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| Rod Speed 2005-07-24, 9:05 pm |
| Another chapter in the sage of using butter again instead of marg.
The main reason I stopped using it was because its too hard to be
convenient out of the fridge, and I dont like the purported softer butters.
So I thought I'd try keeping it out of the fridge in winter. Its winter here,
and it turns out to not be viable either, its still too hard. Thats with a room
temp of about 20C, 70F, and it gets lower than that on the coldest nights.
One obvious possibility is to use one of those very small camping fridges,
just for the butter and set it to the temperature thats ideal for the butter.
Those are normally peltier devices and can cool and warm.
Bit of an overkill just for the butter, but who cares,
it should last for decades, so the cost is pretty trivial.
The best ones are 12V and mains power too.
| |
|
| I've kept butter out of the fridge during hot Illinois summers (100f
was uncommon but not impossible) with no adverse effects to either the
butter or myself. During colder temps one can microwave the butter
for a few seconds to soften.
+++++++++++++
Reply to the list as I do not publish an email address to USENET.
This practice has cut my spam by more than 95%.
Of course, I did have to abandon a perfectly good email account...
| |
| val189 2005-07-24, 9:05 pm |
|
Yeah...I know it ain't frugal but...there's a gadget which claims to
peel off a shaving of butter from a stick right from the fridge - in
fact, I think you store the whole stick in it. Supposedly, it's thin
enough to be spreadable, so it's touted as a diet maneuver too. Think
I saw it in one of the better kitchen gadget catalogs.
Speaking of catalogs, I think I've stemmed the tide of junk mail - at
least I've managed to cancel a ton of catalogs by calling the toll free
number and pleading 'jammed mailbox'.
| |
| Rod Speed 2005-07-24, 9:05 pm |
| Wooly <nobody@nun.ya> wrote
> I've kept butter out of the fridge during hot Illinois
> summers (100f was uncommon but not impossible)
> with no adverse effects to either the butter or myself.
Didnt work here last summer, much too runny.
My temps are similar, tho the house doesnt normally
get quite that high, I normally turn the swamp cooler
on when the room temp is about 32C, 90F
> During colder temps one can microwave
> the butter for a few seconds to soften.
I cant get that to work very well. For some reason it ends up
runny inside, still too hard outside. What heat setting do you use ?
| |
|
| On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 06:38:39 +1000, "Rod Speed" <rod_speed@yahoo.com>
spewed forth :
>
>I cant get that to work very well. For some reason it ends up
>runny inside, still too hard outside. What heat setting do you use ?
>
I've got a 1200w nuker. I put a stick of butter on its end on a
microwavable plate, nuke for 5 secs, then over-end it and nuke for 5
more. The center of the stick softens before the ends so it may
collapse. Use a biggish plate if you don't want a mess.
+++++++++++++
Reply to the list as I do not publish an email address to USENET.
This practice has cut my spam by more than 95%.
Of course, I did have to abandon a perfectly good email account...
| |
|
| On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 04:20:55 +1000, "Rod Speed" <rod_speed@yahoo.com>
spewed forth :
Another trick for summer is a "butter crock". Its a small glazed
truncated cone crock that sits upended in a saucer of water. Pack the
crock with butter, store it open end down in the saucer. It should
stay cool enough through evaporative cooling to prevent the butter
getting runny. Change the water regularly, of course.
+++++++++++++
Reply to the list as I do not publish an email address to USENET.
This practice has cut my spam by more than 95%.
Of course, I did have to abandon a perfectly good email account...
| |
| Rod Speed 2005-07-24, 9:05 pm |
| Wooly <nobody@nun.ya> wrote
> Rod Speed rod_speed@yahoo.com wrote
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
> I've got a 1200w nuker. I put a stick of butter on its end on a
> microwavable plate, nuke for 5 secs, then over-end it and nuke
> for 5 more. The center of the stick softens before the ends so
> it may collapse. Use a biggish plate if you don't want a mess.
OK, part of the obvious difference is that I just want enough
for a single slice of toast or slice of bread at a time.
Really doesnt work very well for that situation.
And since summer doesnt work left out either,
makes more sense to have a dedicated butter
temp fridge that both heats and cools fully auto.
Its gunna consume bugger all power.
| |
| Rod Speed 2005-07-24, 9:05 pm |
| Wooly <nobody@nun.ya> wrote
> Rod Speed <rod_speed@yahoo.com> wrote
> Another trick for summer is a "butter crock". Its a small glazed
> truncated cone crock that sits upended in a saucer of water. Pack the
> crock with butter, store it open end down in the saucer. It should
> stay cool enough through evaporative cooling to prevent the butter
> getting runny. Change the water regularly, of course.
Those did get used in pre fridge days here, but
dont work that well in the hottest weather here.
I think it makes a lot more sense to go a lot more hi tech
now and have a dedicated butter fridge/warmer instead.
| |
|
| We don't use butter anymore, we use Tahini. Tahini is sometimes refered
to as sesame butter. Great on toast, rice, salads, and good for you too.
Comes in a can and no refrigeration necessary. Ingredients: sesame seeds.
Q
| |
| Logan Shaw 2005-07-24, 9:05 pm |
| Rod Speed wrote:
> Wooly <nobody@nun.ya> wrote
>
>
>
[color=darkred]
> Those did get used in pre fridge days here, but
> dont work that well in the hottest weather here.
Here's one idea:
During the part of the year where the butter does OK outside
the fridge, leave it outside, and the problem is solved.
During the rest of the year, when it's too hot to leave the
butter out for fear of melting it, store it in the fridge,
but take some out and leave it on the counter for 30 minutes
or an hour or whatever it takes to soften sufficiently.
Since by definition it's hotter during that time, it should
soften reasonably quickly. Takes a little advance planning,
but not _that_ much.
Also, sometimes you can avoid the problem. For instance, when
I make buttered toast, I put a few pats of refrigerator-cold
butter on the bread, then put it in the toaster oven on a low
temp for 30 second or something. The butter softens a bit,
and I spread it around a tad. Then I might do another 30
seconds and spread it again if it hasn't become spreadable by
that point. If I'm making buttered toast, I don't need the
butter to be soft if I use this procedure.
Then yet another approach is to buy a Butter Butler, which holds
a stick of butter and forces it out through a thin slot, giving
you supposedly paper-thin ribbon of butter. If it really is
as paper-thin as they claim, it should soften quickly due to
increased surface area. I haven't actually tried one of these
myself, but one of the local TV news shows did one of those
"Does It Work?" segments (where they test some gadget every week
and see if it lives up to its claims), and they concluded it
does indeed spread butter really thin, although it might be a
bit of a plain to clean.
One final idea is this: in the summer, when it's too hot to
leave the butter out, put the butter in the fridge during
the day, but when you go to bed, take it out and put it on
a counter top. And when you wake up, use whatever you need
for breakfast, and then put it back in the fridge for the day.
Hopefully that should maintain some sort of balance.
- Logan
| |
| Rod Speed 2005-07-24, 9:05 pm |
| Q <hugemoth@access4less.net> wrote:
> We don't use butter anymore, we use Tahini. Tahini is sometimes refered to as
> sesame butter. Great on toast, rice, salads, and good for you too. Comes in a
> can and no refrigeration necessary. Ingredients: sesame seeds.
Thats really just another form of marg.
I dont care about the health stuff, just the taste,
and nothing really tastes the same as real butter.
Even the butter softened with canola which is soft
enough to be spreadable in winter doesnt taste the same.
I could use olive oil like the wogs do, but dont care for
it with toast and marmade or salami sandwitches either.
| |
| Rod Speed 2005-07-24, 9:05 pm |
| Logan Shaw <lshaw-usenet@austin.rr.com> wrote
> Rod Speed wrote
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
> Here's one idea:
> During the part of the year where the butter does OK outside
> the fridge, leave it outside, and the problem is solved.
Yeah, thats what I have been doing this year, but it
hasnt been all that long between too hot and too cold.
> During the rest of the year, when it's too hot to leave the
> butter out for fear of melting it, store it in the fridge,
> but take some out and leave it on the counter for 30 minutes
> or an hour or whatever it takes to soften sufficiently.
Trouble is that my main use of butter is first thing
after I get up, for what pretends to be breakfast,
just a single very thick slice of toast, as thick as will
go in the wide slot toaster and so that isnt feasible.
> Since by definition it's hotter during that time, it should soften reasonably
> quickly. Takes a little advance planning, but not _that_ much.
Not really practical tho, see above.
> Also, sometimes you can avoid the problem. For instance, when I make buttered
> toast, I put a few pats of refrigerator-cold
> butter on the bread, then put it in the toaster oven on a low
> temp for 30 second or something. The butter softens a bit, and I spread it
> around a tad. Then I might do another 30 seconds and spread it again if it
> hasn't become spreadable by that point.
Sure but I use a vertical toaster, so that wont work.
> If I'm making buttered toast, I don't need the butter to be soft if I use this
> procedure.
> Then yet another approach is to buy a Butter Butler, which holds
> a stick of butter and forces it out through a thin slot, giving
> you supposedly paper-thin ribbon of butter. If it really is
> as paper-thin as they claim, it should soften quickly due to
> increased surface area. I haven't actually tried one of these
> myself, but one of the local TV news shows did one of those
> "Does It Work?" segments (where they test some gadget every week
> and see if it lives up to its claims), and they concluded it
> does indeed spread butter really thin, although it might be a
> bit of a plain to clean.
Yeah, might be viable.
> One final idea is this: in the summer, when it's too hot to
> leave the butter out, put the butter in the fridge during
> the day, but when you go to bed, take it out and put it on
> a counter top. And when you wake up, use whatever you need
> for breakfast, and then put it back in the fridge for the day.
> Hopefully that should maintain some sort of balance.
My superficial reaction is that its likely to go runny
overnight. And doesnt fix the winter problem, tho I
spose a bulb in a box would be good enough for winter.
| |
| Walter R. 2005-07-24, 9:05 pm |
| You will never again have to worry about the consistency of butter, if you
ban it from your kitchen. Butter is bad for your health.
Problem solved
--
Walter
www.rationality.net
-
"Rod Speed" <rod_speed@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3k7j09Fsrlu0U1@individual.net...
> Another chapter in the sage of using butter again instead of marg.
>
> The main reason I stopped using it was because its too hard to be
> convenient out of the fridge, and I dont like the purported softer
> butters.
>
> So I thought I'd try keeping it out of the fridge in winter. Its winter
> here,
> and it turns out to not be viable either, its still too hard. Thats with a
> room
> temp of about 20C, 70F, and it gets lower than that on the coldest nights.
>
> One obvious possibility is to use one of those very small camping fridges,
> just for the butter and set it to the temperature thats ideal for the
> butter.
>
> Those are normally peltier devices and can cool and warm.
>
> Bit of an overkill just for the butter, but who cares,
> it should last for decades, so the cost is pretty trivial.
>
> The best ones are 12V and mains power too.
>
| |
|
| On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 03:27:04 GMT, "Walter R." <wer25@example.com>
spewed forth :
>You will never again have to worry about the consistency of butter, if you
>ban it from your kitchen. Butter is bad for your health.
Since when? I saw a study several years back that showed the various
(natural) fats in butter are substantially better for a body than the
(fake) fats in all but a very few margarine products.
+++++++++++++
Reply to the list as I do not publish an email address to USENET.
This practice has cut my spam by more than 95%.
Of course, I did have to abandon a perfectly good email account...
| |
| Barbara Bomberger 2005-07-24, 9:05 pm |
| On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 04:20:55 +1000, "Rod Speed" <rod_speed@yahoo.com>
wrote:
>Another chapter in the sage of using butter again instead of marg.
>
>The main reason I stopped using it was because its too hard to be
>convenient out of the fridge, and I dont like the purported softer butters.
>
>So I thought I'd try keeping it out of the fridge in winter. Its winter here,
>and it turns out to not be viable either, its still too hard. Thats with a room
>temp of about 20C, 70F, and it gets lower than that on the coldest nights.
>
>One obvious possibility is to use one of those very small camping fridges,
>just for the butter and set it to the temperature thats ideal for the butter.
>
>Those are normally peltier devices and can cool and warm.
>
>Bit of an overkill just for the butter, but who cares,
>it should last for decades, so the cost is pretty trivial.
>
>The best ones are 12V and mains power too.
Rod, I keep butter on the table at all times, no matter the weather.
I will grant you that we are more than one, so "brick" doesnt last
as long for us. We have never had a problem.
>
| |
| ~^Johnny^~ 2005-07-24, 9:05 pm |
| -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 10:04:58 +1000, "Rod Speed" <rod_speed@yahoo.com>
wrote:
>I could use olive oil like the wogs do, but dont care for
>it with toast and marmade or salami sandwitches either.
>
Extra Virgin Olive (EVO) oil is better, because it is lower in
polyunsaturates and higher in monounsaturates. It has a much longer
shelf life than butter. Virgin Coconut Oil (VCO) is another one of
my favorites.
But nothing tastes like real butter, so I use that too...
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--
-john
wide-open at throttle dot info
~~~~~~~~
The time to repair the roof is when the sun is shining
- JFK
~~~~~~~~
| |
| The Real Bev 2005-07-24, 9:05 pm |
| Rod Speed wrote:
>
> OK, part of the obvious difference is that I just want enough
> for a single slice of toast or slice of bread at a time.
>
> Really doesnt work very well for that situation.
>
> And since summer doesnt work left out either,
> makes more sense to have a dedicated butter
> temp fridge that both heats and cools fully auto.
>
> Its gunna consume bugger all power.
Older refrigerators like my mom's 197x model have a butter compartment which
is warmer than the rest of the refrigerator. Must be some health department
ruling that keeps them from being made now.
The mills of god...
--
Cheers. Bev
==========================================================
It's not true that Lucas, in 1947, tried to get Parliament
to repeal Ohm's Law. They withdrew their efforts when they
met too much resistance.
| |
| Rod Speed 2005-07-24, 9:05 pm |
| Walter R. <wer25@example.com> wrote
> You will never again have to worry about the consistency of butter, if you ban
> it from your kitchen.
Duh.
> Butter is bad for your health.
So are the alternatives except eating
the toast dry, no spread at all. No thanks.
> Problem solved
Nope.
[color=darkred]
| |
| Rod Speed 2005-07-24, 9:05 pm |
| Barbara Bomberger <barbarabomberger@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 04:20:55 +1000, "Rod Speed" <rod_speed@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
>
> Rod, I keep butter on the table at all times, no matter the weather.
> I will grant you that we are more than one, so "brick"
> doesnt last as long for us. We have never had a problem.
Likely your place doesnt get as hot in the summer, or as cold in the winter
either.
Its not too bad in the winter and currently I do what someone else said
with the toast, drag shavings off the block with a knife and let it warm up
on the toast until is spreadable, but that doesnt work for the sandwitches.
| |
| ~^Johnny^~ 2005-07-24, 9:05 pm |
| -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 03:27:04 GMT, "Walter R." <wer25@example.com>
wrote:
>You will never again have to worry about the consistency of butter,
>if you ban it from your kitchen. Butter is bad for your health.
Margarine is worse. Even the new "no trans-fat" spreads are made of
highly refined oils, and chemicals galore. Highly processed
polyunsaturates are just as bad as hydrogenated oils.
But never mind butter... got milk? ;->
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--
-john
wide-open at throttle dot info
~~~~~~~~
The time to repair the roof is when the sun is shining
- JFK
~~~~~~~~
| |
| ~^Johnny^~ 2005-07-24, 9:05 pm |
| -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 04:30:35 GMT, Wooly <nobody@nun.ya> wrote:
>On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 03:27:04 GMT, "Walter R." <wer25@example.com>
>spewed forth :
>
>
>Since when? I saw a study several years back that showed the
>various (natural) fats in butter are substantially better for a body
>than the (fake) fats in all but a very few margarine products.
That is correct. Butter is also a complete fat. It runs the gamut
from short to long chain, polyunsaturated, monounsaturated, and
saturated fatty acids.
http://webexhibits.org/butter/compounds-fatty.html
http://www.mercola.com/2001/mar/31/butter.htm
http://www.dldewey.com/hydroil.htm
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--
-john
wide-open at throttle dot info
~~~~~~~~
The time to repair the roof is when the sun is shining
- JFK
~~~~~~~~
| |
| Jim Vatunz 2005-07-24, 9:05 pm |
| On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 15:38:55 +1000, "Rod Speed" <rod_speed@yahoo.com>
wrote:
>Barbara Bomberger <barbarabomberger@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>Likely your place doesnt get as hot in the summer, or as cold in the winter
>either.
>
>Its not too bad in the winter and currently I do what someone else said
>with the toast, drag shavings off the block with a knife and let it warm up
>on the toast until is spreadable, but that doesnt work for the sandwitches.
>
On the few occasions i've been lucky enough to have butter at home, i
prefer to slice it like cheese and just lay it on the bread. Usually
followed with a nice little layer of vegemite. ;)
i don't see anything frugal in the peltier approach. Those things chew
through a fair bit of power for what they achieve, or spoken another
way, they're not very efficient devices.
Maybe finding a small insulator box and storing the butter in that in
the fridge may strike a fair balance between the cold fridge time and
the warmer kitchen time.
--
http://members.iinet.net.au/~farmerjim/log/log.html
It's boring but it's something.
| |
|
| I gotta say that buying a peltier fridge thing just to keep a pat of=20
butter at the right temperature to butter one slice of toast in the=20
morning is the most wasteful, trivial abuse of ressources and energy=20
that I have heard of for a long time.
A bit like the person that told me he bought a fridge just to keep his=20
bottled water in so he would be sure not to run out of chilled water in=20
summer...
For your toast I don't really understand your problem - I use a butter=20
knife, scrape of butter from the brick and put it on the toast. By the=20
time I have opened the jam jar the butter is half melted and ready to=20
spread.....
For sandwiches, cut your "brick" into several smaller bricks - this way=20
the temperature change you will need to apply will be minimised. When=20
doing sandwiches you could take your smaller piece of butter out of the=20
fridge a half hour before (in summer) - it will warm quicker than a=20
bigger block and in winter leave it out all the time - put your butter=20
pat over your mug of tea/coffee, or over your toaster when you want to=20
heat it up, works well too.
(By the way, most fridges have door compartments that are slightly=20
warmer than the rest of the fridge)
(And then they wonder why those of us trying to keep our home planet in=20
a reasonable state for our kids end up pessimist!?)
Mel
Rod Speed a =E9crit :
> Another chapter in the sage of using butter again instead of marg.
>=20
> The main reason I stopped using it was because its too hard to be
> convenient out of the fridge, and I dont like the purported softer butt=
ers.
>=20
> So I thought I'd try keeping it out of the fridge in winter. Its winter=
here,
> and it turns out to not be viable either, its still too hard. Thats wit=
h a room
> temp of about 20C, 70F, and it gets lower than that on the coldest nigh=
ts.
>=20
> One obvious possibility is to use one of those very small camping fridg=
es,
> just for the butter and set it to the temperature thats ideal for the b=
utter.
>=20
> Those are normally peltier devices and can cool and warm.
>=20
> Bit of an overkill just for the butter, but who cares,
> it should last for decades, so the cost is pretty trivial.
>=20
> The best ones are 12V and mains power too.=20
>=20
>=20
| |
| Rod Speed 2005-07-24, 9:05 pm |
| The Real Bev <bashley@myrealbox.com> wrote
> Rod Speed wrote
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
> Older refrigerators like my mom's 197x model have a butter
> compartment which is warmer than the rest of the refrigerator.
Yeah, my 195x does. It doesnt work very well on that tho.
> Must be some health department ruling
> that keeps them from being made now.
Nope, some still do. It aint frugal buying one for that tho.
> The mills of god...
There is no god, just an endless variety of
crutches for pathetically inadequate 'minds'
| |
| Rod Speed 2005-07-24, 9:05 pm |
| Jim Vatunz <rot13.snezrewvz@vvarg.arg.nh> wrote:
> On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 15:38:55 +1000, "Rod Speed" <rod_speed@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
[color=darkred]
> On the few occasions i've been lucky enough to have butter at
> home, i prefer to slice it like cheese and just lay it on the bread.
Yeah, and you have the layers of blubber to show for that approach |-)
> Usually followed with a nice little layer of vegemite. ;)
Down, boy, there are clearly children reading in here.
> i don't see anything frugal in the peltier approach. Those things
> chew through a fair bit of power for what they achieve, or
> spoken another way, they're not very efficient devices.
They dont need to be very efficient if the device is well insulated.
> Maybe finding a small insulator box and storing the butter
> in that in the fridge may strike a fair balance between the
> cold fridge time and the warmer kitchen time.
Dunno, I keep the fridge pretty cold, basically so the beer is cold
enough, and its likely that even a well insulated box will be about
as cold inside when I get up in the morning as inside the fridge.
Guess what would work is a well insulated box with a small incandescent
bulb inside it tho, inside the fridge, so it works all year round.
Brilliant, you're worth your weight in blubber |-)
I damned near bought the fridge/warmer
today too, if I had, I'd have to kill you now |-(
| |
| Rod Speed 2005-07-24, 9:05 pm |
| Mel <melodie@pasdespam.chezmoi> wrote
> I gotta say that buying a peltier fridge thing just to keep a pat of butter at
> the right temperature to butter one slice of toast in the morning
Wasnt talking about one pat, stupid. It would be much more
viable effort wise to keep an entire bar of butter at the right temp.
> is the most wasteful, trivial abuse of ressources and energy that I have heard
> of for a long time.
You really need to get those ears tested then.
> A bit like the person that told me he bought a fridge just to keep his bottled
> water in so he would be sure not to run out of chilled water in summer...
Nope, nothing like, since that works in the fridge fine.
> For your toast I don't really understand your problem - I use a butter knife,
> scrape of butter from the brick and put it on the toast. By the time I have
> opened the jam jar the butter is half melted and ready to spread.....
That isnt viable in summer, the butter straight out of the fridge is too hard.
> For sandwiches, cut your "brick" into several smaller bricks - this
> way the temperature change you will need to apply will be minimised.
Still not viable with butter out of the fridge.
> When doing sandwiches you could take your smaller piece of butter out of the
> fridge a half hour before (in summer)
Sure, but that wont work in winter.
> - it will warm quicker than a bigger block and in winter leave it out all the
> time
Too hard to spread.
> - put your butter pat over your mug of tea/coffee,
Dont bother with either. Just drink tap water.
> or over your toaster when you want to heat it up, works well too.
Wont work for the sandwiches.
> (By the way, most fridges have door compartments that are slightly warmer than
> the rest of the fridge)
Yep, but thats still too hard. Looks like the best
approach is an insulated thing in the fridge with a
low wattage bulb in it to get the temperature right.
Thats why I asked, to get a good idea like that.
> (And then they wonder why those of us trying to keep our home planet in a
> reasonable state for our kids end up pessimist!?)
'they' had best do the decent thing and shoot themselves.
[color=darkred]
> Rod Speed wrote
| |
|
| In article <42df57db$0$15053$626a14ce@news.free.fr>,
Mel <melodie@pasdespam.chezmoi> wrote:
> I gotta say that buying a peltier fridge thing just to keep a pat of
> butter at the right temperature to butter one slice of toast in the
> morning is the most wasteful, trivial abuse of ressources and energy
> that I have heard of for a long time.
Wait until you come across the current trends in <cough> "gracious" and
luxury kitchens. It may not get worse, but the field is definitely
growing.
..max
| |
| Jim Vatunz 2005-07-24, 9:05 pm |
| On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 18:56:26 +1000, "Rod Speed" <rod_speed@yahoo.com>
wrote:
>Jim Vatunz <rot13.snezrewvz@vvarg.arg.nh> wrote:
>
>
>Yeah, and you have the layers of blubber to show for that approach |-)
8*)
>
>
>Down, boy, there are clearly children reading in here.
Better warn those who've never experienced it to spread it thin.
About 10% of peanut butter proportions is enough.
>
>
>They dont need to be very efficient if the device is well insulated.
>
>
>Dunno, I keep the fridge pretty cold, basically so the beer is cold
>enough, and its likely that even a well insulated box will be about
>as cold inside when I get up in the morning as inside the fridge.
>
>Guess what would work is a well insulated box with a small incandescent
>bulb inside it tho, inside the fridge, so it works all year round.
Yeah i thought of the bulb but also thought you may have considered
using some resistance wire for a heater element. In hindsight a bulb
is vastly easier and is a simple job to swap wattages to achieve the
ideal temp..
>
>Brilliant, you're worth your weight in blubber |-)
I suppose that's why i rarely get the treat of butter.
>
>I damned near bought the fridge/warmer
>today too, if I had, I'd have to kill you now |-(
>
Don't worry there must be plenty of others who want to. ;)
--
http://members.iinet.net.au/~farmerjim/log/log.html
It's boring but it's something.
| |
| Bill 2 2005-07-24, 9:05 pm |
|
"The Real Bev" <bashley@myrealbox.com> wrote in message
news:42DF3203.DB316456@myrealbox.com...
> Rod Speed wrote:
>
> Older refrigerators like my mom's 197x model have a butter compartment
> which
> is warmer than the rest of the refrigerator. Must be some health
> department
> ruling that keeps them from being made now.
>
> The mills of god...
My 1977 model had a butter heater compartment. Seemed kind of wasteful
having a heater in the cooled compartment.
| |
| Bill 2 2005-07-24, 9:05 pm |
|
"~^Johnny^~" <nospam@gyrogearloose.com> wrote in message
news:u7iud1h53b9cjmfq271hjdfvq3aonppddl@4ax.com...
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 03:27:04 GMT, "Walter R." <wer25@example.com>
> wrote:
>
>
> Margarine is worse. Even the new "no trans-fat" spreads are made of
> highly refined oils, and chemicals galore. Highly processed
> polyunsaturates are just as bad as hydrogenated oils.
>
> But never mind butter... got milk? ;->
Think of all the steroids they feed the cows.
| |
| KnotNow@HotPOP.com 2005-07-24, 9:05 pm |
| We must be truly blessed if the consistency of our butter takes up so
much of our time!
For a little higher price (for the air!), you can buy 'whipped butter'
which spreads just fine at refrigerator temperature. Or make your own.
On Wed, 20 Jul 2005 19:34:49 GMT, Wooly <nobody@nun.ya> wrote:
>I've kept butter out of the fridge during hot Illinois summers (100f
>was uncommon but not impossible) with no adverse effects to either the
>butter or myself. During colder temps one can microwave the butter
>for a few seconds to soften.
'Hell' is a relative term
| |
| Dave Hinz 2005-07-24, 9:05 pm |
| On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 03:27:04 GMT, Walter R. <wer25@example.com> wrote:
> You will never again have to worry about the consistency of butter, if you
> ban it from your kitchen. Butter is bad for your health.
Well, I've got to die from something; it might as well be food that I
like.
> Problem solved
Well, it might not make me live longer, but it would certainly seem like
it. Me, I'll keep eating butter and all the other stuff I feel like,
and given that my total cholesterol is in the 150's, apparently I'm not
hurting as a result of enjoying it.
Oh, I drink whole milk too. Just so you know. Nothing better than
nearly-ice-cold whole milk.
Dave Hinz
| |
| Dave Hinz 2005-07-24, 9:05 pm |
| On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 13:30:52 GMT, Bill 2 <asdf@asdf.com> wrote:
>
> "~^Johnny^~" <nospam@gyrogearloose.com> wrote in message
> news:u7iud1h53b9cjmfq271hjdfvq3aonppddl@4ax.com...
[color=darkred]
> Think of all the steroids they feed the cows.
Think of providing a cite to a credible, non-alarmist-nutjob-whacko
site.
| |
| Barbara Bomberger 2005-07-24, 9:05 pm |
| On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 07:40:10 +1000, "Rod Speed" <rod_speed@yahoo.com>
wrote:
>Wooly <nobody@nun.ya> wrote
>
>
>
>
>OK, part of the obvious difference is that I just want enough
>for a single slice of toast or slice of bread at a time.
>
>Really doesnt work very well for that situation.
>
>And since summer doesnt work left out either,
>makes more sense to have a dedicated butter
>temp fridge that both heats and cools fully auto.
Well, I have some small pottery crocks that are butter dishes, that we
leave out all the time. Could you do something like that only fill it
half full and then nuke it for a few secs
The crock works great in the summer, I dont use a plate any more
>
>Its gunna consume bugger all power.
>
| |
| Rod Speed 2005-07-24, 9:05 pm |
|
Bill 2 <asdf@asdf.com> wrote
> The Real Bev <bashley@myrealbox.com> wrote
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
> My 1977 model had a butter heater compartment. Seemed kind of wasteful having
> a heater in the cooled compartment.
Sure, but it is the most efficient way to keep butter at the correct temp
and if the compartment is well insulated, it shouldnt take much power.
The main advantage of having it in the fridge
is that the same thing works year round.
And is going to be more efficient than a dedicated butter fridge/warmer.
| |
| Rod Speed 2005-07-24, 9:05 pm |
| Barbara Bomberger <barbarabomberger@hotmail.com> wrote
> Rod Speed <rod_speed@yahoo.com> wrote
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
> Well, I have some small pottery crocks that are butter dishes,
> that we leave out all the time. Could you do something like that
> only fill it half full and then nuke it for a few secs
I havent found that nuking butter works very well. For some
reason it goes runny inside before the outside is soft enough
to be spreadable on bread. I must admit that I havent carefully
tried all power and defrost combinations on the microwave tho.
And that isnt likely to be all that viable either since the block
of butter will be getting smaller every day till its gone.
Looks like it will be a lot simpler to just have a simple
heater in an insulated container in the fridge instead.
> The crock works great in the summer, I dont use a plate any more
Yeah, but like I said, its much too hot here for that to be viable.
[color=darkred]
Even less with a simple heater in an insulated
container for the butter in the fridge.
| |
| Rod Speed 2005-07-24, 9:05 pm |
| Jim Vatunz <rot13.snezrewvz@vvarg.arg.nh> wrote
> Rod Speed rod_speed@yahoo.com wrote
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
> Better warn those who've never experienced it to spread it thin.
> About 10% of peanut butter proportions is enough.
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
> Yeah i thought of the bulb but also thought you may have
> considered using some resistance wire for a heater element.
Yeah, after thinking about it more since I posted that, a power
resistor, the ceramic rectangular type, would be much more viable.
Much easier to mount and the surface temp would be better too.
> In hindsight a bulb is vastly easier and is a simple
> job to swap wattages to achieve the ideal temp..
Yeah, tho I might well thermostat it properly,
those onewire thermostat ics dont cost much.
[color=darkred]
> I suppose that's why i rarely get the treat of butter.
[color=darkred]
> Don't worry there must be plenty of others who want to. ;)
True.
| |
| Victor Smith 2005-07-24, 9:05 pm |
| On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 18:49:24 +1000, "Rod Speed" <rod_speed@yahoo.com>
wrote:
>The Real Bev <bashley@myrealbox.com> wrote
[color=darkred]
>
>There is no god, just an endless variety of
>crutches for pathetically inadequate 'minds'
Spoken by one who can't work out how to butter toast.
Pathetic.
| |
| Dave Hinz 2005-07-24, 9:05 pm |
| On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 21:02:52 GMT, Victor Smith <victorfsmith@earthlink.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 18:49:24 +1000, "Rod Speed" <rod_speed@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
[color=darkred]
> Spoken by one who can't work out how to butter toast.
> Pathetic.
I think Victor takes game, set, and match on that one.
| |
| The Real Bev 2005-07-24, 9:05 pm |
| Bill 2 wrote:
>
> "The Real Bev" <bashley@myrealbox.com> wrote:
>
> My 1977 model had a butter heater compartment. Seemed kind of wasteful
> having a heater in the cooled compartment.
Cadillacs (at least the 1978 POS that I had) run the heater and AC
simultaneously and mix the output to your desires. If that isn't insane I
don't know what is.
--
Cheers, Bev
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
"I love to go down to the schoolyard and watch all the
little children jump up and down and run around yelling and
screaming...They don't know I'm only using blanks." --Emo
| |
| Dave Hinz 2005-07-24, 9:05 pm |
| On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 14:34:18 -0700, The Real Bev <bashley@myrealbox.com> wrote:
> Cadillacs (at least the 1978 POS that I had) run the heater and AC
> simultaneously and mix the output to your desires. If that isn't insane I
> don't know what is.
Actually, there's some logic there. Older A/C compressors had a habit
of drying out if not used over a whole season. The seals didn't get the
lubricant on them, and they'd leak.
Also, even with modern components, one thing you want to do in the
winter is to get rid of the fog on the inside of the windows. The A/C
does an admirable job of reducing that humidity.
Dave "not that I'm defending G.M. here; don't get me wrong" Hinz
| |
| Logan Shaw 2005-07-24, 9:05 pm |
| Rod Speed wrote:
> Bill 2 <asdf@asdf.com> wrote
[color=darkred]
> Sure, but it is the most efficient way to keep butter at the correct temp
> and if the compartment is well insulated, it shouldnt take much power.
What about making the butter compartment sort of an airlock between
the fridge and the outside? Then have motorized shutters that open
on either side (the fridge side or the outside) if the butter
compartment gets either too cold (open shutter to outside) or too
hot (open shutter to fridge)? It seems better than running a heater
when relatively warm air from the outside is available for free most
of the time.
- Logan
| |
| Rod Speed 2005-07-24, 9:05 pm |
| Logan Shaw <lshaw-usenet@austin.rr.com> wrote
> Rod Speed wrote
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
> What about making the butter compartment sort of an airlock between the fridge
> and the outside?
You dont really need an airlock. My 1950s fridge already
has a butter compartment, but it doesnt work very well,
basically because they attempt to do the temp in there
using a relatively primitive approach of a plastic door on it.
It wouldnt be hard to replace that with something decently
insulating with polystyrene foam instead, and a small heater.
> Then have motorized shutters that open on either side (the fridge side or the
> outside) if the butter compartment gets either too cold (open shutter to
> outside) or too hot (open shutter to fridge)?
I'd rather a decent modern thermostat control on the heater.
Completely trivial to do with the onewire thermostat ic.
> It seems better than running a heater when relatively warm air from the
> outside is available for free most of the time.
True, but its easier to do with a simple heater than mechanically
modify the fridge when its just got one door to the outside.
Probably best to keep it outside the fridge in winter,
and only inside the fridge in summer when the butter
ends up at too high a temp outside on the benchtop.
And I agree with the other comment someone else made about
butter getting rancid too quickly in summer out of the fridge. Specially
with the relatively low rate at which the butter is consumed here.
| |
| ~^Johnny^~ 2005-07-24, 9:05 pm |
| -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
On 21 Jul 2005 21:26:52 GMT, Dave Hinz <DaveHinz@spamcop.net> wrote:
>On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 21:02:52 GMT, Victor Smith
><victorfsmith@earthlink.com> wrote:
>
>
>I think Victor takes game, set, and match on that one.
The only love Mr. Speed realizes. Serves him right.
Would stand up in any court.
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=py0V
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--
-john
wide-open at throttle dot info
~~~~~~~~
The time to repair the roof is when the sun is shining
- JFK
~~~~~~~~
| |
| ~^Johnny^~ 2005-07-24, 9:05 pm |
| -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 14:34:18 -0700, The Real Bev
<bashley@myrealbox.com> wrote:
>Cadillacs (at least the 1978 POS that I had) run the heater and AC
>simultaneously and mix the output to your desires. If that isn't
>insane I don't know what is.
Well, no. In any refrigeration, waste heat is produced. Recycling
some of this waste to the comfort zone is more efficient than pumping
it all outside.
It's hard to visualize, since the waste heat is taken from the
engine cooling system, until you realize that A/C condenser heat is
exhausted over the engine's radiator, adding to its load.
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=ehwO
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--
-john
wide-open at throttle dot info
~~~~~~~~
The time to repair the roof is when the sun is shining
- JFK
~~~~~~~~
| |
| ~^Johnny^~ 2005-07-24, 9:05 pm |
| -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 22:18:09 GMT, Logan Shaw
<lshaw-usenet@austin.rr.com> wrote:
>Rod Speed wrote:
>
>
>
>What about making the butter compartment sort of an airlock between
>the fridge and the outside? Then have motorized shutters that open
>on either side (the fridge side or the outside) if the butter
>compartment gets either too cold (open shutter to outside) or too
>hot (open shutter to fridge)? It seems better than running a heater
>when relatively warm air from the outside is available for free most
>of the time.
This scheme actually uses the compressor to generate the offset,
without any auxiliary heat. This has the same drawback as hot gas
defrost vs electric defrost, in that it uses the system. Also, the
added moving parts would be disadvantageous.
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=TAIw
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
--
-john
wide-open at throttle dot info
~~~~~~~~
The time to repair the roof is when the sun is shining
- JFK
~~~~~~~~
| |
| Bill 2 2005-07-24, 9:05 pm |
|
"The Real Bev" <bashley@myrealbox.com> wrote in message
news:42E014DA.795D98EA@myrealbox.com...
> Cadillacs (at least the 1978 POS that I had) run the heater and AC
> simultaneously and mix the output to your desires. If that isn't insane I
> don't know what is.
It isn't really insane since the A/C compressor will work at a 100% duty
cycle (which even if it is slightly too cold, will help with
dehumidification). The heater just draws heat from the ample supply of hot
coolant cycling through the system, it's not like it adds to the engine
load.
With most modern cars when you turn on the front defroster, the car will
engage the air conditioning (as long as outside temperature isn't too cold),
even if you turn the "temperature" knob up to full hot.
If the butter warmer or door seal heater use heat from the condenser coil,
it isn't as wasteful as a separate resistive heater. My fridge was of the
latter design.
| |
| The Real Bev 2005-07-24, 9:05 pm |
| Dave Hinz wrote:
>
> On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 14:34:18 -0700, The Real Bev <bashley@myrealbox.com> wrote:
>
>
> Actually, there's some logic there. Older A/C compressors had a habit
> of drying out if not used over a whole season. The seals didn't get the
> lubricant on them, and they'd leak.
That's why everybody knew they should turn their AC and heater on once a month
during their off-seasons. The insanity of making the AC fight the heater on a
105-degree day seems enormous.
> Also, even with modern components, one thing you want to do in the
> winter is to get rid of the fog on the inside of the windows. The A/C
> does an admirable job of reducing that humidity.
This is SoCal. To get rid of the fog we open the windows. At least I do.
> Dave "not that I'm defending G.M. here; don't get me wrong" Hinz
They probably all do it. If it weren't for crap like that we'd be FREE of
dependence on middle-eastern oil.
--
Cheers, Bev
**********************************************
"I've had a Lucas pacemaker for years and have
never experienced any prob
| |
| Rod Speed 2005-07-24, 9:05 pm |
| Bill 2 <asdf@asdf.com> wrote:
> "The Real Bev" <bashley@myrealbox.com> wrote in message
> news:42E014DA.795D98EA@myrealbox.com...
>
>
> It isn't really insane since the A/C compressor will work at a 100%
> duty cycle (which even if it is slightly too cold, will help with
> dehumidification). The heater just draws heat from the ample supply
> of hot coolant cycling through the system, it's not like it adds to
> the engine load.
>
> With most modern cars when you turn on the front defroster, the car
> will engage the air conditioning (as long as outside temperature
> isn't too cold), even if you turn the "temperature" knob up to full
> hot.
> If the butter warmer or door seal heater use heat from the condenser coil, it
> isn't as wasteful as a separate resistive heater.
A resistive heater doesnt have to be 'wasteful' as long as the
butter compartment is well insulated and you're only replacing
the heat the leaks out past the insulation to the inside of the fridge.
> My fridge was of the latter design.
Overkill for the butter compartment if it was designed properly.
| |
| The Real Bev 2005-07-24, 9:05 pm |
| ~^Johnny^~ wrote:
> On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 14:34:18 -0700, The Real Bev
> <bashley@myrealbox.com> wrote:
>
>
> Well, no. In any refrigeration, waste heat is produced. Recycling
> some of this waste to the comfort zone is more efficient than pumping
> it all outside.
So in order to make the AC run easier we pump its waste heat into the
passenger compartment, which we are trying to cool, so the Ac has to run
harder to get rid of the excess heat. I can see the pointy-haired boss trying
to explain this to Alice, who crushes him with her fist of death...
> It's hard to visualize, since the waste heat is taken from the
> engine cooling system, until you realize that A/C condenser heat is
> exhausted over the engine's radiator, adding to its load.
The car blew a rod out through the pan on the way back from Las Vegas.
Somehow it all seems to make sense now -- a sort of suicide brought on by
internal unresolvable conflict between the heating system and the air
conditioner. We saw a lot of that on Star Trek.
--
Cheers, Bev
**********************************************
"I've had a Lucas pacemaker for years and have
never experienced any prob
| |
| Gordon Richmond 2005-07-24, 9:05 pm |
| "The car blew a rod out through the pan on the way back from Las
Vegas.
Somehow it all seems to make sense now -- a sort of suicide brought
on by
internal unresolvable conflict between the heating system and the air
conditioner. We saw a lot of that on Star Trek."
Naw, it probably threw a rod because you, in your zeal to deprive the
nasty great oil companies of their fair share of your financial
resources, neglected to put oil in the crankcase. :> )
Seriously, it's not really that the heater and the A/C are "fighting"
one another. Waste heat from the engine's cooling system is used to
warm up cold, dehumidified air from the A/C evaporator to a
comfortable temperature. At a negligible increase in fuel consumption
over running the refrigeration component alone.
Gordon Richmond
| |
| no_child_left_unleashed@yahoo.com.sg 2005-07-24, 9:05 pm |
| > The main reason I stopped using it was because its too hard to be
> convenient out of the fridge
you need the freon-butter heat exchanger. Your fridge is more
frugal when pumping heat up a shallower gradient.
| |
| Dave Hinz 2005-07-24, 9:05 pm |
| On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 16:30:42 -0700, The Real Bev <bashley@myrealbox.com> wrote:
> Dave Hinz wrote:
>
> That's why everybody knew they should turn their AC and heater on once a month
> during their off-seasons. The insanity of making the AC fight the heater on a
> 105-degree day seems enormous.
Well, having the coolant go through the heater core is one thing, but
are you saying that the air they were cooling with the A/C then ran
through the hot heater core? If that's the case, yes, that's stupid.
I'd be surprised if GM was that stupid, but then again maybe not.
[color=darkred]
> This is SoCal. To get rid of the fog we open the windows. At least I do.
Well, GM's market isn't limited to SoCal.
[color=darkred]
> They probably all do it. If it weren't for crap like that we'd be FREE of
> dependence on middle-eastern oil.
I think you're overestimating the cost, if any, of a system which may or
may not work the way you think it does.
| |
| twillmon@cybermesa.net 2005-07-24, 9:05 pm |
|
On 2005-07-21 DaveHinz@spamcop.net said:
>Newsgroups: misc.consumers.frugal-living,alt.energy.homepower
>On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 03:27:04 GMT, Walter R. <wer25@example.com>
>your health.
>Well, I've got to die from something; it might as well be food that
>I like.
>Well, it might not make me live longer, but it would certainly seem
>like it. Me, I'll keep eating butter and all the other stuff I
>feel like, and given that my total cholesterol is in the 150's,
>apparently I'm not hurting as a result of enjoying it.
>Oh, I drink whole milk too. Just so you know. Nothing better than
>nearly-ice-cold whole milk.
>Dave Hinz
A friend who tracks such things sees an interesting correlation
between the strong marketing of margarine in the late 1940's and the
subsequent rise in cardiovascular disease.
I believe a researcher found that butyric acid was a good thing in
human nutrition - major source is butter.
Tom Willmon
Net-Tamer V 1.12.0 - Registered
| |
| Dave Hinz 2005-07-24, 9:06 pm |
| On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 20:06:39 +0000 (UTC), twillmon@cybermesa.net <twillmon@cybermesa.net> wrote:
>
>
> On 2005-07-21 DaveHinz@spamcop.net said:
[color=darkred]
> A friend who tracks such things sees an interesting correlation
> between the strong marketing of margarine in the late 1940's and the
> subsequent rise in cardiovascular disease.
Repeat after me: correlation does not show causation.
> I believe a researcher found that butyric acid was a good thing in
> human nutrition - major source is butter.
Could be, but two things happening together doesn't mean one causes the
other.
| |
| Logan Shaw 2005-07-24, 9:06 pm |
| Dave Hinz wrote:
> On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 16:30:42 -0700, The Real Bev <bashley@myrealbox.com> wrote:
>
[color=darkred]
> Well, having the coolant go through the heater core is one thing, but
> are you saying that the air they were cooling with the A/C then ran
> through the hot heater core? If that's the case, yes, that's stupid.
> I'd be surprised if GM was that stupid, but then again maybe not.
With the standard controls that GM used for a decade or two, it does
indeed do that if you put it on the Defrost setting. Max, Norm,
Bi-Level, and Defrost run the compressor. Vent and Heat do not.
If I recall correctly, it was possible to put the system in the
Max position and then slide the temperature slider over to Warm,
and the system would run the A/C and blow hot air. However, if
you put that slider in the other extreme position, I believe that
totally closes off the valve to the heater core, and while the
air is running past it, it is not heating the air because no
coolant is flowing through it.
- Logan
| |
| Rod Speed 2005-07-24, 9:06 pm |
| twillmon@cybermesa.net wrote:
> On 2005-07-21 DaveHinz@spamcop.net said:
[color=darkred]
> A friend who tracks such things sees an interesting correlation
> between the strong marketing of margarine in the late 1940's
> and the subsequent rise in cardiovascular disease.
Too mindlessly superficial, plenty of other things increased at that time too
> I believe a researcher found that butyric
> acid was a good thing in human nutrition
Separate issue entirely to the downsides with butter.
What has been well established over many years now
is that the societys that use olive oil instead of butter do
tend to do a lot better on cardiovascular disease etc.
> - major source is butter.
| |
| Dave Hinz 2005-07-24, 9:06 pm |
| On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 06:52:43 +1000, Rod Speed <rod_speed@yahoo.com> wrote:
> twillmon@cybermesa.net wrote:
>
> Too mindlessly superficial, plenty of other things increased at that time too
Right.
>
> Separate issue entirely to the downsides with butter.
>
> What has been well established over many years now
> is that the societys that use olive oil instead of butter do
> tend to do a lot better on cardiovascular disease etc.
Funny, above you seem to understand correlation vs. causation, and here
you seem to be supporting your point with just that.
| |
| Rod Speed 2005-07-24, 9:06 pm |
| Dave Hinz <DaveHinz@spamcop.net> wrote
> Rod Speed <rod_speed@yahoo.com> wrote
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
> Right.
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
> Funny, above you seem to understand correlation vs. causation,
> and here you seem to be supporting your point with just that.
Its much more complicated than your mindlessly silly waffle on that.
Using your mindlessly silly line, we dont know that
smoking causes any health problems. Pity we do anyway.
| |
| Dave Hinz 2005-07-24, 9:06 pm |
| On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 07:15:20 +1000, Rod Speed <rod_speed@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Dave Hinz <DaveHinz@spamcop.net> wrote
[color=darkred]
>
>
> Its much more complicated than your mindlessly silly waffle on that.
Yes, it's more complicated than your meaningless statement above as
well. Societies which use olive oil instead of butter tend to be, for
instance, mediteranean, yes? As such, do you not agree that there is a
different genetic makeup of those individuals as compared to, say,
Germans?
Choosing olive oil rather than butter as _the_ cause of different rates
of cardiovascular disease is just as meaningless as the guy mentioning
"since 1940, ..."
> Using your mindlessly silly line, we dont know that
> smoking causes any health problems. Pity we do anyway.
False logic. We _do_ know the causation of smoking vs. various
diseases. We know that Japanese people eat a lot of fish, and we know
that Japanese people have dark hair. Only a fool would state that dark
hair makes them eat fish, though. Stating this truth does in no way
change the fact that smoking causes cancer, criminals cause crime, and
other things where causation _has_ been established.
Nice try though...
| |
| The Real Bev 2005-07-24, 9:06 pm |
| Dave Hinz wrote:
>
> The Real Bev <bashley@myrealbox.com> wrote:
>
> Well, having the coolant go through the heater core is one thing, but
> are you saying that the air they were cooling with the A/C then ran
> through the hot heater core? If that's the case, yes, that's stupid.
> I'd be surprised if GM was that stupid, but then again maybe not.
As I recall, when you turned on the AC you first got a blast of warm air,
which gradually cooled down. You couldn't just turn on the fan -- if you
tried to do that, you would get warmer-than-ambient air. The details are hazy
(the thing self-destructed at least 15 years ago), but I remember reading in
the manual that warm and cold air would be mixed together in proportion to the
setting you wanted. I envision both the AC and heater fan working, and little
doors opening varying amounts to let in the proper amounts of air.
>
>
> Well, GM's market isn't limited to SoCal.
Hey, if they have to make special smog-control versions for California, why
not make the defroster differently too? I've never had a defroster that made
the situation better, unfortunately. Turning it on (last was a Sentra) always
resulted in MORE fog.
>
>
> I think you're overestimating the cost, if any, of a system which may or
> may not work the way you think it does.
Hah. Not only would we be free of middle-eastern oil, our children would no
longer be afflicted with acne and nobody would get divorced. School fees
would be a lot lower too.
--
Cheers, Bev
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
"They redundantly repeated themselves over and over again
incessantly without end ad infinitum" -- ibid.
| |
| Rod Speed 2005-07-24, 9:06 pm |
| Dave Hinz <DaveHinz@spamcop.net> wrote
> Rod Speed <rod_speed@yahoo.com> wrote
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
> Yes, it's more complicated than your meaningless statement above as well.
Pathetic, realy.
> Societies which use olive oil instead of butter
> tend to be, for instance, mediteranean, yes?
> As such, do you not agree that there is a different genetic
> makeup of those individuals as compared to, say, Germans?
There is bugger all in that in fact. Essentially because those who
currently inhabit the meditteranean are surprisingly diverse genetically.
Not all that surprising actually given the history.
> Choosing olive oil rather than butter as _the_ cause
> of different rates of cardiovascular disease is just
> as meaningless as the guy mentioning "since 1940, ..."
Wrong.
[color=darkred]
> False logic.
Nope.
> We _do_ know the causation of smoking vs. various diseases.
We didnt initially when it was obvious that
smoking had severe health downsides.
> We know that Japanese people eat a lot of fish, and we
> know that Japanese people have dark hair. Only a fool
> would state that dark hair makes them eat fish, though.
Yes, but it doesnt take much to work out
the downsides with the Jap diet too.
> Stating this truth does in no way change the fact that smoking causes cancer,
> criminals cause crime, and other things where causation _has_ been
> established.
> Nice try though...
Pathetic excuse for bullshit, in your case.
| |
| Charles Foot 2005-07-24, 9:06 pm |
| no_child_left_unleashed@yahoo.com.sg wrote:
>
>
> you need the freon-butter heat exchanger. Your fridge is more
> frugal when pumping heat up a shallower gradient.
>
Don't they make fridges with butter conditioners in them over there?
Here in New Zealand, I doubt that you'd find a fridge without one! It's
normally located in the door, holds a pound of butter and has its own
thermostat usually controlling a light bulb which doubles as the heat
source.
| |
| Logan Shaw 2005-07-24, 9:06 pm |
| The Real Bev wrote:
> Dave Hinz wrote:
[color=darkred]
> As I recall, when you turned on the AC you first got a blast of warm air,
> which gradually cooled down. You couldn't just turn on the fan -- if you
> tried to do that, you would get warmer-than-ambient air. The details are hazy
> (the thing self-destructed at least 15 years ago), but I remember reading in
> the manual that warm and cold air would be mixed together in proportion to the
> setting you wanted. I envision both the AC and heater fan working, and little
> doors opening varying amounts to let in the proper amounts of air.
It's simpler than that.
There are two coil things with fins that look like a radiator. There is
only a single fan, blows air through one coil thing and then the other.
One of them can be made really cold and can cool down the air. The other
can be made really hot and can heat up the air. The one that cools the
air is called the evaporator coil and is part of the air conditioning.
The one that heats the air is called the heater coil and is hooked up to
the engine coolant (which is really hot after it runs through the engine
block).
How hot the hot one gets can be regulated by adjusting a valve
which controls how much of the coolant liquid flows through it.
If you close the valve, it won't heat up at all. If you open it
all the way, it will heat up a lot. Similarly with the A/C, you
can control how cold the cold one gets by adjusting how much
the compressor runs.
There are little doors like you mention, but they do not mix hot
air and cold air. Instead, they control two things: (1) what
proportion of the air comes from inside vs. outside the car, and
(2) whether the air comes out the floor vents (useful for heating),
the regular dashboard vents (useful for A/C), or the defroster vents
next to the windshield (useful for defrosting).
> Hey, if they have to make special smog-control versions for California, why
> not make the defroster differently too? I've never had a defroster that made
> the situation better, unfortunately. Turning it on (last was a Sentra) always
> resulted in MORE fog.
It probably will, at first. The principle behind the defroster / defogger
is twofold: First, hot air will absorb moisture. So, the system heats
the air. Second, dry air will absorb moisture, so the system dries the
air out. This is done by running the A/C, in effect. When the A/C's
evaporator coil gets really cold and air flows through it, water
condenses on the coil because it's cold, just like when water condenses
on the outside of your iced tea glass when you take it outside on a hot
or humid day. The water that condenses drips through a little tube onto
the pavement, and suddenly because the system is both chilling *and*
heating the air, you get air that's got reduced humidity and is hot.
In other words, you have hot dry air, which is perfect for defogging
windows for THREE reasons: the first is that hot air will absorb
moisture from the inside of the windshield better, the second is that
dry air will absorb moisture from the inside of the windshield better,
and the third is that the hot air will heat up the windshield and
eventually bring its temperature up to higher than the temperature of
the air outside the car, which will prevent water from condensing on
the OUTSIDE of the windshield and causing fogginess.
The thing is, all three of these processes take a while to kick in.
You have to have the settings right, and then it takes a while for
the air to start drying out enough that it matters, and it takes
a while for it to get hot enough that it takes away moisture from
the inside, and it takes even longer to get hot enough so that it
heats the windshield and gradually causes the outside moisture
to evaporate (because it has to heat to the point where it turns the
tide in a situation where we already know the outside moisture is
condensing on the windshield).
- Logan
| |
| Dave Hinz 2005-07-25, 10:21 am |
| On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 17:27:54 -0700, The Real Bev <bashley@myrealbox.com> wrote:
> Dave Hinz wrote:
[color=darkred]
>
> Hey, if they have to make special smog-control versions for California, why
> not make the defroster differently too?
Changing the engine management computer is a _lot_ more trivial than
changing the internal ducting of the dash and heat exchanger, no?
>
> Hah. Not only would we be free of middle-eastern oil, our children would no
> longer be afflicted with acne and nobody would get divorced. School fees
> would be a lot lower too.
Can you throw world hunger in there?
| |
| Dave Hinz 2005-07-25, 12:21 pm |
| On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 11:12:32 +1000, Rod Speed <rod_speed@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Dave Hinz <DaveHinz@spamcop.net> wrote
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
> Pathetic, realy.
Non-sequiter noted. You first acknowledged that the rhetorical tactic
is ineffective, and then you used it. All in the same message. I
called you on it, and now you resort to one-line insults rather than
substantive responses. Says it all, really.
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
> There is bugger all in that in fact. Essentially because those who
> currently inhabit the meditteranean are surprisingly diverse genetically.
It's an _example_ of one of the tens of thousands of things you haven't
considered different between the populations, which could account for
the difference in heart disease rates. Olive oil is only one
environmental/dietary difference; there are countless others.
> Not all that surprising actually given the history.
Nor is it relevant. Do try to keep up.
[color=darkred]
> Wrong.
Based on what, exactly? See if you can, you know, back up whatever
you're saying, rather than just give a one-word non-answer.
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
> Nope.
See above.
> We didnt initially when it was obvious that
> smoking had severe health downsides.
words together coherent not sentence making
[color=darkred]
> Yes, but it doesnt take much to work out
> the downsides with the Jap diet too.
It's an example of a dietary difference, and a physical difference,
which happen in the same group of people.
>
>
> Pathetic excuse for bullshit, in your case.
I notice that, in this entire message, you've had nothing of substance
to say; it's just namecalling from you. Says all that needs to be said
about your, er, "points".
| |
| Rod Speed 2005-07-25, 4:21 pm |
| Dave Hinz <DaveHinz@spamcop.net> wrote
> Rod Speed <rod_speed@yahoo.com> wrote
<reams of its puerile shit flushed where it belongs>
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
> It's an _example_ of one of the tens of thousands of things
> you haven't considered different between the populations,
> which could account for the difference in heart disease rates.
You can make the same claim about the effect of smoking.
We managed to work out that smoking has real health downsides anyway.
> Olive oil is only one environmental/dietary
> difference; there are countless others.
Not all that many in fact.
<reams of its puerile shit flushed where it belongs>
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
> It's an example of a dietary difference, and a physical
> difference, which happen in the same group of people.
Wrong again.
<reams of its puerile shit flushed where it belongs>
| |
| Dave Hinz 2005-07-25, 4:21 pm |
| On Tue, 26 Jul 2005 04:28:24 +1000, Rod Speed <rod_speed@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Dave Hinz <DaveHinz@spamcop.net> wrote
>
><reams of its puerile shit flushed where it belongs>
>
>
>
>
>
> You can make the same claim about the effect of smoking.
So you're claiming that smoking hasn't been scientifically shown to
cause disease? Do you have any evidence to back up your incorrect
assertion?
> We managed to work out that smoking has real health downsides anyway.
Yes, that's called science. Unlike your "people in Italy eat olive oil,
and have less heart disease". Unless, of cource, you can provide a cite
to a peer-reviewed study showing that causation _has_ been established?
>
> Not all that many in fact.
Such as? This is the part where you're supposed to, you know, provide
facts instead of namecalling, but instead, you write:
><reams of its puerile shit flushed where it belongs>
See what I mean?
>
>
>
> Wrong again.
You're telling me what my point is? Sorry, you're barely qualified to
speak for _yourself_, let alone for me.
| |
| Rod Speed 2005-07-25, 5:21 pm |
| Dave Hinz <DaveHinz@spamcop.net> wrote
> Rod Speed <rod_speed@yahoo.com> wrote
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
> So you're claiming that smoking hasn't been scientifically shown to cause
> disease?
Nope, I am saying that the correlations were quite adequate to establish
that smoking has real health downsides. The causation came later.
> Do you have any evidence to back up your incorrect assertion?
Pity it aint even my assertion.
[color=darkred]
<reams of its puerile shit flushed where it belongs>
| |
| Dave Hinz 2005-07-25, 5:21 pm |
| On Tue, 26 Jul 2005 05:19:56 +1000, Rod Speed <rod_speed@yahoo.com> wrote:
><reams of its puerile shit flushed where it belongs>
This troll seems to be stuck.
<plonk>
| |
|
| Some pathetic excuse for a bullshit artist claiming to be
Dave Hinz <DaveHinz@spamcop.net> wrote
> Rod Speed <rod_speed@yahoo.com> wrote
> This troll seems to be stuck.
> <plonk>
Even you should be able to do better than that pathetic line.
Obviously not.
| |
| Dave Hinz 2005-07-25, 7:21 pm |
| On Tue, 26 Jul 2005 06:55:27 +1000, TonyB <nospam@nospam.com> wrote:
> Some pathetic excuse for a bullshit artist claiming to be
> Dave Hinz <DaveHinz@spamcop.net> wrote
>
>
> Even you should be able to do better than that pathetic line.
Gee, a sock-puppet, or a sychphant? Does it really matter?
> Obviously not.
You do know that <plonk> is a word with a specific meaning, right?
I notice that you also don't have anything of substance to contribute.
| |
|
| Dave Hinz <DaveHinz@spamcop.net> wrote:
<reams of its puerile shit flushed where it belongs>
whoops, nothing left, wota surprise.
| |
| The Real Bev 2005-07-25, 8:21 pm |
| Dave Hinz wrote:
>
> On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 17:27:54 -0700, The Real Bev <bashley@myrealbox.com> wrote:
>
>
> Changing the engine management computer is a _lot_ more trivial than
> changing the internal ducting of the dash and heat exchanger, no?
There were different models for California long before computerized engine
management was inflicted on us. Different carbs, different (I think)
compression ratios, different intake and exhaust systems. Anybody remember
when everybody had to get new heads because unleaded gas provided insufficient
cushioning for the valve seats, which wore down really fast?
>
> Can you throw world hunger in there?
Oh, sorry, I thought I had. Cancer would get cured next week.
--
Cheers,
Bev
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
What if there were no hypothetical questions?
| |
| G M D 2005-07-27, 12:21 am |
| keep it in fridge, wrap it in foil that it comes in and take it out.
then the condensation from the foil is gonne...PERFECTLY softened.
thats what i do
Gerry
"Wooly" <nobody@nun.ya> wrote in message
news:mcetd1ha56ppnqpbbpnmfb2p6ldeh0mmku@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 06:38:39 +1000, "Rod Speed" <rod_speed@yahoo.com>
> spewed forth :
> I've got a 1200w nuker. I put a stick of butter on its end on a
> microwavable plate, nuke for 5 secs, then over-end it and nuke for 5
> more. The center of the stick softens before the ends so it may
> collapse. Use a biggish plate if you don't want a mess.
>
> +++++++++++++
>
> Reply to the list as I do not publish an email address to USENET.
> This practice has cut my spam by more than 95%.
> Of course, I did have to abandon a perfectly good email account...
| |
| Rod Speed 2005-07-27, 1:21 am |
| G M D <gmd@SMAP.THIS.MFER.pchg.net> wrote
> keep it in fridge, wrap it in foil that it comes in and take it out. then
> the condensation from the foil is gonne...PERFECTLY softened.
Wouldnt work for me, thats much too late after I need it soft enough.
And it never gets soft enough in winter either.
> thats what i do
[color=darkred]
> Wooly <nobody@nun.ya> wrote
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
|
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