Alternative Power sources - Vector inverter, integrated charger?

Author

Vector inverter, integrated charger?

Narrff

2005-07-16, 6:25 pm

Hello all,

I see that Best Buy has the Vector 1000W inverter (VEC049C) on sale
for $189 or so (although I see other online sources sell it cheaper). I
am thinking about pairing that up with a deep cycle battery or three
(parallel, but that's a different topic), simply so I can continue
working on my PC (perhaps with a few other small devices) when the
power goes out. To clarify, the power doesn't go out too often here,
but when it does, it usually takes hours to days for it to be restored.

My plan is to piece together a UPS for when the grid does go down,
hopefully being able to integrate the equipment I buy for that purpose
into a larger homepower setup when my finances aren't so tight (As soon
as I complete my contract, I intend to purchase a larger inverter,
charge controllers, and PV panels).

I need to purchase at least one deep cycle battery regardless, for
use with a trolling motor on a small boat. I figured I could also use
the battery to power an inverter, as well as a few 12V loads while it's
not in use driving the trolling motor.

To get to my question(s) :

1) The specs on the Best Buy site aren't very clear to me (and the
other sites don't say much either). I assume I will need a charger with
this unit, or is one integrated?

2) If I do need a charger, what brand/model would you recommend?

3) If anyone has had experience with this particular unit, what
pitfalls are there, if any, and what is your general opinion?

Thanks in advance,

Jeremiah D. Seitz
Omega Techware
http://www.omegatechware.net

Vaughn

2005-07-16, 11:25 pm

"Narrff" <google@omegatechware.net> wrote in message
news:1121544283.902687.87270@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

quote:

> 2) If I do need a charger, what brand/model would you recommend?
>

For a bulk charge, use any automotive battery charger. To maintain the
charge, use only a float charger that is specifically made for that purpose. A
cheap "trickle" charger is the most expensive of all because it is likely to fry
your battery in a year or so. I use the Battery Tender made by the Deltran
people http://www.batterytender.com/ . They are spendy, but I have never had
one give a bit of trouble. Harbor freight sells a float charger that they
sometimes put on sale for under ten dollars
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ct...temnumber=42292 . My
father has had one of those for two years. It maintains his hurricane battery
and it seems to do OK.

Vaughn

Narrff

2005-07-17, 12:25 pm

Vaughn,

Everything you said makes sense, and I have noted the URLs for
later perusal (thanks, btw).

As to the charging, I would prefer that the battery were charged in
situ, ie: when it is functioning as part of the UPS mentioned earlier,
but money being tight, a separate charger seems to be a good bet for
the time being. The battery tender seems like the best bet. Can I
assume that it handles bulk *and* float charging? That's what I got
from the site, but I just got back from the bar.

$50.00 versus $10.00 isn't too much of a stretch, considering that
your batteries are pretty much the most sensitive components of a
system, so even if I spend an extra $40 or so, I'd probably save many
times that amount in battery replacement.

Thanks,

Jeremiah D. Seitz
Omega Techware
http://www.omegatechware.net

RF Dude

2005-07-17, 12:25 pm

Do you want to make an UNINTERRUPTABLE PS, or simply an alternate means of
producing 120VAC? If you don't want uninterruptable, then the direction you
are discussing is OK. If you have an outage, you will unplug the computer
equipmen from the wall and plug it into the inverter.

If you want uninteruptable, then it is a different beast. Some thoughts:

1) Power everything from the inverter all the time. You will need a
rectifier/charger that can support the full DC current draw of the inverter.
You will also pay efficiency with the double conversion.
2) Using Utility power and switching to inverter in less than 100 ms. Your
inverter will have to be running all the time and ready to take the load
instantly or a type that can turn on immediately.

Good luck!

RF Dude.

Vaughn

2005-07-17, 6:25 pm

"Narrff" <google@omegatechware.net> wrote in message
news:1121586128.591068.119570@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

quote:

> The battery tender seems like the best bet. Can I
> assume that it handles bulk *and* float charging? That's what I got
> from the site, but I just got back from the bar.

It depends on the size of your battery, the depth of discharge, how much
time you have, and which of their several models you choose. For an occasional
heavy discharge with weeks and weeks of float time in between, you can use their
1.25 amp model and just do a manual bulk charge with a cheap 10 or 20 amp
automotive charger after a big power failure.

Vaughn

Narrff

2005-07-17, 11:25 pm

RF Dude,

Actually, that is an interesting question, and one that I hadn't
considered. After a bit of thought, I suppose the cheapest way would be
to run the PC from a regular UPS, then in the event of an outage, use
the few additional minutes of uptime to close my files and shut down
the PC. From there, I can either switch the plugs from the 'regular'
UPS to the larger backup, or wire a junction box with a three way
switch to make it easier.

In light of that, I suppose the more accurate term would be a
battery backup, rather than a UPS. Thanks for the clarification!

Solution #1 would be an option, but as you say, the losses are too
high. #2 would also be an option, but the cost to add that
functionality is prohibitive enough that I'd rather go manual. The
system is meant to handle fairly infrequent outages, so the 'bother' of
manually switching loads wouldn't be that much of one.

Thanks for the input,

Jeremiah D. Seitz
Omega Techware
http://www.omegatechware.net

Narrff

2005-07-17, 11:25 pm

Vaughn,

At the moment, I don't know the capacity of the battery I plan to
buy. All I know is that it *is* a deep cycle, and it is physically
larger than most starter batteries. I couldn't locate an AH rating on
the case, so I've either overlooked it, or need to contact the
manufacturer.

I already have 3-4 auto chargers, so paired with the float charger,
that seems the way to go.

In a somewhat related topic, how many batteries* can I connect in
parallel without running into major problems? My first thought is to
build a box to contain the batteries, with more or less permanent
copper bus connections, essentially making the 2-3 batteries into a
larger capacity unit. Would there be any problems in charging the
entire unit, or would I need to charge each one individually?

* - of the same model and age, I have been reading the debates

The idea of using the batteries for both the trolling motor and the
backup is looking less and less practical, so from this point on, I'll
just focus on the (more on topic) backup function.

Thanks again!

Jeremiah D. Seitz
Omega Techware
http://www.omegatechware.net

Vaughn

2005-07-17, 11:25 pm

"Narrff" <google@omegatechware.net> wrote in message
news:1121639517.199246.51600@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

quote:

>
> * - of the same model and age, I have been reading the debates

The bottom line is, it is not a great idea to parallel a lot of batteries.
That said, I have been successfully operating a bank of 4 paralled batteries for
several years now. I separate them once a year for individual testing, but
otherwise they are always together. They get charged daily with my (supposedly)
100 watts or so of PV and a magic little Trace controller.

Vaughn

Ulysses

2005-07-18, 6:25 pm

"Narrff" <google@omegatechware.net> wrote in message
news:1121586128.591068.119570@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

quote:

> Vaughn,
>
> Everything you said makes sense, and I have noted the URLs for
> later perusal (thanks, btw).
>
> As to the charging, I would prefer that the battery were charged in
> situ, ie: when it is functioning as part of the UPS mentioned earlier,

I just want to make sure I understand what you are saying here: you are NOT
planning on charging the batteries with the batteries, are you?

Having gotten that out of my system I have a Vector Smart Charger (40 amp
model) that I really like that I use to charge two 220 Ah golf cart
batteries (6 volt, in series). They have smaller models too. Mine cost
about $90 at Walmart. I've seen the smaller ones on closeout at Target.
The Smart Charger may eliminate the need for a float charger as it will
completely stop charging the batteries when they are fully charged, check
the state of charge, and come back on when needed. I had a standard
"Automatic" 15 amp charger and it always shut off when the batteries were
only about 70 per cent charged. If you do decide to use a float charger I
suggest you check the electrolyte level in your batteries often. I had one
and after a few weeks (the instructions said "connect it and forget it" the
level was dangerously low.

Do you have PepBoys auto parts stores there? Right now (South California)
they have a Vector 800 watt SST inverter for $60 and a 1200 watt SST for
around $110. These inverters do not have built-in battery chargers as they
are lower end MSW inverters.

quote:

> but money being tight, a separate charger seems to be a good bet for
> the time being. The battery tender seems like the best bet. Can I
> assume that it handles bulk *and* float charging? That's what I got
> from the site, but I just got back from the bar.
>
> $50.00 versus $10.00 isn't too much of a stretch, considering that
> your batteries are pretty much the most sensitive components of a
> system, so even if I spend an extra $40 or so, I'd probably save many
> times that amount in battery replacement.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jeremiah D. Seitz
> Omega Techware
> http://www.omegatechware.net
>

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