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Home > Archive > Alternative Power sources > August 2005 > horsepoop for heat?
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horsepoop for heat?
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| G M D 2005-08-02, 12:21 am |
| I have been floating the idea around of running pipes thru my manure pile
and grabbing the heat from it. This is just a wild (one of many) thought
that I had. I was thinking a closed water system that runs water thru the
poop and back into the henhouse. I am thinking a small low flow waterpump
(something i can run from my batts and solar cell). has anyone ever tried
this or is this another crazy thought?
Thanx in advance.
Gerry in Nova Scota
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| Harry Chickpea 2005-08-02, 1:21 am |
| "G M D" <gmd@NOSPAM.pchg.net> wrote:
>
>I have been floating the idea around of running pipes thru my manure pile
>and grabbing the heat from it. This is just a wild (one of many) thought
>that I had. I was thinking a closed water system that runs water thru the
>poop and back into the henhouse. I am thinking a small low flow waterpump
>(something i can run from my batts and solar cell). has anyone ever tried
>this or is this another crazy thought?
Mother Earth News had an article on it in the 1970s/80s. IIRC, the
trick is to not extract so much heat that you slow the heat producing
digestion process down to a point where it stops. Other than that it
works. I think there were some charts of outputs, etc. The website
might have the article archived.
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Have been in houses in the swiss mountains that had stable next to
bedroom....also piled horse manure against one of the bedroom
walls to use the heat to warm it....along with the heat from the
stable keeps bedroom warm....
I also remember reading years back about someone using your pipe
through the manure pile for heat...should work...
hope helps...have fun....sno
G M D wrote:
>
> I have been floating the idea around of running pipes thru my manure pile
> and grabbing the heat from it. This is just a wild (one of many) thought
> that I had. I was thinking a closed water system that runs water thru the
> poop and back into the henhouse. I am thinking a small low flow waterpump
> (something i can run from my batts and solar cell). has anyone ever tried
> this or is this another crazy thought?
>
> Thanx in advance.
>
> Gerry in Nova Scota
--
Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it
This tag line is generated by:
SLTG (Silly Little Tag Generator)
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| nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu 2005-08-02, 3:21 am |
| >...Composting makes about 10 Btu/lb of heat, like wood burning,
Oops. That's 10K Btu/lb.
>Keeping the temp up requires a large pile, eg m^3 min...
And 1 m^3.
>Circulating a little warm moist air between the cylinders and
>the greenhouses seems easier than using pipes...
Especially if the compost pile is aerated with a small blower...
100 cfm of 90 F air with 80% RH can move about 100(90-50) = 4K Btu/h
of sensible heat into a 50 F greenhouse, as well as about 10 lb/h of
water vapor, which can release about 10K Btu/h as it condenses.
Nick
| |
| nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu 2005-08-02, 4:21 am |
| G M D <gmd@NOSPAM.pchg.net> wrote:
>I have been floating the idea around of running pipes thru my manure pile
>and grabbing the heat from it... a closed water system that runs water
>thru the poop and back into the henhouse. I am thinking a small low flow
>waterpump (something i can run from my batts and solar cell). has anyone
>ever tried this or is this another crazy thought?
It's not crazy. Composting makes about 10 Btu/lb of heat, like wood burning,
based on dry weight, and with enough temperature (eg 130 F) and oxygen
(10% min?) and moisture (50% by weight) and the right mix (25:1 C/N ratio),
it can disappear at a rate of 15% per day.
Keeping the temp up requires a large pile, eg m^3 min. O2 requires turning
or aeration with a blower, moisture might come from a soaker hose with a
humidistat, and horse manure and bedding straw be close to the right mix.
That said, it takes a lot of pipe surface to extract heat efficiently from
a manure pile, and how do we replace the compost with fresh manure without
disturbing the pipes?
I've thought about heating greenhouses with compost inside large cylinders
made from rings of used tires, but the greenhouses are not very near the
horses, and moving the manure and compost isn't easy. Circulating a little
warm moist air between the cylinders and the greenhouses seems easier than
using pipes, with condensation inside the greenhouses and desirable CO2
enrichment. Anna Edey mixed chickens and compost and greenhouses, with a
compost air filter to keep the chickens healthier...
Nick
| |
| phlegmatico@yahoo.com 2005-08-02, 11:21 am |
|
nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu wrote:
> It's not crazy.
It's not crazy, but we might prefer to leave sufficient heat in the
pile to maintain the type of anaerobes we prefer. There's three
flavors, each of which flourishes at three distinct temperature ranges.
They don't all have the same characteristics. For example, IIRC, you
won't be able to harvest heat from the pile AND ALSO harvest methane
gas. Two conflicting optimizations.
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"G M D" <gmd@NOSPAM.pchg.net> wrote in message
news:rjBHe.5603$p5.1134@nnrp.ca.mci.com!nnrp1.uunet.ca...
>I have been floating the idea around of running pipes thru my manure pile
>and grabbing the heat from it. This is just a wild (one of many) thought
>that I had. I was thinking a closed water system that runs water thru the
>poop and back into the henhouse. I am thinking a small low flow waterpump
>(something i can run from my batts and solar cell). has anyone ever tried
>this or is this another crazy thought?
>
> Thanx in advance.
>
> Gerry in Nova Scota
So what causes the heat in a poop bile or compost pile? Can science capture
the process and use it artifically to make heat? Why can't the chemical or
biological reaction be duplicated and applied commercially?
| |
| nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu 2005-08-02, 11:21 am |
| <phlegmatico@yahoo.com> wrote:
>...we might prefer to leave sufficient heat in the pile to maintain
>the type of anaerobes we prefer.
These would be aerobes.
Nick
| |
| Harry 2005-08-02, 12:21 pm |
|
"G M D" <gmd@NOSPAM.pchg.net> wrote:
>I have been floating the idea around of running pipes thru my manure pile
>and grabbing the heat from it. This is just a wild (one of many) thought
>that I had. I was thinking a closed water system that runs water thru the
>poop and back into the henhouse. I am thinking a small low flow waterpump
>(something i can run from my batts and solar cell). has anyone ever tried
>this or is this another crazy thought?
>
>Thanx in advance.
>
>Gerry in Nova Scota
>
>
Hello,
Why cannot you just run irrigation "funny pipe" through it; fill the piping
with oil (or just use plain hose); then seal it. I donot understand why you
need to "pump" anything.
Another idea:Run the hose/piping to stiff piping you use for the hens'
perches, while, using a common gardenhose "Y" make a "Y" from the main hose/piping
to run the flexable stuff under their nests. Youwill have eggs like Spring
- betcha . . . Make sure the perches donot get TOO HOT. If they do get too
hot: get a thick, solid, plastic pole; saw it in half; have them saw it in
half for you; drill out a smaller hole; then carefully glue it back together,
paying attention to not let one drop of glue into the ditch youhave drilled
out. This will allow less oil into the perch, thus less heat, however that
sounds as too much work, so find an insulation the hens can live with, and
not eat or peck for bedding etc. . .
Or just slipping their perch through a larger hollow tube may also work (after
wrapping it with insulation). Make sure the finished product doesnot wind
up too thick for their feet.
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nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu wrote:
>
>Oops. That's 10K Btu/lb.
>
>
>And 1 m^3.
>
>
>Especially if the compost pile is aerated with a small blower...
>100 cfm of 90 F air with 80% RH can move about 100(90-50) = 4K Btu/h
>of sensible heat into a 50 F greenhouse, as well as about 10 lb/h of
>water vapor, which can release about 10K Btu/h as it condenses.
>
>Nick
>
>
Hello,
In India they get a disease called "Stink Nose", which comes from burning
cow dung for cooking and heating.
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| |
| daestrom 2005-08-02, 6:21 pm |
|
<nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu> wrote in message
news:dcntsi$fs7@acadia.ece.villanova.edu...
> <phlegmatico@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> These would be aerobes.
>
'aerobic digestion' is done with microbes that are open to air, while
'anaerobic digestion' is done by microbes that die in air. Septic digesters
and such usually use 'anaerobic' microbes. They give off methane as a
byproduct. (swamp gas is another example of anaerobic digestion). Aerobic
digestion requires lots of fresh air. This gives of CO2 as a byproduct.
Secondary treatment in a modern sewage plant is a good example.
A compost pile is probably aerobic since it is occasionally 'turned'. But
manure could be either, depending on how well it is aerated and how 'wet' it
is. But regardless, the point about not cooling it too far is valid either
way.
daestrom
| |
| Mr Clarke 2005-08-03, 12:21 am |
| This is another area of Perpetual Motion (just for the record); not as
though it`s Shit.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ashley Clarke
-------------------------------------------------------
"Nog" <nognog@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:te6dnfHl3td36XLfRVn-sw@adelphia.com...
>
> "G M D" <gmd@NOSPAM.pchg.net> wrote in message
> news:rjBHe.5603$p5.1134@nnrp.ca.mci.com!nnrp1.uunet.ca...
>
> So what causes the heat in a poop bile or compost pile? Can science
capture
> the process and use it artifically to make heat? Why can't the chemical or
> biological reaction be duplicated and applied commercially?
>
>
| |
| El Kabong 2005-08-03, 5:21 pm |
| Very interesting.
I've often wondered if farmers could build a silo-shaped structure
underground adjacent to their barns and feed their barn cleaners into it via
an auger of some type. Heated water could be scavenged by pipes coiled
through the concrete circumference, methane could be acquired off the top of
the contents and liquefied waste could be processed into fertilizer. The
methane could be used to generate electricity or run farm equipment.
To do any significant good it would have to be a very large structure. Also,
it would require 'anaerobic digestion' to function and airtight seals would
be an obvious problem that someone smarter than me would have to figure out.
Has anyone ever heard of such a system being tried?
El
"daestrom" <daestrom@NO_SPAM_HEREtwcny.rr.com> wrote in message
news:RFQHe.295$N93.67@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
>
> <nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu> wrote in message
> news:dcntsi$fs7@acadia.ece.villanova.edu...
>
> 'aerobic digestion' is done with microbes that are open to air, while
> 'anaerobic digestion' is done by microbes that die in air. Septic
> digesters and such usually use 'anaerobic' microbes. They give off
> methane as a byproduct. (swamp gas is another example of anaerobic
> digestion). Aerobic digestion requires lots of fresh air. This gives of
> CO2 as a byproduct. Secondary treatment in a modern sewage plant is a good
> example.
>
> A compost pile is probably aerobic since it is occasionally 'turned'. But
> manure could be either, depending on how well it is aerated and how 'wet'
> it is. But regardless, the point about not cooling it too far is valid
> either way.
>
> daestrom
>
>
| |
| nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu 2005-08-03, 5:21 pm |
| El Kabong <elkabong@northgoods.com> wrote:
>I've often wondered if farmers could build a silo-shaped structure
>underground adjacent to their barns and feed their barn cleaners into it via
>an auger of some type. Heated water could be scavenged by pipes coiled
>through the concrete circumference, methane could be acquired off the top of
>the contents and liquefied waste could be processed into fertilizer. The
>methane could be used to generate electricity or run farm equipment.
Anaerobic digestion is very slow, compared to aerobic, so methane generators
produce little heat. "Manure hot dogs" in South America have manure and water
inside a polyethylene film duct in a trench, with horizontal sticks on top
near the ends to squish down the duct and make airseals. People shovel manure
in one end and remove digested manure from the other, and methane collects
in a long bubble above the sticks in the middle.
In a cold climate, the trench might run east and west to collect solar heat
in wintertime, with some insulation below the film and and an extra layer of
film above it and a low reflective wall on the shady side.
Nick
| |
| El Kabong 2005-08-04, 12:21 am |
| Thanks, Nick, for the enlightening response. I had never heard of "Manure
hot dogs". That's funny. How do they use the products of this process?
I still wonder, if the manure was stored in a vertical column (silo shaped)
and completely underground and under self-generated pressure (there's that
problem with the seals again), wouldn't the heat be able to propagate itself
to a useful level since atmospheric influences would be minimized? Or, then
again, maybe the problem of sealing the chamber would go away if the process
became aerobic, with air pumped to the bottom of the stack and methane
pumped off the top? (That means provision of power to the pump--an external
energy source being required.)
Thanks again.
El
<nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu> wrote in message
news:dcr7ec$hk3@acadia.ece.villanova.edu...
> El Kabong <elkabong@northgoods.com> wrote:
>
>
> Anaerobic digestion is very slow, compared to aerobic, so methane
> generators
> produce little heat. "Manure hot dogs" in South America have manure and
> water
> inside a polyethylene film duct in a trench, with horizontal sticks on top
> near the ends to squish down the duct and make airseals. People shovel
> manure
> in one end and remove digested manure from the other, and methane collects
> in a long bubble above the sticks in the middle.
>
> In a cold climate, the trench might run east and west to collect solar
> heat
> in wintertime, with some insulation below the film and and an extra layer
> of
> film above it and a low reflective wall on the shady side.
>
> Nick
>
| |
| nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu 2005-08-04, 10:21 am |
| El Kabong <elkabong@northgoods.com> wrote:
>Thanks, Nick, for the enlightening response. I had never heard of "Manure
>hot dogs". That's funny. How do they use the products of this process?
They use the methane for cooking, drawing it off with a tube in the bubble.
>I still wonder, if the manure was stored in a vertical column (silo shaped)
>and completely underground and under self-generated pressure (there's that
>problem with the seals again), wouldn't the heat be able to propagate itself
>to a useful level since atmospheric influences would be minimized? Or, then
>again, maybe the problem of sealing the chamber would go away if the process
>became aerobic, with air pumped to the bottom of the stack and methane
>pumped off the top?
Again, methane generation is slow, with very little heat production.
Aerobic digestion is much faster, with lots of heat. I don't think you
can do both at the same time, altho one local sewage treatment plant
generates methane in a big tank with a floating lid and burns the
methane under the same tank to make the reaction go faster.
You might enjoy visiting a few local sewage treatment plants. Operators
often welcome people who (rarely) walk in and ask for a tour. Try to
avoid acting like a sewage terrorist :-)
Nick
| |
| El Kabong 2005-08-04, 2:21 pm |
|
<nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu> wrote in message
news:dcsskt$hsl@acadia.ece.villanova.edu...
>
> You might enjoy visiting a few local sewage treatment plants. Operators
> often welcome people who (rarely) walk in and ask for a tour. Try to
> avoid acting like a sewage terrorist :-)
Good idea. I'll try to act like I'm there because I love sewage!
El
| |
| the seventh sign 2005-08-06, 9:21 am |
| Harry Chickpea wrote:
> "G M D" <gmd@NOSPAM.pchg.net> wrote:
>
>
> Mother Earth News had an article on it in the 1970s/80s. IIRC, the
> trick is to not extract so much heat that you slow the heat producing
> digestion process down to a point where it stops. Other than that it
> works. I think there were some charts of outputs, etc. The website
> might have the article archived.
>
Mother Earth news did one better they have CD of back issues for sale
last issue i picked up had an ad for them.
70's to 80's and 80's to 90's something were offered.
Check out their website and find out how much. it is linked on the left
hand side toward the top.
TSS
| |
| Arnold Walker 2005-08-08, 9:21 pm |
|
<nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu> wrote in message
news:dcn21r$fjf@acadia.ece.villanova.edu...
> G M D <gmd@NOSPAM.pchg.net> wrote:
>
>
> It's not crazy. Composting makes about 10 Btu/lb of heat, like wood
burning,
> based on dry weight, and with enough temperature (eg 130 F) and oxygen
> (10% min?) and moisture (50% by weight) and the right mix (25:1 C/N
ratio),
> it can disappear at a rate of 15% per day.
>
> Keeping the temp up requires a large pile, eg m^3 min. O2 requires turning
> or aeration with a blower, moisture might come from a soaker hose with a
> humidistat, and horse manure and bedding straw be close to the right mix.
>
> That said, it takes a lot of pipe surface to extract heat efficiently from
> a manure pile, and how do we replace the compost with fresh manure without
> disturbing the pipes?
>
> I've thought about heating greenhouses with compost inside large cylinders
> made from rings of used tires, but the greenhouses are not very near the
> horses, and moving the manure and compost isn't easy. Circulating a little
> warm moist air between the cylinders and the greenhouses seems easier than
> using pipes, with condensation inside the greenhouses and desirable CO2
> enrichment. Anna Edey mixed chickens and compost and greenhouses, with a
> compost air filter to keep the chickens healthier...
>
> Nick
No problem,horsemanure steambike (www.selectmotor.net) could roll your
manure piles.
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