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Smart use of SmartPower
|
|
| glenlow@pixelglow.com 2005-08-12, 9:21 am |
| Hi All
I'm from Perth (Down Under in Australia to you North Hemisphere folk)
and my home power bill usually gets pretty bad, like $300/month. We are
currently on our power utility (monopoly)'s flat rate of 13.94 c/kWh,
and I'm thinking of switching to their tiered rate "SmartPower" which
goes as low as 6.56 c/kWh from 9pm to 7am. However SmartPower has a
little sting in that some time periods go as high as 20.22 c/kWh
(11am-5pm summers, 7-11am and 5-9pm winters).
http://www.westernpower.com.au/home...ower_rates.html
So if I shift my power bill *entirely* over to the low tier I could
save $150 a month.
Now, is it possible for me rig up some sort of cheap battery system
which charges up overnight and discharges into either the grid or my
home system during the high periods? Anything that would pay for itself
in say 2 years and factoring maintenance costs? Or is this a pipe
dream?
Cheers,
Glen Low, Pixelglow Software
www.pixelglow.com
| |
|
|
<glenlow@pixelglow.com> wrote in message
news:1123847634.254818.115630@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> Hi All
>
> I'm from Perth (Down Under in
> Australia to you North Hemisphere folk)
Hi, how are the flies down there? ;-)
> and my home power bill usually gets pretty bad, like $300/month. We are
> currently on our power utility (monopoly)'s flat rate of 13.94 c/kWh,
> and I'm thinking of switching to their tiered rate "SmartPower" which
> goes as low as 6.56 c/kWh from 9pm to 7am. However SmartPower has a
> little sting in that some time periods go as high as 20.22 c/kWh
> (11am-5pm summers, 7-11am and 5-9pm winters).
>
http://www.westernpower.com.au/home...wer/smartpower_
rates.html
>
> So if I shift my power bill *entirely* over to the low tier I could
> save $150 a month.
>
> Now, is it possible for me rig up some sort of cheap battery system
> which charges up overnight and discharges into either the grid or my
> home system during the high periods? Anything that would pay for itself
> in say 2 years and factoring maintenance costs? Or is this a pipe
> dream?
>
> Cheers,
> Glen Low, Pixelglow Software
> www.pixelglow.com
If electricity is so expensive, and you only have one supplier, then switch
to cheaper means of energy for various appliances. Do you have piped gas in
Perth? If so is it cheaper? if so then consider gas water heating. Is LPG
cheaper to run? Consider that. I assume you don't need heating in Perth.
Is that so? I know in Melbourne they need it. Then switch to energy
efficient electrical appliances.
| |
| SQLit 2005-08-12, 12:21 pm |
|
<glenlow@pixelglow.com> wrote in message
news:1123847634.254818.115630@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> Hi All
>
> I'm from Perth (Down Under in Australia to you North Hemisphere folk)
> and my home power bill usually gets pretty bad, like $300/month. We are
> currently on our power utility (monopoly)'s flat rate of 13.94 c/kWh,
> and I'm thinking of switching to their tiered rate "SmartPower" which
> goes as low as 6.56 c/kWh from 9pm to 7am. However SmartPower has a
> little sting in that some time periods go as high as 20.22 c/kWh
> (11am-5pm summers, 7-11am and 5-9pm winters).
>
>
http://www.westernpower.com.au/home...ower_rates.html
>
> So if I shift my power bill *entirely* over to the low tier I could
> save $150 a month.
>
> Now, is it possible for me rig up some sort of cheap battery system
> which charges up overnight and discharges into either the grid or my
> home system during the high periods? Anything that would pay for itself
> in say 2 years and factoring maintenance costs? Or is this a pipe
> dream?
>
> Cheers,
> Glen Low, Pixelglow Software
> www.pixelglow.com
Tiered electrical rates have been around for a long time where I live in
Arizona.
I do not use them cause I work from home most of the time. My primary load
is cooling and is esseciantial during the day. I do raise the temp up to
81-82 degrees but that is as high as I can stand.
If you can shift or reduce usage during the peak periods you might be able
to save some money. Half may be aggressive.
Can you raise your a/c more than 8 degrees during that period? Do you have
an electric water heater timer?
You do not mention the loads you have so it is impossible to council you on
a plan.
I am guessing but you will spend way more on a battery system than it will
be able to withstand.
Maybe you should consider a generator during peak periods. Talk to a pro in
your area for the exact requirements. I am not at all familiar with the
Australian electrical code.
| |
| Ford Prefect 2005-08-12, 1:21 pm |
|
SQLit wrote:
> <glenlow@pixelglow.com> wrote in message
> news:1123847634.254818.115630@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>
>
> http://www.westernpower.com.au/home...ower_rates.html
>
>
>
> Tiered electrical rates have been around for a long time where I live in
> Arizona.
> I do not use them cause I work from home most of the time. My primary load
> is cooling and is esseciantial during the day. I do raise the temp up to
> 81-82 degrees but that is as high as I can stand.
>
> If you can shift or reduce usage during the peak periods you might be able
> to save some money. Half may be aggressive.
>
> Can you raise your a/c more than 8 degrees during that period? Do you have
> an electric water heater timer?
>
> You do not mention the loads you have so it is impossible to council you on
> a plan.
> I am guessing but you will spend way more on a battery system than it will
> be able to withstand.
> Maybe you should consider a generator during peak periods. Talk to a pro in
> your area for the exact requirements. I am not at all familiar with the
> Australian electrical code.
>
>
From my experience every time a large company comes out with a way to
"Save you money" you end up getting it up the rear end. The bean
counters look at averages and set it up so you can't really win ;~)
| |
| GeekBoy 2005-08-12, 1:21 pm |
|
"News" <Nospam@here.com> wrote in message
news:42fc944a$0$64910$892e7fe2@authen.white.readfreenews.net...
>
> <glenlow@pixelglow.com> wrote in message
> news:1123847634.254818.115630@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>
> Hi, how are the flies down there? ;-)
>
> http://www.westernpower.com.au/home...wer/smartpower_
> rates.html
>
> If electricity is so expensive, and you only have one supplier, then
> switch
> to cheaper means of energy for various appliances. Do you have piped gas
> in
> Perth? If so is it cheaper? if so then consider gas water heating. Is
> LPG
> cheaper to run?
Not only that, but also solar collectors to help heat the water. These
devices can easily heat the water as hot as any water heater.
> Consider that. I assume you don't need heating in Perth.
> Is that so? I know in Melbourne they need it. Then switch to energy
> efficient electrical appliances.
>
>
>
| |
| rdezeeuw@gmail.com 2005-08-12, 5:21 pm |
| This applies to electricity in the USA.
The first item that you need is an inverter. You can purchase a
Modified Sine, 2400 watt (4800 watt surge) for around 900 USD (Xantrex
DR2412). The DR2412 includes a battery charger. The charger would
recharge the batteries during the "cheap" time.
Then you need to have enough batteries to provide you with as many
watts for as long as you need the power for. Check out solar websites
for batteries. You can purchase 6 volt or 12 volt deep cycle batteries
(http://www.trojan-battery.com/Produ...ableEnergy.aspx).
Golf car batteries are good to start with.
http://www.backwoodssolar.com/Catal...x2/Catalog2.htm is a good
place to start.
I would think it would cost you about 2,000 USD...also, remember that
batteries do have a lifetime.
Rick
| |
| rdezeeuw@gmail.com 2005-08-12, 5:21 pm |
| This applies to electricity in the USA.
The first item that you need is an inverter. You can purchase a
Modified Sine, 2400 watt (4800 watt surge) for around 900 USD (Xantrex
DR2412). The DR2412 includes a battery charger. The charger would
recharge the batteries during the "cheap" time.
Then you need to have enough batteries to provide you with as many
watts for as long as you need the power for. Check out solar websites
for batteries. You can purchase 6 volt or 12 volt deep cycle batteries
(http://www.trojan-battery.com/Produ...ableEnergy.aspx).
Golf car batteries are good to start with.
http://www.backwoodssolar.com/Catal...x2/Catalog2.htm is a good
place to start.
I would think it would cost you about 2,000 USD...also, remember that
batteries do have a lifetime.
Rick
| |
| Roger_Nickel 2005-08-12, 7:21 pm |
| glenlow@pixelglow.com wrote:
> Hi All
>
> I'm from Perth (Down Under in Australia to you North Hemisphere folk)
> and my home power bill usually gets pretty bad, like $300/month. We are
> currently on our power utility (monopoly)'s flat rate of 13.94 c/kWh,
> and I'm thinking of switching to their tiered rate "SmartPower" which
> goes as low as 6.56 c/kWh from 9pm to 7am. However SmartPower has a
> little sting in that some time periods go as high as 20.22 c/kWh
> (11am-5pm summers, 7-11am and 5-9pm winters).
>
> http://www.westernpower.com.au/home...ower_rates.html
>
> So if I shift my power bill *entirely* over to the low tier I could
> save $150 a month.
>
> Now, is it possible for me rig up some sort of cheap battery system
> which charges up overnight and discharges into either the grid or my
> home system during the high periods? Anything that would pay for itself
> in say 2 years and factoring maintenance costs? Or is this a pipe
> dream?
>
> Cheers,
> Glen Low, Pixelglow Software
> www.pixelglow.com
>
Take a look at the Solar Hart water heaters. They are designed and
built in Australia. My brother in Wellington has one and it heats
all of the water for four people. It's a quality unit which will
probably knock 30% off your power bill if you have electric hot
water. Installed cost was just under NZ$6000, not cheap but the
thing is designed to last, includes a built in electric heater
(hardly ever needed in Wellington so almost certainly not needed
in Perth) and will soon pay for itself.
| |
|
|
"GeekBoy" <GeeksRUs@geek.com> wrote in message
news:1123862155.096b1f7fd44e3a905b27007395b752fa@teranews...
>
> "News" <Nospam@here.com> wrote in message
> news:42fc944a$0$64910$892e7fe2@authen.white.readfreenews.net...
http://www.westernpower.com.au/home...wer/smartpower_[color=darkred]
gas[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
> Not only that, but also solar collectors to help heat the water. These
> devices can easily heat the water as hot as any water heater.
In Perth, yes.
[color=darkred]
| |
| Don Kelly 2005-08-13, 2:21 am |
|
"Ford Prefect" <paintmeblue@pagan.org> wrote in message
news:ee3Le.9899$yH2.605575@news20.bellglobal.com...
>
>
> SQLit wrote:
>
>
> From my experience every time a large company comes out with a way to
> "Save you money" you end up getting it up the rear end. The bean counters
> look at averages and set it up so you can't really win ;~)
------------
Not necessarily- If, by price variability during the day, the need for
peaking plant (generally high fuel cost) is reduced and the load on base
plant is more steady, then all can gain. It is a fact that at peak periods,
the cost of energy generation and delivery is highest. The customer pays for
this so that encouraging the customer to shift loads to off peak times by a
reflection of the true cost, is more effective in reducing overall costs to
both producer and customer than simply saying "save energy" .
On the other hand, if by deregulation, the supplier/consumer relationship
has changed for the worse (as, I ,in my personal opinion, think has
happened), then the Enron scenario takes over. Utilities used to have an
objective of keeping rates as low as possible rather than going for short
term gain.
--
Don Kelly @shawcross.ca
remove the X to answer
----------------------------
| |
| Ford Prefect 2005-08-13, 10:21 am |
|
Don Kelly wrote:
> "Ford Prefect" <paintmeblue@pagan.org> wrote in message
> news:ee3Le.9899$yH2.605575@news20.bellglobal.com...
>
>
> ------------
> Not necessarily- If, by price variability during the day, the need for
> peaking plant (generally high fuel cost) is reduced and the load on base
> plant is more steady, then all can gain. It is a fact that at peak periods,
> the cost of energy generation and delivery is highest. The customer pays for
> this so that encouraging the customer to shift loads to off peak times by a
> reflection of the true cost, is more effective in reducing overall costs to
> both producer and customer than simply saying "save energy" .
>
> On the other hand, if by deregulation, the supplier/consumer relationship
> has changed for the worse (as, I ,in my personal opinion, think has
> happened), then the Enron scenario takes over. Utilities used to have an
> objective of keeping rates as low as possible rather than going for short
> term gain.
>
Nah, they just shift the price around so you end up paying more than
then under the old flat residential rate. They know the vast majority of
people don't have time to piss about doing laundry at 2:00AM. It's the
same principal of mail in rebates, studies show them that many people
never get around to sending in for the rebate ;~)
| |
| Dave Hinz 2005-08-13, 11:21 am |
| On Sat, 13 Aug 2005 08:20:53 -0400, Ford Prefect <paintmeblue@pagan.org> wrote:
>
> Nah, they just shift the price around so you end up paying more than
> then under the old flat residential rate. They know the vast majority of
> people don't have time to piss about doing laundry at 2:00AM. It's the
> same principal of mail in rebates, studies show them that many people
> never get around to sending in for the rebate ;~)
While I admire your cynicism, in the case of "time of use" as it's
called here, I save several hundred dollars per year, and the power
company sends me an analysis of my usage either yearly or on request.
So. Given that my off-peak electricity rate is 1/5th of my on-peak
rate, how can I leverage that delta? 50% efficiency on an 80% discount
is acceptable. How do we use the excess capacity off-peak to save
money? I use it for thermal purposes, mostly. Electric water heater
with a timer. It's large enough for laundry day during the day; we
rarely run out of hot water during on-peak times, and if we do, we can
"flip the switch" (or just plan ahead and do laundry after 7:PM).
I also use the cheap electricity during the winter, to run a different
water heater which is my heat source for the hydronic tubing in my
basement and kitchen floors. I get one degree of temperature rise per
hour when it's on, and that's cheaper heat than my other option for
fuel, which is Propane. During the day, propane is cheaper, so the
furnace rings up the temp if needed.
So. At what point could an electric battery bank / invertor setup work
for daytime power? Efficiency just needs to be good enough to get
payback, given the huge delta in price of on-peak and off-peak power.
Skepticism of their motivations and all that aside, how do we leverage
the real price differences most effectively?
Dave Hinz
| |
| Ford Prefect 2005-08-13, 11:21 am |
|
Dave Hinz wrote:
> On Sat, 13 Aug 2005 08:20:53 -0400, Ford Prefect <paintmeblue@pagan.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> While I admire your cynicism, in the case of "time of use" as it's
> called here, I save several hundred dollars per year, and the power
> company sends me an analysis of my usage either yearly or on request.
>
> So. Given that my off-peak electricity rate is 1/5th of my on-peak
> rate, how can I leverage that delta? 50% efficiency on an 80% discount
> is acceptable. How do we use the excess capacity off-peak to save
> money? I use it for thermal purposes, mostly. Electric water heater
> with a timer. It's large enough for laundry day during the day; we
> rarely run out of hot water during on-peak times, and if we do, we can
> "flip the switch" (or just plan ahead and do laundry after 7:PM).
>
> I also use the cheap electricity during the winter, to run a different
> water heater which is my heat source for the hydronic tubing in my
> basement and kitchen floors. I get one degree of temperature rise per
> hour when it's on, and that's cheaper heat than my other option for
> fuel, which is Propane. During the day, propane is cheaper, so the
> furnace rings up the temp if needed.
>
> So. At what point could an electric battery bank / invertor setup work
> for daytime power? Efficiency just needs to be good enough to get
> payback, given the huge delta in price of on-peak and off-peak power.
> Skepticism of their motivations and all that aside, how do we leverage
> the real price differences most effectively?
>
> Dave Hinz
>
Answer me this,
1. How much has it cost to set all this up
2. How much was your flat rate before the switch to time metered usage
You'll probably find the original flat rate is very close to what the
average you pay now with the multi tiered system.
| |
|
|
> While I admire your cynicism, in the case of "time of use" as it's
> called here, I save several hundred dollars per year, and the power
> company sends me an analysis of my usage either yearly or on request.
http://perfectpowernetwork.com/depa...0104/0/1/Grid--
Tie-Inverter_.htm Take a look at the link above for a "grid tied
inverter". If the inverter doesn't have a built in charger, you could
rig a battery charger that would charge the batteries while electricity
is cheap, and a relay to disconnect the inverter at the same time.
When the price goes up, connect the inverter, and it supplies at least
a portion of your power needs while synced with the grid. You could
just use the solar panels that have a small microprocessor controlled
inverter built onto the panel, when it produces power, it syncs with
the grid and supplies electricity. This would be during your "peak"
price times, during the day.
http://www.mrsolar.com/Merchant2/me...&Store_Code=MSO
S&Category_Code=ce is a link to some systems.
http://www.gslc.qld.edu.au/about/So...r%20Project.pdf is a link
to a page that discusses a school in Australia that installed a grid
tied solar system, it takes a while to download on dial up, but it's
worth it. I have no idea of return on investment times, just throwing
out some ideas. What do you think?
Herb
>
> So. Given that my off-peak electricity rate is 1/5th of my on-peak
> rate, how can I leverage that delta? 50% efficiency on an 80%
> discount is acceptable. How do we use the excess capacity off-peak
> to save money? I use it for thermal purposes, mostly. Electric
> water heater with a timer. It's large enough for laundry day during
> the day; we rarely run out of hot water during on-peak times, and if
> we do, we can "flip the switch" (or just plan ahead and do laundry
> after 7:PM).
>
> I also use the cheap electricity during the winter, to run a different
> water heater which is my heat source for the hydronic tubing in my
> basement and kitchen floors. I get one degree of temperature rise per
> hour when it's on, and that's cheaper heat than my other option for
> fuel, which is Propane. During the day, propane is cheaper, so the
> furnace rings up the temp if needed.
>
> So. At what point could an electric battery bank / invertor setup
> work for daytime power? Efficiency just needs to be good enough to
> get payback, given the huge delta in price of on-peak and off-peak
> power. Skepticism of their motivations and all that aside, how do we
> leverage the real price differences most effectively?
>
> Dave Hinz
| |
|
|
| Don Kelly 2005-08-14, 1:21 am |
| "Ford Prefect" <paintmeblue@pagan.org> wrote in message
news:rYmLe.16739$yH2.805362@news20.bellglobal.com...
>
>
> Dave Hinz wrote:
>
> Answer me this,
>
> 1. How much has it cost to set all this up
> 2. How much was your flat rate before the switch to time metered usage
>
> You'll probably find the original flat rate is very close to what the
> average you pay now with the multi tiered system.
Possibly so but then the incentive to change to a "time of day" rate is lost
so there is no point in changing. Properly done, the time of day rate can
change load factors and reduce the use of high cost peaking plant so both
utility and customer can gain.
--
Don Kelly @shawcross.ca
remove the X to answer
----------------------------
| |
| Roger_Nickel 2005-08-15, 3:21 am |
| Ford Prefect wrote:
>
>
> Nah, they just shift the price around so you end up paying more than
> then under the old flat residential rate. They know the vast majority of
> people don't have time to piss about doing laundry at 2:00AM. It's the
> same principal of mail in rebates, studies show them that many people
> never get around to sending in for the rebate ;~)
The new dishwashers, washing machines and dryers come with timers
to allow use wehnever you want. It's no trouble and if you have
off-peak electric water heating then you can run the energy hog
appliances off the same meter.
| |
| Ford Prefect 2005-08-15, 11:21 am |
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Roger_Nickel wrote:
> Ford Prefect wrote:
>
>
>
> The new dishwashers, washing machines and dryers come with timers to
> allow use wehnever you want. It's no trouble and if you have off-peak
> electric water heating then you can run the energy hog appliances off
> the same meter.
That only works if you have one load to do, we do at least three loads
of laundry everyday. As far hot water goes I wash all the clothes in
cold water, have for years. The only advantage I can see for off peak
metered electricity would be if you had an electric car you could
recharge overnight.
| |
| Dave Hinz 2005-08-15, 11:21 am |
| On Sat, 13 Aug 2005 09:56:10 -0400, Ford Prefect <paintmeblue@pagan.org> wrote:
>
> Dave Hinz wrote:
>
> Answer me this,
> 1. How much has it cost to set all this up
My hydronic system? I don't remember, to be honest, but I was going to
use it anyway so it's effectively zero extra for this purpose.
> 2. How much was your flat rate before the switch to time metered usage
It's about in the middle.
> You'll probably find the original flat rate is very close to what the
> average you pay now with the multi tiered system.
I believe I mentioned that I save several hundred dollars per year, so I
would submit that I am actually saving money. That is, if I trust their
bills, which if I don't, I have nothing to work with anyway.
So. Given the huge delta between on and off-peak rates, do you have any
suggestions on how to leverage it? When your efficiency just has to
beat 20%, it makes the exercise a bunch easier, doesn't it?
| |
| Dave Hinz 2005-08-15, 11:21 am |
| On Sat, 13 Aug 2005 15:54:21 GMT, Herb <wraithe22@hotmail.com> wrote:
(snip)
> grid
> tied solar system, it takes a while to download on dial up, but it's
> worth it. I have no idea of return on investment times, just throwing
> out some ideas. What do you think?
Well, I lose power often enough that having emergency power generation
would be nice. If this invertor could also act as a UPS for the house,
I get a double benefit from it.
Thanks for the links
Dave Hinz
| |
| Dave Hinz 2005-08-15, 11:21 am |
| On Mon, 15 Aug 2005 09:11:30 -0400, Ford Prefect <paintmeblue@pagan.org> wrote:
>
> That only works if you have one load to do, we do at least three loads
> of laundry everyday. As far hot water goes I wash all the clothes in
> cold water, have for years. The only advantage I can see for off peak
> metered electricity would be if you had an electric car you could
> recharge overnight.
Well, OK, I guess you don't see my thermal mass explaination as a valid
one. Care to explain why? Seems to me that BTUs into the house, for
lower cost than propane, comes out ahead for me. Maybe I'm wrong?
| |
| Derek Broughton 2005-08-15, 12:21 pm |
| Ford Prefect wrote:
> Roger_Nickel wrote:
>
> That only works if you have one load to do, we do at least three loads
> of laundry everyday.
You'd still save a little electricity on one overnight load. Still, I
wouldn't consider a washing machine to be an "energy hog appliance".
> As far hot water goes I wash all the clothes in
> cold water, have for years.
Yeah - no reason not to.
> The only advantage I can see for off peak
> metered electricity would be if you had an electric car you could
> recharge overnight.
People around here use it for electrical heating. Since we have no natural
gas distribution, we have a very high percentage of homes that are heated
electrically. The only way to get off-peak billing in Nova Scotia (I
believe) is to buy a high-temperature ceramic electric furnace. These
things only turn on at night, and then distribute the heat through the day.
--
derek
| |
| Ford Prefect 2005-08-15, 5:21 pm |
|
Dave Hinz wrote:
> On Sat, 13 Aug 2005 09:56:10 -0400, Ford Prefect <paintmeblue@pagan.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> My hydronic system? I don't remember, to be honest, but I was going to
> use it anyway so it's effectively zero extra for this purpose.
>
>
>
>
> It's about in the middle.
>
>
>
>
> I believe I mentioned that I save several hundred dollars per year, so I
> would submit that I am actually saving money. That is, if I trust their
> bills, which if I don't, I have nothing to work with anyway.
>
> So. Given the huge delta between on and off-peak rates, do you have any
> suggestions on how to leverage it? When your efficiency just has to
> beat 20%, it makes the exercise a bunch easier, doesn't it?
>
Our electricity system in Ontario, Canada has been going through the
motions of going from a public to private system, but due to pressure
from the public it has been stalled. While they were working on this
they set up a separate entity to monitor and sell power. They had a web
site that charted demand and cost during the day that showed a huge
change in cost during peak periods. Based on the figures I saw there I
was going to end up paying more to have metered power than the current
two tiered flat rate for residential we have now. Maybe it's different
in your case, but not in mine. Currently I'm paying .5-5.8 cents
kilowatt hour, using the smart meter I will pay:
7 am to 11 am- 6.4 ¢/kWh
11 am to 5 pm-9.3 ¢/kWh
5 pm to 10 pm-6.4 ¢/kWh
10 pm to 7 am 2.9 ¢/kWh
This works out to an average of 6.25 cent per kilowatt
| |
| Ford Prefect 2005-08-15, 5:21 pm |
|
Derek Broughton wrote:
> Ford Prefect wrote:
>
>
>
>
> You'd still save a little electricity on one overnight load. Still, I
> wouldn't consider a washing machine to be an "energy hog appliance".
>
>
>
>
> Yeah - no reason not to.
>
>
>
>
> People around here use it for electrical heating. Since we have no natural
> gas distribution, we have a very high percentage of homes that are heated
> electrically. The only way to get off-peak billing in Nova Scotia (I
> believe) is to buy a high-temperature ceramic electric furnace. These
> things only turn on at night, and then distribute the heat through the day.
We are lucky here in Ontario, you have your choice in many places of
gas, oil, propane or hydro. Hydro is the most expensive, I couldn't
afford to heat my house with hydro, I've got an insulated double garage
workshop with a 4500 watt 220 space heater which costs more to run than
the 80,000 btu gas furnace in my house ;~)
| |
| Solar Flare 2005-08-15, 7:21 pm |
| Yup! The public wanted them to go private.
So they did and can finally mnake a profit!
Wait 'till y'all get the bill for the IESO, IMO, IEMO or whatever name they
choose this month. When they add that to your electric bill and stop hiding
the biggest utlity in Ontario on your taxes.
California told them not to do it.
Alberta told them not to do it.
Most other provinces told them not to do it.
Most states told them not to do it.
Our politicians are smarter than all the rest of the world.
Wait until y'all get the bill from the smart meters. We throw all the $40
meters away and put in ones with two way radio systems for $140 each. Who's
gonna' pay for that now?
LOL...y'all gonna pay now boy!
"Ford Prefect" <paintmeblue@pagan.org> wrote in message
news:vO5Me.6100$7R.259772@news20.bellglobal.com...
>
>
> Dave Hinz wrote:
>
wrote:[color=darkred]
>
> Our electricity system in Ontario, Canada has been going through the
> motions of going from a public to private system, but due to pressure
> from the public it has been stalled. While they were working on this
> they set up a separate entity to monitor and sell power. They had a web
> site that charted demand and cost during the day that showed a huge
> change in cost during peak periods. Based on the figures I saw there I
> was going to end up paying more to have metered power than the current
> two tiered flat rate for residential we have now. Maybe it's different
> in your case, but not in mine. Currently I'm paying .5-5.8 cents
> kilowatt hour, using the smart meter I will pay:
>
>
> 7 am to 11 am- 6.4 ¢/kWh
>
> 11 am to 5 pm-9.3 ¢/kWh
>
> 5 pm to 10 pm-6.4 ¢/kWh
>
> 10 pm to 7 am 2.9 ¢/kWh
>
> This works out to an average of 6.25 cent per kilowatt
| |
| Solar Flare 2005-08-15, 7:21 pm |
| I can't afford to heat my indoor 25' x 100' indoor pool with electricity
either.
LOL
"Ford Prefect" <paintmeblue@pagan.org> wrote in message
news:VW5Me.8537$kz6.386843@news20.bellglobal.com...
>
>
> Derek Broughton wrote:
>
natural[color=darkred]
heated[color=darkred]
day.[color=darkred]
>
>
> We are lucky here in Ontario, you have your choice in many places of
> gas, oil, propane or hydro. Hydro is the most expensive, I couldn't
> afford to heat my house with hydro, I've got an insulated double garage
> workshop with a 4500 watt 220 space heater which costs more to run than
> the 80,000 btu gas furnace in my house ;~)
| |
|
| On Mon, 15 Aug 2005 17:25:10 -0400, "Solar Flare" <sflare@hotmail.com>
wrote:
>Wait 'till y'all get the bill for the IESO, IMO, IEMO or whatever name they
>choose this month. When they add that to your electric bill and stop hiding
>the biggest utlity in Ontario on your taxes.
You must have forgotten which ID you were posting under again there
Gymmy Bob. Please try to keep them straight - as John Benji, you live
in Ontario, but you wrote that Solar Flare was building a house in
Michigan http://tinyurl.com/9ty92. And I'm pretty sure they won't let
you run an extension cord across the border.
Wayne
| |
|
|
>I can't afford to heat my indoor 25" x 100" indoor pool with electricity
>either.
...buy a bigger trailer AFTER you roll some lil ol
lady for her superfund!
fuggit
| |
| nospam.clare.nce@sny.der.on.ca 2005-08-15, 11:21 pm |
| On Mon, 15 Aug 2005 17:25:10 -0400, "Solar Flare" <sflare@hotmail.com>
wrote:
>Yup! The public wanted them to go private.
What public wanted them to go public?
No-One I know in southwestern Ontario. We all KNEW it would be a
fiasco.
>
>So they did and can finally mnake a profit!
If they are going to make a profit, we, the Hydro using public, will
be paying extremely high prices - much higher than necessary, but
possibly less than the combined tax and hydro cost we pay now. Thing
is, when they no longer subsidise our Hydro, they'll find someplace
else to "piss it away".
>
>
>Wait 'till y'all get the bill for the IESO, IMO, IEMO or whatever name they
>choose this month. When they add that to your electric bill and stop hiding
>the biggest utlity in Ontario on your taxes.
>
>California told them not to do it.
>Alberta told them not to do it.
>Most other provinces told them not to do it.
>Most states told them not to do it.
>
>Our politicians are smarter than all the rest of the world.
>
>Wait until y'all get the bill from the smart meters. We throw all the $40
>meters away and put in ones with two way radio systems for $140 each. Who's
>gonna' pay for that now?
>
>
>LOL...y'all gonna pay now boy!
>
>
>"Ford Prefect" <paintmeblue@pagan.org> wrote in message
>news:vO5Me.6100$7R.259772@news20.bellglobal.com...
>wrote:
>
| |
| Derek Broughton 2005-08-16, 10:21 am |
| nospam.clare.nce@sny.der.on.ca wrote:
> On Mon, 15 Aug 2005 17:25:10 -0400, "Solar Flare" <sflare@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
> What public wanted them to go public?
> No-One I know in southwestern Ontario. We all KNEW it would be a
> fiasco.
I was there at the time, too, and _I_ didn't know anybody who wanted
privatization - we were watching the California fiasco as Ontario started
the process.
Ontario Hydro _always_ made a profit. Unfortunately, they weren't, by law,
allowed to turn that profit back into capital improvements, so it was
always returned to the "shareholders" (us) as a rate rebate. And then the
next round of capital investment had to be made by issuing bonds.
The solution was to allow Hydro to invest its profits in its infrastructure,
not to sell it off.
[color=darkred]
> If they are going to make a profit, we, the Hydro using public, will
> be paying extremely high prices - much higher than necessary, but
> possibly less than the combined tax and hydro cost we pay now. Thing
> is, when they no longer subsidise our Hydro, they'll find someplace
> else to "piss it away".
Our hydro was never subsidized. So you are guaranteed to be paying more
than you used to. In Nova Scotia, while the market is regulated, the
generator is private. Our government _guarantees_ them a 10% ROI. That's
10% more than we would need to pay if we owned it. No skin off my nose,
since I'm off-grid, but it burns the KWh buying public!
[color=darkred]
Just as long as I can get one of those $40 meters for my home - I really
need to start monitoring my usage.
[color=darkred]
How do you work that out _without_ a time of use meter? At constant usage,
I get that to work out to ~5.8 ¢/kWh. Assuming that your utility has
worked out "average" consumption patterns, I'd bet the "average" rate would
be much closer to 9 ¢/kWh.
If you're using some sort of high-mass, electric heating system, your
average rate is going to come out much closer to the bottom.
--
derek
| |
| Ford Prefect 2005-08-16, 4:21 pm |
|
Derek Broughton wrote:
> nospam.clare.nce@sny.der.on.ca wrote:
>
>
>
>
> I was there at the time, too, and _I_ didn't know anybody who wanted
> privatization - we were watching the California fiasco as Ontario started
> the process.
>
>
>
> Ontario Hydro _always_ made a profit. Unfortunately, they weren't, by law,
> allowed to turn that profit back into capital improvements, so it was
> always returned to the "shareholders" (us) as a rate rebate. And then the
> next round of capital investment had to be made by issuing bonds.
>
> The solution was to allow Hydro to invest its profits in its infrastructure,
> not to sell it off.
>
>
>
>
> Our hydro was never subsidized. So you are guaranteed to be paying more
> than you used to. In Nova Scotia, while the market is regulated, the
> generator is private. Our government _guarantees_ them a 10% ROI. That's
> 10% more than we would need to pay if we owned it. No skin off my nose,
> since I'm off-grid, but it burns the KWh buying public!
>
>
>
>
> Just as long as I can get one of those $40 meters for my home - I really
> need to start monitoring my usage.
>
>
>
>
> How do you work that out _without_ a time of use meter? At constant usage,
> I get that to work out to ~5.8 ¢/kWh. Assuming that your utility has
> worked out "average" consumption patterns, I'd bet the "average" rate would
> be much closer to 9 ¢/kWh.
>
> If you're using some sort of high-mass, electric heating system, your
> average rate is going to come out much closer to the bottom.
Those figures are from hydo's own web site listing what they charge
people already using the smart meters. The average was determined by
simply adding up the total (25) and dividing by 4 ;~) which equals 6.25
| |
|
| In article <vO5Me.6100$7R.259772@news20.bellglobal.com>,
Ford Prefect <paintmeblue@pagan.org> wrote:
> Our electricity system in Ontario, Canada has been going through the
> motions of going from a public to private system, but due to pressure
> from the public it has been stalled. While they were working on this
> they set up a separate entity to monitor and sell power. They had a web
> site that charted demand and cost during the day that showed a huge
> change in cost during peak periods. Based on the figures I saw there I
> was going to end up paying more to have metered power than the current
> two tiered flat rate for residential we have now. Maybe it's different
> in your case, but not in mine. Currently I'm paying .5-5.8 cents
> kilowatt hour, using the smart meter I will pay:
>
>
> 7 am to 11 am- 6.4 ¢/kWh
>
> 11 am to 5 pm-9.3 ¢/kWh
>
> 5 pm to 10 pm-6.4 ¢/kWh
>
> 10 pm to 7 am 2.9 ¢/kWh
>
> This works out to an average of 6.25 cent per kilowatt
Looks to "Me" like you should invest in a Trace 4048 and
run your house off it during the 11Am-5Pm segment, and
charge the batteries from the 10Pm-7Am segment. Do
all you energy intensive stuff, (Laundry, cooking,
ect) during the the other two segments and save a bit
of cash......
Me
| |
| Don Kelly 2005-08-16, 11:21 pm |
| Isn't that the idea? Summer peak loads this year in Ontario are daytime
loads- more expensive sources have to be brought on line ( or energy bought)
at this time.
--
Don Kelly @shawcross.ca
remove the X to answer
----------------------------
"Me" <Me@shadow.orgs> wrote in message
news:Me-3FFC35.11295016082005@netnews.worldnet.att.net...
> In article <vO5Me.6100$7R.259772@news20.bellglobal.com>,
> Ford Prefect <paintmeblue@pagan.org> wrote:
>
>
> Looks to "Me" like you should invest in a Trace 4048 and
> run your house off it during the 11Am-5Pm segment, and
> charge the batteries from the 10Pm-7Am segment. Do
> all you energy intensive stuff, (Laundry, cooking,
> ect) during the the other two segments and save a bit
> of cash......
>
>
> Me
| |
| Ford Prefect 2005-08-17, 12:21 am |
|
Me wrote:
> In article <vO5Me.6100$7R.259772@news20.bellglobal.com>,
> Ford Prefect <paintmeblue@pagan.org> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Looks to "Me" like you should invest in a Trace 4048 and
> run your house off it during the 11Am-5Pm segment, and
> charge the batteries from the 10Pm-7Am segment. Do
> all you energy intensive stuff, (Laundry, cooking,
> ect) during the the other two segments and save a bit
> of cash......
>
>
> Me
Sure..... Spend over a grand on batteries, two grand on a 4048 and who
know how much more on peripherals so I can save $20.00 a month?
| |
| Solar Flare 2005-08-17, 1:21 am |
| Not in Ontario they aren't. The model of "Smart Meter" hasn't been decided
upon by the Ontario government, it's features haven't been decided on and
none have been approved for usage anywhere in Canada by Measurement Canada
yet.
"Ford Prefect" <paintmeblue@pagan.org> wrote in message
news:zzqMe.7184$7R.434887@news20.bellglobal.com...
> people already using the smart meters. The average was determined by
> simply adding up the total (25) and dividing by 4 ;~) which equals 6.25
| |
| Derek Broughton 2005-08-17, 9:21 am |
| Ford Prefect wrote:
> Derek Broughton wrote:
>
>
> Those figures are from hydo's own web site listing what they charge
> people already using the smart meters. The average was determined by
> simply adding up the total (25) and dividing by 4 ;~) which equals 6.25
Ow! They sure know how to play with numbers. That definition of an average
makes my head hurt.
--
derek
| |
| Dave Hinz 2005-08-17, 12:21 pm |
| On Tue, 16 Aug 2005 22:29:44 -0400, Ford Prefect <paintmeblue@pagan.org> wrote:
>
> Sure..... Spend over a grand on batteries, two grand on a 4048 and who
> know how much more on peripherals so I can save $20.00 a month?
Well, if you plan to have that be the only purpose for those batteries,
maybe. We lost power 3 times in the last week. How's your feed? I'm
guessing it's better. I'm sick of resetting everything and wouldn't
mind having a UPS to cover at least some of the household's load.
Sometimes the picture is bigger than the immediately obvious use for
something.
| |
| Ford Prefect 2005-08-17, 1:21 pm |
|
Solar Flare wrote:
> Not in Ontario they aren't. The model of "Smart Meter" hasn't been decided
> upon by the Ontario government, it's features haven't been decided on and
> none have been approved for usage anywhere in Canada by Measurement Canada
> yet.
>
> "Ford Prefect" <paintmeblue@pagan.org> wrote in message
> news:zzqMe.7184$7R.434887@news20.bellglobal.com...
>
>
>
>
Here's where I got the information
http://www.ieso.ca/imoweb/siteshared/smart_meters.asp
http://www.powerwise.ca/html/smartmeters.shtml
| |
| Solar Flare 2005-08-17, 7:21 pm |
| Here are some quotes. Read carefully. They have not chosen one yet and they
don't exist for legal usage in Canada. More and more is bullshit because
they aren't any yet.
"In Ontario, all homes and businesses will be equipped with smart meters by
the end of the decade"
"By 2006, more and more Ontarians will begin to use smart meters in their
homes -- first in major urban centres, with rural areas to follow. "
The IESO has not been able to decide on a permanent name for itself (after
three names to date), it cannot decide what rules to go by what they
actually intend to do. A new utility called "Meterco" is to be established
in Ontario to provide all these high tech WiFi, networkable meters to the
utilities that cannot afford the cost of them, let alone the 200-300%
increase in staff to install these "energy wasters". Who will foot the bill
for more governement circle runners to police the "police police"? The
rates, times and rules ahve been altered many, many times to date to the
point the utilities don't even listen to tham anymore. Most are waiting for
a decision to come out before they spend a penny. Usually this is wise
because after your first million spent the rules will be pulled back and you
wasted your money.
Who will foot the bill for more governement circle runners to police the
"police police"? The IESO will now have it's own policing company appointed
by the government to make sure the IESO is doing the right thing. When will
it stop? The IESO are running around with a big stick and don't even know
why they are holding it.
You, the public energy bill payers, haven't seen anything yet!
IMO/IEMO/ISO/IESO ffffffst! What a joke! Get a job to start at $85K for a
system monitor person. You may have to study up to understand what a volt
and amp are first though.
"Ford Prefect" <paintmeblue@pagan.org> wrote in message
news:%9JMe.7914$7R.577324@news20.bellglobal.com...
>
>
> Solar Flare wrote:
decided[color=darkred]
and[color=darkred]
Canada[color=darkred]
>
> Here's where I got the information
>
> http://www.ieso.ca/imoweb/siteshared/smart_meters.asp
> http://www.powerwise.ca/html/smartmeters.shtml
| |
| nospam.clare.nce@sny.der.on.ca 2005-08-17, 11:21 pm |
| On Tue, 16 Aug 2005 23:38:43 -0400, "Solar Flare" <sflare@hotmail.com>
wrote:
>Not in Ontario they aren't. The model of "Smart Meter" hasn't been decided
>upon by the Ontario government, it's features haven't been decided on and
>none have been approved for usage anywhere in Canada by Measurement Canada
>yet.
>
>"Ford Prefect" <paintmeblue@pagan.org> wrote in message
>news:zzqMe.7184$7R.434887@news20.bellglobal.com...
>
They are in use in Woodstock Ontario.
| |
| Solar Flare 2005-08-18, 12:21 am |
| Bullshit. State the model in use! RIM has the contract (or will have) to
install the radios but the specs aren't decided.
The model has not been chosen or approved for usage by the IESO. The rest
are only mass memory meters, usually with phone lines and Sticks for
interrogation, and not the smart meters. The "Smart Meter" doesn't exist in
Ontario yet.
<nospam.clare.nce@sny.der.on.ca> wrote in message
news:l5p7g1tvvr2grva4op62mdv6tprlv76j2f@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 16 Aug 2005 23:38:43 -0400, "Solar Flare" <sflare@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
decided[color=darkred]
and[color=darkred]
Canada[color=darkred]
> They are in use in Woodstock Ontario.
| |
| Derek Broughton 2005-08-18, 10:21 am |
| Solar Flare wrote:
> Bullshit. State the model in use! RIM has the contract (or will have) to
> install the radios but the specs aren't decided.
I'd rather like to see your sources, too. I'm not sure why you think they
would need to be WiFi - there have been telephone line connected devices
for years (for remote reading of the meter - I don't know, but suspect,
that's how it's being done now). Just because there's a standards
organization that can't get it's act together has never yet stopped
technology from advancing.
You've stated that "none have been approved for usage anywhere in Canada by
Measurement Canada", yet Nova Scotia has time-of-use billing and special
meters:
http://www.nspower.ca/YourHome/Home...rage/etsqa.html
Either your data is out of date, Measurement Canada has not such authority,
or NS Power is violating the law.
Perhaps I'll remember to drop by the neighbour's place tonight and check his
meter model.
--
derek
| |
| Solar Flare 2005-08-18, 4:21 pm |
| Oh yeah, Ontario has TOU billing and metering also but the home versions
(Smart Metering) hasn't been approved by the Canadian Gov or decided what
the spec is. TOU is not all there is to Smart Meters.
One of the issues is they may decide to control your water heater for peak
control. Something that was removed in this town back in the 60s due to low
tech problems.
There is nothing to show you cites for, as there is nothing in place.
In Ontario TOU has never been required or legal below 5MW demand. hmmmm. I
believe they may have lowered that to 1MW in the last year or two.
"Derek Broughton" <news@pointerstop.ca> wrote in message
news:ebaet2-vk8.ln1@othello.pointerstop.ca...
> Solar Flare wrote:
>
to[color=darkred]
>
> I'd rather like to see your sources, too. I'm not sure why you think they
> would need to be WiFi - there have been telephone line connected devices
> for years (for remote reading of the meter - I don't know, but suspect,
> that's how it's being done now). Just because there's a standards
> organization that can't get it's act together has never yet stopped
> technology from advancing.
>
> You've stated that "none have been approved for usage anywhere in Canada
by
> Measurement Canada", yet Nova Scotia has time-of-use billing and special
> meters:
>
http://www.nspower.ca/YourHome/Home...rage/etsqa.html
>
> Either your data is out of date, Measurement Canada has not such
authority,
> or NS Power is violating the law.
>
> Perhaps I'll remember to drop by the neighbour's place tonight and check
his
> meter model.
> --
> derek
| |
| nospam.clare.nce@sny.der.on.ca 2005-08-18, 10:21 pm |
| On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 23:06:49 -0400, "Solar Flare" <sflare@hotmail.com>
wrote:
>Bullshit. State the model in use! RIM has the contract (or will have) to
>install the radios but the specs aren't decided.
>
>The model has not been chosen or approved for usage by the IESO. The rest
>are only mass memory meters, usually with phone lines and Sticks for
>interrogation, and not the smart meters. The "Smart Meter" doesn't exist in
>Ontario yet.
>
I guess it depends on how smart - just smart, genius, or Mensa.
They are "prepaid" meters and are referred to as "smart meters"
see: http://www.oeb.gov.on.ca/documents/...tock_300804.pdf
and: http://www.ec.gc.ca/pp/en/storyoutput.cfm?storyid=109
and:
http://www.energyprobe.org/energypr...&ContentID=8796
| |
| Derek Broughton 2005-08-18, 10:21 pm |
| Solar Flare wrote:
> Oh yeah, Ontario has TOU billing and metering also but the home versions
> (Smart Metering) hasn't been approved by the Canadian Gov or decided what
> the spec is. TOU is not all there is to Smart Meters.
That's twice you've said "Canadian". You're plain, flat out, wrong. Nova
Scotia has _home use_ time-of-use billing. They don't need a "spec", they
need certifiable measuring devices that can tell at what time the power was
used. afaik, the "Canadian Gov" would be in hot water if they tried to
regulate how and why a provincially regulated utility could offer TOU
metering.
--
derek
| |
| Solar Flare 2005-08-19, 6:21 pm |
| Yes, some meter types have been approved by Measurement Canada but not the
ones desired for Ontario by the IESO.
The ones desired for IESO in Ontario have not been decided upon and no
approvals for this meter type have been approved by the necessary Canadian
authority.
Can you demonstrate cites or references for your claims in Ontario? I and
all the electrical utilities would lve to see what they are all waiting for.
What is the meter type and it's capabilties for Nova Scotia? Tell us more
about the mass memeory download techniques. Are they RF or dial up or direct
connect?
"Derek Broughton" <news@pointerstop.ca> wrote in message
news:kinft2-eq6.ln1@othello.pointerstop.ca...
> Solar Flare wrote:
>
what[color=darkred]
>
> That's twice you've said "Canadian". You're plain, flat out, wrong. Nova
> Scotia has _home use_ time-of-use billing. They don't need a "spec", they
> need certifiable measuring devices that can tell at what time the power
was
> used. afaik, the "Canadian Gov" would be in hot water if they tried to
> regulate how and why a provincially regulated utility could offer TOU
> metering.
> --
> derek
| |
| Solar Flare 2005-08-19, 7:21 pm |
| Prepaid meters are not "smart meters" and Mr Roth needs to correct his
misuse of the term or get a real job. Prepaying a meter is in no way related
to a "Smart Meter" as will be defined by the OEB for use in Ontario starting
April 1, 2006.
The misnoimer used is probably due the the use of a "Smart Card" to credit
the meter with energy allowance for the consumer. These meters do not
support TOU, multi rate billing, or any other form using mass memory
profiling.
Prepaid meters have been in existence since the 1940s. I have a few sample
of the earlier types.
Sorry. Close but no cigar
<nospam.clare.nce@sny.der.on.ca> wrote in message
news:749ag15guhqmnu7puaccle5p9ube78vpjf@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 23:06:49 -0400, "Solar Flare" <sflare@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
in[color=darkred]
>
> I guess it depends on how smart - just smart, genius, or Mensa.
> They are "prepaid" meters and are referred to as "smart meters"
>
> see: http://www.oeb.gov.on.ca/documents/...tock_300804.pdf
> and: http://www.ec.gc.ca/pp/en/storyoutput.cfm?storyid=109
> and:
>
http://www.energyprobe.org/energypr...&ContentID=8796
>
>
>
| |
| Norman Webb 2005-08-20, 1:21 am |
| I must be in the next suburb from you and we have a bimonthly bill off $180
plus about $30 a quarter for gas.
My question is how many wifes and duaghters do you have?
Power use is a life style thing.
We have gas stove and gas room heater. Our hot water is solar preheat plus
80litre electric HWS. We have evaporative aircon which includes a fan and
contoller which sucks hot air from the roof cavity into the house in winter.
We do cold water clothes washing, don't use a clothes dryer and I wash the
dishes.
We have 2 tvs and stereos, 2 computers, radios, and walwarts by the dozen
etc etc.
For my money gas cooking especially is the way to go cos when the lights go
out you can still brew a coffee.
I also have the title of "Light Nazi" from my diligence in getting people to
turn lights off.
The Smart power is only of use for hotwater storage, bore pumps where the
device is ONLY turned on during the cheap time. Run out of water during the
day and you will have to manually fireup the water heater.
I don't thinks batteries would be economic at all.
One option is grid feed where you use wind or solar power to run an inverter
for your household needs and any excess is fed back into the grid. This
option is also probably not economic and is more feelgood.
glenlow@pixelglow.com wrote in message
<1123847634.254818.115630@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>...
>Hi All
>
>I'm from Perth (Down Under in Australia to you North Hemisphere folk)
>and my home power bill usually gets pretty bad, like $300/month. We are
>currently on our power utility (monopoly)'s flat rate of 13.94 c/kWh,
>and I'm thinking of switching to their tiered rate "SmartPower" which
>goes as low as 6.56 c/kWh from 9pm to 7am. However SmartPower has a
>little sting in that some time periods go as high as 20.22 c/kWh
>(11am-5pm summers, 7-11am and 5-9pm winters).
>
>http://www.westernpower.com.au/home...ower/smartpower
_rates.html
>
>So if I shift my power bill *entirely* over to the low tier I could
>save $150 a month.
>
>Now, is it possible for me rig up some sort of cheap battery system
>which charges up overnight and discharges into either the grid or my
>home system during the high periods? Anything that would pay for itself
>in say 2 years and factoring maintenance costs? Or is this a pipe
>dream?
>
>Cheers,
>Glen Low, Pixelglow Software
>www.pixelglow.com
>
| |
| Jim Baber 2005-08-20, 12:21 pm |
|
Norman Webb wrote:
>One option is grid feed where you use wind or solar power to run an inverter
>for your household needs and any excess is fed back into the grid. This
>option is also probably not economic and is more feelgood.
>
>
Jim Baber wrote:
This option of Time Of Use on the grid works quite well for me in
hot central California. Since the 14 of June we have had more than 32
days of temperatures in excess of 100 deg. F. My solar PV system has
been averaging about 58.029 kWh a day over this period, yet my total
requirement for that same 65 day period has been about 73.381 kWh which
meant that I did draw an additional 15.352 kWh from the grid that I
should have had to pay for.
But, because of the Time Of Use metering I am on, and some planning I
actually have come out ahead to the point that I currently have a
-146.30 credit for that same 65 day period instead of owing them money.
This is a lot more than feel good.
[color=darkred]
>glenlow wrote in message
>
>
Jim has a question for Glen here:
Will Western Power give credit like my utility does ar the same
rates that they would charge you for the power you export to their
grid? This is the reason that Time Of Use / Smartpower works so well
for me. In fact, by using my own batteries I would lose that credit I
mentioned before, but I could see an advantage if I used the battery's
accumulated power as a standby for the grid in case the grid goes down.
Currently, my system is grid dependent, and uses the presence of grid
power for synchronization and to prevent islanding (required by the
utility in order to be on the grid)
[color=darkred]
| |
| Solar Flare 2005-08-20, 1:21 pm |
| Why are you wasting power on an electric hot water heater?
"Norman Webb" <tekrec@iinet.net.au> wrote in message
news:4306ac55$0$21043$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au...
> I must be in the next suburb from you and we have a bimonthly bill off
$180
> plus about $30 a quarter for gas.
>
> My question is how many wifes and duaghters do you have?
> Power use is a life style thing.
>
> We have gas stove and gas room heater. Our hot water is solar preheat plus
> 80litre electric HWS. We have evaporative aircon which includes a fan and
> contoller which sucks hot air from the roof cavity into the house in
winter.
> We do cold water clothes washing, don't use a clothes dryer and I wash the
> dishes.
> We have 2 tvs and stereos, 2 computers, radios, and walwarts by the dozen
> etc etc.
>
> For my money gas cooking especially is the way to go cos when the lights
go
> out you can still brew a coffee.
> I also have the title of "Light Nazi" from my diligence in getting people
to
> turn lights off.
>
> The Smart power is only of use for hotwater storage, bore pumps where the
> device is ONLY turned on during the cheap time. Run out of water during
the
> day and you will have to manually fireup the water heater.
>
> I don't thinks batteries would be economic at all.
>
> One option is grid feed where you use wind or solar power to run an
inverter
> for your household needs and any excess is fed back into the grid. This
> option is also probably not economic and is more feelgood.
>
> glenlow@pixelglow.com wrote in message
> <1123847634.254818.115630@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>...
>
>http://www.westernpower.com.au/home...ower/smartpower
> _rates.html
>
>
| |
| John W. Hall 2005-08-20, 3:21 pm |
| On Sat, 20 Aug 2005 12:06:12 -0400, "Solar Flare" <sflare@hotmail.com>
wrote:
>Why are you wasting power on an electric hot water heater?
Why did you post a 72-line message to ask your 1-line question?
--
John W Hall <wweexxsseessssaa@telus.net>
Cochrane, Alberta, Canada.
"Helping People Prosper in the Information Age"
| |
| Solar Flare 2005-08-21, 1:21 am |
| I was lazy and the attachment was original. Why are you top posting?
"John W. Hall" <wweexxsseessssaa@telus.net> wrote in message
news:boreg19ktp4usgg6n3r74aqqfne7g05nua@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 20 Aug 2005 12:06:12 -0400, "Solar Flare" <sflare@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
> Why did you post a 72-line message to ask your 1-line question?
> --
> John W Hall <wweexxsseessssaa@telus.net>
> Cochrane, Alberta, Canada.
> "Helping People Prosper in the Information Age"
| |
| Dave Hinz 2005-08-21, 9:21 am |
| On Sat, 20 Aug 2005 12:06:12 -0400, Solar Flare <sflare@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Why are you wasting power on an electric hot water heater?
I'm not Norman, but you and I have talked about this, here, days ago,
remember? Time of use? Cost per BTU? It's cheaper for me to buy
electricity at night and on weekends; it's cheaper for me to buy propane
during the week. With these cool things called "clocks" (consider
looking into it) you can determine if you're on-peak or off-peak for
costs and control your water heater accordingly.
By the way, it's a "water heater", not a "hot water heater". Why would
ou need to heat the water if it was already hot? Also, top-posting fucks
up the flow of the conversation; please consider not doing that.
| |
| Derek Broughton 2005-08-21, 10:21 am |
| Solar Flare wrote:
> I was lazy and the attachment was original. Why are you top posting?
>
Er, he didn't, and you do. Please stop.
--
derek
| |
| Derek Broughton 2005-08-21, 10:21 am |
| Solar Flare wrote:
> Can you demonstrate cites or references for your claims in Ontario? I and
> all the electrical utilities would lve to see what they are all waiting
> for.
I've made _no_ claims for Ontario. You, however, have twice said that no
smart meters are approved for use in Canada, and I have told you my
neighbor has one in Nova Scotia.
>
> What is the meter type and it's capabilties for Nova Scotia? Tell us more
> about the mass memory download techniques.
Not a clue, and why should I care? (except that it strikes me that I could
get useful monitoring information for my own off-grid system out of one of
these...).
> Are they RF or dial up or direct connect?
Dial up, I believe.
--
derek
| |
| Solar Flare 2005-08-21, 11:21 am |
| Sory. That was in error. It should have read, No Smart Meters are approved
for Ontario by the Canadian Government's Measurement Canada. Ontario wants
to avoid mullions of phone line hookups and go wireless at last proposal.
Probably bidirectional. It may not be Wifi but it will be a very similar
technique of multi-node networking and of course a different frequency
spectrum.
"Derek Broughton" <news@pointerstop.ca> wrote in message
news:ub9mt2-h49.ln1@othello.pointerstop.ca...
> Solar Flare wrote:
>
and[color=darkred]
>
> I've made _no_ claims for Ontario. You, however, have twice said that no
> smart meters are approved for use in Canada, and I have told you my
> neighbor has one in Nova Scotia.
more[color=darkred]
>
> Not a clue, and why should I care? (except that it strikes me that I could
> get useful monitoring information for my own off-grid system out of one of
> these...).
>
>
> Dial up, I believe.
> --
> derek
| |
| Solar Flare 2005-08-21, 11:21 am |
| Please stop trolling
"Derek Broughton" <news@pointerstop.ca> wrote in message
news:of9mt2-459.ln1@othello.pointerstop.ca...
> Solar Flare wrote:
>
> Er, he didn't, and you do. Please stop.
>
> --
> derek
| |
| Solar Flare 2005-08-21, 11:21 am |
| Please stop trolling. The top posting issue is a dead one.
"Dave Hinz" <DaveHinz@spamcop.net> wrote in message
news:3mr8msF180fo3U2@individual.net...
> On Sat, 20 Aug 2005 12:06:12 -0400, Solar Flare <sflare@hotmail.com>
wrote:
>
> I'm not Norman, but you and I have talked about this, here, days ago,
> remember? Time of use? Cost per BTU? It's cheaper for me to buy
> electricity at night and on weekends; it's cheaper for me to buy propane
> during the week. With these cool things called "clocks" (consider
> looking into it) you can determine if you're on-peak or off-peak for
> costs and control your water heater accordingly.
>
> By the way, it's a "water heater", not a "hot water heater". Why would
> ou need to heat the water if it was already hot? Also, top-posting fucks
> up the flow of the conversation; please consider not doing that.
>
| |
|
| In article <XL0Oe.6935$PM3.431@twister.nyroc.rr.com>,
"daestrom" <daestrom@NO_SPAM_HEREtwcny.rr.com> wrote:
> Gotta laugh!! We 'yanks' are often criticised for lumping the whole world
> together when we talk about 'everywhere' when we really mean just the
> states. So here's a Canadian that makes the mistake of lumping all of
> 'Canada' into Ontario. Nice to see we 'yanks' aren't the only ones that
> sometimes slip up :-)
>
> daestrom
Good thing no Frenchie from Quebec saw that, or they would be advocating
Civil War.... Again.......
Me
| |
| Solar Flare 2005-08-21, 4:21 pm |
| LOL
ooops. Yeah they don't even abide by the Federal Laws of Canada. Just a
bunch of rebels those Northerners...LOL
"Me" <Me@shadow.orgs> wrote in message
news:Me-9E9EE2.10261221082005@netnews.worldnet.att.net...
> In article <XL0Oe.6935$PM3.431@twister.nyroc.rr.com>,
> "daestrom" <daestrom@NO_SPAM_HEREtwcny.rr.com> wrote:
>
world[color=darkred]
>
> Good thing no Frenchie from Quebec saw that, or they would be advocating
> Civil War.... Again.......
>
> Me
| |
| Dave Hinz 2005-08-22, 1:21 pm |
| On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 09:50:15 -0400, Solar Flare <sflare@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Please stop trolling. The top posting issue is a dead one.
It's about to be, as you seem to be being plonked by people left and
right here. So what about the cost/BTU issue that you ignored?
Here it is, in the wrong freaking order because you top--posted:
[color=darkred]
| |
| Solar Flare 2005-08-22, 9:21 pm |
| I thought you ignored me?
Would you like to post on energy or just troll and whine about not getting
your way?
"Dave Hinz" <DaveHinz@spamcop.net> wrote in message
news:3muc3dF18mh5kU3@individual.net...
> On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 09:50:15 -0400, Solar Flare <sflare@hotmail.com>
wrote:[color=darkred]
>
> It's about to be, as you seem to be being plonked by people left and
> right here. So what about the cost/BTU issue that you ignored?
> Here it is, in the wrong freaking order because you top--posted:
>
propane[color=darkred]
| |
| Eat at Sloppy Joes 2005-08-23, 11:21 am |
| Don't forget to add in the service charges.
Depending on your usage you are really spending between $0.12 to $0.14 per
kWhr
My last bill had $60 in energy and $80 in service charges.
"Ford Prefect" <paintmeblue@pagan.org> wrote in message
news:vO5Me.6100$7R.259772@news20.bellglobal.com...
>
>
> Dave Hinz wrote:
>
wrote:[color=darkred]
>
> Our electricity system in Ontario, Canada has been going through the
> motions of going from a public to private system, but due to pressure
> from the public it has been stalled. While they were working on this
> they set up a separate entity to monitor and sell power. They had a web
> site that charted demand and cost during the day that showed a huge
> change in cost during peak periods. Based on the figures I saw there I
> was going to end up paying more to have metered power than the current
> two tiered flat rate for residential we have now. Maybe it's different
> in your case, but not in mine. Currently I'm paying .5-5.8 cents
> kilowatt hour, using the smart meter I will pay:
>
>
> 7 am to 11 am- 6.4 ¢/kWh
>
> 11 am to 5 pm-9.3 ¢/kWh
>
> 5 pm to 10 pm-6.4 ¢/kWh
>
> 10 pm to 7 am 2.9 ¢/kWh
>
> This works out to an average of 6.25 cent per kilowatt
| |
| Eat at Sloppy Joes 2005-08-23, 11:21 am |
| Smart meters exist for large industrial users on time of use and demand
billing
"Solar Flare" <sflare@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:nbidnf07AOyNZp7eRVn-3Q@golden.net...
> Bullshit. State the model in use! RIM has the contract (or will have) to
> install the radios but the specs aren't decided.
>
> The model has not been chosen or approved for usage by the IESO. The rest
> are only mass memory meters, usually with phone lines and Sticks for
> interrogation, and not the smart meters. The "Smart Meter" doesn't exist
in
> Ontario yet.
>
>
> <nospam.clare.nce@sny.der.on.ca> wrote in message
> news:l5p7g1tvvr2grva4op62mdv6tprlv76j2f@4ax.com...
> decided
> and
> Canada
6.25[color=darkred]
>
>
| |
| Jim Baber 2005-08-23, 3:21 pm |
| Dave Hinz wrote
>
Only if you use exactly the same number of kWh in EACH time frame!! For
example:
# <>7 - 11 using 5 kWh Total = $0.32
11 - 5 using 5 kWh Total = $0.45
5 - 10 using 5 kWh Total = $0.32
11 - 5 using 5 kWh Total = $0.145
20kWh $1.235
or an average of $1.235 / 20 = $0.06175 restated as 6.175 cents per kWh.
# Or, more correctly calculated as
<>7 - 11 using 15 kWh Total = $0.96 Cooked breakfast - chilled
house
11 - 5 using 35 kWh Total = $3.255 Washed the dishes, took shower,
Got hot and the AC turned on
5 - 10 using 10 kWh Total = $0.64 Fixed dinner and watched TV
11 - 5 using 2 kWh Total = $0.058 In bed, some AC until 12 AM
62 kWh $4.913
or a average of $4.913 / 20 = $0.06175 restated as 7.924 cents
<>(rounded) per kWh.
Which is what would really happen when the number of kWh in a period are
realistic.
| |
| Derek Broughton 2005-08-23, 4:21 pm |
| Jim Baber wrote:
> Dave Hinz wrote
>
> Only if you use exactly the same number of kWh in EACH time frame!! For
> example:
Dave didn't write that, Jim, and the poster who did write it was simply
quoting from Ontario Hydro's website. It _is_ a pretty strange way to
calculate an average!
> # Or, more correctly calculated as
> <>7 - 11 using 15 kWh Total = $0.96 Cooked breakfast - chilled
> house
> 11 - 5 using 35 kWh Total = $3.255 Washed the dishes, took shower,
> Got hot and the AC turned on
I can only suggest that you should be taking your showers earlier in the
day :-)
> 5 - 10 using 10 kWh Total = $0.64 Fixed dinner and watched TV
> 11 - 5 using 2 kWh Total = $0.058 In bed, some AC until 12 AM
> 62 kWh $4.913
> or a average of $4.913 / 20 = $0.06175 restated as 7.924 cents
> <>(rounded) per kWh.
$4.913/20 = $0.25, so where you get $0.06175 (or the 20 if it comes to
that), I don't know, but the 7.924 is correct.
--
derek
| |
| Jim Baber 2005-08-23, 6:21 pm |
|
Jim's correction per what
Derek Broughton wrote:
>Jim Baber wrote:
>
>Dave didn't write that, Jim, and the poster who did write it was simply
>quoting from Ontario Hydro's website. It _is_ a pretty strange way to
>calculate an average!
>
>
Flat out INCORRECT!
>I can only suggest that you should be taking your showers earlier in the
>day :-)
>
or a average of $4.913 / 62 = $0.07924 restated as 7.924 cents
(rounded) per kWh.
[color=darkred]
> <>$4.913/20 = $0.25, so where you get $0.06175 (or the 20 if it comesto
> that), I don't know, but the 7.924 is correct.
From that ol debil keybored! and they now stand corrwected: Sorry Jim
| |
| Derek Broughton 2005-08-23, 7:21 pm |
| Jim Baber wrote:
>
> Jim's correction per what
> Derek Broughton wrote:
>
> From that ol debil keybored! and they now stand corrwected: Sorry Jim
LOL. I figured since you got the right answer, you _did_ know what you were
doing :-)
--
derek
| |
| Solar Flare 2005-08-23, 8:21 pm |
| In Ontario the TOU, mass memory, interrogable, meters exist and have for
years. However the Interpretation of Rates has never approved their usage on
small customers.
"Eat at Sloppy Joes" <mikeNOSPAMster.d2@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:ReidnYYxRLOvuJbeRVn-1g@golden.net...
> Smart meters exist for large industrial users on time of use and demand
> billing
>
>
> "Solar Flare" <sflare@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:nbidnf07AOyNZp7eRVn-3Q@golden.net...
to[color=darkred]
rest[color=darkred]
> in
on[color=darkred]
charge[color=darkred]
by[color=darkred]
> 6.25
>
>
| |
| Don Kelly 2005-08-24, 12:21 am |
| "Jim Baber" <jim@baber.org> wrote in message
news:_4ydnZjhxbTmwZbeRVn-3Q@comcast.com...
Dave Hinz wrote
>
Only if you use exactly the same number of kWh in EACH time frame!! For
example:
# <>7 - 11 using 5 kWh Total = $0.32
11 - 5 using 5 kWh Total = $0.45
5 - 10 using 5 kWh Total = $0.32
11 - 5 using 5 kWh Total = $0.145
20kWh $1.235
or an average of $1.235 / 20 = $0.06175 restated as 6.175 cents per kWh.
# Or, more correctly calculated as
<>7 - 11 using 15 kWh Total = $0.96 Cooked breakfast - chilled
house
11 - 5 using 35 kWh Total = $3.255 Washed the dishes, took shower,
Got hot and the AC turned on
5 - 10 using 10 kWh Total = $0.64 Fixed dinner and watched TV
11 - 5 using 2 kWh Total = $0.058 In bed, some AC until 12 AM
62 kWh $4.913
or a average of $4.913 / 20 = $0.06175 restated as 7.924 cents
<>(rounded) per kWh.
Which is what would really happen when the number of kWh in a period are
realistic.
---------
If you want "smart power" to work for you, the above scenario is not a good
example. Divert as much as possible of your heavy loads to off peak times.
The scenario works out costs correctly but is one which assumes old habits
of use and these have to be modified to save money, rather than give the
utility more money.
Your dishwasher can be set to run at night, and some precooling before 5AM
(or a higher setting on the AC) might cut costs. Hot water heating
preferrably between 11 and 5 etc.
--
Don Kelly @shawcross.ca
remove the X to answer
----------------------------
| |
| tony.clark@arach.net.au 2005-08-24, 9:21 am |
| Glen,
I have been on smart power for the past 5 years (next month is the
anniversary).
We have an electrically heated water bed, solar Hot Water and a
swimming pool with pumps, filters, etc. Cooking is by gas and home
heating is done with firewood.
We have time clocks on all heating loads, and only heat during off
peak. Some minor energy saving innovations were also applied to
maximise the energy savings.
We also have a 1500W peak solar power system which contributes to the
energy savings, particularly during Summer.
Although I do not have the previous years' consumption, the ratio of
energy consumption for the 4 energy rates, over 5 years, are:
High Shoulder 11.4% - Weekdays
Low Shoulder 11.0% - All Weekend (except Off Peak)
.. Off Peak 65.2% - Off Peak
. . Peak 12.4% - Peak (Weekdays)
The solar power exported during this time was approximately half of
each rate other than off peak. This does not affect the %ages
imported, but there was a contribution from the solar to the power
used, which was consumed in addition to the imported power.
I hope that this is of help in making your decision.
If I have confused you, please call me. I live near Armadale WA.
regards,
Tony Clark
0428 920 881
glenlow@pixelglow.com wrote:
> Hi All
>
> I'm from Perth (Down Under in Australia to you North Hemisphere folk)
> and my home power bill usually gets pretty bad, like $300/month. We are
> currently on our power utility (monopoly)'s flat rate of 13.94 c/kWh,
> and I'm thinking of switching to their tiered rate "SmartPower" which
> goes as low as 6.56 c/kWh from 9pm to 7am. However SmartPower has a
> little sting in that some time periods go as high as 20.22 c/kWh
> (11am-5pm summers, 7-11am and 5-9pm winters).
>
> http://www.westernpower.com.au/home...ower_rates.html
>
> So if I shift my power bill *entirely* over to the low tier I could
> save $150 a month.
>
> Now, is it possible for me rig up some sort of cheap battery system
> which charges up overnight and discharges into either the grid or my
> home system during the high periods? Anything that would pay for itself
> in say 2 years and factoring maintenance costs? Or is this a pipe
> dream?
>
> Cheers,
> Glen Low, Pixelglow Software
> www.pixelglow.com
| |
| Solar Flare 2005-08-24, 8:21 pm |
| I am going to salvage a surplus 48V battery charger from work to charge my
48v bank after midnite every night at 2.9 cents and then ***ALL*** my PV
power can go into the peak rate backfeed at 9.3 cents..
"Don Kelly" <dhky@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:JYQOe.300224$s54.245878@pd7tw2no...
> "Jim Baber" <jim@baber.org> wrote in message
> news:_4ydnZjhxbTmwZbeRVn-3Q@comcast.com...
> Dave Hinz wrote
>
> Only if you use exactly the same number of kWh in EACH time frame!! For
> example:
> # <>7 - 11 using 5 kWh Total = $0.32
> 11 - 5 using 5 kWh Total = $0.45
> 5 - 10 using 5 kWh Total = $0.32
> 11 - 5 using 5 kWh Total = $0.145
> 20kWh $1.235
> or an average of $1.235 / 20 = $0.06175 restated as 6.175 cents per
kWh.
> # Or, more correctly calculated as
> <>7 - 11 using 15 kWh Total = $0.96 Cooked breakfast - chilled
> house
> 11 - 5 using 35 kWh Total = $3.255 Washed the dishes, took shower,
> Got hot and the AC turned on
> 5 - 10 using 10 kWh Total = $0.64 Fixed dinner and watched TV
> 11 - 5 using 2 kWh Total = $0.058 In bed, some AC until 12 AM
> 62 kWh $4.913
> or a average of $4.913 / 20 = $0.06175 restated as 7.924 cents
> <>(rounded) per kWh.
> Which is what would really happen when the number of kWh in a period are
> realistic.
> ---------
> If you want "smart power" to work for you, the above scenario is not a
good
> example. Divert as much as possible of your heavy loads to off peak times.
> The scenario works out costs correctly but is one which assumes old habits
> of use and these have to be modified to save money, rather than give the
> utility more money.
> Your dishwasher can be set to run at night, and some precooling before 5AM
> (or a higher setting on the AC) might cut costs. Hot water heating
> preferrably between 11 and 5 etc.
>
> --
>
> Don Kelly @shawcross.ca
> remove the X to answer
> ----------------------------
>
>
|
|
|
|
|