quote:

---

>I am posting this subject in three different groups to hopefully get a
>good cross section of ideas. I apologize ahead of time if this offends
>anyone.
>
>When one considers a workshop with metal and wood working capabilities,
>what tradeoffs have you made to have a working shop in an alternate
>homepower environment where every amp is precious?
>
>Obviously hand nonpowered tools take on a special importance.
>
>Cordless tools come to mind but which ones and what batteries?

quote:

---

>When considerng stationary tools like drills, lathes, mills, saws,
>grinders, etc., which ones fit best in an environment where one is off
>grid?

quote:

---

>Special operations like welding and using air compressors would seem to
>need consideration because of their unique requirements.

quote:

---

> I second what Robert Bonomi has said. What's wrong with good old
> fashioned human power? Such machinery was once very common. Take a
> look at some pictures of old machinery, and you will find an apprentice
> who is busy turning a flywheel all day long, and observing his master
> at work, thereby gaining a firsthand knoiwledge which no number of
> words can communicate. Nowadays, however, such flywheel turners tend
> to be very expensive. Therefore, I recommend that you build yourself a
> squirrelcage apparatus, and purchase a greyhound to run in it. Retired
> racing greyhounds are put to death if nobody wants them. I know a lady
> who has a retired racer, and he is a wonderful pet. A racer is happy
> when he is racing. This is of the very nature of a racer. So give a
> veteran a job, for god's sake, and build a squirrelcage power plant.

quote:

---

> Mike Mandaville
> providing meaningful solutions for the workaday world
>

quote:

---

> I am posting this subject in three different groups to hopefully get a
> good cross section of ideas. I apologize ahead of time if this offends
> anyone.
>
> When one considers a workshop with metal and wood working capabilities,
> what tradeoffs have you made to have a working shop in an alternate
> homepower environment where every amp is precious?
>
> Obviously hand nonpowered tools take on a special importance.
>
> Cordless tools come to mind but which ones and what batteries?
>
> When considerng stationary tools like drills, lathes, mills, saws,
> grinders, etc., which ones fit best in an environment where one is off
> grid?
>
> Special operations like welding and using air compressors would seem to
> need consideration because of their unique requirements.
>
> I would be interested in hearing how others have approached this
> situation and what implementations they have adopted.
>
> Thanks for any suggestions or comments that you can offer.
>
> TMT
>

quote:

---

>When one considers a workshop with metal and wood working capabilities,
>what tradeoffs have you made to have a working shop in an alternate
>homepower environment where every amp is precious?

quote:

---

>Obviously hand nonpowered tools take on a special importance.

quote:

---

>Cordless tools come to mind but which ones and what batteries?

quote:

---

>When considerng stationary tools like drills, lathes, mills, saws,
>grinders, etc., which ones fit best in an environment where one is off
>grid?

quote:

---

>Special operations like welding and using air compressors would seem to
>need consideration because of their unique requirements.

quote:

---

>1. Go to a big power tool store.
>2. Buy a generator.
>3. Buy a whole bunch of gas.
>4. Start said generator
>5. Plug in tools
>6. Build.

quote:

---

>Only real solution for running tools at home is a generator.

quote:

---

>I am posting this subject in three different groups to hopefully get a
> good cross section of ideas. I apologize ahead of time if this offends
> anyone.
>
> When one considers a workshop with metal and wood working capabilities,
> what tradeoffs have you made to have a working shop in an alternate
> homepower environment where every amp is precious?
>
> Obviously hand nonpowered tools take on a special importance.
>
> Cordless tools come to mind but which ones and what batteries?
>
> When considerng stationary tools like drills, lathes, mills, saws,
> grinders, etc., which ones fit best in an environment where one is off
> grid?
>
> Special operations like welding and using air compressors would seem to
> need consideration because of their unique requirements.
>
> I would be interested in hearing how others have approached this
> situation and what implementations they have adopted.
>
> Thanks for any suggestions or comments that you can offer.
>
> TMT
>

quote:

---

> And for those who might think that fart gas, otherwise known as bio
> gas, is unrealistic, here is the Mother Earth News "Plowboy Interview"
> of L. John Fry, who powered his farm with a generator turned by an
> engine which ran on this gas. This engine ran non-stop for six solid
> years:
>
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel...s/fryintvu.html
>

quote:

---

> I am posting this subject in three different groups to hopefully get a
> good cross section of ideas. I apologize ahead of time if this offends
> anyone.
>
> When one considers a workshop with metal and wood working capabilities,
> what tradeoffs have you made to have a working shop in an alternate
> homepower environment where every amp is precious?
>
> Obviously hand nonpowered tools take on a special importance.
>
> Cordless tools come to mind but which ones and what batteries?
>
> When considerng stationary tools like drills, lathes, mills, saws,
> grinders, etc., which ones fit best in an environment where one is off
> grid?
>
> Special operations like welding and using air compressors would seem to
> need consideration because of their unique requirements.
>
> I would be interested in hearing how others have approached this
> situation and what implementations they have adopted.
>
> Thanks for any suggestions or comments that you can offer.
>
> TMT
>

quote:

---

> On 14 Jun 2005 12:55:15 -0700, "FriscoSoxFan" <junk@kreusch.com>
> wrote:
>
>
> Booo! Hissss! Generators as a sole source are often the worst choice
> for home power. Their only advantage is low up-front cost. But in the
> long run they'll cost more, and are no fun to live with compared to
> solar/wind/inverter/battery. Home use tends to be relatively high
> energy but low power, while shop use tends to be high power but low
> energy. So adding shop power usually means increasing charging sources
> and batteries a little, but making the inverters substantially larger.
> And if one were to choose a generator well suited for shop use, it's
> likely to be way too big for backup on a properly sized home power
> setup.
>
> Wayne

quote:

---

>I am posting this subject in three different groups to hopefully get a
> good cross section of ideas. I apologize ahead of time if this offends
> anyone.
>
> When one considers a workshop with metal and wood working capabilities,
> what tradeoffs have you made to have a working shop in an alternate
> homepower environment where every amp is precious?

quote:

---

> I would be interested in hearing how others have approached this
> situation and what implementations they have adopted.
>
> Thanks for any suggestions or comments that you can offer.

quote:

---

>Charging batteries is *extremely* ineffcient.

quote:

---

>When one considers a workshop with metal and wood working capabilities,
>what tradeoffs have you made to have a working shop in an alternate
>homepower environment where every amp is precious?

quote:

---

>The idea can make sense in some situations but is far from a
>universal solution.

quote:

---

>"wmbjk" <wmbjkREMOVE@citlink.net> wrote in message
>news:l5iua19akfhnla80npf692gtb99mmqvifs@4ax.com...
[vbcol=seagreen]
>Some people, unlike you, have a real life though.

quote:

---

>When one considers a workshop with metal and wood working capabilities,
>what tradeoffs have you made to have a working shop in an alternate
>homepower environment where every amp is precious?

quote:

---

>Newsgroups: alt.energy.homepower,rec.crafts.metalworking,rec.
>woodworking
>I am posting this subject in three different groups to hopefully
>get a good cross section of ideas. I apologize ahead of time if
>this offends anyone.
>When one considers a workshop with metal and wood working
>capabilities, what tradeoffs have you made to have a working shop
>in an alternate homepower environment where every amp is precious?
>Obviously hand nonpowered tools take on a special importance.
>Cordless tools come to mind but which ones and what batteries?
>When considerng stationary tools like drills, lathes, mills, saws,
>grinders, etc., which ones fit best in an environment where one is
>off grid?
>Special operations like welding and using air compressors would
>seem to need consideration because of their unique requirements.
>I would be interested in hearing how others have approached this
>situation and what implementations they have adopted.
>Thanks for any suggestions or comments that you can offer.
>TMT

quote:

---

><snip>
><snip>
>Given the current economic/social/political environment your
>concerns are well founded, however I think the primary or basic
>problem will not be limited or unavailable [electrical] power,
>but rather the more pervasive and dangerous problem of a lack of
>spare parts, raw materials and most critical HSS and carbide
>tools and blanks. =20
>
>Whether by design or stupidity, the American
>manufacturing/industrial infrastructure is rapidly being
>destroyed, primarily by management "outsourcing" and plant
>transfer.
>
>With the trade deficit [current account trade balance]
>approaching 2 billion dollars *PER DAY* it does not require a
>degree in rocket science or a tarot deck to see that the time is
>near when imports by the U.S. economy will be on a C.O.D. or even
>a "pre-pay" basis [in gold, not dollars]. =20
>
>Given the U.S. has a very limited (and rapidly diminishing)
>domestic production capacity for machine tools [lathes, mills,
>gear shapers, etc.], C.N.C. controllers, and perhaps most
>critical M2 HSS and carbide inserts, this means the entire house
>of cards will collapse as the existing machinery wears out,
>replacements are unobtainable, and repair cannot be attempted.
>
>Re-industrialization will be very expensive, time consuming and
>dangerous, as even the most basic industries such as iron
>foundries will have to be reestablished. Indeed, a generation or
>more will be required, as the evolution, techniques and lessons
>of the period 1890-1930 will have to be retraced, with no
>assurance that the time required will be available before America
>must again meet a serious international challenge to its
>existence / hegemony.=20
>
>

quote:

---

> On 14 Jun 2005 12:07:53 -0700, "Too_Many_Tools"
> <too_many_tools@yahoo.com> wrote:
>

quote:

---

> cut-outs above 45 Amps. It will also temporarily shut down if the
> compressor starts mid-cut. So I let the compressor tank fill, then
> shut the pump power off before starting the cut.

quote:

---

>Thanks for the reply.
>
>I would agree that cordless tools have a spot in the AHP workshop since
>one can recharge them during off load hours.
>
>Where would one find 12v motors in the suitable HP and speeds to
>retrofit something like a table saw?
>
>In considering this subject, a lineshaft approach does come to mind but
>unfortunately you rarely see the needed equipment at HD or Lowes. I am
>not to crazy about chucking all the stationary power tools that have
>taken me decades to collect. Also, lineshafts take up room, linedriven
>tools are required to stay in one place and cannot be mounted on wheels
>to optimize shop space as needed. A workshop should be no larger than
>necessary for the heating/cooling aspect that also takes energy.
>
>TMT
>
>
>

quote:

---

>Thanks for the reply.
>
>I would agree that cordless tools have a spot in the AHP workshop since
>one can recharge them during off load hours.
>
>Where would one find 12v motors in the suitable HP and speeds to
>retrofit something like a table saw?
>
>In considering this subject, a lineshaft approach does come to mind but
>unfortunately you rarely see the needed equipment at HD or Lowes. I am
>not to crazy about chucking all the stationary power tools that have
>taken me decades to collect. Also, lineshafts take up room, linedriven
>tools are required to stay in one place and cannot be mounted on wheels
>to optimize shop space as needed. A workshop should be no larger than
>necessary for the heating/cooling aspect that also takes energy.
>
>TMT

quote:

---

> vacation, and then head for your local crematorium.
>
> Matt

quote:

---

> Thanks for posting...actual daily experience carries alot of weight.
>
> What is the largest motor that your equipment has?
>
> Any of them three phase? I ask because many times industrial equipment
> has three phase motors.
>
> Any desire for changing any of the motors to DC?
>
> TMT
>

quote:

---

> On 15 Jun 2005 11:36:20 -0700, "Too_Many_Tools"
> <too_many_tools@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> I really hesitate to jump in on this topic, but I advise you to make
> sure to do your research carefully before pursuing the replacement of
> AC motors with DC motors.
>
> In the early days of homepower which was nearly universally 12V on the
> primary side, this was a pretty common practice, but in the overall
> picture of things today I'm not sure it's warranted in the general
> case.
>
> At one time I was given to understand that DC motors are just innately
> more efficient than AC. It appears that this is not necessarily so,
> and has much to do with the crappy design and build quality of
> "shovelware" AC motors than any basic electromechanical principles. To
> know whether you would actually be further ahead after a DC
> conversion, you would have to consider each case individually.
> Ignoring power factor, a 12V load of power "x" draws 10 times the
> current that an 120VAC load will draw. Will the losses you avoid by
> bypassing the inverter get chewed up in the wire? How close to the
> battery room will the workshop be?

quote:

---

>
> I started out at 12V primary by virtue of buying a house with an
> existing PV system. Like many frontier homebrew systems, it had
> started as a purely DC system to which an inverter was added later.
>
> Having no plumbing in the house, I've acquired a number of small 12V
> pumps for various specific purposes, such as our bucket shower.
> Fortunately this hasn't represented a significant investment. With
> each system upgrade I left myself options for going to a higher
> primary voltage, and recently made the move to 24V when we replaced
> our chargerless mod square wave inverter with a sine wave
> inverter/charger. At some distant point in the future we might even
> make the jump to 48V, but for the moment, 24V was "just right."
>
> The punchline is that our little pumps (and other 12V DC loads) are
> now running off a 24V/12V DC-DC converter. In the overall picture of
> things this crazy scenario actually still makes sense here, but again
> these are *small* loads.

quote:

---

>
> The moral is that when you choose to run DC loads, you're creating
> specialized equipment and there are serious implications that might
> not be immediately obvious. If you stick with AC loads, your wire runs
> can be far longer for a given power throughput / wire guage, you can
> reconfigure the primary side of your system without affecting anything
> on the load side, use a common AC generator when it's more convenient
> or more sensible to do so, or take your gear with you and use it
> elsewhere.

quote:

---

>
> Having "inherited" a mixed DC/AC system and lived with it, off-grid,
> for five years, there is no question in my mind that the new house we
> build here will be wired almost entirely for conventional AC and will
> likely have only some emergency lighting (power room!), and perhaps a
> few very special-purpose devices and outlets wired for DC.
>
> YMMV.
>
> -=s
>

quote:

---

><snip>
><snip>
>Given the current economic/social/political environment your
>concerns are well founded, however I think the primary or basic
>problem will not be limited or unavailable [electrical] power,
>but rather the more pervasive and dangerous problem of a lack of
>spare parts, raw materials and most critical HSS and carbide
>tools and blanks.
>
>Whether by design or stupidity, the American
>manufacturing/industrial infrastructure is rapidly being
>destroyed, primarily by management "outsourcing" and plant
>transfer.
>
>With the trade deficit [current account trade balance]
>approaching 2 billion dollars *PER DAY* it does not require a
>degree in rocket science or a tarot deck to see that the time is
>near when imports by the U.S. economy will be on a C.O.D. or even
>a "pre-pay" basis [in gold, not dollars].
>
>Given the U.S. has a very limited (and rapidly diminishing)
>domestic production capacity for machine tools [lathes, mills,
>gear shapers, etc.], C.N.C. controllers, and perhaps most
>critical M2 HSS and carbide inserts, this means the entire house
>of cards will collapse as the existing machinery wears out,
>replacements are unobtainable, and repair cannot be attempted.
>
>Re-industrialization will be very expensive, time consuming and
>dangerous, as even the most basic industries such as iron
>foundries will have to be reestablished. Indeed, a generation or
>more will be required, as the evolution, techniques and lessons
>of the period 1890-1930 will have to be retraced, with no
>assurance that the time required will be available before America
>must again meet a serious international challenge to its
>existence / hegemony.
>
>

quote:

---

> Some people, unlike you, have a real life though.

quote:

---

>
> I would agree but an VFD that is unnecessary is a current draw that is
> not needed.
>
> Like any system, one needs to plan a workshop as a whole.
>
> At this point, I could go single phase, 3 phase or DC motors on on all
> my machines. One of the reasons why I started this discussion was to
> make that decision based partially on the experiences of others who
> have hopefully gone before me.
>
> TMT

quote:

---

> Thanks for the reply.
>
> I would agree that cordless tools have a spot in the AHP workshop since
> one can recharge them during off load hours.
>
> Where would one find 12v motors in the suitable HP and speeds to
> retrofit something like a table saw?

quote:

---

>
> In considering this subject, a lineshaft approach does come to mind but
> unfortunately you rarely see the needed equipment at HD or Lowes. I am
> not to crazy about chucking all the stationary power tools that have
> taken me decades to collect. Also, lineshafts take up room, linedriven
> tools are required to stay in one place and cannot be mounted on wheels
> to optimize shop space as needed. A workshop should be no larger than
> necessary for the heating/cooling aspect that also takes energy.
>
> TMT
>

quote:

---

> On 15 Jun 2005 11:36:20 -0700, "Too_Many_Tools"
> <too_many_tools@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> I started out at 12V primary by virtue of buying a house with an
> existing PV system. Like many frontier homebrew systems, it had
> started as a purely DC system to which an inverter was added later.
>
> Having no plumbing in the house, I've acquired a number of small 12V
> pumps for various specific purposes, such as our bucket shower.

quote:

---

>Too_Many_Tools wrote:
>
>I've been following this thread with some interest and now have some
>thoughts and comments to add to it.
>
>I may have missed something along the way, but I don't recall you
>specifying what type(s) of alternative energy sources you have
>available. This makes quite a difference in determining the best
>options.
>
>As an example, if your alternate source(s) provide mechanical power such
>as found with water power, wind power, or a solar boiler driving a
>turbine or steam engine, then air power could be quite advantageous.
>
>A source of mechanical energy can directly drive a compressor head,
>saving the extremely inefficient conversions to electricity and back.
>Compressed air is easy and economical to store in large volumes and is
>free from the chemical hazards of batteries. Useable service life of
>compressed air tanks is much higher than batteries as well.

quote:

---

>In addition to the obvious air tools, compressed air can also be used to
>power things such as refrigeration if you use the belt driven type
>refrigeration compressors.

quote:

---

>Those mechanical energy sources can also simultaneously drive electrical
>generators to charge conventional batteries for loads such as lighting.

quote:

---

>Battery charging for cordless tools is no less efficient that the
>charging of your "regular" battery string, as long as the charging is
>limited to peak energy generation times.

quote:

---

>The efficiency of converting DC from your battery string to AC so you
>can use conventional appliances is fairly good with modern inverters.
>The conversion efficiency also improves when you use a higher voltage
>battery string since inverters switching higher voltages at lower
>currents will have lower resistive / heat losses.
>
>Solar PV conversion efficiency is incredibly low to begin with and PV
>cost is high so if that is your only energy source you really do need to
>watch every miliamp.

quote:

---

>Of course, even with that inefficiency a solar PV
>panel charging batteries for your cordless tools is just fine as long as
>it has the capacity to keep up with your usage.
>
>For items like welders that require huge gulps of power it's really
>difficult to get away from an IC engine / generator for practicality.

quote:

---

> A decent welder / generator can serve two needs and may be the most
>practical solution.

quote:

---

>If you've got really good water power available you could probably use
>it to drive the head from an engine driven welder. A DC inverter type
>welder could probably be modified to accept DC from a large battery
>bank, but that would require you to have a fairly high voltage battery
>string to be practical.

quote:

---

>Someone else posted about the differences in energy needs of a shop vs.
>home. They had more or less the correct idea, but got their terminology
>a bit out of whack. A shop has mostly high peak energy loads at low duty
>cycles and a home has mostly low peak loads with high duty cycles. The
>total energy consumption over the course of a day could be similar
>depending on how busy the shop is.

quote:

---

>
> On Thu, 16 Jun 2005 15:43:10 GMT, "Pete C." <aux3.DOH.4@snet.net>
> wrote:
>
>
> Wind driven compressor -> storage tank -> air motors? Could be OK if
> one had a really windy site, lots of surplus pressure vessels, and a
> plenty of rotor diameter. To get an idea of the diameter versus work
> produced, check out the size and pumping rates of Bowjon well pumps.

quote:

---

>
>
> Mechanical drive all the way to the pump? That would work well with a
> large mill, when the wind is blowing, and be as efficient as these
> http://www.deanbennett.com/windmills.htm. But in that application
> there's the advantage of easy storage for when there's no wind.

quote:

---

>
>
> Which is why the conventional rotor/alternator is so popular with home
> power users. Ours is similar to this one
> http://www.windenergy.com/whisper_200.htm.

quote:

---

>
>
> For the usual home power setup, cordless tools are no more and no less
> advantageous than they are on-grid. Unless the power setup is very
> small, the double conversion isn't worth trying to work around.

quote:

---

>
>
> That depends. On very small systems, it's often true. Our setup isn't
> huge, and costs about as much as a medium priced SUV. The idle loads
> are about 100 Watts 24-7. That's a waste versus
> convenience/practicality issue, and it's a long way from watching
> every milliamp.

quote:

---

>
>
> Not necessarily. Home welding tends to be short duration. The hardware
> to supply that kind of power is actually affordable, and if one is
> designing the power system from scratch for what most would consider a
> normal home, then the extra inverter capacity isn't a big deal. In our
> case, for the house loads alone we could have gotten away with a
> single SW4024 plus a transformer for the 220V loads. Instead we used
> dual inverters, which eliminated the need for the transformer, and
> provided sufficient power for most anything used in the usual home
> shop.

quote:

---

>
>
> Welder generators aren't a good match for backup duty, or even for
> backup charging. Their advantage is portability for welding, and
> they're only best (in the home power context) when you need high amps
> for short periods. For any application that needs longer run times
> supplying small loads, something like the Honda EU series is far
> better. After a few years of living off-grid, like many others I found
> that a DC backup generator that works independently of the
> inverter/chargers is nice to have. The one I built drives a $5 scrap
> Delco 27SI, and only produces about 2000 Watts. When there's no sun or
> wind, we can do nicely on about 4 hours run time per day, at a
> charging rate that's similar to when the other sources are on line.

quote:

---

>
>
> Like some of the other comments in this thread (line shafts for
> instance), that suggestion may be feasible. But unless one has way
> more time than money, conventional methods are more practical.

quote:

---

>
>
> That was probably me you're talking about, and my terminology was
> quite correct for our setup. Occasionally our shop energy use is
> higher than for our house, but usually it's the other way around by a
> big margin. Normal power tool energy consumption in a home shop is
> lost in the noise of an all-electric home's consumption. Welders,
> plasma cutters, chop saws, table saws, planers, etc. are all high
> power, but relatively low energy because of their short run times.

quote:

---

>
> Keep in mind that we're talking *home* shop here, which I consider to
> be small projects by one person. Many off-gridders go the route of
> putting a high percentage of their loads onto propane, leaving much
> less for the actual power system to do. For them, shop energy
> consumption may indeed cause the need for a much larger system, or the
> pain and cost of running a big generator. But we're very nearly 100%
> solar/wind powered. We don't even have propane, and fuel use for
> backup generator and the welder/generator combined isn't much
> different than what some folks consume in a season of mowing a big
> lawn with a garden tractor.

quote:

---

>
> Here are a couple of my projects from my off-grid shop. I only needed
> the engine-driven welder a few times, mostly for its portability.
>
> http://www.citlink.net/~wmbjk/image...tals%20only.jpg top 40' of
> a 65' free-standing wind generator tower (in progress)
> http://www.citlink.net/~wmbjk/images/tower%20top.JPG tower nearly
> finished and erected
> http://www.citlink.net/~wmbjk/frank.htm cactus transport
>
> Wayne

quote:

---

>
>"Scott Willing" <NOTwilling2BSPAMMED@mts.net> wrote in message
>news:gvu0b1t6l2777mhv4qma4vt010dg2gepo9@4ax.com...
>
>Just curious, but how do you go to the bathroom? Composting toilet?

quote:

---

>Outhouse?

quote:

---

><compressed air storage> Should be comparable or better efficiency than a wind driven generator
>charging batteries.

quote:

---

> They also do this
>with pumped hydro, but CAS is far more practical than pumped hydro in a
>homepower environment.

quote:

---

>No, not mechanically driven. The refrigeration compressor would be belt
>driven from an air motor. The thermostat simply opens the air valve when
>it needs to spin up the compressor. Again the ultimate source of power
>does not have to be wind, and in fact with CAS it's even easier to
>combine energy captured from multiple sources. No need to worry about
>charge controllers when you're simply pumping air into a big tank.

quote:

---

>The point is that batteries can only accept a charge at a certain rate,
>potentially wasting captured energy during peaks.

quote:

---

>The efficiency of directly utilizing the energy of the compressed air
>for mechanical applications is also higher. Instead of capturing wind
>energy, converting to electricity, storing in a battery, converting to
>AC, converting to mechanical energy with a motor, converting to
>compressed air with a compressor coupled to the motor and then utilizing
>the compresses air to fire your nail gun, you eliminate four conversion
>steps.

quote:

---

>This is where you really need the hybrid system. You run the inverter to
>power your conventional appliances. When you are not running the
>appliances you turn the inverter off.

quote:

---

> You run your lighting and TV and
>whatnot that are your much higher duty cycle items from DC and avoid the
>conversion.

quote:

---

>Perhaps your home welding is less than mine. I've got a Miller
>Syncrowave 250 that I love and it can see quite a bit of use on project
>weekends. I'm thinking your inverters would gag at the 240v 100a gulps
>the Syncrowave takes, even if the typical gulp is only about 10 seconds
>duration. On a big project those 10 second gulps add up to quite a few
>minutes.

quote:

---

>I didn't really intend the welder / generator to be used for backup to
>the regular power system. I really meant it more as an option for
>powering larger shop tools.

quote:

---

>Modifying a DC inverter welder which are pretty inexpensive these days
>is likely the most efficient way to get quality welding capacity from a
>home power system. No line shaft required, and no need for oversized
>inverters or load shedding.

quote:

---

>Somehow it seems to cost
>more to live self sufficient off-grid than it does to just pay the
>utilities...

quote:

---

>
> On Thu, 16 Jun 2005 21:55:15 GMT, "Pete C." <aux3.DOH.4@snet.net>
> wrote:
>
>
> Perhaps in some niches... but in any event a practical home power
> setup needs some batteries, and charging them with wind, assuming
> there's wind to harvest, is highly recommended. So you're talking
> about *adding* systems because you believe it's worth the trouble, but
> you haven't supplied any numbers or examples to back up your position.

quote:

---

>
>
> But both are less practical than batteries.

quote:

---

>
>
> How big a tank? I think you're going to find a fly in the ointment
> once you run some numbers on air consumption. And if air power could
> be so efficient and practical, why do you believe it is that
> off-gridders, often known to be innovative and unafraid of breaking
> with convention, haven't flocked to the concept?

quote:

---

>
>
> There's isn't any peak power wasting problem that I'm aware of with
> home power systems, since the cost of generating prevents people from
> buying excess capacity. Can you give an example of the problem you're
> citing?

quote:

---

>
>
> You left out the AC to DC conversion of the turbine, and assumed that
> energy used must be stored in a battery first. It's true that
> compressed air for tools is a very inefficient process, on-grid or
> off. Yet I've managed quite well with the just the same sort of
> compressor that grid-connected folks use. I could do wind-powered shop
> air more easily than most, but I wouldn't dream of adding another
> system to cure an inefficiency that's such a small part of the big
> picture.

quote:

---

>
> Coincidentally, I have a neighbor who plans a Bowjon type installation
> (low tower, bulky rotor, single-stage compressor) for shop air using
> multiple surplus storage tanks. I've suggested that since he hasn't
> any wind power at present and could really use some, that the time and
> money he's going to put into the new setup would be better spent on a
> conventional wind genny and a tall tower.

quote:

---

>
>
> That's one of those convenience/practicalities tradeoffs. Many
> appliances don't like being de-powered, and it's a nuisance to fight
> it. IMO, biting the bullet for full time capacity is one of those
> things that goes a long way to making off-grid living palatable for
> the average person. After a hard day of pining over the dearth of
> rural ballet, the last thing you want is to have to reprogram the
> clock on the microwave. :-)

quote:

---

>
>
> The conversion losses are lamentable, but not generally worth working
> around. As Scott mentioned, after you've fought that battle for a
> while, you're ready for straight AC in order to eliminate the
> diddling.

quote:

---

>
>
> The fuses definitely couldn't handle it - 400A limit (24V system).
> What kind of *home* welding are you doing that takes 24k Watts input?

quote:

---

>
> People can size for whatever they can afford, but if I had the need
> for more indoor stick/TIG, I'd be after one of these
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...tem=7524207277,
> which should be a comfortable fit with our setup. But I find I rarely
> stick weld indoors above about 120A, although I use the Powemig 255 up
> to its max more often. The only really heavy stuff I have to work on
> are the tractors, and that's only occasionally. Since they don't fit
> inside, and neither does the smoke and dust of heavy work, I roll an
> engine-driven unit outdoors.

quote:

---

>
>
> The auto-idle feature of a good unit will make that bearable, if the
> tools' idle use is compatible. Still, the generator is going to be
> either idling or roaring in between power tool use, at an average of
> about $2 per hour in fuel. When we first moved onto our site, but
> before we had the power system set up temporarily, I was stuck with
> the welder generator. The running hours add up quickly, and I wouldn't
> recommend it to anyone else except for occasional or temporary use, or
> because there was no alternative, or if it's for a job that pays
> enough to cover the expenses and aggravation.

quote:

---

>
>
> Everyone has different needs, wants, and budget, but I think you'll
> find that more and more people have a potential combination of house
> loads that need such capacity that shop use isn't a leap. Around here
> for instance are many who need to power the surge of a 2 hp well pump,

quote:

---

> along with other use concurrent. It can be done with a smaller
> inverter and a generator, but it's sure nice to get that generator
> time down if you can. We used to have a couple nearby who had a
> generator/battery/inverter setup, over 10 hours generator time per
> day. That's about 4000 hours and 2000 gallons of fuel per year. I
> think the fuel cost, repair costs, and eventual generator replacement
> cost were big factors in their pulling out after a few years. Even a
> modest amount of PV could have cut that generator time in half, and
> would have been far cheaper in the long run. Better still, the cost of
> that (very nice) generator and fuel could have bought a combination of
> hardware including a much smaller generator needing only a few hours
> per week run time.

quote:

---

>
>
> Not necessarily. Cashing out of a grid-connected place allowed us to
> retire, start with a clean slate, and as the yuppies say, "leverage"
> the advantages of home power to help keep the big picture cost down.
> Cheap land, lower taxes, fewer utilities (still need the phone
> company) are some of the benefits.

quote:

---

>In talking to off-gridders, I find
> that the main factor affecting success isn't so much the power issues,
> but whether the folks can afford and are comfortable with truly rural
> living. For most, that usually means retirement or telecommuting, and
> precludes having children at home. For those who need to commute or be
> close to school busses etc., they're usually stuck with paying the
> premium for grid access. Then again, when they want to generate their
> own power, they can have cheaper and more efficient systems, and use
> the grid for storage.

quote:

---

> On Thu, 16 Jun 2005 21:55:15 GMT, "Pete C." <aux3.DOH.4@snet.net>
> wrote:
>
>
wind driven generator[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> Perhaps in some niches... but in any event a practical home power
> setup needs some batteries, and charging them with wind, assuming
> there's wind to harvest, is highly recommended. So you're talking
> about *adding* systems because you believe it's worth the trouble, but
> you haven't supplied any numbers or examples to back up your position.
>
>
> But both are less practical than batteries.
>
>
> How big a tank? I think you're going to find a fly in the ointment
> once you run some numbers on air consumption. And if air power could
> be so efficient and practical, why do you believe it is that
> off-gridders, often known to be innovative and unafraid of breaking
> with convention, haven't flocked to the concept?

quote:

---

>
>
> There's isn't any peak power wasting problem that I'm aware of with
> home power systems, since the cost of generating prevents people from
> buying excess capacity. Can you give an example of the problem you're
> citing?
>
>
> You left out the AC to DC conversion of the turbine, and assumed that
> energy used must be stored in a battery first. It's true that
> compressed air for tools is a very inefficient process, on-grid or
> off. Yet I've managed quite well with the just the same sort of
> compressor that grid-connected folks use. I co