
>

You and I are own the same wave length regarding 'overload'; hence my
comment about 'load creap'.

Did you replace generator parts or engine parts?

Regards,
Newby

Did you replace part related to the generator head or the engine?

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2005-12-29, 5:21 pm

In article <Xns973AD9361BDE2timothybilcomcastnet@207.69.189.191>,
tim <timothybil@comcast.net> wrote:

> Whatch what you're slamming there. Coleman has several grades of
> generators available. They have the small 1k-2k portables suitable
> for a campground, etc. for a couple hours of lights and radio a
> night; they have the 'emergency' grade generators, usually 3-5k at
> the arount $500 price point the OP mentioned that are good for
> several hours a day for days at a time; and the 'Contractor" grade,
> also in 3-6k, that are designed to run 8-10 hrs a day, every day,
> with suitable maint. These will be about double the 'emergency'
> grade price. I had one of these, a 5kw unit, that I ran about 10
> hours a day every day for three weeks while local power company and
> I 'discussed' whether or not I was stealing power or not until I
> convinced them that they were wrong and got my power reconnected.
> Noisy as hell, so out of deference to the neighbors I didn't run it
> after 9pm, but it worked like a charm to keep a fridge, a freezer,
> an occasional washing machine load, the TV, the computer, several
> lights, etc. working great.

and none of the above are considered Prime Power Generators. These,
at best, can be considered "Consumer Grade" gensets, with low MTBF
numbers. They will work just fine for those folks that need power
for a few hours, each, of a few days duration, and that is assuming
that the operator is doing the Mandated Maintainance. (50 Hour Oil
Change cycle, new plugs every 200 hours, ect) In this service, just
about any thing will work. When you start thinking about Katrina type
power outages, you are going to find that "Comsumer Grade Equipment"
isn't going to cut it in extended service.

Some of the 1800 Rpm Standby Power Gensets (Kohler, Onan, ect) will deal
with this second type of service with much better reliability, and an
order of magnitude better MTBF. Standby Power Gensets can be
charactorized by having Pressure Lubrication, Oil filters, 4 Pole 1800
Rpm Genends, Safety Shutdown Systems for Low Oil and High HeadTemps,
Real AVR Control Systems, ect, AND 2, to 3, times the cost.

Prime Power Gensets on the otherhand, are designed to provide power 24/7
for the life of the unit, with the required Maintainance Cycles. They
are BIG and heavy, usually diesel driven, and never turn higher than
1800 rpm, and more likely are 1200 or even 900 Rpm units. Usually they
have 200 Hours Oil Change Cycles, 600 Hour Fuel Filter (Primary and
Secondary) Change Cycles, and 1200 Hour Air Filter Cycles. They will
have Low Oil, Oil Temp, Low Water, Water Temp, Overspeed, and Underspeed,
Safety Shutdown Sensers, for unattended operations. MTBF will be a
Publish documentation and usually be in the 20K hours range, with
EnFrame rebuild in the 40K hour range. Prime Power Gensets are
expensive, and usually 3, to 5 times that of a Standby Power Genset of
the same capacity, but as in ALL things, "You get what you pay
for"........

Me

philkryder

2005-12-29, 5:21 pm

Bill --

You don't mention heat - so I am assuming you don't need it or have it
covered "some other way" -
Do you?
Heat is in my opinion more critical than fridges - since you may freeze
pipes and cause related damage.

It sounds like you are committed to a generator -
And with the Costco certificate -
it sounds like you are committed to buying there.
------

If you are comfortable with that choice then, before you buy, consider
getting one of the "kill-a-watt" devices described in another thread on
this forum. About $30.

Then sum the loads that you really need.
Here is page that can help you estimate loads:
http://www.hondapowerequipment.com/genwat.asp

But, the kill-a-watt is cheap to allow you to check for yourself. And
you will find it of use to tell you generator output voltage and
cycles.

You may read that "...starting loads will be UP TO nn times running
load..."
Check the loads yourself.
The multplication factors will likely not be as large for your devices.

Look at "little things" like coffee makers and toasters...
You probably don't want to run them.

Consider defrost cycle heaters on fridges.
Are they more or less than start load?

You can rotate some loads (like the fridge)which will store the "cold".

****
Have you considered what you will do for fuel in an emergency?

Pouring and storing and rotating and transporting and syphoning out of
other vehicles with Gasoline can get old.
And even the most expensive and reliable unit won't run without fuel...
Gasoline doesn't store well.
Are you comfortable with the fire hazard of handling the fuel?

Consider that you can buy TWO of the smaller units for the price of one
larger one...

This has a built in increase in capacity and reliability -
if no single load is a problem...
The downside is storage and load fragmentation and perhaps a different
quality level.

Do you want or need electric start?
That may help you decide.

How fungible is the certificate if you choose to, could you cash it in?
Or use it to buy "emergency supplies" like water and foodstuffs?

Is a generator "necessary" for your survival
or
will it just make the emergency more "pleasant"...
Consider putting the money in the bank and using it to restock the
fridge if you ever need to...

If you don't really "need" it, I would focus on other more critical
survival issues - ?did I mention water?
Small gasoline engines can be a "headache"...

Good Luck!
Phil

Steve Spence

2005-12-29, 7:21 pm

Me wrote:
> In article <Xns973AD9361BDE2timothybilcomcastnet@207.69.189.191>,
> tim <timothybil@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> and none of the above are considered Prime Power Generators. These,
> at best, can be considered "Consumer Grade" gensets, with low MTBF
> numbers. They will work just fine for those folks that need power
> for a few hours, each, of a few days duration, and that is assuming
> that the operator is doing the Mandated Maintainance. (50 Hour Oil
> Change cycle, new plugs every 200 hours, ect) In this service, just
> about any thing will work. When you start thinking about Katrina type
> power outages, you are going to find that "Comsumer Grade Equipment"
> isn't going to cut it in extended service.
>
> Some of the 1800 Rpm Standby Power Gensets (Kohler, Onan, ect) will deal
> with this second type of service with much better reliability, and an
> order of magnitude better MTBF. Standby Power Gensets can be
> charactorized by having Pressure Lubrication, Oil filters, 4 Pole 1800
> Rpm Genends, Safety Shutdown Systems for Low Oil and High HeadTemps,
> Real AVR Control Systems, ect, AND 2, to 3, times the cost.
>
> Prime Power Gensets on the otherhand, are designed to provide power 24/7
> for the life of the unit, with the required Maintainance Cycles. They
> are BIG and heavy, usually diesel driven, and never turn higher than
> 1800 rpm, and more likely are 1200 or even 900 Rpm units. Usually they
> have 200 Hours Oil Change Cycles, 600 Hour Fuel Filter (Primary and
> Secondary) Change Cycles, and 1200 Hour Air Filter Cycles. They will
> have Low Oil, Oil Temp, Low Water, Water Temp, Overspeed, and Underspeed,
> Safety Shutdown Sensers, for unattended operations. MTBF will be a
> Publish documentation and usually be in the 20K hours range, with
> EnFrame rebuild in the 40K hour range. Prime Power Gensets are
> expensive, and usually 3, to 5 times that of a Standby Power Genset of
> the same capacity, but as in ALL things, "You get what you pay
> for"........
>
> Me

Our detroit falls in this third category. We have about 4000 hours on it
ourselves, but we don't know how many hours were on it when we got it,
as the hour meter quit a long time ago ......

--
Steve Spence
Dir., Green Trust, http://www.green-trust.org
Contributing Editor, http://www.off-grid.net
http://www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html

Robert Morein

2005-12-29, 10:21 pm

"Pop" <nobody@devnull.spamcop.net> wrote in message
news:5b-dnf5XJI7klinenZ2dnUVZ_tOdnZ2d@usadatanet.net...
> ...
> : >
> : The Coleman is known to be a terrible product, not really
> suitable for home
> : backup.
> : About the Nikota, I know nothing, but at least it's less money
> down the
> : drain.
>
> How so? My 7 yr old Coleman Powermate 5000, electric start,
> no-oil shutdown, 8 hr min runtime per tank, 24 hr run at moderate
> load, has given me perfect and 100% reliable service and
> aneighbor with the same model but 2 years old with the same
> record so far.
>
> I'm not being a smart-XXX, honest: I'm interested in why you say
> what you did.
>
> Pop
>
When I went into Home Depot to look at that generator, it did not advertise
an iron sleeve. If an engine does not have an iron sleeve, it is basically a
lawnmower engine. These engines are specifically designed for low hours use,
because the aluminum bore will wear. I have heard the figure of 400 hours
life in connection with this general type of engine.

People with lawnmowers generally don't notice or care when they have to up
the throttle a bit to keep from stalling. But in the case of a generator,
this makes for inevitable loss of efficiency. You started out with a 5 kw
generator. A hundred hours later, you had a 4.5 kw generator. Four hundred
hours later, you have a 3.5 kw generator, but you're burning the same gas
required to make the early 5 kw.

Honda and Yamaha make engines in both classes. A commercial grade motor
looks the same as a lawnmower engine on the outside. But on the inside, it
has a sleeve.

Sylvan Morein

2005-12-30, 2:21 am

"tim" <timothybil@comcast.net> wrote in article
Xns973AD9361BDE2timothybilcomcastnet@207.69.189.191, :

> Whatch what you're slamming there. Coleman has several grades of
> generators available.

You're of course right, Tim. You've however just discovered the 52 year old
unemployed loser son I have. He's lived in the same room in the same house
since a child. A complete and utter failure. He spends all his time
trolling on the internet trying to show a diminishing audience "he's a
genius". What we called in my day an "XXXXXXX know-it-all".

You've discovered what my wife and I have known for years. Sorry for the
inconvenience.

Facts about my Son, Robert Morein

Dr. Sylvan Morein, DDS
--

Bob Morein History
--
http://www.ledger-enquirer.com/mld/...ews/4853918.htm

> Doctoral student takes intellectual property case to Supreme Court
> By L. STUART DITZEN
> Philadelphia Inquirer
>
> PHILADELPHIA -Even the professors who dismissed him from a doctoral program
> at Drexel university agreed that Robert Morein was uncommonly smart.
>
> They apparently didn't realize that he was uncommonly stubborn too - so much
> so that he would mount a court fight all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court
> to challenge his dismissal.

The Supremes have already rejected this appeal, btw.
>
> "It's a personality trait I have - I'm a tenacious guy," said Morein, a
> pleasantly eccentric man regarded by friends as an inventive genius. "And we
> do come to a larger issue here."

An "inventive genius" that has never invented anything. And hardly
"pleasantly" eccentric.

> A five-year legal battle between this unusual ex-student and one of
> Philadelphia's premier educational institutions has gone largely unnoticed
> by the media and the public.

Because no one gives a shit about a 52 year old loser.
>
> But it has been the subject of much attention in academia.
>
> Drexel says it dismissed Morein in 1995 because he failed, after eight
> years, to complete a thesis required for a doctorate in electrical and
> computer engineering.

Not to mention the 12 years it took him to get thru high school!
BWAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

>
> Morein, 50, of Dresher, Pa., contends that he was dismissed only after his
> thesis adviser "appropriated" an innovative idea Morein had developed in a
> rarefied area of thought called "estimation theory" and arranged to have it
> patented.

A contention rejected by three courts. From a 50 YEAR OLD that has
done NOTHING PRODUCTIVE with his life.

> In February 2000, Philadelphia Common Pleas Court Judge Esther R. Sylvester
> ruled that Morein's adviser indeed had taken his idea.

An idea that was worth nothing, because it didn't work. Just like
Robert Morein, who has never worked a day in his life.

> Sylvester held that Morein had been unjustly dismissed and she ordered
> Drexel to reinstate him or refund his tuition.

Funnily enough, Drexel AGREED to reinstate Morein, who rejected the
offer because he knew he was and IS a failed loser. Spending daddy's
money to cover up his lack of productivity.
>
> That brought roars of protest from the lions of academia. There is a long
> tradition in America of noninterference by the courts in academic decisions.
>
> Backed by every major university in Pennsylvania and organizations
> representing thousands of others around the country, Drexel appealed to the
> state Superior Court.
>
> The appellate court, by a 2-1 vote, reversed Sylvester in June 2001 and
> restored the status quo. Morein was, once again, out at Drexel. And the
> time-honored axiom that courts ought to keep their noses out of academic
> affairs was reasserted.
>
> The state Supreme Court declined to review the case and, in an ordinary
> litigation, that would have been the end of it.
>
> But Morein, in a quixotic gesture that goes steeply against the odds, has
> asked the highest court in the land to give him a hearing.

Daddy throws more money down the crapper.

> His attorney, Faye Riva Cohen, said the Supreme Court appeal is important
> even if it fails because it raises the issue of whether a university has a
> right to lay claim to a student's ideas - or intellectual property - without
> compensation.
>
> "Any time you are in a Ph.D. program, you are a serf, you are a slave," said
> Cohen. Morein "is concerned not only for himself. He feels that what
> happened to him is pretty common."

It's called HIGHER EDUCATION, honey. The students aren't in charge,
the university and PROFESSORS are.

> Drexel's attorney, Neil J. Hamburg, called Morein's appeal - and his claim
> that his idea was stolen - "preposterous."
>
> "I will eat my shoe if the Supreme Court hears this case," declared Hamburg.
> "We're not even going to file a response. He is a brilliant guy, but his
> intelligence should be used for the advancement of society rather than
> pursuing self-destructive litigation."

No shit sherlock.

> The litigation began in 1997, when Morein sued Drexel claiming that a
> committee of professors had dumped him after he accused his faculty adviser,
> Paul Kalata, of appropriating his idea.
>
> His concept was considered to have potential value for businesses in
> minutely measuring the internal functions of machines, industrial processes
> and electronic systems.
>
> The field of "estimation theory" is one in which scientists attempt to
> calculate what they cannot plainly observe, such as the inside workings of a
> nuclear plant or a computer.

My estimation theory? There is NO brain at work inside the head of
Robert Morein, only sawdust.

>
> Prior to Morein's dismissal, Drexel looked into his complaint against Kalata
> and concluded that the associate professor had done nothing wrong. Kalata,
> through a university lawyer, declined to comment.
>
> At a nonjury trial before Sylvester in 1999, Morein testified that Kalata in
> 1990 had posed a technical problem for him to study for his thesis. It
> related to estimation theory.
>
> Kalata, who did not appear at the trial, said in a 1998 deposition that a
> Cherry Hill company for which he was a paid consultant, K-Tron
> International, had asked him to develop an alternate estimation method for
> it. The company manufactures bulk material feeders and conveyors used in
> industrial processes.
>
> Morein testified that, after much study, he experienced "a flash of
> inspiration" and came up with a novel mathematical concept to address the
> problem Kalata had presented.
>
> Without his knowledge, Morein said, Kalata shared the idea with K-Tron.
>
> K-Tron then applied for a patent, listing Kalata and Morein as co-inventors.
>
> Morein said he agreed "under duress" to the arrangement, but felt "locked
> into a highly disadvantageous situation." As a result, he testified, he
> became alienated from Kalata.
>
> As events unfolded, Kalata signed over his interest in the patent to K-Tron.
> The company never capitalized on the technology and eventually allowed the
> patent to lapse. No one made any money from it.

Because it was bogus. Even Kalata was mortified that he was a victim
of this SCAMSTER, Robert Morein.

> In 1991, Morein went to the head of Drexel's electrical engineering
> department, accused Kalata of appropriating his intellectual property, and
> asked for a new faculty adviser.

The staff at Drexel laughed wildly at the ignorance of Robert Morein.

> He didn't get one. Instead, a committee of four professors, including
> Kalata, was formed to oversee Morein's thesis work.
>
> Four years later, the committee dismissed him, saying he had failed to
> complete his thesis.

So Morein fucks up his first couple years, gets new faculty advisers
(a TEAM), and then fucks up again! Brilliant!

> Morein claimed that the committee intentionally had undermined him.

Morein makes LOTS of claims that are nonsense. One look thru the
usenet proves it.

> Judge Sylvester agreed. In her ruling, Sylvester wrote: "It is this court's
> opinion that the defendants were motivated by bad faith and ill will."

So much for political machine judges.
>
> The U.S. Supreme Court receives 7,000 appeals a year and agrees to hear only
> about 100 of them.
>
> Hamburg, Drexel's attorney, is betting the high court will reject Morein's
> appeal out of hand because its focal point - concerning a student's right to
> intellectual property - was not central to the litigation in the
> Pennsylvania courts.

> Morein said he understands it's a long shot, but he feels he must pursue it.

Just like all the failed "causes" Morein pursues. Heck, he's been
chasing another "Brian McCarthy" for years and yet has ZERO impact on
anything.

Failure. Look it up in Websters. You'll see a picture of Robert
Morein. The poster boy for SCAMMING LOSERS.

>
> "I had to seek closure," he said.
>
> Without a doctorate, he said, he has been unable to pursue a career he had
> hoped would lead him into research on artificial intelligence.

Who better to tell us about "artificial intelligence".
BWAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

>
> As it is, Morein lives at home with his father and makes a modest income
> from stock investments. He has written a film script that he is trying to
> make into a movie. And in the basement of his father's home he is working on
> an invention, an industrial pump so powerful it could cut steel with a
> bulletlike stream of water.

FAILED STUDENT
FAILED MOVIE MAKER
FAILED SCREENWRITER
FAILED INVESTOR
FAILED DRIVER
FAILED SON
FAILED PARENTS
FAILED INVENTOR
FAILED PLAINTIFF
FAILED HOMOSEXUAL
FAILED HUMAN
FAILED
FAILED

> But none of it is what he had imagined for himself.
>
> "I don't really have a replacement career," Morein said. "It's a very
> gnawing thing.

Robert Morein

2005-12-30, 3:21 pm

"Sylvan Morein" <spankmyson@afailure.com> wrote in message
news:BFDB0B66.25321%spankmyson@fe03.buzzardnews.com...
> "tim" <timothybil@comcast.net> wrote in article
> Xns973AD9361BDE2timothybilcomcastnet@207.69.189.191, :
>
Sorry, guys, this is a forgery.

SolarFlare

2005-12-31, 8:21 pm

I don't know! I always thought you might be a
son-of-a-XXXXX.

LOL
"Robert Morein" <nowhere@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:IaudnR7OvvgGHSjeRVn-tA@giganews.com...
>
> "Sylvan Morein" <spankmyson@afailure.com> wrote in
message
>
news:BFDB0B66.25321%spankmyson@fe03.buzzardnews.com...
Xns973AD9361BDE2timothybilcomcastnet@207.69.189.191, :[color=darkred]
> Sorry, guys, this is a forgery.
>
>

LinkBot