Alternative Power sources - electricity from waste heat?

Author

electricity from waste heat?

zenboom

2005-06-16, 2:22 pm

I gather there is technology to directly generate current from temp diff
across 2 materials.
What would you suggest is the potential for increasing energy efficiency by
using this, or other, technology, on the ICE , A/C etc. ?

--
R'zenboom
Signal.ds

Dave Hinz

2005-06-16, 2:22 pm

On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 18:35:08 +0200, zenboom <?signal.ds?@?bluebottle.com?> wrote:

quote:

> I gather there is technology to directly generate current from temp diff
> across 2 materials.

Yes. Peltier and/or Zeeback (sp?) effects.

quote:

> What would you suggest is the potential for increasing energy efficiency by
> using this, or other, technology, on the ICE , A/C etc. ?

None at all. You'll just put more thermal load on the device making the
temperature differential, so it works harder. You'll spend more energy
than you recover.

Don Kelly

2005-06-16, 2:23 pm

"zenboom" <?signal.ds?@?bluebottle.com?> wrote in message
news:d8pln7$gog$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net...

quote:

> I gather there is technology to directly generate current from temp diff
> across 2 materials.
> What would you suggest is the potential for increasing energy efficiency

quote:

> using this, or other, technology, on the ICE , A/C etc. ?
>
> --
> R'zenboom
> Signal.ds
>

It has been done and is done. Look up "Peltier" and "thermocouple"
..
It has its uses- I have a heater/cooler unit which I use in my car. It will
keep a 6-pack plus a bit cool but requires a long drive to actually cool it
down. I disconnect it when stopped as I want to be able to restart my car.

.. You still run into thermodynamic limits and the typical efficiency is
quite low.

--
Don Kelly
dhky@peeshaw.ca
remove the urine to answer

Reason

2005-06-16, 2:23 pm

"zenboom" <?signal.ds?@?bluebottle.com?> wrote in message
news:d8pln7$gog$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net...

quote:

>I gather there is technology to directly generate current from temp diff
> across 2 materials.
> What would you suggest is the potential for increasing energy efficiency
> by
> using this, or other, technology, on the ICE , A/C etc. ?
>
> --
> R'zenboom
> Signal.ds

Try this:

http://doc.tms.org/ezMerchant/prodt...ID/JOM-9812-49/$FILE/JOM-9812-49F.pdf?OpenElement

Arnold Walker

2005-06-17, 11:31 pm

Catapillar already does that ......Combined cycle. Will double or better ICE
effieciency.
I guess the PC guys should call it hybrid since it half ICE and half steam
turbine/piston engine.
Westinghouse and GE has gas turbine combined cycles that turn out 80-90%
effeciecy.With water injected NG or cracked NG(hydrogen) on the gas turbine
side..... .
"zenboom" <?signal.ds?@?bluebottle.com?> wrote in message
news:d8pln7$gog$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net...

quote:

> I gather there is technology to directly generate current from temp diff
> across 2 materials.
> What would you suggest is the potential for increasing energy efficiency

quote:

> using this, or other, technology, on the ICE , A/C etc. ?
>
> --
> R'zenboom
> Signal.ds
>
>

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Arnold Walker

2005-06-17, 11:31 pm

quote:

> I gather there is technology to directly generate current from temp diff
> across 2 materials.
> What would you suggest is the potential for increasing energy efficiency

quote:

> using this, or other, technology, on the ICE , A/C etc. ?
>
> --
> R'zenboom
> Signal.ds
>
>

Tim Keating

2005-06-17, 11:31 pm

On Fri, 17 Jun 2005 01:46:00 -0500, "Arnold Walker"
<arnoldwalker@consolidated.net> wrote:

quote:

>Catapillar already does that ......Combined cycle. Will double or better ICE
>effieciency.
>I guess the PC guys should call it hybrid since it half ICE and half steam
>turbine/piston engine.
>Westinghouse and GE has gas turbine combined cycles that turn out 80-90%
>effeciecy.With water injected NG or cracked NG(hydrogen) on the gas turbine
>side..... .

Do you have any cites to support that claim..

Last I heard, combined cycle plants are only in the ~60% effecient
range.

quote:

>"zenboom" <?signal.ds?@?bluebottle.com?> wrote in message
>news:d8pln7$gog$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net...
>by
>
>
>
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Ignoramus12712

2005-06-17, 11:31 pm

On Fri, 17 Jun 2005 13:10:10 -0400, Tim Keating <NotForJunkEmail@directinternet11.com1> wrote:

quote:

> On Fri, 17 Jun 2005 01:46:00 -0500, "Arnold Walker"
><arnoldwalker@consolidated.net> wrote:
>
>
> Do you have any cites to support that claim..
>
> Last I heard, combined cycle plants are only in the ~60% effecient
> range.

Efficiency of an engine converting thermal energy to mechanical energy
is limited by Carnot's law:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnot_heat_engine

efficiency of 90% would reguire insane temperatures.

i

quote:

>
>

Arnold Walker

2005-06-18, 12:25 pm

"Tim Keating" <NotForJunkEmail@directinternet11.com1> wrote in message
news:8t06b1tr6i36hgcf67otoupd58ugq02sep@4ax.com...

quote:

> On Fri, 17 Jun 2005 01:46:00 -0500, "Arnold Walker"
> <arnoldwalker@consolidated.net> wrote:
>
ICE[vbcol=seagreen]
steam[vbcol=seagreen]
turbine[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> Do you have any cites to support that claim..
>
> Last I heard, combined cycle plants are only in the ~60% effecient
> range.

60% without the water injection on the gas turbine.....80-90% with water
injection
water is a better energy transfer meadia than air ,hence difference
You can start with all three Corporate sites,then move on to the
engineering sites that are installing the units.
Less thermo stress and the lasts more cycles as well when water injected.

quote:

>
>
diff[vbcol=seagreen]
efficiency[vbcol=seagreen]
News==----[vbcol=seagreen]
Newsgroups[vbcol=seagreen]
=----[vbcol=seagreen]
>

Tim Keating

2005-06-18, 12:25 pm

On Sat, 18 Jun 2005 04:20:38 -0500, "Arnold Walker"
<arnoldwalker@consolidated.net> wrote:

quote:

>
>"Tim Keating" <NotForJunkEmail@directinternet11.com1> wrote in message
>news:8t06b1tr6i36hgcf67otoupd58ugq02sep@4ax.com...
>ICE
>steam
>turbine
>60% without the water injection on the gas turbine.....80-90% with water
>injection
>water is a better energy transfer meadia than air ,hence difference
>You can start with all three Corporate sites,then move on to the
>engineering sites that are installing the units.
>Less thermo stress and the lasts more cycles as well when water injected.

I already have... ~60% is currently the max.

http://www.worldenergy.org/wec-geis...ress/2_3_12.asp
check out "3.4 Water of steam injection"

http://www.gepower.com/prod_serv/pr...6000_sprint.htm
"Spray Inter-cooled Turbine System
Unlike most gas turbines, the LM6000 is primarily controlled by the
compressor discharge temperature in lieu of the turbine inlet
temperature. Some of the compressor discharge air is then used to cool
high-pressure turbine components."

"Sprint which stands for Spray Inter-cooled Turbine reduces
compressor discharge temperature thereby allowing advancement of the
throttle to significantly enhance power by 12 percent at ISO and
greater than 30 percent at 90 °F (32 °C) ambient temperatures."

But , that extra power comes at a trade off... lower efficiency...
compare LHV rates between LM6000PD SPRINT and LM6000PD

http://www.gepower.com/prod_serv/pr...6000_sprint.pdf

A bit more(10%) power..
But with only a slight increase in efficiency 41.1% to 41.4%.

As for overall efficiencies higher than 60%, that's what research is
for.
http://www.eere.energy.gov/de/pdfs/...abbie_layne.pdf

They hope to reach 75 to 80% in 10 years..
[vbcol=seagreen]
>diff
>efficiency

Jesse Spencer

2005-06-18, 12:25 pm

zenboom wrote:

quote:

> I gather there is technology to directly generate current from temp diff
> across 2 materials.

If there is you could make refrigeration units that use no electricity
and output some.

John P Bengi

2005-06-18, 12:25 pm

So far, I have only seen it used in sensor inputs for measurement technology
but then that is where PV started originally also until somebody could count
higher than their fingers and stacked them profusely.

"zenboom" <?signal.ds?@?bluebottle.com?> wrote in message
news:d8pln7$gog$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net...

quote:

> I gather there is technology to directly generate current from temp diff
> across 2 materials.
> What would you suggest is the potential for increasing energy efficiency

quote:

> using this, or other, technology, on the ICE , A/C etc. ?
>
> --
> R'zenboom
> Signal.ds
>
>

Bruce in Alaska

2005-06-18, 6:25 pm

In article <3bGdnawwR4ZggCnfRVn-pw@golden.net>,
"John P Bengi" <JBengi (spamm)@(spamm) yahoo,com> wrote:

quote:

> So far, I have only seen it used in sensor inputs for measurement technology
> but then that is where PV started originally also until somebody could count
> higher than their fingers and stacked them profusely.
>
> "zenboom" <?signal.ds?@?bluebottle.com?> wrote in message
> news:d8pln7$gog$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net...
> by
>
>

I have a Thermoelectric Generator that is Propane in, 24Vdc 7amps out,
no moving parts, and uses 1 USGal/day. Runs on a Peltier Junction
Pile. Not really efficent, but extremely quiet.

Bruce in alaska
--
add a <2> before @

Don Kelly

2005-06-18, 11:25 pm

"Jesse Spencer" <jesseks@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:kNUse.21237$g5.2593@twister.nyroc.rr.com...

quote:

> zenboom wrote:
>
> If there is you could make refrigeration units that use no electricity
> and output some.

-------
Forget it. You are trying to take a thermodynamic process and then use a
reverse thermodynamic process. Net result is that the energy input is still
greater than the output. Net loss occurs. Fact of life sometimes called "no
free lunch" but more often called "conservation of energy".
--
Don Kelly
dhky@peeshaw.ca
remove the urine to answer

JoeSixPack

2005-07-02, 12:25 pm

"Bruce in Alaska" <bruceg@btpost.net> wrote in message
news:bruceg-E2D3E5.10495718062005@netnews.worldnet.att.net...

quote:

> In article <3bGdnawwR4ZggCnfRVn-pw@golden.net>,
> "John P Bengi" <JBengi (spamm)@(spamm) yahoo,com> wrote:
>
>
> I have a Thermoelectric Generator that is Propane in, 24Vdc 7amps out,
> no moving parts, and uses 1 USGal/day. Runs on a Peltier Junction
> Pile. Not really efficent, but extremely quiet.

What's the expected lifespan of the pile? Will it produce usable power from
waste heat? Is it worth the initial investment?

Bruce in Alaska

2005-07-03, 6:25 pm

In article <Y3wxe.89513$HI.86577@edtnps84>,
"JoeSixPack" <olegp@telus.net> wrote:

quote:

>
> What's the expected lifespan of the pile? Will it produce usable power from
> waste heat? Is it worth the initial investment?
>
>

Lifespan of the pile is basically indefinite. It will if the temperture
differential between the hot and cold sides is big enough. Initial
investment is very high. 240Watt/$3KUS or there abouts......

Bruce in alaska
--
add a <2> before @

Arnold Walker

2005-07-03, 6:25 pm

"Bruce in Alaska" <bruceg@btpost.net> wrote in message
news:bruceg-CE463C.11371703072005@netnews.att.net...

quote:

> In article <Y3wxe.89513$HI.86577@edtnps84>,
> "JoeSixPack" <olegp@telus.net> wrote:
>
from[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> Lifespan of the pile is basically indefinite. It will if the temperture
> differential between the hot and cold sides is big enough. Initial
> investment is very high. 240Watt/$3KUS or there abouts......
>
>
> Bruce in alaska
> --
> add a <2> before @

The UK military used Ricardo microsteam generators instead of batteries for
years.
To run their radios....all the way up until the 60's.
Can still get one of the war surplus unit at Preston steam Products.

quote:

>

ivan

2005-07-17, 12:25 pm

anyone got the contact details for Preston Steam Products?

thanks!

Arnold Walker

2005-07-18, 4:25 am

"ivan" <sales@navitron.org.uk> wrote in message
news:1121600934.799329.77280@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...

quote:

> anyone got the contact details for Preston Steam Products?
>
>
> thanks!

URL......www.prestonservices.co.uk
Located in Kent ,England.....

quote:

>

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