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| Kiwi John 2005-09-03, 9:21 am |
| I feel sorry for the good people in New Orleans
those that heeded the warnings and got out well done
those that never and could of an act of bloody stupidity and as for the
aftermath those that are looting and being shown on TV including the 2
black police woman I hope you rot in hell
to the rapists and murderers you will get yours I dearly hope
to the American government what an absolute waste of space you are you
can spend billions on shooting Arabs etc but you cant even organise a
relief effort for your own people
mind you George Bush snr wont make any money off of helping out the south
now will he yet he is making millions off the war
| |
|
|
I believe what we are seeing is the inefficiency of a democratic system
in an emergency...
we have all sorts of political figures that want people to think that
they can handle anything....if they get that idea across their jobs are
sure things....they also are unwilling to admit that there might be
something that they can not handle....
Since they all are trying to be the "hero's" of the situation they end
up
doing nothing but interfering with each other....normally this would not
make to much difference...except that it takes longer then it should for
things to get done...and things are normally not bad enough for the
inefficiency to show....
In a catastrophic (sp) situation such as NO what is needed is a
dictatorship...
someone in charge who says "do this" .... "do that"....and if anyone
argues they get shot...<grin>....
In our democratic society the laws are set up so that everything has to
go through a bunch of politicians and people who have their own little
domains...they all have to approve everything and everyone has to reach
a consensus to do something....
We have never had such a bad situation occur within most of our
lifetimes in
the United States...and are not set up to immediately declare marshal
law in
one of our cities and turn that city over to the military....
The military is set up to handle situations such as we are
experiencing...and
it is also a dictatorship....because a dictatorship is the most
efficient way
of handling an emergency situation.....it is so "anti" our basic ideals
that
even in such a situation like we have it is not thought of...or used....
thank you for listening to my thoughts......sno
Kiwi John wrote:
>
> I feel sorry for the good people in New Orleans
> those that heeded the warnings and got out well done
>
> those that never and could of an act of bloody stupidity and as for the
> aftermath those that are looting and being shown on TV including the 2
> black police woman I hope you rot in hell
>
> to the rapists and murderers you will get yours I dearly hope
>
> to the American government what an absolute waste of space you are you
> can spend billions on shooting Arabs etc but you cant even organise a
> relief effort for your own people
>
> mind you George Bush snr wont make any money off of helping out the south
> now will he yet he is making millions off the war
--
Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it
This tag line is generated by:
SLTG (Silly Little Tag Generator)
| |
| the seventh sign 2005-09-04, 1:21 am |
| Kiwi John wrote:
> I feel sorry for the good people in New Orleans
> those that heeded the warnings and got out well done
>
> those that never and could of an act of bloody stupidity and as for the
> aftermath those that are looting and being shown on TV including the 2
> black police woman I hope you rot in hell
>
> to the rapists and murderers you will get yours I dearly hope
>
> to the American government what an absolute waste of space you are you
> can spend billions on shooting Arabs etc but you cant even organise a
> relief effort for your own people
>
> mind you George Bush snr wont make any money off of helping out the south
> now will he yet he is making millions off the war
We have an unusual opportunity to rebuild an entire city with modern
technology and building structures to withstand category 5 hurricanes
and solar / wind technology.
Question is Will we?
TSS
| |
| Winston 2005-09-04, 2:21 am |
| the seventh sign wrote:
(...)
> We have an unusual opportunity to rebuild an entire city with modern
> technology and building structures to withstand category 5 hurricanes
> and solar / wind technology.
>
> Question is Will we?
During the next big hurricane, that technology and those structures could
be in a 16 ft deep lake that used to be New^2 Orleans.
Isn't there a better way?
--Winston
| |
| Arnold Walker 2005-09-04, 5:21 am |
| Louisanai's even worse than you realize.
As an example ,the hurricane that hit.
It has been one of the campaign promises for fifty years.
That's right folks in New Orleans perdicted this event in the 50's.
And with the exception of looting went exactlly as predicted.
The poor mayor....think schools like in 1800 buses with 600usable after
flood.
How many were used ....one that was hotwired by a fifteen year who loaded
Superdome victims and went to Houston.
Governor.......Did you notice that 600 almost 700 Texas National Guard and
200 Misssissppi National Guard beat the Louisana National Guard to New
Orlean.
How remote was that Lousiana Guard unit anyway?
Plan for action.......new Orlean was targeted for oil refinery(heck the
whole golden triangle downhere) rivaling New York.
No fuel......no power.
Hence,was required to have disaster plan........the hurricane wasn't much
different then a major dirty bomb.
Wonder what the story on disaster plan was.........hopefully, they didn't
plan what happened.
Both city and state oversite folded within minutes of the event.
Then the federal government pickuped on all three roles.
I don't think this happened in the Chicago fire or San Francisco earthquack.
Or for that matter New York World Trade Center.
"sno" <sno@opelc.com> wrote in message
news:1125754324.07373688310e82f3c3268283180a3ea2@teranews...
>
> I believe what we are seeing is the inefficiency of a democratic system
> in an emergency...
> we have all sorts of political figures that want people to think that
> they can handle anything....if they get that idea across their jobs are
> sure things....they also are unwilling to admit that there might be
> something that they can not handle....
>
> Since they all are trying to be the "hero's" of the situation they end
> up
> doing nothing but interfering with each other....normally this would not
> make to much difference...except that it takes longer then it should for
> things to get done...and things are normally not bad enough for the
> inefficiency to show....
>
> In a catastrophic (sp) situation such as NO what is needed is a
> dictatorship...
> someone in charge who says "do this" .... "do that"....and if anyone
> argues they get shot...<grin>....
>
> In our democratic society the laws are set up so that everything has to
> go through a bunch of politicians and people who have their own little
> domains...they all have to approve everything and everyone has to reach
> a consensus to do something....
>
> We have never had such a bad situation occur within most of our
> lifetimes in
> the United States...and are not set up to immediately declare marshal
> law in
> one of our cities and turn that city over to the military....
>
> The military is set up to handle situations such as we are
> experiencing...and
> it is also a dictatorship....because a dictatorship is the most
> efficient way
> of handling an emergency situation.....it is so "anti" our basic ideals
> that
> even in such a situation like we have it is not thought of...or used....
>
> thank you for listening to my thoughts......sno
>
> Kiwi John wrote:
you[color=darkred]
south[color=darkred]
>
> --
> Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it
>
> This tag line is generated by:
>
> SLTG (Silly Little Tag Generator)
----== Posted via droptable.com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.droptable.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----
| |
| Kiwi John 2005-09-04, 6:21 am |
| i know I said New Orleans as thats where most of the news we are getting
here is coming from hows the surrounding area affected is it to the same
extent
i know it didnt just hit New Orleans
the NOAA site is predictting another 6 major events before the end of
november with all the climate changes thats happening theres absolutely
nothing to say they couldnt be cat 5's
In the last gazillion years there has been storm after storm that has hit
the south coast surley theres is some form of help in place
as has been stated the outcome has been predicted for years do they
A just wipe out the whole city
or
B rebuild it where it is put a wall around it like they have I think in
Holland with huge doors in it that close in minutes
from an outsider I feel that the polititions there only talk the talk and
dont walk the walk
and to watch George Bush going around hugging people telling them hes sorry
and will sort it out is about as good as a dime watch. to take photo
opotunities at a time like that is moraly wrong
for years you have been treated like mushrooms and told everything will be
alright when the truth is they have been pissing in each others pockets and
making millions ( we will just have another committe look into it)
"Winston" <Winston@BigBrother.net> wrote in message
news:As6dnW60gIq_4IfeRVn-jQ@speakeasy.net...
> the seventh sign wrote:
> (...)
>
> During the next big hurricane, that technology and those structures could
> be in a 16 ft deep lake that used to be New^2 Orleans.
>
> Isn't there a better way?
>
> --Winston
| |
|
| > mind you George Bush snr wont make any money off of helping out the south
> now will he yet he is making millions off the war
>
Here is a first had recap of the events, from GROUND ZERO!
From someone that was there!!!!!!
Not the lies that the stupid TV is passing out.
http://terrapin.zeroforum.com/zerot...print&id=258153
Post Title: My day in NO(nightmare)
Posted by: hyjacker at 6:20 PM 8/31/2005
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just finished a 22 hour search and rescue in NO. I've never seen anything
like it. I also have to say there is a prevasive evil down there that I've
never seen at ANY other disaster site in the U.S.This is my fith major.
Today we were twice shot at and once almost robbed by people we saved from
there own roof tops. . There is an element of people down there that are
committing violent crime for no other reason than they apparantly think they
can get away with it.
I saw many dead people today and some that were on there way to being that
way.
If tomorrow is anything like today I'm out. I want to help but not by
leaving my children fatherless because some idiot thinks we have enough
money on us to make it worth shooting us.
So far it has been the very worst of human nature.
That's all the time I've got on the PC today. If I'm able I'll try again
tomorrow.
What the hell is wrong with these people. I understand stealing food if
you're starving but not T.V, Stereo Jeans etc.
I'm really tired and disgusted.
cya
Post Title: Re: My day in NO(nightmare) (Frosty)
Posted by: hyjacker at 11:48 PM 8/31/2005
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just got my wake up call. Feels like I never went to sleep. Heading back in
in about 20 min with my same team from today. Dowing neighborhood sweeps by
small john boats looking for people that are stranded and need to be
evacuated and marking houses that have bodies in them so we can deal with it
later. I had the worst dreams tonight. I've really got to shake it off and
get to work.
Talk to you all tomorrow God willing.
Post Title: Re: My day in NO(nightmare) (dhs)
Posted by: hyjacker at 11:56 PM 8/31/2005
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
my kingdom for a shower
Post Title: Re: My day in NO(nightmare) (Lepidodendron)
Posted by: hyjacker at 12:00 AM 9/1/2005
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There will be 5 ships here in a day or two from what we've been told
including a working hospitalship (badly needed) I actually need a couple of
stitches myself right now.
Post Title: Re: My day in NO(nightmare) (sure-ur-rightdancer)
Posted by: hyjacker at 12:05 AM 9/1/2005
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
OK I'm heading out. cya all tomorrow. Please keep those donations coming in.
We're desperate down here
Post Title: Re: My day in NO(nightmare) (Eddie Z)
Posted by: hyjacker at 7:33 AM 9/1/2005
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Back for the morning.They won't allow anymore night trips. Very erie it got
really quiet last night. All you could hear was frogs and an occassional gun
shot. Way too dangerous. The situation is deteriorating here. They actually
had to take police off search and rescue and put them on enforcement.People
are actually going to die because some can't control themselves. Really sad.
Staying out of the city today to do logistical stuff. Pretty happy about
that I need a day to shake it off.
cya
Post Title: Re: My day in NO(nightmare) (DayStar)
Posted by: hyjacker at 7:39 AM 9/1/2005
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One amusing point. I just spoke to my son and he told me Jon Corzine's
cmpaign called the house last night looking for donations toward his run for
Governor of NJ. Excellent timing Jon. Good work. I'm sure if he knew those
calls were being made right now he'd stop them. Anybody from Jersey want to
call his office?
Post Title: Re: My day in NO(nightmare) (Critter)
Posted by: hyjacker at 7:44 AM 9/1/2005
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My supervisor just told me they had to shut down one of the only functioning
hospitals in Gretna I think because the staff was being held up at gunpoint
by roving gangs. I hope it isn't true but I'm fairly sure it is. One of our
other teams from last night has not reported in and id concidered missing
right now.
A few more reports like this and I've got to pull the plug and head
home.It's just getting way too dangerous
Post Title: Re: My day in NO(nightmare) (Mutant)
Posted by: hyjacker at 4:13 PM 9/1/2005
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Latest from here. The Army is fully prepared to send in troops and aid but
by law can't do so until the local governments (Governor) signs a formal
request. For whatever reason they have not done so. I have no idea why not.
They're staged and ready and can't do a god damn thing right now.
I'm heading back into the city with an armed excort this time although
rescue is rapidly turning to recovery. I'm in hell. People are starving to
death and we just can't get to them. Last night I saw an entire family
drowned in there attic. So many people just refused to leave (some couldn't
but the truth of the matter is most of the ones we've seen could have) Now
they can't and maybe never will.
If you're ever asked to evacuate. Do it.
Meterie is under a mandatory evacuation order(that's where I am now) It is
not flooded here because only the NO side of the Levee broke. The looters
are literally lined up waiting to raid this place when the people move out.
So the people are digging in and there is still No permission from the local
government for Bush to allow the army in. I just can't understand it at all.
My other team from last night is still missing. No idea if they're OK or
not. We're going back in in about twenty minutes. Pray for us all but this
city is dead. I'm going to try not to wind up that way myself. I don't know
if we'll be allowed back in here or not so this may be my last entry.
cya
Post Title: Re: (Laura)
Posted by: hyjacker at 9:27 PM 9/1/2005
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Done for now going to getsome sleep before we go back out. Starting to get a
litle punchy. You just can't get to people with all the flooding. Just
figuring out where the hell you are is a real pain. The guard is on the
ground here trying to restore order. We saw a bunch of reporters really
trying to stir up shit. Every question they ask who do you blame? Who's at
fault? Shouldn't everyone be recieving help by now?
The truth of the matter is there is no way a disaster of this magnitude will
not result in a lot of deaths and many people not recieving help. So many
people had the ability to leave and just didn't I really can't understand
it. People with kids and elderly. It really eats at me.
I think the flooding has stopped but they can't start draining until the
pumps come back up.
I'm not sure how much of this I can handle but I don't feel like I can leave
because I'm already up to speed and in place. I'm taking it an hour at a
time. No idea what we're doing tomorrow. Guess I'll find out soon enough.
Good Night
Post Title: Re: (annab)
Posted by: hyjacker at 10:09 PM 9/1/2005
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
dog tired can't sleep. Too much noise I guess pretty crazy around here
Post Title: Re: (irieday)
Posted by: hyjacker at 10:22 PM 9/1/2005
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What I probably need is some marathon sex to knock me out but the odds on
that are somewhere less than zero so I think I'll slam my head in the truck
door a few times to take the edge off.
Post Title: Re: (c*j)
Posted by: hyjacker at 7:46 AM 9/2/2005
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quick update then I've got to move.Some maniacs set a chemical plant on
fire. Toxic fumews are drifting over the area. Thanks! Also people are
streaming in here from all over the contry with video camaras to get a look.
I just threw one in the river while some arrogant punk explained his civil
rights to me. The kid had no business being here what so ever.
DON"T COME TO THIS AREA TO LOOK AROUND. Please pass it on so we don't need
to discuss civil rights with anyone else. They're clogging up the roadways
and slowing our efforts and generally pissing us off. I have no interest in
being the subject of someones home movie right now. Or later for that
matter.
Got to go to work
cya
Post Title: Re: (katiekane)
Posted by: hyjacker at 11:32 AM 9/2/2005
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just back for a break re-load and to get my leg stitched up(a little
laceration there) Still pretty tough going down here.Tons of federal
assistance down here with no local knowlage or local government folks to
assist them or tell them where to go. The local link in the chain has failed
miserably.We can see the supplies and troops and there is no direction.
Also it must be said that N.O.s own people are killing them and it isn't a
small group of them. This is the fifth major disaster I've been involved
with and the worst group of people I've ever seen. They won't help
themselves, they won't help each other. I've never seen anything like it. In
the end they've failed themselves. Really tired disgusted and bleeding a
little bit at the moment. We're moving this afternoon but I don't know to
where so I'll talk to you all when we re-settle if that's possible. They may
be pulling us way back or out I just don't know.
bye sorry I'm a grouch today but I'm just dissappointed in the very people
I'm here to help.
Post Title: Re: (Phishfolk)
Posted by: hyjacker at 11:45 AM 9/2/2005
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just found out we're moving to Kenner. cya on the other side
Post Title: Re: (katiekane)
Posted by: hyjacker at 2:20 PM 9/2/2005
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
OMG I just had a hot meal and a cold soda. I don't think I've ever tasted
anything that good. I ended up with 11 stitches (one short of a personal
best with the exception of surgery).
Food and help is pouring in now. Our camp came under fire about a half hour
ago unttil the guard returned fire and ran these thugs right into the canal.
I'm pretty sure they shot them. These are the worst people I've ever seen.
They're burning, killing and raping in a disaster zone. I'm sure the rest of
the world thinks we're all animals by now. They wanted to send me home but
I'm going to stay till the end of next week or so(my kids where pretty upset
with me). We'll be in Kenner by dark then out to work near Algiers tonight I
think. We"ve got pretty good reports that there are still folks trapped out
there. We now have air boats so we can go pretty much anywhere.I hope it
isn't too late. The clock is running on peoples lives and I'm sitting here
eating and posting on the MB. Got to go I'm a little hurlish right now.
love you all. Hope I can update later but I don't think I'll be able to from
the new camp
Post Title: Re: (Mind Left Body)
Posted by: hyjacker at 4:56 PM 9/2/2005
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We are set up in Kenner. I have a cot and my own little area and fresh
cloths. We're leaving in 10 minutes with a group of airboats to pick up who
ever we can find. I expect we'll be back some time in the early AM. There
are a lot of reporters in our camp and they're really begining to piss me
off.They are inciting the blame game and anyone who isn't willing to point
the finger at the Feds isn't getting on camera. They just had me and I know
that I won't wind up on the air(cnn). Let me just say that from the ground I
can tell you the Mayor and the Governor have failed miserable and the people
themselves haven't done much better.There are healthy people here, many of
them who could help and simply won't. All we get is when is someone coming
for us. Why did it take you so long. I've seen grown healthy men refuse to
help women with young children and it makes me sick. I've never seen this
kind of behaviour in any other disaster at least this much of it.
I pulled three young men out of a house yesterday, fed them gave them water
and asked if they could help me check other houses in that area and the
answer I got was that's your job.
When I leave here I will never come back. During Hugo, Andew, Ivan and 9/11
people tryed to help there neighbors. Down here they step over them
Sickening.
I should be able to update around 4 or 5 AM or so. I'm really hoping to find
good people somewhere in this mess. I know that sounds terrible but that's
really the way it is down here. It's help me fuck you and blame everyone
except yourself.
On another note I met a family that lost everything. I'm trying to get thenm
to Jersey to my house. They're going to stay with me for a bit until they
figure it out. If I can work it out can anyone help me get them from Texas
to NJ or at least Georgia? I'll check back when we get in.
One more observation, there was plenty of help and supplies here from the
start but NO local help to get it where it needed to go. A very sad fact but
true.
bye
Post Title: Re: My day in NO(nightmare) (b-smilin')
Posted by: hyjacker at 8:41 AM 9/3/2005
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm officially sprung. We've been relieved. I'm hitching a ride on a cargo
plane in about 45 min.We have the option of going to work the shelters
(which was really or main function anyway before we had to freelance a
little)but concidering a couple injuries I've picked up I think I've done
what I can.
I'm going home
cya
Post Title: Re: My day in NO(nightmare) (crazyredbeard)
Posted by: hyjacker at 2:25 PM 9/3/2005
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My last word on this:
I will most likely not be involved in any discussion about this either
inperson or on the board. I'mn done with it and I just want to forget about
it for a while.
I knew my family would freak if they knew I was going down so the only one I
told was my sonand he to his credit would never drop dime on his dad. I told
everyone else I was going upstate for a week and they bought it. (this will
delay the B&B thing a bit. My wife(who I am seperated from), father, mother
sisters etc all think I have too much John Wayne in me and think I take too
many risks in general lectured me as soon as this storm hit about how I
shouldn't go etc. So I didn't tell them. I will but not today, hopefully
they won't hear it somewhere else or haven't already. Either way I'm in no
rush to fess up. They'll find out soon enough but I'm going to hide out
today and actually may head upstate for a couple days.
I did what I did because I wanted to help and because I could. I'm not a
hero or anything like it I just had the opportunity and felt like I should
help.
As far as all the people I hear rushing to place blame here's how I see it.I
blame every person who stepped over or didn't help someone else when they
were able too and there was a ton of that. I blame those who committed
crimes of violence and prevented us from helping. I blame the people who
wouldn't even help themselves even though many of them were able to. I blame
those who could have easily left the area and didn't even though they had
the means. Most common answer given "I just wanted to ride it out". I blame
a police force who was indifferent to people in many cases and walk off the
job when they were needed most. I blame a police chief who didn't follow
standard proceedure and protocol like they do in every other city. Stop the
looters on day one, cover the most likely targets like the gun shops. The
reason there wasn't wide spead looting in Miami or Charleston is because the
police followed basic procedures and got the messege out early that if you
loot you'll be caught or shot.
I blame a mayor who instead of taking control of the situation and getting
out in the streets with his cell phone sat in his office and begged for
federal help which almost never arrives in force for four days or so. I
blame a mayor who told his police force to allow the looting to continue.
People were emboldened when they saw that looting was going to be tolerated.
I blame a mayor who and governor who had no real plan for their city and
really had the attitude of "the feds will handle it.
The feds got there pretty quickly but guess wht? They needed the local
support on the ground so they would know where to go and where help was
needed. They had no idea because they hadn't beed told that the convention
ctr was full of refugees. No mayor, staff, cops or governor to be found.
Pretty frigging pathetic. I blame anyone that thinks you can keep water out
of a city that's sinking and already 4 ft below sea level indefinetly
I also resent the fact that people that live in a serious flood plane are
suprised by any of this.
Most of all I blame people that were so unwilling to help themselves or
eachother in general. Half of them could have walked right out of town. I
did and tryed to encourage those that could to do the same. Nope! Someone
will come for us.
I know alot of what I said seems mean spirited. I'm sorry but that's the way
I saw it.
I probable have nothing else to say about this, who'd listen anyway.
If you run into any of my people please wait until I fess up before you rat
me out. They're going to be really bugged.
Oh one more thing I certainly blame a Governor who said on Tuesday that
there's nothing we can do about looters. That is a ridiculous statement and
pretty much opened the flood gates.
Modified by hyjacker at 11:37 AM 9/3/2005
Post Title: Re: My day in NO(nightmare) (violetta)
Posted by: hyjacker at 9:48 PM 9/3/2005
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
oH WELL I got busted as soon as i GOT BACK.Went to see my kids and I must
have that I've just spent 5 days in NO in the mud look. Ex told my folks and
who now really think I have a John Wayne complex.
Got a shower and a nap, hugged my kids. Life is good. I'm going back to
Texas in about 10 days I think. My GF will come with so it won't be too bad.
If anyone can get down they'll need volunteers for at least 3 or 4
months.Ask your bosses for paid leave. They're being encouraged to do that
so you never know.
I'm HOME!!!!!!
Post Title: Re: My day in NO(nightmare) (jambear68)
Posted by: hyjacker at 10:29 PM 9/3/2005
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
By the time your people get down there it should be OK. The really bad
conditions are in NO and that is going to be completely evacuated so where
ever they wind up should be OK. We were in the city. I found out after the
fact that we really weren't supposed to be. Chaulk it up to bad
communication but at least our services went to good use for the most part.
YOu know I'm so pissed right now. Just saw a clip off Jesse Jackson blasting
the Red Cross for not being in the city when in fact we were told (although
my guys missed the messege) not to go in there by the Governor and the head
of FEMA because we are not a primarily a search and rescue group, we
generally handle shelter and food and they wanted everyone out of the city
including us. If we set up shelters in the city no one would have left.
So let me just say fuck you Jessie, check your facts before you trash us.I
also must have missed him while I was wading around in the street because I
didn't see him.
I would probably do better not to watch the news huh.
Post Title: Re: My day in NO(nightmare) (jambear68)
Posted by: hyjacker at 10:38 PM 9/3/2005
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anyway it should be ok for volunteers by Tuesday. The city will be a ghost
town for a while. I'm going to the beach and toss my kayak in for a bit.cya
later. Beats the crap out of watching the news. From what I've seen so far I
wonder if they were covering the same city I was in. Half the stuff I've
seen on there today is skewed. I wish they just report and let us figure out
the rest or at least report the truth without ignoring facts.
| |
| Vaughn 2005-09-04, 12:21 pm |
|
"Arnold Walker" <arnoldwalker@consolidated.net> wrote in message
news:1125821153_6603@spool6-east.superfeed.net...
> How remote was that Lousiana Guard unit anyway?
That is a fair question that deserves an answer. Along with that, I would
ask what percentage of the La guard were in Iraq and, and, of those that were
left here, how many units retained any effectiveness after the hurricane? I
would not be surprised to discover that many La guardsmen were not only totally
out of touch with their units, but were busy keeping themselves and their
families alive.
I live in a hurricane area, and my expectation is that primary relief
activities are provided by the local and state governments, with the federal
government taking a supporting role. For this reason, I am surprised at the
flack the federal government is taking over Katrina. (Believe me, I am NO Bush
apologist.) "Relief activities" are something that start years before the event
with PLANNING; local planning, not something done in Washington. I see little
evidence of an effective regional post-disaster plan in the Katrina area. They
are simply making it up as they go.
> Hence,was required to have disaster plan........the hurricane wasn't much
> different then a major dirty bomb.
Yes, my thought exactly. This disaster would not be much different than a
huge WMD event. One major difference is the national psychological response.
Even though this is a much larger event than 911, look at the difference in how
the stock market responded.
> Wonder what the story on disaster plan was.........hopefully, they didn't
> plan what happened.
They damn well should have...
> Both city and state oversight folded within minutes of the event.
> Then the federal government pickuped on all three roles.
Exactly. I understand why the NO government folded (all of their employees
were suddenly shell-shocked refugees fighting to keep their families alive) but
what about the state government?
> I don't think this happened in the Chicago fire or San Francisco earthquake.
> Or for that matter New York World Trade Center.
You mean the civil disorder? Didn't happen after hurricane Andrew either,
or the various California earthquakes. There is simply no excuse.
Vaughn
| |
| Harry Chickpea 2005-09-04, 1:21 pm |
| "Vaughn" <vaughnsimonHATESSPAM@att.fake.net> wrote:
> You mean the civil disorder? Didn't happen after hurricane Andrew either,
>or the various California earthquakes. There is simply no excuse.
Uhhh. It DID happen after Andrew. Big time until the national guard
came in - and that was with the Miami police being in a lot better
condition than the N.O. police.
| |
| Tony Wesley 2005-09-04, 1:21 pm |
| Arnold Walker wrote:
> Louisanai's even worse than you realize.
> As an example ,the hurricane that hit.
> It has been one of the campaign promises for fifty years.
> That's right folks in New Orleans perdicted this event in the 50's.
> And with the exception of looting went exactlly as predicted.
> The poor mayor....think schools like in 1800 buses with 600usable after
> flood.
> How many were used ....one that was hotwired by a fifteen year who loaded
> Superdome victims and went to Houston.
That was eighteen-year-old Jabbor Gibson.
http://www.newschannel5.tv/2005/9/1...n-the-Astrodome
> Governor.......Did you notice that 600 almost 700 Texas National Guard and
> 200 Misssissppi National Guard beat the Louisana National Guard to New
> Orlean.
No, I didn't, because it's not true.
The Louisiana National Guard was there in the Superdome on Monday.
http://www.cnn.com/2005/WEATHER/08/...dome/index.html
You can see them in the video that can be launched from that page.
Almost 3,500 of them were on duty Monday morning.
"The Louisiana National Guard had called almost 3,500 of its members
to state active duty as of 7 a.m. Monday to help with missions that
ranged from aiding law enforcement agencies with traffic control and
security to conducting searches and rescues and providing generator
support. Guard members conducted security and screening at the
emergency shelter at the New Orleans Superdome, and elsewhere helped
state police with evacuations."
http://www.shreveporttimes.com/apps...00352/1002/NEWS
When the first levee broke, it may have been reported first by the LNG.
4:42 AM [Tuesday]
The mainstream news (CNN) is reporting a 200 -foot breach
in levee near 177th st. canal. This report was reported live from
a Louisiana National Guard Lt. I haven't seen it on any of
the other major stations yet. Another report to Coast to Coast AM
radio program stated the water in New Orleans (where?) was rising an
inch an hour.
http://groups.google.com/group/alt....d8ac672c?hl=en&
> How remote was that Lousiana Guard unit anyway?
In the case of Louisiana National Guard's 256th Brigade, Iraq
| |
| Vaughn 2005-09-04, 2:21 pm |
|
"Harry Chickpea" <hchickpeaREMOVEME@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:431c12cb.14221016@localhost...
> "Vaughn" <vaughnsimonHATESSPAM@att.fake.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> Uhhh. It DID happen after Andrew. Big time until the national guard
> came in - and that was with the Miami police being in a lot better
> condition than the N.O. police.
I remember disorder, certainly chaos, doubtless there were examples of
looting, but nothing like the open lawlessness we are seeing in NO. For
example; I remember nothing about helicopters and rescuers being fired upon.
Did that happen after Andrew?
Vaughn
| |
|
| I keep thinking of that song by The Tragically Hip: "New Orleans is
sinking... and I don't wanna swim..."
| |
| Harry Chickpea 2005-09-04, 5:21 pm |
| "Vaughn" <vaughnsimonHATESSPAM@att.fake.net> wrote:
>
>"Harry Chickpea" <hchickpeaREMOVEME@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:431c12cb.14221016@localhost...
>
> I remember disorder, certainly chaos, doubtless there were examples of
>looting, but nothing like the open lawlessness we are seeing in NO. For
>example; I remember nothing about helicopters and rescuers being fired upon.
>Did that happen after Andrew?
Helicopters were rare. The news media had a lot of flyovers, but the
main presence of the guard, police, and support was on the ground.
The looting was the main issue, especially at night. At night, yes,
there was shooting. Remember though, in Miami there are guns going
off on a regular basis.
The point is that civil disorder is to be expected after a
catastrophe. The extent of that disorder depends on a lot of factors.
Heat, humidity, frustration, and lack of police are only a few of
them.
| |
| Harry Chickpea 2005-09-04, 5:21 pm |
| "Tony Wesley" <tonywesley@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>No, I didn't, because it's not true.
Thanks for setting the record straight. There are a lot of people
trying to spin this without regards to facts or documentation.
Understand that once FEMA comes in, it says it is in charge, and it
physically blocks others from taking action. The director of FEMA,
Michael Brown, has the worthy credentials of having been the
enforcement arm of an Arabian horse breeding society. He has no
experience in crisis management, engineering, battlefield management,
etc. He was appointed to his position by Bush. I'm beginning to
wonder if he was W's bookie.
Brown is the one who lost the thousands of people at the convention
center, turned away the Florida airboaters who had been requested by
the Louisiana emergency management folks for search and rescue in the
flooded areas, and fought with the national guard over protocol.
Putting it bluntly, he never was qualified for the job, and Bush
placed him in that position, where he would be the one to be in
control when all of the worst kinds of hell broke loose. This
criminal incompetence killed people and caused thousands to needlessly
suffer.
The spin machine is going full blast to hide this, but the fact is
that ONLY the POTUS can call active military up for use within the
U.S.. That law was just passed... in 1810. The La. gov. had no
control once FEMA set foot on the ground. The mayor had no control
once FEMA took over. If FEMA ever comes into your area, look out.
You're screwed.
| |
| Tony Wesley 2005-09-04, 5:21 pm |
|
Harry Chickpea wrote:
> "Tony Wesley" <tonywesley@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Thanks for setting the record straight. There are a lot of people
> trying to spin this without regards to facts or documentation.
The Texas Guard arrived on Wednesday. See below:
Here's the list of who and when:
By The Associated Press
A day-by-day look at when National Guard troops from around the country
arrived in Louisiana and Mississippi, the two states hit hardest by
Hurricane Katrina:
TUESDAY, Aug. 30:
In Louisiana:
- 4,725, all from Louisiana
In Mississippi:
- 2,747, all from Mississippi
WEDNESDAY, Aug. 31:
In Louisiana:
- Ohio: nine
- Oklahoma: 89
- Texas: 625
In Mississippi:
Arkansas: 350
Delaware : 68
Florida: 350
Maryland: 130
THURSDAY, Sept. 1:
In Louisiana:
Arkansas: 446
Colorado: 4
Kansas: 12
Missouri: 40
Nevada: 12
Ohio: 210
Oklahoma: 283
Texas: 972
In Mississippi:
Alabama: 1,500
Ohio: 42
West Virginia: 3
FRIDAY, Sept. 2:
In Louisiana:
Alabama: 300
California: 517
Washington, DC: 100
Kansas: 87
Massachusetts: 100
Maryland: 65
Missouri: 10
North Carolina: 300
New Hampshire: 62
New Mexico: 250
Nevada: 92
Oklahoma: 210
Oregon: 100
Pennsylvania: 200
Puerto Rico: 60
Rhode Island: 150
Tennessee: 326
Vermont: 25
In Mississippi:
Delaware: 52
Georgia: 12
Indiana: 47
Ohio: 1200
SATURDAY, Sept. 3 (origins of Guard troops unavailable):
In Louisiana:
3,500
In Mississippi:
2,500
| |
| Bob Adkins 2005-09-06, 12:03 am |
| On Sun, 04 Sep 2005 20:08:10 GMT, hchickpeaREMOVEME@hotmail.com (Harry
Chickpea) wrote:
>The spin machine is going full blast to hide this, but the fact is
Talk about spin. You're a 1- man spin circus.
--
Bob
| |
| Bob Adkins 2005-09-06, 12:03 am |
| On Sun, 4 Sep 2005 18:43:56 +1000, "Kiwi John" <le_angel@hotmail.com> wrote:
>i know I said New Orleans as thats where most of the news we are getting
>here is coming from hows the surrounding area affected is it to the same
>extent
>
>i know it didnt just hit New Orleans
>the NOAA site is predictting another 6 major events before the end of
>november with all the climate changes thats happening theres absolutely
>nothing to say they couldnt be cat 5's
>
>In the last gazillion years there has been storm after storm that has hit
>the south coast surley theres is some form of help in place
I saw on TV last night that some experts think we have been in a "mild
hurricane cycle" for 30,000 years, and will be in a "severe hurricane cycle"
for the next 30,000 years. Man, I live only 65 miles from the Gulf, and I'm
not looking forward to the next 30,000 years!
--
Bob
| |
| Kiwi John 2005-09-13, 2:23 pm |
|
"Bob Adkins" <bobad@charter.net> wrote in message
news:fktph1pjtv2no12305v69trh7p03n24oin@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 4 Sep 2005 18:43:56 +1000, "Kiwi John" <le_angel@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
> I saw on TV last night that some experts think we have been in a "mild
> hurricane cycle" for 30,000 years, and will be in a "severe hurricane
> cycle"
> for the next 30,000 years. Man, I live only 65 miles from the Gulf, and
> I'm
> not looking forward to the next 30,000 years!
> --
> Bob
Guess you will have to take them one day or one year at a time
| |
| Derek Broughton 2005-09-13, 2:23 pm |
| Kiwi John wrote:
> as has been stated the outcome has been predicted for years do they
> A just wipe out the whole city
> or
> B rebuild it where it is put a wall around it like they have I think in
> Holland with huge doors in it that close in minutes
C!
They'll rebuild it, because one of the greatest attributes of America and
Americans is they refuse to let _anything_ beat them - of course that's
also one of their most annoying attributes...
But why build a wall/dike? - been there done that. My bet is that in the
end, they'll bulldoze everything, dredge 20' or more extra fill out of the
Gulf, and rebuild _above_ sea level - with exact replicas of at least parts
of the old city.
[color=darkred]
> "Winston" <Winston@BigBrother.net> wrote in message
> news:As6dnW60gIq_4IfeRVn-jQ@speakeasy.net...
No. See above...[color=darkred]
There's no excuse, and no likelihood, that the next New Orleans will be 16'
below sea level.
--
derek
| |
| Derek Broughton 2005-09-13, 2:23 pm |
| haha wrote:
> I keep thinking of that song by The Tragically Hip: "New Orleans is
> sinking... and I don't wanna swim..."
So do I - the producer was a childhood friend, and last I heard living in
New Orleans.
--
derek
| |
| mike mcwilliams 2005-09-13, 2:23 pm |
| Kiwi John wrote:
> "Bob Adkins" <bobad@charter.net> wrote in message
> news:fktph1pjtv2no12305v69trh7p03n24oin@4ax.com...
>
>
>
> Guess you will have to take them one day or one year at a time
>
>
Or do something smart like move away from the hurricane hit areas, have
a permanent home in montana, and a summer cottage (of lower cost
materials if you're a realistic gambler) in the warmer clime.
Or I suppose you could carve a bowl shaped area below sea level next to
the coast and pour a few billion into buildings and infrastructure...
Then stratify society by denying health benefits to the service workers
who get between 5 and 7 dollars an hour, raise the gas price by
destabilizing the middle east oil supply so oil investors get rich, and
be surprised when poor people start looting abandoned, flooded stores.
Theres a reason some people are calling it the wasteland of the the free
| |
| barry@sme-online.com 2005-09-13, 2:23 pm |
| Two things trouble me about the whole situation:
1) Reportedly a couple of years back the "W" administration refused to
budget the $14 billion for Mississippi-delta-restoration and
N.O.-flood-control projects proposed by agencies including the Army
Corps of Engineers. They cheaped out, resulting in allowing the
coastal marshland to disappear rapidly.
2) "W" & Co. refuse to sign on to Kyoto protocols because of possible
impact- slowing economic recovery. Seems to me there's a pretty good
correlation between global-warming, gulf-warming, and storm probability
and likely intensity. Which makes 1) above loom even larger. More yet
to come, sadly.
3) We have top-level bureaucrats in Washington who are quite
disconnected from news of events like levee-failure, because that news
doesn't flow over their "network." How about an intern watching CNN?
Doh!
IMHO, we have totally irresponsible idiots in Washington, except for
lining certain pockets. With recovery expense of maybe 100-200 billion,
lotsa pork coming.
"A reasonable man must be ashamed of his government."- H.L Mencken
J
| |
| Dave Hinz 2005-09-13, 2:23 pm |
| On 6 Sep 2005 10:26:51 -0700, barry@sme-online.com <barry@sme-online.com> wrote:
> Two things trouble me about the whole situation:
> 1) Reportedly a couple of years back the "W" administration refused to
> budget the $14 billion for Mississippi-delta-restoration and
> N.O.-flood-control projects proposed by agencies including the Army
> Corps of Engineers. They cheaped out, resulting in allowing the
> coastal marshland to disappear rapidly.
The budget process isn't the President's to control.
> 2) "W" & Co. refuse to sign on to Kyoto protocols because of possible
> impact- slowing economic recovery.
No, the President didn't sign Kyoto because it's just a foreign aid bill
in disguise. The US _can't_ meet the standards without "buying credits
from" undeveloped countries - in other words, it's extortion to get the
US to give yet more money to people in countries which don't appreciate
us. Bush is right in not signing it; Kyoto has _nothing_ to do with
reducing pollution and everything to do with extortion.
> Seems to me there's a pretty good
> correlation between global-warming, gulf-warming, and storm probability
> and likely intensity. Which makes 1) above loom even larger. More yet
> to come, sadly.
If Kyoto was about stopping global warming, you might have a point.
But, it's just about aid money.
> 3) We have top-level bureaucrats in Washington who are quite
> disconnected from news of events like levee-failure, because that news
> doesn't flow over their "network." How about an intern watching CNN?
> Doh!
The National Guard response was the governor's responsibility, not the
President's. And FEMA's job is to rebuild, not to evacuate. If you're
looking for a head to put on a platter, look no further than the La.
Governor.
> IMHO, we have totally irresponsible idiots in Washington, except for
> lining certain pockets. With recovery expense of maybe 100-200 billion,
> lotsa pork coming.
Obviously you've already got your mind made up, and are exploiting this
human tragedy for your own political points.
| |
| Arnold Walker 2005-09-13, 2:23 pm |
|
<barry@sme-online.com> wrote in message
news:1126027611.309344.120710@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> Two things trouble me about the whole situation:
> 1) Reportedly a couple of years back the "W" administration refused to
> budget the $14 billion for Mississippi-delta-restoration and
> N.O.-flood-control projects proposed by agencies including the Army
> Corps of Engineers. They cheaped out, resulting in allowing the
> coastal marshland to disappear rapidly.
50 years ago...actually.
> 2) "W" & Co. refuse to sign on to Kyoto protocols because of possible
> impact- slowing economic recovery. Seems to me there's a pretty good
> correlation between global-warming, gulf-warming, and storm probability
> and likely intensity. Which makes 1) above loom even larger. More yet
> to come, sadly.
Somehow Florida was hit by 4 hurricanes and in Katrina numerous other cities
and state.
And the mayor and governor was able to use their disaster plan,except N.O.
mayor.
No RTS,No schoolbuses,No nothing for special need folks with public
transportation.
Inspite of plan to do so,before major hurricane hits gale force winds.
If you lived in a soup bowl and had reason to believe what
happened.....would happen.
Is that any surprise.......
> 3) We have top-level bureaucrats in Washington who are quite
> disconnected from news of events like levee-failure, because that news
> doesn't flow over their "network." How about an intern watching CNN?
> Doh!
Levees that the mayor and past politicain promised to fix for 50 years.
But didn't....hence knew about and included in plan.That plan the mayor
chose not to use,when
the chips were down.Then ran to cover his rear before anybody noticed.
Like Bush and the Louisiana Governor said we need a fix,not politics...
But that is not what is happening,and folks are noticing it. And talking
about staying in the state they ran to.
At least that state knows how to follow plans.......question if too many
people stay gone.
What is the point of rebuilding N.O........so the looters and polititians
can have someone else to rob.
> IMHO, we have totally irresponsible idiots in Washington, except for
> lining certain pockets. With recovery expense of maybe 100-200 billion,
> lotsa pork coming.
> "A reasonable man must be ashamed of his government."- H.L Mencken
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| |
| Dale Farmer 2005-09-13, 2:23 pm |
|
Arnold Walker wrote:
[color=darkred]
> <barry@sme-online.com> wrote in message
> news:1126027611.309344.120710@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> 50 years ago...actually.
> Somehow Florida was hit by 4 hurricanes and in Katrina numerous other cities
> and state.
> And the mayor and governor was able to use their disaster plan,except N.O.
> mayor.
> No RTS,No schoolbuses,No nothing for special need folks with public
> transportation.
> Inspite of plan to do so,before major hurricane hits gale force winds.
> If you lived in a soup bowl and had reason to believe what
> happened.....would happen.
> Is that any surprise.......
> Levees that the mayor and past politicain promised to fix for 50 years.
> But didn't....hence knew about and included in plan.That plan the mayor
> chose not to use,when
> the chips were down.Then ran to cover his rear before anybody noticed.
> Like Bush and the Louisiana Governor said we need a fix,not politics...
> But that is not what is happening,and folks are noticing it. And talking
> about staying in the state they ran to.
> At least that state knows how to follow plans.......question if too many
> people stay gone.
> What is the point of rebuilding N.O........so the looters and polititians
> can have someone else to rob.
Best thing to do with new orleans right now is to pump the water out,
evacuate all the people, bodies, and anything left salvageable, then get the
dredges working and build up the whole area inside the city about fifty
feet with the spoil. Then build everything from scratch.
--Dale
| |
| Dave Hinz 2005-09-13, 2:23 pm |
| On Tue, 06 Sep 2005 18:40:04 GMT, Dale Farmer <dale@cybercom.net> wrote:
>
> Best thing to do with new orleans right now is to pump the water out,
> evacuate all the people, bodies, and anything left salvageable, then get the
> dredges working and build up the whole area inside the city about fifty
> feet with the spoil. Then build everything from scratch.
You're absolutely right, Dale. Added benefit is that you can add all
the infrastructure _before_ adding the soil to the top. Lay it all
down, backfill, and then (and only then) start rebuilding the
structures.
Won't happen though; they'll keep living in a bowl below sea level, and
they'll whine about it next time the obvious happens.
| |
| Arnold Walker 2005-09-13, 2:23 pm |
| An insite to Louisiana politics.....folks talk about the levvees,but did you
know that Lousiana Constition
requires a different board for Each dike and levee.
So,if any thing was to happen to the NO network, 4 to 6 boards would have
come to on agreement on what that was.
"Dave Hinz" <DaveHinz@spamcop.net> wrote in message
news:3o669nF4esqcU2@individual.net...
> On Tue, 06 Sep 2005 18:40:04 GMT, Dale Farmer <dale@cybercom.net> wrote:
out,[color=darkred]
the[color=darkred]
>
> You're absolutely right, Dale. Added benefit is that you can add all
> the infrastructure _before_ adding the soil to the top. Lay it all
> down, backfill, and then (and only then) start rebuilding the
> structures.
>
> Won't happen though; they'll keep living in a bowl below sea level, and
> they'll whine about it next time the obvious happens.
>
>
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| |
| Pete C. 2005-09-13, 2:23 pm |
| mike mcXXXXXXXX wrote:
>
<snipped>
> raise the gas price by
> destabilizing the middle east oil supply so oil investors get rich, and
When exactly has the middle east ever been stable? How about in just the
last 200 years?
Pete C.
| |
| Dave Hinz 2005-09-13, 2:23 pm |
| On Tue, 06 Sep 2005 19:32:15 GMT, Pete C. <aux3.DOH.4@snet.net> wrote:
> mike mcXXXXXXXX wrote:
>
><snipped>
>
>
> When exactly has the middle east ever been stable? How about in just the
> last 200 years?
I was _going_ to say "until they found oil there", but that's not even
true. The troubles go back until at least, literally, biblical times.
Today, you have basically a tribal culture, that lucked into having a
natural resource that lots of people want. It's the classic "Nouveau
riche" problem, ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nouveau_riche ), combined
with a culture that hasn't evolved beyond a tribal "biggest dog gets the
bone" culture.
We're not going to fix their culture. The least-bad solution is to stop
buying their resource, and to keep them from impacting our interests in
the area. Once we don't need their oil, our interests in the area
become pretty low. Let's spend the money NOW on biofuels. Subsidize
the hell out of the research, let's get this stuff profitable and DO IT.
I'd rather pay the farmers than people who want to kill us.
| |
| mike mcwilliams 2005-09-13, 2:23 pm |
| Dave Hinz wrote:
>
>
>
> No, the President didn't sign Kyoto because it's just a foreign aid bill
> in disguise. The US _can't_ meet the standards without "buying credits
> from" undeveloped countries - in other words, it's extortion to get the
> US to give yet more money to people in countries which don't appreciate
> us. Bush is right in not signing it; Kyoto has _nothing_ to do with
> reducing pollution and everything to do with extortion.
>
You are wrong, overall greenhouse gas emissions have fallen in many of
the countries that signed on, yet have increased in the US and Canada.
Take a look at wind power in germany, or nuclear for that matter.
Ze germans seem to be doing fine, and other european countries have
successfully reduced emissions...
Kyoto was proposed because the totally voluntary recommendations at Rio
were basically ignored.
I'll tell you what extortion is... The price of gas in southern alberta
jumping by 20 cents a litre when US oil infrastructure is damaged by
hurricanes. Has nothing to do with the supply up here.
| |
| Dave Hinz 2005-09-13, 2:23 pm |
| On Tue, 06 Sep 2005 14:05:10 -0600, mike mcXXXXXXXX <michael.mcXXXXXXXX@drdc-rddc.gc.ca> wrote:
> Dave Hinz wrote:
[color=darkred]
> You are wrong, overall greenhouse gas emissions have fallen in many of
> the countries that signed on, yet have increased in the US and Canada.
Yes, but signing Kyoto wouldn't make the emissions decrease, it would
just make us pay for the rate that's happening anyway.
> Take a look at wind power in germany, or nuclear for that matter.
I'm very familiar with the benefits of wind and nuclear power. I think
it's a crime that we haven't built a nuclear plant in decades, and I'd
like to see much, much more use of wind power.
> Ze germans seem to be doing fine, and other european countries have
> successfully reduced emissions...
Germany just underwent reunification - East Germany was "low hanging
fruit" from an emissions standpoint.
> I'll tell you what extortion is... The price of gas in southern alberta
> jumping by 20 cents a litre when US oil infrastructure is damaged by
> hurricanes. Has nothing to do with the supply up here.
Take it up with your politicians. But wait - I suppose you blame Bush
for it somehow, right?
| |
| mike mcwilliams 2005-09-13, 2:23 pm |
| Dave Hinz wrote:
> On Tue, 06 Sep 2005 19:32:15 GMT, Pete C. <aux3.DOH.4@snet.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> I was _going_ to say "until they found oil there", but that's not even
> true. The troubles go back until at least, literally, biblical times.
> Today, you have basically a tribal culture, that lucked into having a
> natural resource that lots of people want. It's the classic "Nouveau
> riche" problem, ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nouveau_riche ), combined
> with a culture that hasn't evolved beyond a tribal "biggest dog gets the
> bone" culture.
>
> We're not going to fix their culture. The least-bad solution is to stop
> buying their resource, and to keep them from impacting our interests in
> the area. Once we don't need their oil, our interests in the area
> become pretty low. Let's spend the money NOW on biofuels. Subsidize
> the hell out of the research, let's get this stuff profitable and DO IT.
> I'd rather pay the farmers than people who want to kill us.
>
>
I strongly agree. Biotech methods are far enough along now to make progress
| |
| Tony Wesley 2005-09-13, 2:23 pm |
|
Dave Hinz wrote:
> The National Guard response was the governor's responsibility, not the
> President's.
The delay occurred in Washington.
The governor of New Mexico offer his National Guard troops on Sunday
and Blanco accepted. But the Pentagon sat on its XXX.
"New Mexico Gov. Bill Richardson offered Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Blanco
help from his state's National Guard last Sunday, the day before
Hurricane Katrina hit Louisiana. Blanco accepted, but paperwork needed
to get the troops en route didn't come from Washington until late
Thursday."
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050903..._national_guard
> And FEMA's job is to rebuild, not to evacuate.
The Department of Homeland Security has primary responsibility.
>From http://www.dhs.gov/dhspublic/theme_home2.jsp dated 01/06/2005
In the event of a terrorist attack, natural disaster or other
large-scale emergency, the Department of Homeland Security will assume
primary responsibility on March 1st for ensuring that emergency
response professionals are prepared for any situation. This will entail
providing a coordinated, comprehensive federal response to any
large-scale crisis and mounting a swift and effective recovery effort.
> If you're
> looking for a head to put on a platter, look no further than the La.
> Governor.
Certainly, blame lies there as well.
But we have a cabinet-level department, created in this administration.
Their responsibility is assume *primary responsibility* for ensuring
that emergency
response professionals are prepared for *any situation*.
| |
| Tony Wesley 2005-09-13, 2:23 pm |
|
Arnold Walker wrote:
> An insite to Louisiana politics.....folks talk about the levvees,but did you
> know that Lousiana Constition
> requires a different board for Each dike and levee.
Oh, really? Did you get this from the same source that said the Texas
Guard got to New Orleans before the Louisiana Guard??
http://senate.legis.state.la.us/Doc...vee%20Districts
PART III. LEVEE DISTRICTS
38. Levee Districts
Section 38.(A) Retention; Reorganization; Consolidation. Levee
districts as organized and constituted on January 1, 1974 shall
continue to exist, except that
(1) The legislature may provide by law for the consolidation,
division, or reorganization of existing levee districts or may create
new levee districts. However, the members of the board of commissioners
of a district heretofore or hereafter created shall be appointed or
elected from among residents of the district, as provided by law.
(2) A levee district whose flood control responsibilities are
limited to and which is situated entirely within one parish may be
consolidated and merged into such parish under the terms and conditions
and in the manner provided in Section 16 of this Article.
(B) Obligation of Contract Affirmed. No action taken under this
Section shall impair the obligation of outstanding bonded indebtedness
or of any other contract of a levee district.
| |
| Dave Hinz 2005-09-13, 2:23 pm |
| On 6 Sep 2005 16:45:40 -0700, Tony Wesley <tonywesley@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Dave Hinz wrote:
>
> The delay occurred in Washington.
In your biased opinion.
> The governor of New Mexico offer his National Guard troops on Sunday
> and Blanco accepted. But the Pentagon sat on its XXX.
Federal and state are not the same thing, and I think you know it. The
feds can't just send people in; the state has to ask for it.
>
> The Department of Homeland Security has primary responsibility.
> In the event of a terrorist attack, natural disaster or other
> large-scale emergency, the Department of Homeland Security will assume
> primary responsibility on March 1st for ensuring that emergency
> response professionals are prepared for any situation. This will entail
> providing a coordinated, comprehensive federal response to any
> large-scale crisis and mounting a swift and effective recovery effort.
Yes, as soon as they're ASKED TO COME IN BY THE GOVERNOR.
[color=darkred]
> Certainly, blame lies there as well.
> But we have a cabinet-level department, created in this administration.
> Their responsibility is assume *primary responsibility* for ensuring
> that emergency
Once allowed in. You do understand that the feds can't just barge in
unasked, right? You do understand why that is, right? Seriously, do
you understand the difference and the reasons for it?
| |
| Derek Broughton 2005-09-13, 2:23 pm |
| Dave Hinz wrote:
>
> Once allowed in. You do understand that the feds can't just barge in
> unasked, right? You do understand why that is, right? Seriously, do
> you understand the difference and the reasons for it?
You know, Dave & I probably don't agree on anything political (I am proud to
have been called a "knee-jerk bleeding heart liberal") but even I
understand that in America it would be tantamount to declaring another war
between the states for the feds to send troops - be they federal or
National Guard - before the governor asked for them.
--
derek
| |
|
| mike mcXXXXXXXX wrote:
> You are wrong, overall greenhouse gas emissions have fallen in many
> of the countries that signed on, yet have increased in the US and
> Canada. Take a look at wind power in germany, or nuclear for that
> matter.
>
> Ze germans seem to be doing fine, and other european countries have
> successfully reduced emissions...
Greenhouse gases may have fallen, don't have info about that, but the
German economy is totally in the tank. News reports show that
Schroeder is still far behind in the polls in his upcoming reelection
race primarily due to the hideous economy, unemployment, etc. So how
well are they doing?
Herb
| |
|
| Herb wrote:
> mike mcXXXXXXXX wrote:
>
>
>
> Greenhouse gases may have fallen, don't have info about that, but the
> German economy is totally in the tank. News reports show that
> Schroeder is still far behind in the polls in his upcoming reelection
> race primarily due to the hideous economy, unemployment, etc. So how
> well are they doing?
>
> Herb
| |
| mike mcwilliams 2005-09-13, 2:24 pm |
| Herb wrote:
>
> Greenhouse gases may have fallen, don't have info about that, but the
> German economy is totally in the tank. News reports show that
> Schroeder is still far behind in the polls in his upcoming reelection
> race primarily due to the hideous economy, unemployment, etc. So how
> well are they doing?
>
Herb, you may have missed the point. A slowdown in economic growth is
not the end of life as we know it.It is simply the end of 5% more
profits per year each year. Business will complain and the right wing
will manipulate. This is nothing new. People ought to live a lot more
simply (aka efficiently) and worry a lot less about the GDP.
| |
| Dave Hinz 2005-09-13, 2:24 pm |
| On Wed, 07 Sep 2005 12:56:45 -0300, Derek Broughton <news@pointerstop.ca> wrote:
> Dave Hinz wrote:
>
>
> You know, Dave & I probably don't agree on anything political (I am proud to
> have been called a "knee-jerk bleeding heart liberal") but even I
> understand that in America it would be tantamount to declaring another war
> between the states for the feds to send troops - be they federal or
> National Guard - before the governor asked for them.
Thank you, Derek.
Dave
| |
| NapalmHeart 2005-09-13, 2:24 pm |
|
"mike mcXXXXXXXX" <michael.mcXXXXXXXX@drdc-rddc.gc.ca> wrote in message
news:1126037111.329731@coyote.suffield.drdc-rddc.gc.ca...
> Dave Hinz wrote:
> jumping by 20 cents a litre when US oil infrastructure is damaged by
> hurricanes. Has nothing to do with the supply up here.
In the world economy, yes it does.
Ken
| |
| Derek Broughton 2005-09-13, 2:24 pm |
| Dave Hinz wrote:
> On Wed, 07 Sep 2005 12:56:45 -0300, Derek Broughton <news@pointerstop.ca>
> wrote:
>
> Thank you, Derek.
>
Omigod! It's the end of the world ... :-)
--
derek
| |
| Derek Broughton 2005-09-13, 2:24 pm |
| NapalmHeart wrote:
>
> "mike mcXXXXXXXX" <michael.mcXXXXXXXX@drdc-rddc.gc.ca> wrote in message
> news:1126037111.329731@coyote.suffield.drdc-rddc.gc.ca...
>
> In the world economy, yes it does.
Yes, and no (of course). (and on the other side of Canada, it jumped 40
cents, so count yourself lucky!).
If the US isn't processing crude in Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana, the
world _crude_ demand is down - how is it that crude prices have increased?
It's certainly not supply and demand.
However, what seems to be happening, is that Canadian refiners have decided
to ship their product South - which might be a right neighborly gesture if
they weren't gouging both Canadians _and_ Americans for that refined
product. They're not only taking advantage of it with inflated prices for
refined gasoline, but they should be getting a break on the crude price -
because they have no capacity to increase demand for crude.
--
derek
| |
| Tony Wesley 2005-09-13, 2:24 pm |
| Derek Broughton wrote:
> Dave Hinz wrote:
>
>
> You know, Dave & I probably don't agree on anything political (I am proud=
to
> have been called a "knee-jerk bleeding heart liberal") but even I
> understand that in America it would be tantamount to declaring another war
> between the states for the feds to send troops - be they federal or
> National Guard - before the governor asked for them.
That's true. But as I noted in response to Dave, the Department of
Defense says the request came Saturday before the hurricane.
http://www.dod.mil/transcripts/2005...50901-3843.html
Q To what extent is this additional assistance you've outlined today a
response to a request from the state governors in Louisiana,
Mississippi? And if so, can you tell us when specifically you got that
request?
GEN. HONOR=C9: Yes, sir. The process starts, sir, in this
particular event, with a request Friday of last week, as the
approximate date for defense coordinating offices to be established in
Florida, Alabama, Mississippi and Louisiana. Those were established in
those states over Friday and Saturday.
Q Sir, I'm specifically interested in how soon after
the hurricane hit and the extent of the damage became known did the
governors request additional assistance above and beyond what they had
requested before?
GEN. HONOR=C9: Sir, that started to happen on Saturday, as
the hurricane was approaching, and was executed with the movement of my
headquarters on Sunday to Mississippi, where we established a joint --
JTF headquarters here in Mississippi with a forward cell of the 5th
United States Army in Louisiana. And on Sunday we established
JTF-Katrina, with myself as the task force commander.
Summarizing:
"The process starts... with a request Friday of last week"
"[h]ow soon ... did the governors request additional assistance[?]"
"Sir, that started to happen on Saturday, as the hurricane was
approaching"
[apologies in advance if there's a duplicate post. Google says there
was a server error on my first attempt.]
| |
| Tony Wesley 2005-09-13, 2:24 pm |
| Dave Hinz wrote:
> On 6 Sep 2005 16:45:40 -0700, Tony Wesley <tonywesley@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> In your biased opinion.
Not at all. As widely reported and acknowledged by the Pentagon.
You just snipped the evidence. Your failed attempt to deceive is
apparent by looking at my comments here:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt....080a85cb325?dm=
ode=3Dsource
And the portions you omit in your responds here:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt....73fe862f643?dm=
ode=3Dsource
>
> Federal and state are not the same thing, and I think you know it.
One state cannot send its national guard units to another state without
federal approval. The request from Louisiana came the weekend before
the storm. Too bad the Pentagon didn't grant the request until
Thursday, in the case of the New Mexico guard.
Here's another source:
http://www.leadingthecharge.com/sto...ws-0069166.html
In New Mexico, Gov. Bill Richardson said he authorized National Guard
troops to leave for New Orleans early last week, but paperwork delayed
their departure for days.
> The
> feds can't just send people in; the state has to ask for it.
And the state asked. According to the DoD, Saturday before the
hurricane.
http://www.dod.mil/transcripts/2005...50901-3843.html
Q Sir, I'm specifically interested in how soon after
the hurricane hit and the extent of the damage became known did the
governors request additional assistance above and beyond what they had
requested before?
GEN. HONOR=C9: Sir, that started to happen on Saturday, as
the hurricane was approaching, and was executed with the movement of my
headquarters on Sunday to Mississippi, where we established a joint --
JTF headquarters here in Mississippi with a forward cell of the 5th
United States Army in Louisiana. And on Sunday we established
JTF-Katrina, with myself as the task force commander.
>
>
> Yes, as soon as they're ASKED TO COME IN BY THE GOVERNOR.
They were asked to come in before the hurricane hit.
http://gov.louisiana.gov/Press_Rele...il.asp?id=3D976
August 27, 2005
The President
The White House
Washington, D. C.
Through:
Regional Director
FEMA Region VI
800 North Loop 288
Denton, Texas 76209
Dear Mr. President:
Under the provisions of Section 501 (a) of the Robert T. Stafford
Disaster Relief and Emergency Assistance Act, 42 U.S.C. =A7=A7 5121-5206
(Stafford Act), and implemented by 44 CFR =A7 206.35, I request that you
declare an emergency for the State of Louisiana due to Hurricane
Katrina for the time period beginning August 26, 2005, and continuing.
[...]
Pursuant to 44 CFR =A7 206.35, I have determined that this incident is
of such severity and magnitude that effective response is beyond the
capabilities of the State and affected local governments, and that
supplementary Federal assistance is necessary to save lives, protect
property, public health, and safety, or to lessen or avert the threat
of a disaster.
Regarding the regular military, they had to wait until the President
finally decided to do something.
Sean Kelly of the US Northern Command told BBC this:
"NorthCom started planning before the storm even hit. We were ready for
the storm when it hit Florida because, as you remember, it crossed the
bottom part of Florida, and then we were plaining, you know, once it
was pointed towards the Gulf Coast. So what we did was we activated
what we call defense coordinating officers to work with the state to
say okay, what do you think you'll need, and we set up staging bases
that could be started. We had the USS Baton sailing almost behind the
hurricane so that after the hurricane made landfall it's search and
rescue helicopters would be available almost immediately. So we had
things ready. The only caveat is, we have to wait until the President
authorizes us to do so. The laws of the United States say that the
military can't just act in this fashion, we have to wait for the
President to give us permission."
> Once allowed in. You do understand that the feds can't just barge in
> unasked, right? You do understand why that is, right? Seriously, do
> you understand the difference and the reasons for it?
But they were asked. On Saturday before the hurricane hit.
| |
| barry@sme-online.com 2005-09-13, 2:24 pm |
| Are you the teflon patrol or something? Thought-police?
If you don't mind, I'll make up my own mind- maybe different from you.
Your arguments are specious at best. Were you open-minded, you might be
amazed at discussions of federal budgetary problems with NOLA levees on
website of USACE, NOLA Division. You know all about that already, of
course.
Exploiting tragedy? BS. Concerned that anything such happen again.
The truth will out.
TTFN,
J
| |
| Dave Hinz 2005-09-13, 2:24 pm |
| On 8 Sep 2005 09:15:30 -0700, barry@sme-online.com <barry@sme-online.com> wrote:
> Are you the teflon patrol or something? Thought-police?
Um, Barry? Who you talking to, buddy?
| |
| mike mcwilliams 2005-09-13, 2:24 pm |
| NapalmHeart wrote:
> "mike mcXXXXXXXX" <michael.mcXXXXXXXX@drdc-rddc.gc.ca> wrote in message
> news:1126037111.329731@coyote.suffield.drdc-rddc.gc.ca...
>
>
>
> In the world economy, yes it does.
>
> Ken
>
>
The world economy is corporate speak for sticking a stick up the average
consumers rectum, and anyone who backs the current investment/profits as
bottom line religion believes that popping out one of this hallowed
corporate/religious terms absolves the owners who are taking advantage
of natural disasters for unjustified price gouging of any responsibility.
One industry in southern alberta (the insurance industry) was forced by
the government to cut rates because they were basically raping
consumers. At first the govt just asked them to lower rates, then only
one company complied, and they were forced to step in and reduce the
exorbitantly high rates.
Canada has had the track record of intervention into price gouging, and
a recent poll suggests that close to 50% of the population wants the
energy industry nationalized... there are reasons for this.
There may be no hell, but if there was, the section for heartless
capitalists would feature far worse punishments than that for the
perpetually physically violent.
| |
| NapalmHeart 2005-09-13, 2:25 pm |
|
"mike mcXXXXXXXX" <michael.mcXXXXXXXX@drdc-rddc.gc.ca> wrote in message
news:1126213874.536347@coyote.suffield.drdc-rddc.gc.ca...
> NapalmHeart wrote:
> The world economy is corporate speak for sticking a stick up the average
> consumers rectum, and anyone who backs the current investment/profits as
> bottom line religion believes that popping out one of this hallowed
> corporate/religious terms absolves the owners who are taking advantage of
> natural disasters for unjustified price gouging of any responsibility.
>
> One industry in southern alberta (the insurance industry) was forced by
> the government to cut rates because they were basically raping consumers.
> At first the govt just asked them to lower rates, then only one company
> complied, and they were forced to step in and reduce the exorbitantly high
> rates.
>
> Canada has had the track record of intervention into price gouging, and a
> recent poll suggests that close to 50% of the population wants the energy
> industry nationalized... there are reasons for this.
>
> There may be no hell, but if there was, the section for heartless
> capitalists would feature far worse punishments than that for the
> perpetually physically violent.
The point I was making is simple. The conditions in one part of the world
has impact on the cost of commodities around the world. The choice is not
unbridled capitalism or total regulation. I'm not for either socialism or
capitalism in their pure forms.
| |
| Arnold Walker 2005-09-13, 7:21 pm |
|
<barry@sme-online.com> wrote in message
news:1126196130.069023.175650@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> Are you the teflon patrol or something? Thought-police?
>
> If you don't mind, I'll make up my own mind- maybe different from you.
>
> Your arguments are specious at best. Were you open-minded, you might be
> amazed at discussions of federal budgetary problems with NOLA levees on
> website of USACE, NOLA Division. You know all about that already, of
> course.
>
> Exploiting tragedy? BS. Concerned that anything such happen again.
> The truth will out.
>
> TTFN,
> J
And that New Orlean was going to fix thier levvee about 20years ago .
Only to be sued by an eco group ....worried about the impact on the wetlands
that stronger levees would have.
Or that Amtrak....a federal government agency offered to deliver a special
train.
To carry off all the folks unable to leave the New Orleans,To arrive a week
before the storm,hit NO.
The mayor turned Amtrak down.....
The Red Cross was ready with supplies in hand for the Superdome.....the
mayor refused aid because he
wanted to stave the people out.
Sometimes fact is stranger than fiction....
----== Posted via droptable.com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.droptable.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----
| |
| Dave Hinz 2005-09-13, 7:21 pm |
| On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 16:43:18 -0500, Arnold Walker <arnoldwalker@consolidated.net> wrote:
>
> And that New Orlean was going to fix thier levvee about 20years ago .
> Only to be sued by an eco group ....worried about the impact on the wetlands
> that stronger levees would have.
Clearly W's fault.
> Or that Amtrak....a federal government agency offered to deliver a special
> train.
Also clearly W's fault.
> To carry off all the folks unable to leave the New Orleans,To arrive a week
> before the storm,hit NO.
> The mayor turned Amtrak down.....
Yes, that also must be W's fault. Somehow.
> The Red Cross was ready with supplies in hand for the Superdome.....the
> mayor refused aid because he
> wanted to stave the people out.
See previous statements. Come on - you can't go blaming these "leaders"
for their mistakes, when W is clearly, somehow, to blame.
> Sometimes fact is stranger than fiction....
Indeed.
| |
| Arnold Walker 2005-09-13, 7:21 pm |
|
<barry@sme-online.com> wrote in message
news:1126196130.069023.175650@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> Are you the teflon patrol or something? Thought-police?
>
> If you don't mind, I'll make up my own mind- maybe different from you.
>
> Your arguments are specious at best. Were you open-minded, you might be
> amazed at discussions of federal budgetary problems with NOLA levees on
> website of USACE, NOLA Division. You know all about that already, of
> course.
>
> Exploiting tragedy? BS. Concerned that anything such happen again.
> The truth will out.
>
> TTFN,
> J
More fact is stranger than fiction.....
1/3 of the New Orlean police bugged out ,when the chips were down.
An old folks home has a 100? bedridden patients drown,but none of the
employee were hurt.
40 more patients die in a flooded New Orlean hospital ,but the hospital has
no idea of how they died.....
once agian none of the employees were hurt.
Hell,in other states I seen health care employees fired over bed sores,much
less what is described in NO
health care.
Maybe we need a couple of movie ducumentaries about NO and La.They have the
makings of an some interesting movies.
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| |
| Derek Broughton 2005-09-14, 10:21 am |
| Arnold Walker wrote:
> More fact is stranger than fiction.....
The problem is that, so often, the "facts" are on the Internet
....
> An old folks home has a 100? bedridden patients drown,but none of the
> employee were hurt.
34, if it was the one for which the operators were charged with homicide
today. http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/nation/3353384
> 40 more patients die in a flooded New Orlean hospital ,but the hospital
> has no idea of how they died.....
> once agian none of the employees were hurt.
Simply googling tells you both _how_ & why the hospital would have "no
idea". No hospital is going to tell you "how they died" in a situation
like this until autopsies have been done.
> Hell,in other states I seen health care employees fired over bed
> sores, much less what is described in NO health care.
And health care workers will be fired (how many jobs are there to go back
to, anyway?). Some will even be convicted of murder, manslaughter and
negligence.
One of these stories is about negligence of the worst kind, one is about
doctors & nurses doing their best in outrageous situations.
In neither case can I condemn anyone who in the end saved themselves when
they couldn't save anyone else. Nobody has a _duty_ to die for their
fellow man.
--
derek
| |
| R.H. Allen 2005-09-14, 6:21 pm |
| Derek Broughton wrote:
> Dave Hinz wrote:
>
>
>
>
> You know, Dave & I probably don't agree on anything political (I am proud to
> have been called a "knee-jerk bleeding heart liberal") but even I
> understand that in America it would be tantamount to declaring another war
> between the states for the feds to send troops - be they federal or
> National Guard - before the governor asked for them.
Actually, the Insurrection Act allows the federal government to do
*exactly* that. I believe it was enacted during the Civil War, but it
was used liberally during the civil rights movement when the federal
government forcibly integrated schools in the south, among other things.
It hasn't been invoked over the objections of a state governor since
then, though it was invoked at the *request* of a state governor in
1992. At any rate, since it's now clear that Louisiana's governor
requested help prior to the hurricane, it's really just a point of
information....
|
|
|
|
|