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Home > Archive > Alternative Power sources > December 2005 > Sun Frost RF16 vs. Crystal Cold 16
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Sun Frost RF16 vs. Crystal Cold 16
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| I'm looking for advice on buying a new fridge. Our current fridge, a
micro sized propane unit extracted from an RV, just isn't working for
our family of 5. I'm inclined to get the Crystal Cold unit because it
is propane and we're already set up for it, and its cheaper than the
Sun Frost. But it does require additional fuel costs and I'm then
dependent on the propane guy. At .29 gal/day and $2.00/gal, it would
take about 3 years to catch up to the Sun Frost though. On the other
hand, even though it is more expensive, the Sun Frost is appealing
because we are already wired for 12V and have (will have, as soon as I
replace the batteries) the capacity to run it. It also has a better
warranty.
Should I also be considering a high efficience AC unit?
Are there any decent sized (16CF+) combination DC//Propane fridges
available? Or AC/Propane for that matter.
-Jerry
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| Oops, should have been Crystal Cold 15.
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| Jerry,
One important thing to consider in your decision is all heat that's
generated by a propane refrigerator helps heat your home. If you have
a long heating season refrigeration is almost free.
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| Eric Sears 2005-12-30, 6:21 am |
| On 29 Dec 2005 16:16:46 -0800, "Jerry" <jerryhargrove@gmail.com>
wrote:
>I'm looking for advice on buying a new fridge. Our current fridge, a
>micro sized propane unit extracted from an RV, just isn't working for
>our family of 5. I'm inclined to get the Crystal Cold unit because it
>is propane and we're already set up for it, and its cheaper than the
>Sun Frost. But it does require additional fuel costs and I'm then
>dependent on the propane guy. At .29 gal/day and $2.00/gal, it would
>take about 3 years to catch up to the Sun Frost though. On the other
>hand, even though it is more expensive, the Sun Frost is appealing
>because we are already wired for 12V and have (will have, as soon as I
>replace the batteries) the capacity to run it. It also has a better
>warranty.
>
>Should I also be considering a high efficience AC unit?
>
>Are there any decent sized (16CF+) combination DC//Propane fridges
>available? Or AC/Propane for that matter.
>
>-Jerry
I have been through this exercise a number of times, firstly at our
holiday home where we run hydro (approx 200 watts input max), and also
at our city home, where we are adding appox 1400 watts of solar to our
"grid-based" home.
Our holiday home is still based on a 12v system, and we began with a
small RV-type gas/12v/240v fridge. Two problems (apart from gas usage
cost if you use that, which we didn't) - 1) uses about three times as
much power as a similar sized compressor fridge (well maybe twice
after considering losses in MSW inverter and in less efficiency of
motor) and 2) they have a habit of "stopping" after some years of use
on gas - possibly to do with soot in the chimney?
So we changed to a small "bar fridge", running on an 800 watt MSW
inverter and had power left over for other things.
For our "city" home, I wanted to get a larger fridge/freezer that
would run on my 1500 watt MSW inverter. (apart from cost, many
sinewave inverters use more power when running with very light load).
Unfortunately it seems almost impossible to find a fridge today that
does not have some electronics running all the time - which means that
the inverter cannot go into standby mode.
Also, I don't know how some modern fridges may perform (or fail!!) if
run on MSW inverter.
I would really like to run my fridge on the solar system, and we have
now just bought one (today - not yet delivered), which uses about 1Kwh
a day. Initially I will run it on grid power, but I will consider
buying the smallest possible sinewave inverter that would run it, and
leave the inverter on 24/7.
FWIW I have seen some less than complimentary reports about the
Sunfrost (search the web and you might find them), though I can't
speak from experience.
The best 12v full-size fridge/freezers seem to be made in Aussie, but
even those are not available in NZ! That's what I would go for if
available - less losses in my opinion.
Eric
>
| |
| Bruce in Alaska 2005-12-30, 4:21 pm |
| In article <1135903427.514230.154160@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
"Jake" <ggsams@ruraltel.net> wrote:
> Jerry,
> One important thing to consider in your decision is all heat that's
> generated by a propane refrigerator helps heat your home. If you have
> a long heating season refrigeration is almost free.
>
Only if you vent the output of the Propane fired burner into your living
space. This is not advised, by any of the twoway or threeway Refer Unit
OEM's that I researched, when looking for a refer for my cabin. Bad
idea.
Bruce in alaska
--
add a <2> before @
| |
| Dave Hinz 2005-12-30, 4:21 pm |
| On Fri, 30 Dec 2005 19:37:38 GMT, Bruce in Alaska <bruceg@btpost.net> wrote:
> In article <1135903427.514230.154160@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> "Jake" <ggsams@ruraltel.net> wrote:
>
>
> Only if you vent the output of the Propane fired burner into your living
> space. This is not advised, by any of the twoway or threeway Refer Unit
> OEM's that I researched, when looking for a refer for my cabin. Bad
> idea.
Then why isn't it a problem with a propane-fired oven or stove?
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| What did you end up buying?
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| WisJim 2005-12-30, 5:21 pm |
| We replced our LP Servel with a Sunfrost 12 cu ft unit quite a few
years ago. We figured it would pay for itself in savings in LP, and
that it would improve the air quality of our super-insulated home. I
haven't had any major problems with the SunFrost in the 20 or so years
we have had it, other than electronic controller failure. The newer
ones have improved hinges, door shelves, inside lights, etc., that are
likely going to be better in the long run- for example, ours didn't
have stainless steel door hinges, so they rusted a bit, but the new
ones have stainless hinges. I did manage to break one of the glass
shelves through awkwardness and bad luck, but it was easily replaced at
the local glass place.
Most gas refrigs don't have any easy wasy to vent combustion products
outside of the living space, and venting one outside could upset the
combustion in the unit.
| |
|
| Bruce in Alaska wrote:
> In article <1135903427.514230.154160@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> "Jake" <ggsams@ruraltel.net> wrote:
>
>
> Only if you vent the output of the Propane fired burner into your living
> space. This is not advised, by any of the twoway or threeway Refer Unit
> OEM's that I researched, when looking for a refer for my cabin. Bad
> idea.
>
> Bruce in alaska
> --
Bruce,
I've never seen a gas refrigerator that was made for household use that
was capable of being vented outside. They ALL exhaust into the living
area. Even if they didn't, most of the heat that's generated from the
burner is exchanged into the cooling system and then conducted through
the coils into the living area. Either way it's a win win.
| |
| Charles Foot 2005-12-30, 7:21 pm |
| Eric Sears wrote:
> On 29 Dec 2005 16:16:46 -0800, "Jerry" <jerryhargrove@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> I have been through this exercise a number of times, firstly at our
> holiday home where we run hydro (approx 200 watts input max), and also
> at our city home, where we are adding appox 1400 watts of solar to our
> "grid-based" home.
> Our holiday home is still based on a 12v system, and we began with a
> small RV-type gas/12v/240v fridge. Two problems (apart from gas usage
> cost if you use that, which we didn't) - 1) uses about three times as
> much power as a similar sized compressor fridge (well maybe twice
> after considering losses in MSW inverter and in less efficiency of
> motor) and 2) they have a habit of "stopping" after some years of use
> on gas - possibly to do with soot in the chimney?
> So we changed to a small "bar fridge", running on an 800 watt MSW
> inverter and had power left over for other things.
>
> For our "city" home, I wanted to get a larger fridge/freezer that
> would run on my 1500 watt MSW inverter. (apart from cost, many
> sinewave inverters use more power when running with very light load).
>
> Unfortunately it seems almost impossible to find a fridge today that
> does not have some electronics running all the time - which means that
> the inverter cannot go into standby mode.
> Also, I don't know how some modern fridges may perform (or fail!!) if
> run on MSW inverter.
>
> I would really like to run my fridge on the solar system, and we have
> now just bought one (today - not yet delivered), which uses about 1Kwh
> a day. Initially I will run it on grid power, but I will consider
> buying the smallest possible sinewave inverter that would run it, and
> leave the inverter on 24/7.
>
> FWIW I have seen some less than complimentary reports about the
> Sunfrost (search the web and you might find them), though I can't
> speak from experience.
> The best 12v full-size fridge/freezers seem to be made in Aussie, but
> even those are not available in NZ! That's what I would go for if
> available - less losses in my opinion.
>
> Eric
>
>
>
Fridges and freezers have been a bit of an issue with us recently. We
had an F&P 130 litre chest freezer which recently died. The cost of
repair plus shipping it to and from the mainland made it uneconomical to
repair. We wound up buying a 170 litre Aussie-made freezer for $700. It
is dramatically more economical than the old unit at 435 kWh/year. We
have it plugged into a timer, so it gets 3 X 2.25 hour on-cycles during
the day and is off during the night.
We also have a tiny Sibir fridge which runs off 240v a.c., 12v d.c., or
gas. It is a real energy hog... with no compressor, it simply replaces
the gas flame with a heating coil when running on electricity. In spite
of its small size it uses many times the power of the big freezer so
we've simply stopped using it. We've made a styrofoam insert with a lid
on it which fits inside the freezer and this is now our refrigerator.
Works well.
Our power system is pretty modest and the inverter is an ancient 2.2 KW
MSW Trace (one of the old black ones). Happily the freezer runs just
fine on it.
Cheers from Great Barrier Island.....and Happy New Year one and all
| |
| Anthony Matonak 2005-12-30, 8:21 pm |
| Dave Hinz wrote:
> On Fri, 30 Dec 2005 19:37:38 GMT, Bruce in Alaska <bruceg@btpost.net> wrote:
....
>
> Then why isn't it a problem with a propane-fired oven or stove?
It is a problem as you'll note from any of the myriad of deaths
caused by people using their unvented gas stove as a space heater.
It's not as much of a problem if you only spend 15 or 20 minutes
cooking a couple of times a day in a slightly drafty house. Even
so, it always good practice to crack a window a bit in the kitchen
when cooking with unvented gas appliances.
Anthony
| |
| Derek Broughton 2005-12-31, 12:21 pm |
| Jake wrote:
> I've never seen a gas refrigerator that was made for household use that
> was capable of being vented outside. _They ALL exhaust into the living
> area. _
They don't. I own a Consul "Saf-T-Vent" model. It vents outside. I have
never seen a gas refrigerator that was capable of venting _inside_
(actually, I've seen very few gas-powered refrigerators - but my
statement's obviously as valid as yours).
> Even if they didn't, most of the heat that's generated from the
> burner is exchanged into the cooling system and then conducted through
> the coils into the living area. _Either way it's a win win.
There's certainly heat conducted into my kitchen, but I rather doubt it's
"most of the heat" - I'm not sure how I could test it.
--
derek
| |
| Steve Spence 2005-12-31, 12:21 pm |
| Derek Broughton wrote:
> Jake wrote:
>
>
>
>
> They don't. I own a Consul "Saf-T-Vent" model. It vents outside. I have
> never seen a gas refrigerator that was capable of venting _inside_
> (actually, I've seen very few gas-powered refrigerators - but my
> statement's obviously as valid as yours).
>
>
>
>
> There's certainly heat conducted into my kitchen, but I rather doubt it's
> "most of the heat" - I'm not sure how I could test it.
My Consul is not designed for exterior venting. Neither is my propane
stove, or propane wall lights ....
--
Steve Spence
Dir., Green Trust, http://www.green-trust.org
Contributing Editor, http://www.off-grid.net
http://www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html
| |
| Bruce in Alaska 2005-12-31, 2:21 pm |
| In article <1135983225.017391.277720@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
"Jake" <ggsams@ruraltel.net> wrote:
> Bruce in Alaska wrote:
>
> Bruce,
> I've never seen a gas refrigerator that was made for household use that
> was capable of being vented outside. They ALL exhaust into the living
> area. Even if they didn't, most of the heat that's generated from the
> burner is exchanged into the cooling system and then conducted through
> the coils into the living area. Either way it's a win win.
>
Not widely read are you.....better go look at all the RV type threeways..
NorCold, Domestic, ect. They all state specifically not to vent the
burners into the living space, and are designed to seal the face of the
unit to the living space and the rest of the encloser is to be vented
to the outside. Your contention that all these burners transfer most of
their energy into the cooling system is preposterious...better go back
and check the spec's again if the OEM's even publish that spec...if you
even came close to 50/50 efficency you would be very lucky, and the
engineering world would be beating down your door, as the greatest
genious in thermodynamic history.
Bruce in alaska
--
add a <2> before @
| |
| Steve Spence 2005-12-31, 2:21 pm |
| Bruce in Alaska wrote:
> In article <1135983225.017391.277720@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
> "Jake" <ggsams@ruraltel.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Not widely read are you.....better go look at all the RV type threeways..
> NorCold, Domestic, ect. They all state specifically not to vent the
> burners into the living space, and are designed to seal the face of the
> unit to the living space and the rest of the encloser is to be vented
> to the outside. Your contention that all these burners transfer most of
> their energy into the cooling system is preposterious...better go back
> and check the spec's again if the OEM's even publish that spec...if you
> even came close to 50/50 efficency you would be very lucky, and the
> engineering world would be beating down your door, as the greatest
> genious in thermodynamic history.
>
> Bruce in alaska
household use is not rv. The household units typically have no outside
venting capability. it's just a pilot light, same as on a propane stove,
which is unvented as well.
--
Steve Spence
Dir., Green Trust, http://www.green-trust.org
Contributing Editor, http://www.off-grid.net
http://www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html
| |
| Derek Broughton 2005-12-31, 3:21 pm |
| Steve Spence wrote:
> Derek Broughton wrote:
>
> My Consul is not designed for exterior venting.
>
Sure, but Jake insists there's no such thing as a exterior vent fridge, and
mine not only does that but they gave it a model name to make sure you
realize it has such a good feature.
--
derek
| |
|
| I think everyone would agree that if you have any gas appliances
whether vented outside or not, it's a very important to use a good
quality carbon monoxide detector 100% of the time. I do and with my
gas refrigerator I never see anything over 0 ppm.
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