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Home Power Setup Evolution
|
|
| Too_Many_Tools 2005-06-16, 2:22 pm |
| I am currently considering implementing an alternative home power
setup.
Knowing how systems evolve over time to changing needs and newer
technology, I would like to hear from you how your system has changed
over the years. Hearing of the changes in wiring, newer technology,
better/bigger batteries, etc. have affected you and your installation
will hopefully give me some valuable insight as to how to plan for
growth and future improvements. It's the old "If I had known then what
I know now" approach to design. ;< )
Thanks for all suggestions/comments and links to pictures would be
great.
Thanks
TMT
| |
|
| On 13 Jun 2005 09:17:38 -0700, "Too_Many_Tools"
<too_many_tools@yahoo.com> wrote:
quote:
>I am currently considering implementing an alternative home power
>setup.
>
>Knowing how systems evolve over time to changing needs and newer
>technology, I would like to hear from you how your system has changed
>over the years. Hearing of the changes in wiring, newer technology,
>better/bigger batteries, etc. have affected you and your installation
>will hopefully give me some valuable insight as to how to plan for
>growth and future improvements. It's the old "If I had known then what
>I know now" approach to design. ;< )
>
>Thanks for all suggestions/comments and links to pictures would be
>great.
>
>Thanks
>
>TMT
Our setup is now nearly ten years old. Our original plan was for 1200W
PV, 3 or 4 300W wind generators, 2 4000W inverters, 29kWh battery, and
an 8kW welder-generator for backup. The multiple small wind generator
idea didn't work out, so that ended up being one 300W unit, and one
1000W unit. A third inverter (500W) was added so that it could supply
power without glitches to sensitive stuff when the main units were in
charging mode. Another 800W of PV was added, and a 2000W DC generator
was custom built for backup as the large unit was overkill. All of the
original equipment is still in service and doing well, including the
batteries. Repairs I'd count as major include the small wind
generator, two of the tracker controllers, one of the main inverters.
Minor repairs have been done to the small inverter, the system
monitor, and the large wind generator.
Additions to the original planned use included 4DTV satellite
receiver, full-time Ethernet radio/phone, and a DVR. Those 3 boxes
all draw considerable juice 24-7. We also have 3 computers instead of
the one planned, and use them many more hours per day than we could
have imagined twelve years ago when we first decided to move off-grid.
LCD monitors helped reduce the computer energy use, so you might call
those subtractions from the additions. ;-) Major shop equipment was
added as well, but that doesn't change our use much since one can only
use a single piece of equipment at a time anyway. Despite all the
additions, backup generator time is much less than planned. It's often
zero for many months straight thanks to wind power, PV tracking, and
scheduling discretionary loads for periods when the charge regulators
would otherwise have been limiting input. That's a case where
increased consumption results in increased production.
Things we'd do differently if the hardware had been available ten
years ago - all PV on a single tracker, and MPPT charge control.
Link to photos sent via email.
Wayne
| |
| Loren Amelang 2005-06-16, 2:22 pm |
| On 13 Jun 2005 09:17:38 -0700, "Too_Many_Tools"
<too_many_tools@yahoo.com> wrote:
quote:
>I am currently considering implementing an alternative home power
>setup.
>
>Knowing how systems evolve over time to changing needs and newer
>technology, I would like to hear from you how your system has changed
>over the years.
I started thirty years ago, with one room, 12V, and an extra car
battery that rode along in my truck on trips to town. With the old
mechanical voltage regulators, it was easy to crank up the charging
rate to fill both batteries during the drive. My first inverter was
from Heathkit, and had a switch to run from 6V or 12V. About 70W,
square wave, random frequency.
The first big improvement was six 30W PV panels. Then I drilled a deep
well and put in a windmill-style reciprocating pump with a 24V DC
motor. The panels got a switch to select 24V directly to the pump or
12V to the battery.
As the Home Power scene developed, things we hadn't dared imagine
became commonplace. Inverters with load sensing, frequency control,
sinewave output, and idle current low enough to be left on full time
have transformed home power from a tinkerer's toy to mainstream
technology. There is no longer much difference between a new
self-powered home and a grid powered home.
The lessons of my evolutionary process are probably not very relevant
to your new system. There is no longer a need to keep batteries close
to the house to run large DC loads. Almost all large loads have
migrated to AC, so my next major revision will be to move batteries
and inverter to a "power shed". I've been glad many times that all my
wiring was "home runs" to a wiring closet and all was to AC spec, even
the originally DC circuits. It has been relatively easy to convert
more and more lines to AC.
The feature I've wished for most has been a system of large conduits
connecting the wiring closet with the crawl space and other utility
areas. Occasionally it would be nice to add power circuits, but mostly
it has been coax for various antennas, and then for satellite, and
CAT5 for networking. The latest need for more and more cables is for
centralized computer control of all the pumps and valves and actuators
that formerly had separate, stupidly independent controllers.
For a new system, I'd say make your house as conventional as possible.
Keep all the unconventional stuff in your power shed, keep the layout
very open, and leave lots of space for adding and revising the
components and wiring. Maybe a good rule would be to design enough
power shed space to build a parallel system alongside your original
one. Be sure to run a large conduit from the power shed to a central
location in your house, so you can run remote control wiring and
computer circuits between them.
Loren
| |
| Bughunter 2005-06-16, 2:22 pm |
|
"Too_Many_Tools" <too_many_tools@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1118679458.411608.270380@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
quote:
>I am currently considering implementing an alternative home power
> setup.
>
> Knowing how systems evolve over time to changing needs and newer
> technology, I would like to hear from you how your system has changed
> over the years. Hearing of the changes in wiring, newer technology,
> better/bigger batteries, etc. have affected you and your installation
> will hopefully give me some valuable insight as to how to plan for
> growth and future improvements. It's the old "If I had known then what
> I know now" approach to design. ;< )
>
> Thanks for all suggestions/comments and links to pictures would be
> great.
>
> Thanks
>
> TMT
>
evolution of my system... still evolving...
http://rickryen.isa-geek.org:8000/L...Power/Power.htm
| |
| Vaughn 2005-06-16, 2:22 pm |
|
"Too_Many_Tools" <too_many_tools@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1118679458.411608.270380@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
quote:
>I am currently considering implementing an alternative home power
> setup.
>
> Knowing how systems evolve over time to changing needs and newer
> technology, I would like to hear from you how your system has changed
> over the years. Hearing of the changes in wiring, newer technology,
> better/bigger batteries, etc. have affected you and your installation
> will hopefully give me some valuable insight as to how to plan for
> growth and future improvements. It's the old "If I had known then what
> I know now" approach to design. ;< )
I have a system that is tiny compared to most here. It is a 100-watt PV
system with the rather limited objectives of keeping by generator battery
charged and powering my yard lighting. I have two mis-matched solar panels, a
Trace Controller, deep-cycle batteries and 12-volt compact-fluorescent lamps
with outdoor Malibu-light wiring. I have had the system for (perhaps) three
years and maintenance is limited to an annual battery check. I can say that it
has been 100% successful.
The panels usually have the battery 100% charged well before noon, so I
find myself thinking about additional 12-volt applications around the house,
perhaps some storm-proof inside lighting with a few more of those 12-volt CFs.
If you would tell us bit more about what you are trying to accomplish, a
vague idea of your climate, and perhaps a few other details, we could probably
be a lot more help.
Vaughn
| |
| Charles Foot 2005-06-16, 2:22 pm |
| Too_Many_Tools wrote:
quote:
> I am currently considering implementing an alternative home power
> setup.
>
> Knowing how systems evolve over time to changing needs and newer
> technology, I would like to hear from you how your system has changed
> over the years. Hearing of the changes in wiring, newer technology,
> better/bigger batteries, etc. have affected you and your installation
> will hopefully give me some valuable insight as to how to plan for
> growth and future improvements. It's the old "If I had known then what
> I know now" approach to design. ;< )
>
> Thanks for all suggestions/comments and links to pictures would be
> great.
>
> Thanks
>
> TMT
>
Our home on Great Barrier Island (where there is no grid power)
originally came with an old Lister diesel engine driving a (few decades
newer) 4.5 kVA alternator.... that was it! About 10 years ago the system
was upgraded with the addition of a 24v 200 amp battery bank, 360w of PV
panels and a 2.6kVA Trace inverter/charger. The Lister engine had its
70th birthday last month and still gets daily usage. The only major
maintenance came recently when I built a new concrete pad and remounted
the engine and while I was at it, re-roofed and re-clad the generator
shed. Also replaced an oil seal in the engine. Prior to that the engine
has had 2 new head gaskets in its lifetime. The Trace inverter was
replaced a few months ago after a meltdown caused by the cooling fan
malfunctioning. We run all the normal household things - washing
machine, TV, stereo,up to 4 computers, expresso machine, microwave,
small rotisserie oven, lighting, fridge, freezer, etc. As the engine is
normally run for an hour or so in the morning, we do our laundry then as
well as pumping water up to the main tank up the hill behind the house,
and any other relatively heavy power usage such as running the mulcher,
electric weed eater, etc. The fridge and freezer are on a timer so that
they get 3 on-cycles during the day and are off at night. The PV panels
are not on a tracker, but their angle is optimised for winter.
For cooking and water heating we use bottled gas, but we also have a
wood stove with a wetback which we use frequently in winter as it warms
the whole house nicely. We have 24v dc lighting as well as the 240v ac.
On the ac circuit we use CF lights, which are okay but not very
comfortable to read by. We use LCD monitors on the computers.
We are planning on adding a lot more solar panels and increasing the
size of the battery bank and probably solar water heating as funds
permit, but for now the system is adequate, reliable, and
low-maintenance. My maintenance schedule consists of about half an hour
on Saturdays checking the batteries for water level and the engine for
oil. Oh, nearly forgot, I replace the brushes in the alternator about
every 5 or six years.
Pics of the engine are at
http://www.thebarrier.net/modules.p...=10&cat=0&pos=2
Pics of the house are at
http://www.thebarrier.net/realestat....php?cat=2&de=2
| |
| Too_Many_Tools 2005-06-16, 2:22 pm |
| Thanks for all replys so far.
A few more questions.....
Battery storage and handling....how did you do it? Racks, shelves, on
the floor?
Distribution center....rack mounted, nailed on the wall?
Control/monitoring...none, timers, amp/volt meters, computer
controlled?
AC vs. DC....as inverters get better, is it worth running separate DC
branches?
Setup...where do you keep your installation...in a closet, basement,
garage, separate building...all have pros and cons.
Thanks again for offering your comments.
TMT
| |
| Bughunter 2005-06-16, 2:22 pm |
|
"Too_Many_Tools" <too_many_tools@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1118770206.871460.112110@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
quote:
> Thanks for all replys so far.
>
> A few more questions.....
>
> Battery storage and handling....how did you do it? Racks, shelves, on
> the floor?
I build a battery box made of OSB plywood, on the floor in the basement.
Batteries are a very heavy load for an updtairs floor. Floodded batteries
can be messy.
My box has a plastic tray on the bottom to catch spills of water and acid
when
doing refils. It is (will be) vented outside using 2" conduit. I put in
some insulation
because for the near future my basement is uninsulated.
quote:
>
> Distribution center....rack mounted, nailed on the wall?
>
Wall mount. 2x4 and plywood power nailed to the wall, and screwed to
the upper wall plate of a concrete wall. I picked a centrally located wall
so
all wire runs from the AC distribution panel were even across the house.
Battery box needs to be near the inverter wall, so that you don;t have
long wire runs from your batteries to the DC disconnect, and inverter.
There is some noise from the inverter that might be annoying if in a living
area.
quote:
> Control/monitoring...none, timers, amp/volt meters, computer
> controlled?
>
I got a remote control and monitor for the inverter and charge controller
and
placed that in a main first floor hallway. This has proved to be very
useful. I
glance at the panel every time I walk by, keeping an eye on whether my
inverter is
in sleep mode (I know when somebody left a light or phantom load on) and
I can watch the progress as my PV panels collect sun energy during the day.
quote:
> AC vs. DC....as inverters get better, is it worth running separate DC
> branches?
>
I opted for no DC load circuits. Everything is AC. My Nominal voltage
is 48v, which would not be as useful as 12v unless I added a DC-DC
converter.
quote:
> Setup...where do you keep your installation...in a closet, basement,
> garage, separate building...all have pros and cons.
>
My main power wall and batteries are in the basement. It works well for me.
The only downside seems to be that the ambient temperature of the batteries
is a few degrees colder than if placed above ground. I worried a bit about
condensation
on the inverter, but so far it has not been a problem. The fan never runs on
the inverter because
the basement is very cool.
quote:
> Thanks again for offering your comments.
>
> TMT
>
| |
|
| On 14 Jun 2005 10:30:06 -0700, "Too_Many_Tools"
<too_many_tools@yahoo.com> wrote:
quote:
>Battery storage and handling....how did you do it? Racks, shelves, on
>the floor?
OSB box, floor mounted, angled top hinged, vertical vent pipe
quote:
>Distribution center....rack mounted, nailed on the wall?
Wall mounted, takes up virtually zero floor space.
quote:
>Control/monitoring...none, timers, amp/volt meters, computer
>controlled?
2 E-Meters, one with the equipment, one in the living room.
quote:
>AC vs. DC....as inverters get better, is it worth running separate DC
>branches?
All AC except for a couple of DC control circuits.
quote:
>Setup...where do you keep your installation...in a closet, basement,
>garage, separate building...all have pros and cons.
Inside, on the back wall of the garage.
Wayne
| |
| Ron Rosenfeld 2005-06-16, 2:23 pm |
| On 14 Jun 2005 10:30:06 -0700, "Too_Many_Tools" <too_many_tools@yahoo.com>
wrote:
quote:
>Thanks for all replys so far.
>
>A few more questions.....
>
>Battery storage and handling....how did you do it? Racks, shelves, on
>the floor?
>
Two tiers -- back tier higher and made of wood; lower tier sitting on a
concrete floor -- in a specially built room in the garage; enclosed in a
plywood box lined with neoprene to contain any spills.
Handling -- it was during house construction and we had three very husky
carpenters. I don't know what I'll do when the time comes to change them
:-((.
Regrets -- I should have made the room a bit larger, and provided better
ventilation. The batteries themselves get a little warm; but I have the
inverters in the same room (not in a position where they will be affected
by battery fumes). The inverters also include battery chargers, and when
that is running quite a bit of heat is generated.
quote:
>Distribution center....rack mounted, nailed on the wall?
Nailed to the wall in the adjacent garage.
quote:
>
>Control/monitoring...none, timers, amp/volt meters, computer
>controlled?
>
E-Meter for the battery bank; and the stuff that's included in my Trace
SW5548's and Outback MX60. The controlling is essentially automatic;
including automatic generator control. I've even got a relay that turns on
the generator engine block heater at the appropriate time. I do have to
remember to plug that in in November or so; and unplug it in the Spring.
quote:
>AC vs. DC....as inverters get better, is it worth running separate DC
>branches?
No. But some say separate DC is good for back up in case your inverters go
TU.
quote:
>
>Setup...where do you keep your installation...in a closet, basement,
>garage, separate building...all have pros and cons.
Attached garage.
quote:
>
-- ron (off the grid in Downeast Maine)
| |
| Reason 2005-06-16, 2:23 pm |
|
"Too_Many_Tools" <too_many_tools@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1118679458.411608.270380@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
quote:
>I am currently considering implementing an alternative home power
> setup.
>
> Knowing how systems evolve over time to changing needs and newer
> technology, I would like to hear from you how your system has changed
> over the years. Hearing of the changes in wiring, newer technology,
> better/bigger batteries, etc. have affected you and your installation
> will hopefully give me some valuable insight as to how to plan for
> growth and future improvements. It's the old "If I had known then what
> I know now" approach to design. ;< )
>
> Thanks for all suggestions/comments and links to pictures would be
> great.
>
> Thanks
>
> TMT
>
I'm new to the game, and I've already found that I don't need the capacity I
originally planned. The lighting is all low-voltage, the
heating/cooking/refrigeration is all gas, and the only things I need AC for
are the electronics, such as cellphones, TV, satellite, DVD and microwave.
These are easily powered by several small inverters and one 2000W, which is
only switched on as needed. Two 100W PV panels provide ample charging of
the 4x 225 AH batteries. Frills like air conditioning, power tools if
needed could be easily powered by a generator.
| |
| oconnell@slr.orl.lmco.com 2005-06-16, 2:23 pm |
|
Reason wrote:
[snip]
quote:
> Frills like air conditioning,
[snip]
The attitude forever holding back the alternative power movement.
| |
| Reason 2005-06-16, 2:23 pm |
|
<oconnell@slr.orl.lmco.com> wrote in message
news:1118925448.863712.147690@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
quote:
>
>
> Reason wrote:
> [snip]
> [snip]
>
> The attitude forever holding back the alternative power movement.
Mine or theirs?
| |
|
| On 16 Jun 2005 05:37:28 -0700, oconnell@slr.orl.lmco.com wrote:
quote:
>Reason wrote:
>[snip]
>[snip]
>
> The attitude forever holding back the alternative power movement.
Not at my place. But if there's any "attitude" holding back
alternative power, it's the grid-connected folks who insist on a
"payback" for home power, something they never give a thought to with
most other purchases.
Wayne
| |
| oconnell@slr.orl.lmco.com 2005-06-16, 2:23 pm |
|
Reason wrote:
quote:
> <oconnell@slr.orl.lmco.com> wrote in message
> news:1118925448.863712.147690@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>
> Mine or theirs?
Refering to air conditioning as a "frill".
| |
| John Bias 2005-06-17, 11:31 pm |
| I do not considering A?C as a frill.
Spending 95-100 degree days with 75 -90% humidity is not my idea of living.
Call me spoiled but at least me and my house don't smell like a wet dog.
<oconnell@slr.orl.lmco.com> wrote in message
news:1118936401.276127.76150@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
quote:
>
>
> Reason wrote:
>
> Refering to air conditioning as a "frill".
>
| |
| Bughunter 2005-06-17, 11:31 pm |
| In some parts of the country, like New England, air conditioning might be
useful for one or two weeks per year. Some might say that it falls into the
"frill" category in these areas, because it is relatively easy to live
comfortably without it. You can usually get by for those months of "bad
sledding" with a few simple house fans.
In the south, especially where it is humid like Florida, air conditioning
would be more of a requirement for comfortable living. So, it's not an
"attitude" problem, but rather a feature of geographical location.
Air conditioning is a hard nut to crack for alternative power setups, mainly
because it requires large amounts of electric power that can be expensive
to generate yourself. It is usually impractical to use alternative power to
generate enough power for other high consumption electric appliances like
electric space heating, or even electric stoves and hot water heaters.
While there are a variety of fuels available for heating, electricity is the
primary source for air conditioning. Therefore, air conditioning and
alternative electric power generation setups and air conditioning are not
that compatible, especially when compared to cheaper and higher capacity
grid power.
It's not a simple "attitude" problem that holds back alternative power when
it comes to things like air conditioning, but physics, geography,
engineering and economics.
"John Bias" <biasjo@yadtel.net> wrote in message
news:11b40ju3eibhl3e@corp.supernews.com...
quote:
>I do not considering A?C as a frill.
> Spending 95-100 degree days with 75 -90% humidity is not my idea of
> living.
> Call me spoiled but at least me and my house don't smell like a wet dog.
>
>
> <oconnell@slr.orl.lmco.com> wrote in message
> news:1118936401.276127.76150@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
>
| |
| twillmon@cybermesa.net 2005-06-17, 11:31 pm |
|
On 2005-06-17 nobody@home.net said:
quote:
>Newsgroups: alt.energy.homepower
[snip]
quote:
>Air conditioning is a hard nut to crack for alternative power
>setups, mainly because it requires large amounts of electric power
>that can be expensive to generate yourself. It is usually
>impractical to use alternative power to generate enough power for
>other high consumption electric appliances like electric space
>heating, or even electric stoves and hot water heaters.
>While there are a variety of fuels available for heating,
>electricity is the primary source for air conditioning. Therefore,
>air conditioning and alternative electric power generation setups
>and air conditioning are not that compatible, especially when
>compared to cheaper and higher capacity grid power.
In the late '90's a guy in Indiana with a massive PV system running
A/C gear used to post here. Think his sig was "Biker Babe in Black
Leather" (given him by a lady-friend).
I once fired up the RV airconditioning, watched my system's battery
charge deplete at a truly alarming rate, shut it off. And I run 1KW
of PV, have 13 KWHr of storage.
Tom Willmon
near Mountainair, (mid) New Mexico, USA
Net-Tamer V 1.12.0 - Registered
| |
| wmbjk 2005-06-17, 11:31 pm |
| On Fri, 17 Jun 2005 18:12:06 +0000 (UTC), twillmon@cybermesa.net
wrote:
quote:
>On 2005-06-17 nobody@home.net said:
>[snip]
[vbcol=seagreen]
>I once fired up the RV airconditioning, watched my system's battery
>charge deplete at a truly alarming rate, shut it off. And I run 1KW
>of PV, have 13 KWHr of storage.
>
>
>Tom Willmon
>near Mountainair, (mid) New Mexico, USA
We run AC most days in summer. But it doesn't have much in common with
its grid-connected cousin, which might often include a leaky house,
monster air source unit, 20 hours of central blower time, and
sweater-requiring indoor temps. ;-) Instead we have (3) 700W
ground-source console heat pumps. Typical day might be 2 hours run
time of the office unit early afternoon, 1 hour on the living room
unit late afternoon, and 1 hour on the bedroom unit just before
bedtime. AC can fit pretty well with some solar systems given that if
one has enough generating capacity for short winter days, then there
ought to be a substantial surplus on the long hot summer days. Battery
size shouldn't play much of a role in the use of AC, since it tends to
be needed when the sun's blazing. One thing we've done that helps make
AC practical here is to have both sun and wind generating sources.
They compliment each other nicely, and either can power the house by
itself when conditions are right. So when both are online, as on our
typical sunny and breezy summer afternoon when the batteries are long
since full, there's a surplus of energy that's best put to good use.
Wayne
| |
|
| > wmbjk wrote:
quote:
> Instead we have (3) 700W ground-source console heat pumps. Typical
> day might be 2 hours run time of the office unit early afternoon, 1
> hour on the living room> unit late afternoon, and 1 hour on the
> bedroom unit just before bedtime.
Hello, I'd like to hear more about these ground-source "console heat
pumps". Any info you're willing to share would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Herb
| |
| wmbjk 2005-06-24, 11:25 pm |
| On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 23:26:23 GMT, "Herb" <wraithe22@hotmail.com>
wrote:
quote:
>
>
>Hello, I'd like to hear more about these ground-source "console heat
>pumps". Any info you're willing to share would be appreciated.
>
>Thanks,
>Herb
If you've stayed in many motel rooms, you may have seen console heat
pumps.
Photo http://www.citlink.net/~wmbjk/images/heatpump.jpg
Document download page for all models
http://www.commercial.carrier.com/c...keting-Brochure
Installation manual for the console units
http://www.xpedio.carrier.com/idc/g...t/50kql-1si.pdf
They've made some updates, but the new ones appear similar.
Ours are the 07 model (the smallest they offer), 7000btuh nominal,
230V, about $1400 each eight years ago. They're custom built to order.
You get to specify (from memory) voltage, heat exchanger material,
normal or low water temp, right or left configuration, internal or
external thermostat etc.
There are other makes, here are three from a quick search
http://www.hydro-temp.com/product.htm
http://www.trane.com/commercial/equipment/geca.asp#
http://www.mcquay.com/mcquaybiz/lit...31-164Final.pdf
Some of them seem eerily similar to the Carrier models.
Wayne
| |
|
| Thanks for the information. It's very interesting, would work a lot
better than the afterthought addition of central airconditioning that
is in my house now. I really like the idea of a automated zone cooling
system, keep the rooms cool that need to be cooled while controlling
humidity in the others. Funny that I saw an advertisement for the
Mitsubishi electric http://www.mrslim.com/ on television. It seems
like a pretty nice system. Thanks for the information. I really
appreciate it. Herb
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