Alternative Power sources - Portable Solar Power

Author

Portable Solar Power

Joe

2005-08-28, 1:21 pm

I'm looking for a system to use during hurricane-induced power outages,
something to keep the frig, TV, fans and a few lights working. A 1500W
system like this:
http://www.solarsense.com/Products/...NOMAD_1500.html
should work nicely. (Unfortunately, this particular company is going
through an acquisition right now.)
Anyway, the setup looks simple. I could bring the panels inside during
the storm and be back in business the next morning. I would also want to
use the battery frequently to power my computers just to cut down on the
electric bill.
Does anyone know of any other systems like the one above at comparable
price?

SQLit

2005-08-28, 2:21 pm

"Joe" <jNOSPAMwilk@mpinet.net> wrote in message
news:cLkQe.3285$_84.2772@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> I'm looking for a system to use during hurricane-induced power outages,
> something to keep the frig, TV, fans and a few lights working. A 1500W
> system like this:
>
http://www.solarsense.com/Products/...NOMAD_1500.html
> should work nicely. (Unfortunately, this particular company is going
> through an acquisition right now.)
> Anyway, the setup looks simple. I could bring the panels inside during
> the storm and be back in business the next morning. I would also want to
> use the battery frequently to power my computers just to cut down on the
> electric bill.
> Does anyone know of any other systems like the one above at comparable
> price?

Check Costco and Harbor Freight, both have systems for sale.

Remember the systems are RATED for 1500 watts, performance is usually less
and in your situation considerably less. Panels would need to be pointed
at the sun at the optimal angle all of the time ( they would have to move )
to get anywhere near rated performance.

A generator is easier to deal with. I commend your solar thoughts.

Vaughn

2005-08-28, 2:21 pm

"Joe" <jNOSPAMwilk@mpinet.net> wrote in message
news:cLkQe.3285$_84.2772@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> I'm looking for a system to use during hurricane-induced power outages,
> something to keep the frig, TV, fans and a few lights working. A 1500W system
> like this:
> http://www.solarsense.com/Products/...NOMAD_1500.html
> should work nicely. (Unfortunately, this particular company is going through
> an acquisition right now.)
> Anyway, the setup looks simple. I could bring the panels inside during the
> storm and be back in business the next morning. I would also want to use the
> battery frequently to power my computers just to cut down on the electric
> bill.
> Does anyone know of any other systems like the one above at comparable price?

That system simply won't do what you are imagining it can do. The PV
panels are only 42 watts maximum and you are only allowed three for a maximum of
126 watts in perfect full-sun conditions. A really good day might have 10 hours
of effective full sun. The days following a hurricane are unlikely to be
full-sun days. Your refrigerator probably takes an average of about 200watts.
I will leave the math to you. You will find that before the first day is over,
you will be dealing with a dead battery. Additionally, that 60 Ah battery will
not run your 'fridge overnight.

I suggest that you take a look at 2000 watt inverter generators such as the
Honda EU-2000. They are immensly quiet and efficient compared to the stuff they
sell at Home Depot, but (like solar systems) they are not cheap.

Vaughn

>

Robert Morein

2005-08-28, 3:22 pm

nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu

2005-08-28, 3:22 pm

Vaughn <vaughnsimonHATESSPAM@att.fake.net> wrote:

>Your refrigerator probably takes an average of about 200watts.

Rather high, compared to the 4 watt Mt. Best chest fridge conversion.

If Frigidaire's FFC15C8CW 14.8 ft^3 chest freezer ($347 at Lowes) uses
397 kWh/year at 7 F in a 70 F room, it might use 397(70-36)/(70-7)
= 214 at 36 F, ie 0.59 kWh per day, or an average of 24 watts.

Are there more efficient chest freezers at a reasonable price?

Nick

Vaughn

2005-08-28, 4:21 pm

<nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu> wrote in message
news:destu6$85u@acadia.ece.villanova.edu...
> Vaughn <vaughnsimonHATESSPAM@att.fake.net> wrote:
>
>
> Rather high, compared to the 4 watt Mt. Best chest fridge conversion.

Perhaps so, but the OP didn't say anything about having a chest fridge
conversion. My fridge takes about 180 watts and runs A LOT. A refrigerator
will especially run continuously for (perhaps) several hours after being hooked
up following the aftermath of a hurricane. (You usually don't do much until the
winds stop blowing and you usually lose power fairly early in the storm).

If I had an off-grid cabin somewhere out in the woods, I would certainly
look into the freezer chest fridge conversion.

Vaughn

me@privacy.net

2005-08-28, 5:21 pm

"Robert Morein" <nowhere@nowhere.com> wrote:

>As the others say, this is extremely undersized with respect to your task.
>WRT the Honda generators, Yamaha has a better rep.
>The EF1000is would suit your needs:
>http://www.yamaha-motor.com/outdoor...442/0/home.aspx

The generators would be nice for emer use only

But he wanted to also use them daily to power his PCs

Wouldn't the generator not be a good fit for daily use?

Robert Morein

2005-08-28, 5:21 pm

<me@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:b944h1h4str8a3l3ln7tv5cllujt5p1oej@4ax.com...
> "Robert Morein" <nowhere@nowhere.com> wrote:
>
task.[color=darkred]
>
> The generators would be nice for emer use only
>
> But he wanted to also use them daily to power his PCs
>
> Wouldn't the generator not be a good fit for daily use?

You're right. My reply was incomplete.
We should add that he isn't going to save enough money on his electrical
bills by powering his computers from solar to justify t he cost of a solar
installation. Nor would the system he contemplates have the capacity to run
a desktop continuously.

One of the things I've learned from this group is that solar power is
justifiable primarily out of necessity, or when tax breaks make it
artificially viable.

JoeSixPack

2005-08-28, 8:21 pm

"Vaughn" <vaughnsimonHATESSPAM@att.fake.net> wrote in message
news:8WlQe.690447$cg1.289780@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>
> "Joe" <jNOSPAMwilk@mpinet.net> wrote in message
> news:cLkQe.3285$_84.2772@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
>
> That system simply won't do what you are imagining it can do. The PV
> panels are only 42 watts maximum and you are only allowed three for a
> maximum of 126 watts in perfect full-sun conditions. A really good day
> might have 10 hours of effective full sun. The days following a hurricane
> are unlikely to be full-sun days. Your refrigerator probably takes an
> average of about 200watts. I will leave the math to you. You will find
> that before the first day is over, you will be dealing with a dead
> battery. Additionally, that 60 Ah battery will not run your 'fridge
> overnight.
>
> I suggest that you take a look at 2000 watt inverter generators such
> as the Honda EU-2000. They are immensly quiet and efficient compared to
> the stuff they sell at Home Depot, but (like solar systems) they are not
> cheap.
>
> Vaughn

I have to echo Vaughn. You need to work out your energy budget before you
build a PV system. It's just no good to put it together and hope for the
best. The economics of solar power is dubious at best, even when you
severely cut your electricity consumption by using propane refrigeration and
heating, fluorescent lighting, timers, and low-power electronics.

A modest $5000 investment would take many years to recoup, even with a
dramatic change to your electrical lifestyle. Building a PV system just for
hurricanes, big enough to deliver your typical level of power usage, would
cost many times that, and would take forever to recoup. A generator makes
vastly more sense for such a purpose.

JoeSixPack

2005-08-28, 8:21 pm

<me@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:b944h1h4str8a3l3ln7tv5cllujt5p1oej@4ax.com...
> "Robert Morein" <nowhere@nowhere.com> wrote:
>
>
> The generators would be nice for emer use only
>
> But he wanted to also use them daily to power his PCs
>
> Wouldn't the generator not be a good fit for daily use?

Let's do some math. A good generator might last you 5,000 hours at best.
That's about 7 months. If the generator cost $2000, that translates to
$3428/yr. Fuel consumption is about one liter per kilowatt hour. Gasoline
is currently approaching $0.90/L.

The average home uses about 600 kWh per month, or 7200 kWh per year. The
fuel alone would cost over $5000 a year, plus the generator replacement cost
of $3400 = $8400 per year. This equates to $1.16 per kWh, which is well
over 10X the average rate for grid power in most areas of the country.

My figures are very ballpark, but no amount of figuring could make a
generator economical enough to use on a constant basis.

nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu

2005-08-28, 9:21 pm

JoeSixPack <olegp@telus.net> wrote:

>Let's do some math. A good generator might last you 5,000 hours at best.

About 12K hours, for a $900 1800 W Honda.

>The average home uses about 600 kWh per month, or 7200 kWh per year.

The average is closer to 10K kWh/year.

>This equates to $1.16 per kWh, which is well over 10X the average rate
>for grid power in most areas of the country.

Try including the useful heat output, about 4X the electrical output.

Nick

JoeSixPack

2005-08-28, 9:21 pm

<nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu> wrote in message
news:detin9$8g0@acadia.ece.villanova.edu...
> JoeSixPack <olegp@telus.net> wrote:
>
>
> About 12K hours, for a $900 1800 W Honda.
>
>
> The average is closer to 10K kWh/year.
>
>
> Try including the useful heat output, about 4X the electrical output.
>
> Nick
>

So how do you manage that? Duct the heat from the engine into the house?
Only on cold days? Like the smell of exhaust?

The numbers can vary a lot, but never enough to disprove my point that a
generator is far too uneconomical to run on a continuous basis in most
cases. Nice try. If you live in Antarctica, I may retract my argument.

me@privacy.net

2005-08-28, 10:21 pm

"Robert Morein" <nowhere@nowhere.com> wrote:

>
>You're right. My reply was incomplete.
>We should add that he isn't going to save enough money on his electrical
>bills by powering his computers from solar to justify t he cost of a solar
>installation. Nor would the system he contemplates have the capacity to run
>a desktop continuously.

Ah yes..... good point

nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu

2005-08-29, 8:21 am

JoeSixPack <olegp@telus.net> wrote:

Well? You wanted to "do some math" :-)
[color=darkred]
>So how do you manage that? Duct the heat from the engine into the house?

Put it in a poly film room in the basement, depressurized by its exhaust.

>Only on cold days? Like the smell of exhaust?

Yes. No. Intelligen's Lister-Petter 11 HP cogen system lived in US basements
and started up with a room temp thermostat and ran till the house was warm,
meanwhile pushing the meter backwards at 5 kW, with a 93% CHP efficiency.

>The numbers can vary a lot, but never enough to disprove my point that a
>generator is far too uneconomical to run on a continuous basis in most cases.

I disagree. Cogen was widespread in the 1930s. Try the numbers, if you like.

Nick

nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu

2005-08-29, 6:21 pm

Vaughn <vaughnsimonHATESSPAM@att.fake.net> wrote:

>Your refrigerator probably takes an average of about 200watts.

Rather high, compared to the 4 watt Mt. Best chest fridge conversion.

US freezers at tested at 0 F in a 90 F room, a hot room, to make up for
no door openings during the test. The yellow DOE Energy Guide label on
Whirlpool's EH151 14.8 ft^3 $369 chest freezer says it uses 354 kWh/year
that way, so it might use 354(70-36)/(90-0) = 134 at 36 F, ie 0.37 kWh
per day, or an average of 15.3 watts. The A419ABC-1C digital thermostat
from Johnson Controls ($62 as part number L38716 from Jonestone Supply,
with a remote thermistor) uses 1.8 VA max and might turn on the freezer
when the box temp rises to 36 F.

If this is like Frigidaire's FFC1524 48"x29.5"x35" high chest freezer,
with cold coils inside the left 29.5"x35" side and hot coils under the
skin of the 48"x35" back, we might add a foamboard partition parallel
to the left side to make a small freezer compartment and more foamboard
over the top and around the 3 cold sides and let the new stat turn on
a small fan to circulate air between the freezer and fridge compartments
when the fridge temp rises to 36 F. We might somehow store ice in the
freezer compartment and use it (vs batteries) to keep the fridge cold
overnight. Each pound of ice could keep it cold for about 3 hours.

Nick

me@privacy.net

2005-08-29, 7:21 pm

nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu wrote:

>Rather high, compared to the 4 watt Mt. Best chest fridge conversion.

The chest fridge conversion really interest me and is
something I will try once I build my own cabin.

Has anyone else tried it? Had success with it?

nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu

2005-08-29, 7:21 pm

<me@privacy.net> wrote:

>
>The chest fridge conversion really interest me and is
>something I will try once I build my own cabin.

Good...

>Has anyone else tried it? Had success with it?

The Mt. Best version seems to work well, altho it would be nice to have
a small freezer compartment, with some ice cream and ice cubes and ice
vs battery coolth storage. Looks like the best we can do with standard
US components is about 18 watts average for a $400 machine, vs 60 for
the best available fridge, which costs more, with more features and less
floorspace. A 24h(60-18) = 1 kWh/day saving might be worth 250Wx$8=$2K
in an off-grid PV home...

Nick

Joe

2005-08-29, 8:21 pm

Well, I certainly got in over my head on that post :-)
Thanks for all the great responses. Looks like I need to hit the library
for a few weekends before making any major purchases.

Joe wrote:
> I'm looking for a system to use during hurricane-induced power outages,
> something to keep the frig, TV, fans and a few lights working. A 1500W
> system like this:
> http://www.solarsense.com/Products/...NOMAD_1500.html
>
> should work nicely. (Unfortunately, this particular company is going
> through an acquisition right now.)
> Anyway, the setup looks simple. I could bring the panels inside during
> the storm and be back in business the next morning. I would also want to
> use the battery frequently to power my computers just to cut down on the
> electric bill.
> Does anyone know of any other systems like the one above at comparable
> price?
>

wmbjk

2005-08-29, 9:21 pm

On 29 Aug 2005 18:08:21 -0400, nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu wrote:

><me@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>
>Good...
>
>
>The Mt. Best version seems to work well,

Custom-built fridges using Danfoss compressors and lots of insulation
but with few features http://www.novakool.com/articles/boxplan.htm
seem to use about double the energy of the Mt. Best conversion. So do
the Sunfrost models...

> altho it would be nice to have
>a small freezer compartment, with some ice cream and ice cubes and ice
>vs battery coolth storage. Looks like the best we can do with standard
>US components is about 18 watts average for a $400 machine, vs 60 for
>the best available fridge,

1.44 kWhrs per day? There seem to be quite a few here
http://www.aceee.org/consumerguide/...8cubic_feet.pdf that
are ~30% more bester.

> which costs more, with more features and less
>floorspace. A 24h(60-18) = 1 kWh/day saving might be worth 250Wx$8=$2K
>in an off-grid PV home...

If we're talking about a 15cu.ft. chest freezer with some space wasted
for practical access, then a fair comparison might be an Avanti
1151wt-1 for $350 with an average consumption of 36Watts.
http://avantiproducts.com/fridge/apt.html
http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/edca...autodef_eff.htm
If you can do a conversion that uses a kWhr per day less than that
one, then opportunity is knocking. :-)

Wayne

Solar Flare

2005-08-29, 10:21 pm

Not a very good comparison between a 11.4 cu foot refrigerator and a 15 cu
foot chest freezer.

You seem very confused most of the time. Did you get you links or model
confused?

"wmbjk" <wmbjkREMOVE@citlink.net> wrote in message
news:k067h11e894ds5gi80etbor5oqj46sb8m8@4ax.com...
> On 29 Aug 2005 18:08:21 -0400, nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu wrote:
>
> If we're talking about a 15cu.ft. chest freezer with some space wasted
> for practical access, then a fair comparison might be an Avanti
> 1151wt-1 for $350 with an average consumption of 36Watts.
> http://avantiproducts.com/fridge/apt.html
>
http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/edca...autodef_eff.htm
> If you can do a conversion that uses a kWhr per day less than that
> one, then opportunity is knocking. :-)
>
> Wayne

JoeSixPack

2005-08-30, 2:21 am

<nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu> wrote in message
news:deuo8m$8kf@acadia.ece.villanova.edu...
> JoeSixPack <olegp@telus.net> wrote:
>
> I disagree. Cogen was widespread in the 1930s. Try the numbers, if you
> like.

Yeah, before there was a grid. That was also a time when you had maybe 2 or
3 appliances that you used infrequently. When the grid became available, it
was almost a total conversion, practically overnight because of cost
advantages.

By the way, it wasn't co-gen. In those days, there was no way to synchronize
different generators, so every little town and farm had their own generator.

Scott Willing

2005-08-30, 1:21 pm

On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 04:58:03 GMT, "JoeSixPack" <olegp@telus.net>
wrote:

>
><nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu> wrote in message
>news:deuo8m$8kf@acadia.ece.villanova.edu...
>
>Yeah, before there was a grid. That was also a time when you had maybe 2 or
>3 appliances that you used infrequently. When the grid became available, it
>was almost a total conversion, practically overnight because of cost
>advantages.
>
>By the way, it wasn't co-gen. In those days, there was no way to synchronize
>different generators, so every little town and farm had their own generator.

The commonly accepted meaning of "co-gen" is getting a twofer, such as
heat+electrical energy.

-=s

wmbjk

2005-08-30, 1:21 pm

On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 20:38:33 -0400, "Solar Flare" <sflare@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>"wmbjk" <wmbjkREMOVE@citlink.net> wrote in message
>news:k067h11e894ds5gi80etbor5oqj46sb8m8@4ax.com...
>http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/edca...autodef_eff.htm
[color=darkred]
>Not a very good comparison between a 11.4 cu foot refrigerator and a 15 cu
>foot chest freezer.

A chest freezer used as a fridge is likely to have wasted space to
make lower tier contents more easily accessible. Imagine an empty
space allowing top and mid-level baskets to slide so that lower items
can be seen and removed. The size of the space would depend on the
owner's tolerance for inconvenience, but it might be a foot wide, 2/3
the height of the box, and full depth. About 4 cu.ft.

>You seem very confused most of the time.

That's quite a statement coming from someone who works so hard to
confuse the rest of us. You're posting from Canada, but claim to be
building a home in Michigan. In your previous incarnations of Gymmy
Bob and John Bengi, you claimed to have killfiled many of us, yet are
still magically able to respond to our posts. Perhaps you should list
all the identities you're using at present, and explain why you use
multiple ISPs, why you keep changing your name, and why you use
multiple identities in the same thread.

Wayne

nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu

2005-08-30, 2:21 pm

wmbjk <wmbjkREMOVE@citlink.net> wrote:

>
>Custom-built fridges using Danfoss compressors and lots of insulation
>but with few features http://www.novakool.com/articles/boxplan.htm
>seem to use about double the energy of the Mt. Best conversion. So do
>the Sunfrost models...

They may have different capacities from Mt. Best, and measure the energy
consumption at different room and fridge temps. It's 90 F and 0 F in the
US. What did Dr. Chalko use at Mt. Best?

>
>1.44 kWhrs per day?

No... 24x18 = 432 Wh/day.

>There seem to be quite a few here
http://www.aceee.org/consumerguide/...8cubic_feet.pdf that
>are ~30% more bester.

The 4 best 15 ft^3 versions on that site all used exactly 454 kWh/year.
How odd. Maybe Amana, Danby, Maytag and Whilpool are all the same chest
fridge. Or maybe they all wanted to meet the min DOE standard. For
conversion purposes, we might only look at the prices, or whether they
all have a cold left wall and a warm back wall.

[color=darkred]
>If you can do a conversion that uses a kWhr per day less than that
>one, then opportunity is knocking. :-)

I don't need another fridge, but I'd like to see someone do this in the US
and report on results in an HP story. It seems to me we can do better than
Mt. Best, with a small freezer compartment and extra foamboard over some of
the sides and (possibly) overnight ice storage vs more batteries.

Nick

wmbjk

2005-08-30, 5:21 pm

On 30 Aug 2005 10:11:50 -0400, nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu wrote:

>wmbjk <wmbjkREMOVE@citlink.net> wrote:
>
>
>They may have different capacities from Mt. Best, and measure the energy
>consumption at different room and fridge temps.

The 4.5 cu.ft. (half the size of the Mt. Best conversion) custom-built
chest version (fridge only, manual defrost) with R43 insulation, used
180 Whrs per day at 70F. The closest comparable commercially available
model is the expensive Sunfrost R4 upright, 3.91 cu.ft., with a rated
energy consumption of 100 Whrs per day at 70F.
http://www.sunfrost.com/refrigerator_specs.html After comparing those
two, we might accept that the Sunfrost numbers are about as low as are
likely.

> It's 90 F and 0 F in the
>US. What did Dr. Chalko use at Mt. Best?

Between 59 and 70F. Given that at 70F the Sunfrost R4 and the
custom-built Novacool chest fridge both use substantially more energy
per cu.ft. than the Mt. Best conversion, I'm guessing it's 59F at Mt.
Best much more often than it's 70. ;-)

Someone posted here recently about fridge tests at 70F with very many
door openings per day. I can't find the reference now, but perhaps
testing methods have changed in recent years.

>
>
>No... 24x18 = 432 Wh/day.

I was referring to the fridge spec. You wrote that the best available
fridge averaged 60 Watts. That's 1.44 kWhrs per day. My own 8 year-old
22 cu.ft. model is rated 1.2 kWhrs per day, an average of 50 Watts for
a 50% larger unit.

>http://www.aceee.org/consumerguide/...8cubic_feet.pdf that
>
>The 4 best 15 ft^3 versions on that site all used exactly 454 kWh/year.

I count 15 models of combination fridge/freezers that are between 14.8
and 15.5 cu.ft., and use between 376 and 386 kWhrs per year. Ah, but
now I see what you're looking at tho... 15 cu.ft. *freezers* that are
*3*54 kWhrs per year.

>How odd. Maybe Amana, Danby, Maytag and Whilpool are all the same chest
>fridge. Or maybe they all wanted to meet the min DOE standard. For
>conversion purposes, we might only look at the prices, or whether they
>all have a cold left wall and a warm back wall.
>
>
>
>I don't need another fridge, but I'd like to see someone do this in the US
>and report on results in an HP story.

Me too. And since you may be the perfect guy to do it, consider
yourself nominated. ;-) Perhaps someone who needs a fridge would
loan a chest freezer for you to convert. Spense, if you're reading,
can you find someone who'll loan the freezer in exchange for a good
ESSN article?

> It seems to me we can do better than
>Mt. Best, with a small freezer compartment and extra foamboard over some of
>the sides and (possibly) overnight ice storage vs more batteries.

Sunfrost emphasizes efficiency over price, and their thick-walled RF
16 is rated at 700 Whrs per day at 90F (which IMO is the only
temperature that should be used when comparing to normally-rated
models, unless there's a specified number of door openings). Even
accounting for the top door, I'd expect a conversion's consumption to
be higher than Sun Frost's per cu.ft. But if you could even get close
to their numbers while using a cheap freezer, that would be a
worthwhile accomplishment, and an article describing it would be a
real service to off-gridders.

Wayne

me@privacy.net

2005-08-30, 7:21 pm

wmbjk <wmbjkREMOVE@citlink.net> wrote:
[color=darkred]

I like the chest config cause like most people I open
up the upright fridge and stand there an look forever!
Ha!

I'm sure that's not energy efficient as hell. <G>

With chest fridge I could pop open that top and look
quite awhile with cold air spilling out. Yes?

nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu

2005-08-30, 7:21 pm

wmbjk <wmbjkREMOVE@citlink.net> wrote:

>The 4.5 cu.ft. (half the size of the Mt. Best conversion) custom-built
>chest version (fridge only, manual defrost) with R43 insulation, used
>180 Whrs per day at 70F.

If a 15 ft^3 fridge conversion uses 366 Wh/day at 36 F in a 70 F room,
with an equivalent cubical surface of 6x15^(1/3) = 36.5 ft^2, a 4.5 ft^3
version with an equivalent surface of 16.35 ft^2 would use 16.35/36.5x366
= 164 Wh/day.

>The closest comparable commercially available model is the expensive
>Sunfrost R4 upright, 3.91 cu.ft., with a rated energy consumption of
>100 Whrs per day at 70F.

....3.91 ft^3 sounds pretty useless for a home fridge.

>
>Between 59 and 70F... the Sunfrost R4 and the custom-built Novacool
>chest fridge both use substantially more energy per cu.ft. than
>the Mt. Best conversion, I'm guessing it's 59F at Mt. Best much more
>often than it's 70. ;-)

We might more fairly compare energy as above. Having traded some email
with Dr. Chalko, who seems less than forthcoming, I suggest we just
proceed on our own.

>
>Me too. And since you may be the perfect guy to do it, consider
>yourself nominated. ;-)

No thanks, altho I might contribute a little money. Maybe Steve...

>
>Sunfrost emphasizes efficiency over price, and their thick-walled RF
>16 is rated at 700 Whrs per day at 90 F... I'd expect a conversion's
>consumption to be higher than Sun Frost's per cu.ft...

What's this Sunfrost capacity? Why would a conversion with the same
capacity use more energy? We can answer this question with numbers.

Nick

Solar Flare

2005-08-30, 9:21 pm

I am looking for a smaller freezer at this moment to do just that. The
smaller units only include one basket usually.

An upright freezer (frostless) is really what I want but they need multiple
doors or a way to stopp all the cold air from sliding out the bottom when
you food shop inside with the door open.

As far as you imaginary statements at the bottom. I have no idea what you
are on about. I have only ever had one ISP.

Somebody pulling your leg? or mine?

"wmbjk" <wmbjkREMOVE@citlink.net> wrote in message
news:tpt8h1pba4j0b61nhab9kuosateesep6fr@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 20:38:33 -0400, "Solar Flare" <sflare@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/edca...2004/fridge/fri
dgefreeze_partautodef_eff.htm
>
cu[color=darkred]
>
> A chest freezer used as a fridge is likely to have wasted space to
> make lower tier contents more easily accessible. Imagine an empty
> space allowing top and mid-level baskets to slide so that lower items
> can be seen and removed. The size of the space would depend on the
> owner's tolerance for inconvenience, but it might be a foot wide, 2/3
> the height of the box, and full depth. About 4 cu.ft.
>
>
> That's quite a statement coming from someone who works so hard to
> confuse the rest of us. You're posting from Canada, but claim to be
> building a home in Michigan. In your previous incarnations of Gymmy
> Bob and John Bengi, you claimed to have killfiled many of us, yet are
> still magically able to respond to our posts. Perhaps you should list
> all the identities you're using at present, and explain why you use
> multiple ISPs, why you keep changing your name, and why you use
> multiple identities in the same thread.
>
> Wayne

wmbjk

2005-08-30, 10:21 pm

On 30 Aug 2005 17:44:52 -0400, nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu wrote:

>wmbjk <wmbjkREMOVE@citlink.net> wrote:
>
>
>If a 15 ft^3 fridge conversion uses 366 Wh/day at 36 F in a 70 F room,
>with an equivalent cubical surface of 6x15^(1/3) = 36.5 ft^2, a 4.5 ft^3
>version with an equivalent surface of 16.35 ft^2 would use 16.35/36.5x366
>= 164 Wh/day.

Or working up from a known quantity, if we use the custom-built chest
fridge as a benchmark, scale it up, add a freezer section, and imagine
that a conversion might not be as well insulated, then we're likely to
be well above that 366 Whrs/day, and probably at or above the 70F 480
Whrs/day rating of the Sunfrost RF16. Judging by the ratings here
http://www.sunfrost.com/refrigerator_specs.html, the energy
consumption increase going from 70 to 90F seems to be about 46%. So if
we assume that the conversion will use say, 550 Whrs/day at 70, then
we might expect ~800 Whrs/day at 90. That's still pretty good compared
to commercial offerings though, especially for the price.

>
>...3.91 ft^3 sounds pretty useless for a home fridge.

I agree. The only point of mentioning it was to put some of the other
numbers in perspective.

>
>What's this Sunfrost capacity?

3.9 freezer, 10.4 fridge, 14.3 cu.ft. total,

> Why would a conversion with the same
>capacity use more energy?

Because the Sunfrosts are purpose built to be the most efficient
models on the market, and they're very well insulated on all six
sides, probably better than the freezer conversion even with
additions. The chest configuration of the conversion is claimed to be
a key to much lower consumption than commercially available fridges,
and yet a top door didn't seem to help the custom-built chest model
fridge at all considering the Sunfrost R4 numbers.

> ( We can answer this question with numbers.

But not with a number of assumptions. :-)

Wayne

wmbjk

2005-08-30, 10:21 pm

On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 19:58:43 -0400, "Solar Flare" <sflare@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>"wmbjk" <wmbjkREMOVE@citlink.net> wrote in message
>news:tpt8h1pba4j0b61nhab9kuosateesep6fr@4ax.com...
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
>cu
>
>I am looking for a smaller freezer at this moment to do just that. The
>smaller units only include one basket usually.
>
>An upright freezer (frostless) is really what I want but they need multiple
>doors or a way to stopp all the cold air from sliding out the bottom when
>you food shop inside with the door open.

My "confused" advice to you is to get one of those old-fashioned chest
freezers with a sturdy latch. Climb inside, close the door, and check
to see if the light is on or off.

>As far as you imaginary statements at the bottom. I have no idea what you
>are on about. I have only ever had one ISP.

Oh please. It's a little late to try to convince us that you're not
Gymmy Bob/John Benji etc, what with all the talk of "trolling" and top
posting nonsense.

>Somebody pulling your leg? or mine

Pull all the legs you like, but I doubt you'll convince anyone.
Perhaps it's time to change names again. Try bottom posting again next
time, stay civil, and don't call everyone trolls. It might even delay
your being exposed for a couple of days.

Wayne

Solar Flare

2005-08-31, 1:21 am

Well I don't know what drugs you are on bu they aren't too good.

Buh bye now

"wmbjk" <wmbjkREMOVE@citlink.net> wrote in message
news:put9h1dkn4dbprubpmgtqrfes2131a0i6p@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 19:58:43 -0400, "Solar Flare" <sflare@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
wasted[color=darkred]
>
15[color=darkred]
multiple[color=darkred]
>
> My "confused" advice to you is to get one of those old-fashioned chest
> freezers with a sturdy latch. Climb inside, close the door, and check
> to see if the light is on or off.
>
>
> Oh please. It's a little late to try to convince us that you're not
> Gymmy Bob/John Benji etc, what with all the talk of "trolling" and top
> posting nonsense.
>
>
> Pull all the legs you like, but I doubt you'll convince anyone.
> Perhaps it's time to change names again. Try bottom posting again next
> time, stay civil, and don't call everyone trolls. It might even delay
> your being exposed for a couple of days.
>
> Wayne

Wayne Whitney

2005-08-31, 2:21 pm

On 2005-08-30, <nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu> wrote:

> I don't need another fridge, but I'd like to see someone do this
> [chest freezer conversion] in the US and report on results in an HP
> story.

FWIW, freezer/refrigerator temperature controllers are available
commercially, aimed primarily at the beer home brewing market. E.g.
<http://ceisites.com/9025.html>

Cheers, Wayne

LinkBot