|
Home > Archive > Alternative Power sources > September 2005 > 600 VDC Locomotive Power for Business
You are viewing an archived Text-only version of the thread.
To view this thread in it's original format and/or if you want to reply to
this thread please [click here]
| Author |
600 VDC Locomotive Power for Business
|
|
| Bret Ludwig 2005-09-03, 8:21 pm |
| As most of you know there is a huge genset at the core of every
locomotive. In fact a loco is really a genset with convenient wheels to
be rolled up to any facility with a rail spur. Short of a motor
generator, though, is there a commercial system that a large building
owner close to rails could use so if power were needed a locomotive
could be rolled up and its main propulsion system tapped? Almost all
use a 600 volt DC system.
A loco is a bit big for a house....but for a small enough town even it
could supply power.
| |
| nospam.clare.nce@sny.der.on.ca 2005-09-03, 11:21 pm |
| On 3 Sep 2005 15:45:45 -0700, "Bret Ludwig" <bretldwig@yahoo.com>
wrote:
> As most of you know there is a huge genset at the core of every
>locomotive. In fact a loco is really a genset with convenient wheels to
>be rolled up to any facility with a rail spur. Short of a motor
>generator, though, is there a commercial system that a large building
>owner close to rails could use so if power were needed a locomotive
>could be rolled up and its main propulsion system tapped? Almost all
>use a 600 volt DC system.
>
> A loco is a bit big for a house....but for a small enough town even it
>could supply power.
When the ice-storm hit Eastern Canada several years back, several
Locos were pressed into service to power small towns / sections of
cities. They must have been AC because they tied them to the main
distribution system
| |
| SQLit 2005-09-03, 11:21 pm |
|
"Bret Ludwig" <bretldwig@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1125787545.044338.97700@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> As most of you know there is a huge genset at the core of every
> locomotive. In fact a loco is really a genset with convenient wheels to
> be rolled up to any facility with a rail spur. Short of a motor
> generator, though, is there a commercial system that a large building
> owner close to rails could use so if power were needed a locomotive
> could be rolled up and its main propulsion system tapped? Almost all
> use a 600 volt DC system.
>
> A loco is a bit big for a house....but for a small enough town even it
> could supply power.
Cat, Cummins, MultiQuip, Aggreko, and others all offer wheeled solutions
from 20 kw to over 1 million kw. Some of these units are almost silent
when running. I can not imagine living near a rail head with a locomotive
running to provide power.
I know of several remote locations in Arizona that are powered by semi-truck
mounted 750 kw gen sets made by Cat. Cat is a large player in the prime
mover market.
Your concept is good but there are a lot of places with no rail access.
Planning for such a connection is pretty expensive. The Phone company and
some other places I know of use 100-400 amp cannon plug connections for
emergency or "house" power. When extra is needed they roll up a gen-set and
connect away. There is one building that is used for small concerts here.
They planned ahead for additional power and air conditioning for shows.
Diesel power production is some of the most expensive that you can produce.
Even if you can get large quantities of fuel without road use taxes.
| |
| Arnold Walker 2005-09-04, 6:21 am |
| This may sound odd but AC generator on DC traction motors.
2 with newer ones being upgraded to 3MW.(Dash9)
Small switch engines used at lumber yards and large warehouses are 1MW.
Many folks don't think about power rolling past them at crossing.With 5 to9
Dash9's
dragging 1 to 3 miles of train behind it.
<nospam.clare.nce@sny.der.on.ca> wrote in message
news:u2kkh118enepa30ppupropkfl40saohapr@4ax.com...
> On 3 Sep 2005 15:45:45 -0700, "Bret Ludwig" <bretldwig@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> When the ice-storm hit Eastern Canada several years back, several
> Locos were pressed into service to power small towns / sections of
> cities. They must have been AC because they tied them to the main
> distribution system
----== Posted via droptable.com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.droptable.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----
| |
|
| > Cat, Cummins, MultiQuip, Aggreko, and others all offer wheeled
> solutions from 20 kw to over 1 million kw. Some of these units are
> almost silent when running. I can not imagine living near a rail
> head with a locomotive running to provide power.
>
> I know of several remote locations in Arizona that are powered by
> semi-truck mounted 750 kw gen sets made by Cat. Cat is a large
> player in the prime mover market.
>
> Your concept is good but there are a lot of places with no rail
> access. Planning for such a connection is pretty expensive. The
> Phone company and some other places I know of use 100-400 amp cannon
> plug connections for emergency or "house" power. When extra is
> needed they roll up a gen-set and connect away. There is one
> building that is used for small concerts here. They planned ahead
> for additional power and air conditioning for shows. Diesel power
> production is some of the most expensive that you can produce. Even
> if you can get large quantities of fuel without road use taxes.
When my boat pulled in to Chania on Crete, they supplied us with shore
power from a trailer rig. since they use 50 cycle AC in most of
Europe, it wasn't compatible with the 60 Hz electrical system on the
submarine. This trailer mounted diesel rig supplied us with ample
power to meet minimum needs. It's doable, but is expensive.
Herb
| |
| fcrumpler@cityofsunrise.org 2005-09-04, 2:21 pm |
| As it happens, there is a locomotive engine for sale on E-Bay right
now!
Very heavy, but a real conversation piece.
| |
| Gordon Reeder 2005-09-05, 2:21 am |
| "Bret Ludwig" <bretldwig@yahoo.com> wrote in news:1125787545.044338.97700
@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
> As most of you know there is a huge genset at the core of every
> locomotive. In fact a loco is really a genset with convenient wheels to
> be rolled up to any facility with a rail spur. Short of a motor
> generator, though, is there a commercial system that a large building
> owner close to rails could use so if power were needed a locomotive
> could be rolled up and its main propulsion system tapped? Almost all
> use a 600 volt DC system.
>
> A loco is a bit big for a house....but for a small enough town even it
> could supply power.
>
I believe that the 600VDC is the voltage delivered to the
traction motors. The electicity is generated by an alternator.
AFWIW several models of modern locos have the capabilty to
deliver emergency 60 Hz power. It's not used much that I know
of. I have heard of locos ocasionaly pressed into service to
power a shelter in times of disaster or used to power the railroad's
facilities durring loss of grid power.
--
Just my $0.02 worth. Hope it helps
Gordon Reeder
greeder
at: myself.com
Hey EVERYBODY!
Unity means let's try to meet each other halfway
| |
| barry@sme-online.com 2005-09-13, 2:23 pm |
| Passenger locomotives currently in use generate power for the rest of
the train as 60Hz ac in the USA. As a guess, less than 750 MW (~1000
hp).
Many passenger & freight units now have their prime-mover running an
alternator, whose ac output is rectified and fed to inverter which
outputs variable frequency & voltage ac.
Others might be able to point to instances of alternators having their
output rectified and fed to dc motors.
The folks along the Gulf Coast would have to wait a bit on power coming
in by rail, from what the railbeds looked like on tv.
HTH,
J
| |
| Derek Broughton 2005-09-13, 2:23 pm |
| barry@sme-online.com wrote:
> Passenger locomotives currently in use generate power for the rest of
> the train as 60Hz ac in the USA. As a guess, less than 750 MW (~1000
> hp).
Small error in precision there - 750W ~= 1HP. Therefore, 750MW ~= 1 Million
HP. Seeing as how 750MW would do to power a small city, I guess you meant
750KW, anyway.
--
derek
| |
| Anthony Matonak 2005-09-13, 2:23 pm |
| Derek Broughton wrote:
> barry@sme-online.com wrote:
>
>
> Small error in precision there - 750W ~= 1HP. Therefore, 750MW ~= 1 Million
> HP. Seeing as how 750MW would do to power a small city, I guess you meant
> 750KW, anyway.
http://www.trains.com/Content/Dynam...03/080jnkyi.asp
This article seems to indicate that most trains run around 3000 hp.
Used to generate electricity only, this would make for some (3000 *.746)
2200 kW or 2.2 MW. Since an average home uses around 1kW this would
mean it could supply around 2200 homes, more or less.
I do know there are a variety of 6000 hp locomotives out there and at
least a handful of 8000 and 10000 hp versions, though I don't think
these last are too common.
Anthony
| |
| Ignoramus25850 2005-09-13, 2:23 pm |
| On Tue, 06 Sep 2005 17:32:38 -0700, Anthony Matonak <anthonym40@nothing.like.comcast.net> wrote:
> Derek Broughton wrote:
>
> http://www.trains.com/Content/Dynam...03/080jnkyi.asp
> This article seems to indicate that most trains run around 3000 hp.
> Used to generate electricity only, this would make for some (3000 *.746)
> 2200 kW or 2.2 MW. Since an average home uses around 1kW this would
> mean it could supply around 2200 homes, more or less.
that would not apply to hot summer days though...
i
| |
| Gordon Reeder 2005-09-13, 2:23 pm |
| Anthony Matonak <anthonym40@nothing.like.comcast.net> wrote in
news:WYedneH-B_e1qIPeRVn-3Q@comcast.com:
> Derek Broughton wrote:
>
> http://www.trains.com/Content/Dynam...03/080jnkyi.asp
> This article seems to indicate that most trains run around 3000 hp.
> Used to generate electricity only, this would make for some (3000
> *.746) 2200 kW or 2.2 MW. Since an average home uses around 1kW this
> would mean it could supply around 2200 homes, more or less.
>
> I do know there are a variety of 6000 hp locomotives out there and at
> least a handful of 8000 and 10000 hp versions, though I don't think
> these last are too common.
>
> Anthony
>
EMD SD-70MAC, GE AC4400-ACW are 4000 hp locos (more or less)
Both AC and DC drive versions are produced as there are some
railroads (most notably the Norfolk Southern) that prefer a
DC drive loco. There are higher powered locos but they are
not as popular (the GE AC6000 and the EMD SD80MAC and SD90MAC)
In any case the desiel engine turns an alternator to produce
AC electricity.
The Amtrak F40PH used the prime mover and the main alternator to
produce HEP (Head End Power) for the passenger cars, but the
new genisis series has a separate genset for that purpose.
--
Just my $0.02 worth. Hope it helps
Gordon Reeder
greeder
at: myself.com
Hey EVERYBODY!
Unity means let's try to meet each other halfway
| |
| Arnold Walker 2005-09-13, 2:24 pm |
|
"Anthony Matonak" <anthonym40@nothing.like.comcast.net> wrote in message
news:WYedneH-B_e1qIPeRVn-3Q@comcast.com...
> Derek Broughton wrote:
Million[color=darkred]
meant[color=darkred]
>
> http://www.trains.com/Content/Dynam...03/080jnkyi.asp
> This article seems to indicate that most trains run around 3000 hp.
> Used to generate electricity only, this would make for some (3000 *.746)
> 2200 kW or 2.2 MW. Since an average home uses around 1kW this would
> mean it could supply around 2200 homes, more or less.
>
> I do know there are a variety of 6000 hp locomotives out there and at
> least a handful of 8000 and 10000 hp versions, though I don't think
> these last are too common.
>
> Anthony
The mainline locomotive you see on Uniion,CFX,orBurlington frieght trains
are dash9 at4500hp, with the newest version running 6000hp(clean air diesel
runs same displacement on fewer cylinders among other things).
To some degree the power is unlimited ,since the loco units are made to
remote control off the lead engine.Enables one engineeer to operate every
engine in a consist(train group).So in theory a major city blacks out
.....you would the figure out the amount of power required .Then roll in that
many locomotives hooked in parallel.
>
>
----== Posted via droptable.com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.droptable.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----
| |
| Jim Baber 2005-09-13, 2:24 pm |
| Jim Baber wrote:
Anthony Matonak wrote:
> Derek Broughton wrote:
>
>
>
> http://www.trains.com/Content/Dynam...03/080jnkyi.asp
> This article seems to indicate that most trains run around 3000 hp.
> Used to generate electricity only, this would make for some (3000 *.746)
> 2200 kW or 2.2 MW. ..............
Since I use 69.55 kWh a day, 90% between 8 AM and midnight, I figure my
own average hourly use is around 4 kW. I admit to being an energy
junkie living in a place hot as h***, but still I wonder where this 1 kW
average home comes from and what is in it.
I'll bet the use is greater than 1 kW average in most homes today.
People use more appliances, TVs, tools, and computers than they did just
a few years ago. Maybe someone out there in usenetdom has access to a
utility's real load numbers as produced by the their residential
service. - If a utility just added up the total months kW billed to
their residential customers, divided that by the number of days in the
sample period, and divided that by the number of customers * 24, they
would have it. I would bet you money they do know, and they probably
use that number in determining their rates for their applications to the
various regulatory agencies for setting new rates! These averages
might even be available from the regulatory bodies under the freedom of
information laws.
> ..........................Since an average home uses around 1kW this
> would
> mean it could supply around 2200 homes, more or less.
>
> I do know there are a variety of 6000 hp locomotives out there and at
> least a handful of 8000 and 10000 hp versions, though I don't think
> these last are too common.
>
> Anthony
>
| |
| Solar Flare 2005-09-13, 2:24 pm |
| probably 24 kWh / 24 hours per day.
From the know nothing, to the know nothing, statistics.
"Jim Baber" <jim@baber.org> wrote in message
news:LZOdnekr5uZZXb3eRVn-uA@comcast.com...
> Jim Baber wrote:
>
> Anthony Matonak wrote:
>
>
> Since I use 69.55 kWh a day, 90% between 8 AM and midnight, I figure my
> own average hourly use is around 4 kW. I admit to being an energy
> junkie living in a place hot as h***, but still I wonder where this 1 kW
> average home comes from and what is in it.
>
> I'll bet the use is greater than 1 kW average in most homes today.
> People use more appliances, TVs, tools, and computers than they did just
> a few years ago. Maybe someone out there in usenetdom has access to a
> utility's real load numbers as produced by the their residential
> service. - If a utility just added up the total months kW billed to
> their residential customers, divided that by the number of days in the
> sample period, and divided that by the number of customers * 24, they
> would have it. I would bet you money they do know, and they probably
> use that number in determining their rates for their applications to the
> various regulatory agencies for setting new rates! These averages
> might even be available from the regulatory bodies under the freedom of
> information laws.
>
>
| |
| Derek Broughton 2005-09-13, 2:24 pm |
| Jim Baber wrote:
> Jim Baber wrote:
>
> Anthony Matonak wrote:
>
>
> Since I use 69.55 kWh a day, 90% between 8 AM and midnight, I figure my
> own average hourly use is around 4 kW. I admit to being an energy
> junkie living in a place hot as h***, but still I wonder where this 1 kW
> average home comes from and what is in it.
>
> I'll bet the use is greater than 1 kW average in most homes today.
I don't see a 1kW figure in anything that you just quoted. My working
figures have always been around 10kWh/day for the average home, exclusive
of air conditioning - I haven't a clue where I picked that up, so it's
suspect (it is, however, close to my usage when I was on-grid). I guess
that's the same magnitude as a continuous 1kW usage, but almost every home
will peak at well over 1kW.
My current energy budget is 1.5kWh/day.
> If a utility just added up the total months kW billed to
Utilities never total kW.
> their residential customers, divided that by the number of days in the
> sample period, and divided that by the number of customers * 24, they
> would have it.
So you really mean kWh. But they'd never do that calculation to come up
with average kW, because all that's meaningful to them is _peak_ kW.
[color=darkred]
OK, there's that 1kW number. Meaningless. The average home probably
_averages_ in that range - but they'd quickly burn out that locomotive when
they all started cooking supper, or turned on the AC.
--
derek
| |
|
| Saw a news item, "Camp Greyhound" a temporary jail made out of a bus
terminal in New Orleans is powered by a diesel/electric locomotive.
"Bret Ludwig" <bretldwig@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1125787545.044338.97700@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> As most of you know there is a huge genset at the core of every
> locomotive. In fact a loco is really a genset with convenient wheels to
> be rolled up to any facility with a rail spur. Short of a motor
> generator, though, is there a commercial system that a large building
> owner close to rails could use so if power were needed a locomotive
> could be rolled up and its main propulsion system tapped? Almost all
> use a 600 volt DC system.
>
> A loco is a bit big for a house....but for a small enough town even it
> could supply power.
>
| |
| Gordon Reeder 2005-09-14, 7:21 pm |
| "EXT" <etonks@sunstormADD-DOT-COM> wrote in news:43275b84$0$98361
$892e0abb@auth.newsreader.octanews.com:
> Saw a news item, "Camp Greyhound" a temporary jail made out of a bus
> terminal in New Orleans is powered by a diesel/electric locomotive.
>
>
> "Bret Ludwig" <bretldwig@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1125787545.044338.97700@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
to[color=darkred]
it[color=darkred]
>
>
>
FYI: Big thread on this over on misc.transport.rail.americas
--
Just my $0.02 worth. Hope it helps
Gordon Reeder
greeder
at: myself.com
Hey EVERYBODY!
Unity means let's try to meet each other halfway
|
|
|
|
|