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Home > Archive > Alternative Power sources > July 2005 > Trickle charging a battery in enclosed space
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Trickle charging a battery in enclosed space
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| Ignoramus26555 2005-06-23, 6:25 pm |
| I have an onan DJE genset.
The 12V battery as well as the jerry cans with diesel fuel are stored
next to the genset, INSIDE a big plastic tote. The tote is closed with
a lockable lid. The electric wires, as well as fuel lines, go INSIDE
the tote.
You can see it at
http://igor.chudov.com/tmp/onan/Diesel/z02_Installed/
Note that the picture is obsolete and the battery is presently not ON
the tote, but is inside it.
I would like to fit a trickle charger inside the tote and keep the
battery fully charged at all times with household 110V current going
to the trickle charger.
The concern that I have is about "hydrogen buildup" and such. How big
of a deal is it, PRACTICALLY SPEAKING, in this particular application.
The tote is not airtight due to having openings for fuel and
12V electrical lines.
i
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"Ignoramus26555" <ignoramus26555@NOSPAM.26555.invalid> wrote in message
news:d9f0au$30e$0@pita.alt.net...
quote:
> I have an onan DJE genset.
>
> The 12V battery as well as the jerry cans with diesel fuel are stored
> next to the genset, INSIDE a big plastic tote. The tote is closed with
> a lockable lid. The electric wires, as well as fuel lines, go INSIDE
> the tote.
>
> You can see it at
>
> http://igor.chudov.com/tmp/onan/Diesel/z02_Installed/
>
> Note that the picture is obsolete and the battery is presently not ON
> the tote, but is inside it.
>
> I would like to fit a trickle charger inside the tote and keep the
> battery fully charged at all times with household 110V current going
> to the trickle charger.
>
> The concern that I have is about "hydrogen buildup" and such. How big
> of a deal is it, PRACTICALLY SPEAKING, in this particular application.
>
> The tote is not airtight due to having openings for fuel and
> 12V electrical lines.
>
> i
Some vents at roof should be enough to stop the Hydrogen from causing a
problem.
| |
| Ignoramus26555 2005-06-23, 6:25 pm |
| On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 12:00:35 -0700, SQLit <sqlit@qwest.net> wrote:
quote:
>
> "Ignoramus26555" <ignoramus26555@NOSPAM.26555.invalid> wrote in message
> news:d9f0au$30e$0@pita.alt.net...
>
> Some vents at roof should be enough to stop the Hydrogen from causing a
> problem.
That would let air in. How about vents on the walls of the tote,
almost next to the roof. Also, how big should they be? I would prefer
many little ones, to keep critters away.
i
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| Bruce in Alaska 2005-06-23, 6:25 pm |
| In article <d9f1hp$6dc$0@pita.alt.net>,
Ignoramus26555 <ignoramus26555@NOSPAM.26555.invalid> wrote:
quote:
> On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 12:00:35 -0700, SQLit <sqlit@qwest.net> wrote:
>
> That would let air in. How about vents on the walls of the tote,
> almost next to the roof. Also, how big should they be? I would prefer
> many little ones, to keep critters away.
>
> i
You want the vents to be at the High Point of the container as H2 is
very much lighter than air and will congegate at the High Point.
Use Screendoor Screen to keep the critters and bugs out. Put in
a PVC 2" pipe and cover the end of an 90 ell with screendoor screen
held on by a Stainless Steel Hose Clamp. Not Rocket Science, and really
not that big of a deal......
Bruce in alaska have you actually ever seen a battery explode...
you, yourself?......
--
add a <2> before @
| |
| Bruce in Alaska 2005-06-23, 11:25 pm |
| In article <d9f1hp$6dc$0@pita.alt.net>,
Ignoramus26555 <ignoramus26555@NOSPAM.26555.invalid> wrote:
quote:
> On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 12:00:35 -0700, SQLit <sqlit@qwest.net> wrote:
>
> That would let air in. How about vents on the walls of the tote,
> almost next to the roof. Also, how big should they be? I would prefer
> many little ones, to keep critters away.
>
> i
Just a followup to the discussion abut Batteries Exploding due to
Hydrogen Gas buildup in Wet Cell Lead/Acid Systems. In my informal
survey of local Mechanics, of both Auto, and Marine, there was actually
only ONE case where the mechanic actually witnessed a battery explode,
or saw the aftermath of an exploded battery. The sample size of my
survey was 8 guys, all with 30+ years in the field. They all had heard
the stories of such occurances, but like I stated above, only one had
ever witnessed personally the event or its direct aftermath. This leads
me to postulate that, this happenes a lot less than commonly accepted,
and that when it does happen, the battery in question is being "Savagely
Abused" at the time of the occurance.
Bruce in alaska
--
add a <2> before @
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| danny burstein 2005-06-23, 11:25 pm |
| In <bruceg-DE0E6E.12520123062005@netnews.worldnet.att.net> Bruce in Alaska <bruceg@btpost.net> writes:
quote:
>Just a followup to the discussion abut Batteries Exploding due to
>Hydrogen Gas buildup in Wet Cell Lead/Acid Systems. In my informal
>survey of local Mechanics, of both Auto, and Marine, there was actually
>only ONE case where the mechanic actually witnessed a battery explode,
>or saw the aftermath of an exploded battery.
Waving hand here:
About ten years ago I had one of the (short-lived)
Sears "dual start" car batteries. This was a nifty
arrangement where you actually had two separate 12V
batteries in one standard form, with one being something
like 3/4 capacity, the other 1/4.
Both parts were automatically charged up.
In the normal switch setting, your starter pulled
from the A section (the larger one). If you had
discharged it, you rotated the switch to B and
got enough to start running.
Well... I was at a gas station, no less... and had just
filled up the tank. Turned the ignition on. Kaboomsky!.
Took a very, very, careful look under the hood. Small
amount of damage. No apparent cracks or breaks in the
battery itself.
The car started ok a couple o fminutes later. I think,
but am no longer certain, that I switched to the B side.
Crossing my fingers I headed over to the nearest
Sears automotive where they gave me a regular replacement,
no questions asked...
(I later found out that in the interim they had stopped
selling these batteries due to related problems. For
a couple of years later a similar one was still available
from Interstate. I don't know if they shared OEM)
--
_____________________________________________________
Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key
dannyb@panix.com
[to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]
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| Charles Foot 2005-06-24, 4:25 am |
| Bruce in Alaska wrote:
quote:
> In article <d9f1hp$6dc$0@pita.alt.net>,
> Ignoramus26555 <ignoramus26555@NOSPAM.26555.invalid> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Just a followup to the discussion abut Batteries Exploding due to
> Hydrogen Gas buildup in Wet Cell Lead/Acid Systems. In my informal
> survey of local Mechanics, of both Auto, and Marine, there was actually
> only ONE case where the mechanic actually witnessed a battery explode,
> or saw the aftermath of an exploded battery. The sample size of my
> survey was 8 guys, all with 30+ years in the field. They all had heard
> the stories of such occurances, but like I stated above, only one had
> ever witnessed personally the event or its direct aftermath. This leads
> me to postulate that, this happenes a lot less than commonly accepted,
> and that when it does happen, the battery in question is being "Savagely
> Abused" at the time of the occurance.
>
>
> Bruce in alaska
I've seen the aftermath of a battery explosion - messy. I've also
subsequently experienced it first hand at close quarters. Was charging
a biggish BP Solar 12v. battery outside in the open air with the filler
caps removed. After it had been on charge for a couple of hours I leaned
over it to see if it was bubbling yet. I must have moved one of the
cables inadvertantly or did something that must have caused a spark.
BOOM!! For a second I was literally stunned. Then I realised what had
happened and became aware of the fact that I was covered in hot battery
acid .. my face was covered in it, my hair was full of it, and it was
trickling down my back. Fortunately there was a nearby water tank on a
stand with a tap on it. I ripped my clothes off and washed myself off.
This was a particularly cold winters day (Murphys Law in full swing)!
The explosion had ruptured one of my eardrums, ruined a perfectly good
jersey, and blew large chunks of battery way over the other side of the
road - over 50 metres away!
I was very lucky not to have been injured (eardrums grow back in a day
or so), and I now have a very healthy regard for hydrogen!
| |
| Ignoramus26555 2005-06-24, 4:25 am |
| On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 14:37:10 +1200, Charles Foot <chaz@equinet.co.nz> wrote:
quote:
> I've seen the aftermath of a battery explosion - messy. I've also
> subsequently experienced it first hand at close quarters. Was charging
> a biggish BP Solar 12v. battery outside in the open air with the filler
> caps removed. After it had been on charge for a couple of hours I leaned
> over it to see if it was bubbling yet. I must have moved one of the
> cables inadvertantly or did something that must have caused a spark.
> BOOM!! For a second I was literally stunned. Then I realised what had
> happened and became aware of the fact that I was covered in hot battery
> acid .. my face was covered in it, my hair was full of it, and it was
> trickling down my back. Fortunately there was a nearby water tank on a
> stand with a tap on it. I ripped my clothes off and washed myself off.
> This was a particularly cold winters day (Murphys Law in full swing)!
> The explosion had ruptured one of my eardrums, ruined a perfectly good
> jersey, and blew large chunks of battery way over the other side of the
> road - over 50 metres away!
>
> I was very lucky not to have been injured (eardrums grow back in a day
> or so), and I now have a very healthy regard for hydrogen!
Thanks, Bruce, Charles and others.
I have become convinced that I need to drill a few holes in the tote
to properly allow air to escape. Since trickle chargers charge
batteries very slowly (supplying only about 18 watts of power to
them), the hydrogen production rate will be pretty slow. A few holes
drilled in the tote should be enough.
Also, I have to wonder about something. You described a BATTERY
explosion. Not an explosion of hydrogen/air mix in the SOURROUNDING of
the battery. What exploded was located INSIDE the battery.
If so, then, I cannot see how making holes in the tote would prevent
buildup of gas inside the battery. It will, however, prevent buildup
of hydrogen in the tote.
i
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"Ignoramus26555" <ignoramus26555@NOSPAM.26555.invalid> wrote in message
news:8UKue.53451$Mb7.26536@fe26.usenetserver.com...
quote:
> On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 14:37:10 +1200, Charles Foot <chaz@equinet.co.nz>
> wrote:
>
>
> Thanks, Bruce, Charles and others.
>
> I have become convinced that I need to drill a few holes in the tote
> to properly allow air to escape. Since trickle chargers charge
> batteries very slowly (supplying only about 18 watts of power to
> them), the hydrogen production rate will be pretty slow. A few holes
> drilled in the tote should be enough.
>
> Also, I have to wonder about something. You described a BATTERY
> explosion. Not an explosion of hydrogen/air mix in the SOURROUNDING of
> the battery. What exploded was located INSIDE the battery.
>
> If so, then, I cannot see how making holes in the tote would prevent
> buildup of gas inside the battery. It will, however, prevent buildup
> of hydrogen in the tote.
>
> i
I feel compelled to put my .02 in. You don't want to leave your Onan battery
on a trickle charger. That will kill the battery in a short while. Your
battery needs to be on a "float charger". The float charger is a Constant
Voltage device set to about 13.6 volts for a 12 volt battery. The "run of
the mill" battery chargers output more voltage than this. A lab quality
(Lambda, Systron-Donner, H-P, etc) power supply set to 14.2 with a diode in
series with the battery(diode drops .6 volt) works well. On to battery
explosions. I was working at the car dealership and one of the drain
bramaged mechanics hooked jumper cables up reversed. I happened to be
looking in that direction. The fireball was 10-15 feet in diameter. The
explosion blew the top off the battery and soaked him in battery acid. As
his coworker was washing him off, I remember his clothes also melting off
him! James
| |
| Too_Many_Tools 2005-06-24, 4:25 am |
| I too have personally seen the aftermath of several batteries
exploding.
I can also tell you that you are VERY LUCKY.
A friend of mine lost his eyesight because of a battery explosion.
I suggest everyone take these safety warnings seriously.
TMT
| |
| Ignoramus11275 2005-06-24, 12:25 pm |
| On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 22:49:07 -0500, James <mustang3@cox.net> wrote:
quote:
>
> "Ignoramus26555" <ignoramus26555@NOSPAM.26555.invalid> wrote in message
> news:8UKue.53451$Mb7.26536@fe26.usenetserver.com...
> I feel compelled to put my .02 in. You don't want to leave your Onan battery
> on a trickle charger. That will kill the battery in a short while.
I am not so sure. Perhaps I misdescribed my chargers (I have 2). These
are "smart chargers" that turn OFF when the battery is full. Then they
periodically turn ON, briefly, and as soon as they "know" that the
battery is still full, they turn OFF again.
quote:
> Your
> battery needs to be on a "float charger". The float charger is a Constant
> Voltage device set to about 13.6 volts for a 12 volt battery. The "run of
> the mill" battery chargers output more voltage than this. A lab quality
> (Lambda, Systron-Donner, H-P, etc) power supply set to 14.2 with a diode in
> series with the battery(diode drops .6 volt) works well. On to battery
> explosions. I was working at the car dealership and one of the drain
> bramaged mechanics hooked jumper cables up reversed. I happened to be
> looking in that direction. The fireball was 10-15 feet in diameter. The
> explosion blew the top off the battery and soaked him in battery acid. As
> his coworker was washing him off, I remember his clothes also melting off
> him! James
That's very interesting and again, reminds me to be safety
minded. Still, I must say that it was a battery explosion and not
explosion of hydrogen/air mix near the battery.
i
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| Robert Morein 2005-06-24, 11:25 pm |
|
"Ignoramus11275" <ignoramus11275@NOSPAM.11275.invalid> wrote in message
news:etSue.19019$RW5.14724@fe77.usenetserver.com...
quote:
> On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 22:49:07 -0500, James <mustang3@cox.net> wrote:
charging[vbcol=seagreen]
filler[vbcol=seagreen]
leaned[vbcol=seagreen]
battery[vbcol=seagreen]
the[vbcol=seagreen]
battery[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> I am not so sure. Perhaps I misdescribed my chargers (I have 2). These
> are "smart chargers" that turn OFF when the battery is full. Then they
> periodically turn ON, briefly, and as soon as they "know" that the
> battery is still full, they turn OFF again.
>
Constant[vbcol=seagreen]
of[vbcol=seagreen]
in[vbcol=seagreen]
As[vbcol=seagreen]
off[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> That's very interesting and again, reminds me to be safety
> minded. Still, I must say that it was a battery explosion and not
> explosion of hydrogen/air mix near the battery.
>
> i
The evidence points in two directions.
The fireball is an air-fuel explosion, with the two thoroughly mixed.
Either the fireball ignited the hydrogen above the plates, or the reverse.
But given the limited volume of air space inside the battery, more explosive
impulse would come from the air-fuel mixture outside the battery; it's
dozens of cubic feet, as opposed to at most a fraction of a cubic foot of
air space above the plates.
In the submerged area, there is no ignition source, only the possibility of
arcing and heating.
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| nospam.clare.nce@sny.der.on.ca 2005-06-25, 4:25 am |
| On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 20:14:24 -0400, "Robert Morein"
<herethereeverywhere@nowhere.com> wrote:
quote:
>
quote:
>The evidence points in two directions.
>The fireball is an air-fuel explosion, with the two thoroughly mixed.
>Either the fireball ignited the hydrogen above the plates, or the reverse.
>But given the limited volume of air space inside the battery, more explosive
>impulse would come from the air-fuel mixture outside the battery; it's
>dozens of cubic feet, as opposed to at most a fraction of a cubic foot of
>air space above the plates.
>In the submerged area, there is no ignition source, only the possibility of
>arcing and heating.
>
I'll put my 2 cents (canadian) worth in here, as someone who has
caused and witnessed numerous "battery explosions"
I have seen them caused inside the battery, as well as outside.
First one I witnessed, and was involved in, happened when starting the
old 44 Massey on the farm as a young teenager. The battery was getting
old - an old pitch-top hard rubber affair, and we had been noticing
the ammeter flickering on occaision. After sitting for an hour over
lunch I went to restart it to go plowing, and there was a sharp
"PFEEW" and there was acid running down the side of the tractor. The
top was more or less in one piece, but all stretched out of shape -
all 4 sides were laying out (in more than 4 pieces) and the bottom was
split into shards like a broken window. When we looked at the remains
it was obvious there was a bad connection between one of the plate
clusters and the inter-cell link.
Next one was a student of mine, who right after a class on electrical
safety, and how to safely disconnect and reconnect a battery,
disconnected the positive terminal of his 67 Pontiac first, after
having worn the battery down by some extreme efforts to start the car.
He made a good notch in the wrench he was using when it touched
ground, and he was lucky to have the whole bottom of the battery blow
out - and no acid got on him or anyone else. This one was "lit"
externally, but even with the caps installed, the gas mixture inside
the cells exploded, with quite a bang.
There were several more over the decades - all "spontaneous", caused
either by a loose cable or an internal fault.
The last one I remember WAS my fault.A Motorcycle battery was on
charge on the workbench, and I was about 20 feet away removing an
exhaust component, using a "zip wheel" to cut off a clamp. The spark
stream from the wheel just happened to be pointed at the work-bench.
When THAT one went off, there was shrapnel and acid in all directions,
and even though it was the smallest battery I had seen blow up, it was
definiely the loudest and most spectacular.
| |
| JoeSixPack 2005-07-11, 11:25 pm |
|
"Bruce in Alaska" <bruceg@btpost.net> wrote in message
news:bruceg-DE0E6E.12520123062005@netnews.worldnet.att.net...
quote:
> In article <d9f1hp$6dc$0@pita.alt.net>,
> Ignoramus26555 <ignoramus26555@NOSPAM.26555.invalid> wrote:
>
>
> Just a followup to the discussion abut Batteries Exploding due to
> Hydrogen Gas buildup in Wet Cell Lead/Acid Systems. In my informal
> survey of local Mechanics, of both Auto, and Marine, there was actually
> only ONE case where the mechanic actually witnessed a battery explode,
> or saw the aftermath of an exploded battery. The sample size of my
> survey was 8 guys, all with 30+ years in the field. They all had heard
> the stories of such occurances, but like I stated above, only one had
> ever witnessed personally the event or its direct aftermath. This leads
> me to postulate that, this happenes a lot less than commonly accepted,
> and that when it does happen, the battery in question is being "Savagely
> Abused" at the time of the occurance.
There's nothing mythical about batteries exploding. As a kid, I was showered
with broken glass and sulfuric acid while touring a homepower system that
used banks of lead-acid plates in glass-jar cells. There was no obvious
source of ignition, but given the flammability of hydrogen gas, it wouldn't
have taken much of a spark.
I wasn't hurt, and thanks to fast action by my mom, washing my clothes in
baking soda, I managed to save them too.
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