Alternative Power sources - unconventional stovepipe run to save more heat?

Author

unconventional stovepipe run to save more heat?

coyotefred@gmail.com

2005-09-13, 2:24 pm

I'm going to be putting in a woodstove for winter heating, and I'd like
to get a little more heat out of it by extending the run of uninsulated
stovepipe in the room before I tie it into an existing chimney. I've
seen a few photos of this idea, for example:

http://www.motherearthnews.com/libr...ent___Fireplace

Aside from the odd appearance, there are obviously concerns about draft
and creosote buildup. I don't think the draft would be a big problem,
since the chimney tops out at my roof peak (2-story house) in a
relatively windy part of the country. And it seems like much of the
creosote would collect into the bottom "curve" of the run which could
be removed for cleaning.

Has anyone out there experimented with this sort of idea or have
thoughts on how it might work/not work?

Coyotefred

JohnM

2005-09-13, 2:24 pm

coyotefred@gmail.com wrote:
> I'm going to be putting in a woodstove for winter heating, and I'd like
> to get a little more heat out of it by extending the run of uninsulated
> stovepipe in the room before I tie it into an existing chimney. I've
> seen a few photos of this idea, for example:
>
> http://www.motherearthnews.com/libr...ent___Fireplace
>
> Aside from the odd appearance, there are obviously concerns about draft
> and creosote buildup. I don't think the draft would be a big problem,
> since the chimney tops out at my roof peak (2-story house) in a
> relatively windy part of the country. And it seems like much of the
> creosote would collect into the bottom "curve" of the run which could
> be removed for cleaning.
>
> Has anyone out there experimented with this sort of idea or have
> thoughts on how it might work/not work?
>
> Coyotefred
>

If you've got a good stove and you keeping a good hot fire you shouldn't
have to worry about creosote, and a long run of flue pipe or a Magic
Heat is a great way to get better efficiency from your stove. Get an old
Magic heat, the one with about ten tubes in it, there's a new one that
has four tubes, you'd be better off with a long run of flue pipe..

Looking at the site you referred to.. I've found Mother Earth News to be
something that's probably great for hippies, but the "Far Out!" factor
dwindles rapidly as the temperature goes below zero.. This is classic: "
According to its builders, the fireplace will — when loaded with five
pounds of wood and lighted — give an instant dose of heat to the room
through its stovepipe." No matter the efficiency, what good is five
pounds of wood heat?

If you make a run of pipe down toward the floor and then back up you'll
probably get a much better heat exchange.. it might be a little harder
to get a good draft if the house is cold but a couple of sheets of
newspaper wadded and blazed as you're starting the fire should take care
of that. If you get the pipe closer to the floor (and into the colder
air) it'll naturally heat the air more efficiently. The more the pipe
changes direction the more heat transfer you'll get for a given length too..

John

RicodJour

2005-09-13, 2:24 pm

Terry Collins

2005-09-13, 2:24 pm

coyotefred@gmail.com wrote:

> Has anyone out there experimented with this sort of idea or have
> thoughts on how it might work/not work?

what is the purpose of the convoluted run?
If it is just to increase the length of pipe in the room to provide more
heat, how about just adding fins to the pipe?

Edwin Pawlowski

2005-09-13, 2:24 pm

"Terry Collins" <terryc.spam@woa.com.au> wrote in message
news:43213e8b$0$13321$61c65585@un-2park-reader-01.sydney.pipenetworks.com.au...
> coyotefred@gmail.com wrote:
>
>
> what is the purpose of the convoluted run?
> If it is just to increase the length of pipe in the room to provide more
> heat, how about just adding fins to the pipe?

Fins would work better, but what do you use for the fins? I've never seen
them sold and it may be a hassle to cut them from sheet aluminum.

nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu

2005-09-13, 2:24 pm

coyotefred@gmail.com wrote:

> I'm going to be putting in a woodstove for winter heating, and I'd like
> to get a little more heat out of it by extending the run of uninsulated
> stovepipe in the room before I tie it into an existing chimney... there
> are obviously concerns about draft and creosote buildup.

Draft might come from a 240 V muffin fan running on 120 V over an
adjustable hole in the door. Dry creosote buildup may be unlikely
in a chimney with condensation, which can add 15% to efficiency.

To cool a 6" pipe inside an 8" pipe, you might use a 10" fan in a 10" to 8"
reducer below an 8" T near the point where the 6" pipe leaves the house to
blow room air back towards the stove through the space between the pipes,
with a CO monitor in the room.

Nick

Terry Collins

2005-09-13, 2:24 pm

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
> "Terry Collins" <terryc.spam@woa.com.au> wrote in message
> news:43213e8b$0$13321$61c65585@un-2park-reader-01.sydney.pipenetworks.com.au...
>
>
>
> Fins would work better, but what do you use for the fins? I've never seen
> them sold and it may be a hassle to cut them from sheet aluminum.

Err, any machine shop with a guillotine and sheet bender should be able
to convert a sheet of aluminium or gal(?) or steel (?) to strips with a
90 corner.

The question is whether to punch and drill the rivet holes before or
after. Blind rivets of course, or Tek screws if you like the look.

Nottingham

2005-09-13, 2:24 pm

I'd suggest using standard double walled pipe with the shortest / most
direct vertical route possible. I'm interested in finding out how they came
up with 92.6% efficiency - doubtfully using any accepted UL methods.

Problems with the convoluted stove pipe will be:
1. Your building/fire inspector won't pass it
2. Your insurance wouldn't likely give you coverage for your house
3. Major creosote build up due to bad flow
4. PITA for cleaning

I'd spend my money on a good, efficient, modern stove. I've found deep ones
better at burning than wide ones. Go double walled. If you want more heat
then use a fan to blow air around the stove.

<coyotefred@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1126243332.441880.153180@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
>
> I'm going to be putting in a woodstove for winter heating, and I'd like
> to get a little more heat out of it by extending the run of uninsulated
> stovepipe in the room before I tie it into an existing chimney. I've
> seen a few photos of this idea, for example:
>
>
http://www.motherearthnews.com/libr.../Build_Your_Own
__90__Efficient___Fireplace
>
> Aside from the odd appearance, there are obviously concerns about draft
> and creosote buildup. I don't think the draft would be a big problem,
> since the chimney tops out at my roof peak (2-story house) in a
> relatively windy part of the country. And it seems like much of the
> creosote would collect into the bottom "curve" of the run which could
> be removed for cleaning.
>
> Has anyone out there experimented with this sort of idea or have
> thoughts on how it might work/not work?
>
> Coyotefred
>

Amun

2005-09-13, 2:24 pm

<coyotefred@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1126243332.441880.153180@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
>
> I'm going to be putting in a woodstove for winter heating, and I'd like
> to get a little more heat out of it by extending the run of uninsulated
> stovepipe in the room before I tie it into an existing chimney. I've
> seen a few photos of this idea, for example:
>
>
http://www.motherearthnews.com/libr...ent___Fireplace
>
> Aside from the odd appearance, there are obviously concerns about draft
> and creosote buildup. I don't think the draft would be a big problem,
> since the chimney tops out at my roof peak (2-story house) in a
> relatively windy part of the country. And it seems like much of the
> creosote would collect into the bottom "curve" of the run which could
> be removed for cleaning.
>
> Has anyone out there experimented with this sort of idea or have
> thoughts on how it might work/not work?
>
> Coyotefred
>

Sorry I would have replied quicker but I was too busy laughing once I saw
the webpage.

While something like this might be a conversation piece in Arizona, on those
cooler nights.

I wouldn't suggest relying on it in Minnesota, or anywhere else north of
Tennessee.

And it does CLEARLY say this is a fireplace not a woodstove, so the chimney
is designed for that

First issue is creosote buildup.
How are you going to know WHEN it's time to clean it ?
Without pulling it apart every week.
That could get very messy, and there is that "fire hazard" thing, if a
chimney fire starts how are you going to put it out ?

Fireplaces and woodstoves are two different things.

In a sealed woodstove the idea is to cut the rate of combustion by holding
back air that would otherwise go up the chimney.
Raising the actual temperature in the firebox to allow complete combustion
of the fuel.

This usually means a woodstove chimney is much cooler than a fireplace so
condensation and creosote, and draft is more of an issue.

But since this is only an opinion that you can ignore.

my vote is "don't do it".

AMUN

Ecnerwal

2005-09-13, 2:24 pm

In article <1126243332.441880.153180@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
coyotefred@gmail.com wrote:

> Has anyone out there experimented with this sort of idea or have
> thoughts on how it might work/not work?

When the first chimney fire strikes, you'll have a lovely time. This
sort of foolishness is a bad way to "save money" when all the costs are
included. Put the woodstove in with a nice normal stovepipe and make
sure it passes inspection (which this sort of crap won't).

Inspections of this sort are about "not burning down your rather
expensive house" and "not gassing your family to death", rather than
"trying to prevent you from squeezing 25 cents worth of heat out of your
woodpile", but believe what you like. If you read MEN without a large
block of salt handy (a grain just won't do it) you may teach yourself
some expensive lessons you're not ready to learn any other way...

--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by

Stretch

2005-09-13, 2:24 pm

Some wood stoves introduce air into the flue leaving the stove to burn
off creosote in a box just before the chimney. Note that creosote is a
volotile that condenses out of the flue gas. If you are condensing
water you will condense creosote also. Nick is correct about the
efficiency increase, however there are problems with a wood burning
appliance. Condensate in the flue is slightly acidic, the flue pipe
should be designed to handle it. If you condense the water out of the
flue, it will be too cool to establish a good draft. You will need a
draft inducer. DO NOT USE a muffin fan. Tjernlund makes them for gas
burners, see if they make one that would work with wood.

Your idea is interesting, but fraught with peril, as the side effects
of what you propose could be dangerous. Buying a good quality air
tight wood stove will increase your efficiency safely without having to
jury rig a lot of questionable doodads that may not work as desired.
Good luck.

Stretch

Harry Chickpea

2005-09-13, 2:24 pm

coyotefred@gmail.com wrote:

>
>I'm going to be putting in a woodstove for winter heating, and I'd like
>to get a little more heat out of it by extending the run of uninsulated
>stovepipe in the room before I tie it into an existing chimney. I've
>seen a few photos of this idea, for example:
>
>http://www.motherearthnews.com/libr...ent___Fireplace
>
>Aside from the odd appearance, there are obviously concerns about draft
>and creosote buildup. I don't think the draft would be a big problem,
>since the chimney tops out at my roof peak (2-story house) in a
>relatively windy part of the country. And it seems like much of the
>creosote would collect into the bottom "curve" of the run which could
>be removed for cleaning.
>
>Has anyone out there experimented with this sort of idea or have
>thoughts on how it might work/not work?
>
>Coyotefred

That has got to be one of the stupidist ideas I've seen TMEN show, and
they've shown a lot of stupid ideas.

The convolutions are ridiculous. Back when huge grange halls were
heated with little more than a tiny pot-belly stove, the stove
sometimes had a straight pipe leading to a T, which then led to two 90
degree elbows, which led to two vertical pipes, which led to two more
elbows and another T, merging into a single pipe going through the
roof or wall. Note that these scavangers were designed for use with
coal, which provides more heat and less creosote. In any event, that
double stack is a tried and workable design. Convolutions that
attempt to make hot smoke go down may be fine for hippie hookahs, but
they don't work in home heating, especially if you are trying to start
the stove on a mild day where there isn't a strong darft.

The design that TMEN shows is guaranteed to be a PITA. Additionally,
even if it worked properly, you would get a quick blast furnace type
of heat every time you fired up the stove. That gets old fast,
usually after about the third firing of the stove.

The other part of the article (the stove itself) is equally stupid.
It doesn't address that refractory cement can crack, especially if
struck. Without at least an embedded chicken wire or hardwood mesh, I
wouldn't trust such a stove to not fall apart at precisely the wrong
time.

The small amount of fuel the stove can accept means that it requires
constant feeding, probably on the order of once an hour or even once
every twenty minutes on a cold windy night in an older house. There
are only so many BTUs in a pound of wood, no matter how you cut (or
burn) it.

The design doesn't even qualify as a nice idea poorly executed. The
fireplace/stoves that they attempted to emulate had one major plus,
lots of thermal mass. They removed the thermal mass and kept the bad
parts of the design.

barry@sme-online.com

2005-09-13, 2:24 pm

Couple of issues:
1. To have natural draft, you need temp diff for some vertical run.
2. When firebox temp below about 1000 deg F, unburnt volatiles escape,
to condense in cool areas (from top, down).
3. Air drawn into device affects overall efficiency big-time, since
it's heated. (So the 90% claim sets off my BS-alarm.)
Not to mention biggies about Fire Marshall, insurance, etc.

To go for extreme efficiency, as others have discovered, you first need
complete combustion: temp, air-fuel ratio, mixing. Insulated firebox
with controlled draft help a lot. Then you can transfer heat as
possible. For really extreme efficiency UMO Prof. Hill used forced
draft.

Using available items, avoiding electrical requirements, I'd suggest:
1. EPA-approved non-catalyst woodstove of output and quality to suit
you.
2. 6-8 feet of single-wall black smokepipe, with all sections angled up
or straight up.
3. Fuel that is as dry as you can make it, fed in such a manner that it
does not quench flames if possible.
4. Sacrificing efficiency on occasion by allowing extra airflow, on
startup to heat flue, and on loading fuel.

Taking it a small step further, I use a few small pancake blowers to
stimulate airflow over hottest part of stove, and past lowest part of
pipe.

Installation should be done so as to meet all codes, obviously.

Not a conversation-piece like the one in the article, but it can be
made to work very well. YMWV.

HTH,
J

Harry Chickpea

2005-09-13, 2:24 pm

hchickpeaREMOVEME@hotmail.com (Harry Chickpea) wrote:

>The other part of the article (the stove itself) is equally stupid.
>It doesn't address that refractory cement can crack, especially if
>struck. Without at least an embedded chicken wire or hardwood mesh, I
>wouldn't trust such a stove to not fall apart at precisely the wrong
>time.

Uhh, make that hardware cloth and not hardwood. :-)

coyotefred@gmail.com

2005-09-13, 2:24 pm

I agree that a modern, airtight, etc. woodstove would be a nice
alternative, but I don't have a couple of grand sitting around to buy
one

I'm not quite sure who some of these stove companies think
their market is, but in my neck of the woods I don't know too many
folks with that kind of money available. I'd like to see a few more
decent quality stove options for average folks and their paychecks...

In any case, I like fin idea. This would seem to avoid all of the
potential problems several folks have raised with a convoluted
stovepipe run, but still allow you to get some decent heat transfer...

Bill

2005-09-13, 2:24 pm

I am installing a wood stove myself. Initially I thought I could just
remove my natural gas stove and replace it with a wood stove. This vents
into an existing brick chimney.

I learned that my homeowners insurance would not cover me for a fire if my
wood stove was not installed to code, inspected and passed, and also
inspected by my insurance company.

So I could lose *everything* if I just stuck a wood stove in my house!

I am going the permit route which requires all sorts of stuff, but for your
specific situation, read the following which is from the Selkirk chimney
manufacturer's frequently asked questions link below.

"Are there any limitations to the use of elbows?

Yes. The UL 103 Standard, our instructions, and codes prohibit any offset
creating an incline greater than 30° from vertical. The use of a single
15°, a pair of 15° 's (to get a specific angle between 0 - 30 degrees) or a
single 30° is allowed (with the same combination to return to vertical
following the offset). If there is a long inclined run, (longer than 4
ft.), it needs to be supported at least every 48". Also an offset needs to
be supported at the first section above the upper elbow(s) where the system
returns to the vertical orientation."

http://www.selkirkinc.com/faq/index2.html#18d

someone@somewhere.org

2005-09-13, 2:24 pm

In misc.consumers.house coyotefred@gmail.com wrote:
> I agree that a modern, airtight, etc. woodstove would be a nice
> alternative, but I don't have a couple of grand sitting around to buy
> one

I'm not quite sure who some of these stove companies think
> their market is, but in my neck of the woods I don't know too many
> folks with that kind of money available. I'd like to see a few more
> decent quality stove options for average folks and their paychecks...

Have you checked out used stoves on ebay and craigslist? Used stoves
are more $$ this time of year than any other, but still a lot less
than new. Some of them are barely used and in excellent condition.

I personally view a high end wood stove as a long term investment.
Spend $2500+- on a stove, pipe, hearth, chainsaw, and maul today
to you can reduce your heating bill by $1000+- per year for the
next 20 years. Also you can sell a high end stove as "decorating
the living room" to a wife. :-)

> In any case, I like fin idea. This would seem to avoid all of the
> potential problems several folks have raised with a convoluted
> stovepipe run, but still allow you to get some decent heat transfer...

A much safer idea than the crazy pipes you were considering.

Harry Chickpea

2005-09-13, 2:24 pm

coyotefred@gmail.com wrote:

>I agree that a modern, airtight, etc. woodstove would be a nice
>alternative, but I don't have a couple of grand sitting around to buy
>one

Bill

2005-09-13, 2:24 pm

"Harry Chickpea" wrote in message
>
> If appearance isn't a big issue:
> <http://www.electricrailroad.com/Stove/Stove.html>
>

I need to go see my building inspector to ask some questions...

I printed out a copy of the above stove. I think I'll show him the picture
and tell him I have my stove in. Then ask if he thinks my installation is
ok. Maybe do the same for my insurance guy! (They will get a kick out of
this.)

FYI - I have had to get an EPA certified wood stove, install a hearth pad
which has an R-value minimum of 1.5, have 14 inches space from stove to
wall (depends on stove model), have 18 inches of hearth pad in front of
stove, 8 inches of hearth pad on sides of stove, and a U.L. cert. stainless
steel chimney system installed to code.

Nottingham

2005-09-13, 2:24 pm

Hey I hear you on the price issue. Either hurt now or hurt all the time
later. If you have a cheap stove your heat goes up the chimney and you are
spending your time/money loading the stove with wood.

Keep an eye out at liquidation places etc. I've seen brand new $2K stoves
selling for $800.

<coyotefred@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1126280333.686098.93270@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> I agree that a modern, airtight, etc. woodstove would be a nice
> alternative, but I don't have a couple of grand sitting around to buy
> one

Edwin Pawlowski

2005-09-13, 2:24 pm

"Terry Collins" <terryc.spam@woa.com.au> wrote in message
>
> Err, any machine shop with a guillotine and sheet bender should be able to
> convert a sheet of aluminium or gal(?) or steel (?) to strips with a 90
> corner.
>
> The question is whether to punch and drill the rivet holes before or
> after. Blind rivets of course, or Tek screws if you like the look.

The real question is the cost. ; Of course a metal shop can fabricate them,
but is the cost going to be something the average homeowner can easily
afford?

nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu

2005-09-13, 2:24 pm

Stretch <sixfoot7@sccoast.net> wrote:

>...Condensate in the flue is slightly acidic, the flue pipe
>should be designed to handle it.

Or periodically replaced... 3 5' lengths of galvanized pipe should do.

>If you condense the water out of the flue, it will be too cool
>to establish a good draft. You will need a draft inducer.
>DO NOT USE a muffin fan.

Nah. Use a $5 muffin fan. This goes on the OUTSIDE of the door.

>Your idea is interesting, but fraught with peril, as
>the side effects of what you propose could be dangerous.

La di dah. Life is dangerous. Use a CO detector or two.

Nick

JohnM

2005-09-13, 2:25 pm

Harry Chickpea wrote:
> coyotefred@gmail.com wrote:
>
>
>
>
> That has got to be one of the stupidist ideas I've seen TMEN show, and
> they've shown a lot of stupid ideas.
>
> The convolutions are ridiculous. Back when huge grange halls were
> heated with little more than a tiny pot-belly stove, the stove
> sometimes had a straight pipe leading to a T, which then led to two 90
> degree elbows, which led to two vertical pipes, which led to two more
> elbows and another T, merging into a single pipe going through the
> roof or wall. Note that these scavangers were designed for use with
> coal, which provides more heat and less creosote. In any event, that
> double stack is a tried and workable design. Convolutions that
> attempt to make hot smoke go down may be fine for hippie hookahs, but
> they don't work in home heating, especially if you are trying to start
> the stove on a mild day where there isn't a strong darft.

I disagree. You can make the flue gas go down and back up, as I posted
before you just have to give it some quick heat to establish a good
draft while you light the fire. Old furnaces with a heat exchanger that
took the flue gas from the top of the furnace and sent it to the chimney
down low were common, I've got one in the basement and it works very
well. Three feet from the back of the appliance the pipe is about 200F,
pretty good efficiency..

The method of extracting more heat from the pipe that you mention was a
common one in the old days, but it requires more vertical room between
the top of the stove and the ceiling than many houses have today to work
well.

I fully agree with your opinion of the MEN stove, a massive waste of
time and resources.

John
>
> The design that TMEN shows is guaranteed to be a PITA. Additionally,
> even if it worked properly, you would get a quick blast furnace type
> of heat every time you fired up the stove. That gets old fast,
> usually after about the third firing of the stove.
>
> The other part of the article (the stove itself) is equally stupid.
> It doesn't address that refractory cement can crack, especially if
> struck. Without at least an embedded chicken wire or hardwood mesh, I
> wouldn't trust such a stove to not fall apart at precisely the wrong
> time.
>
> The small amount of fuel the stove can accept means that it requires
> constant feeding, probably on the order of once an hour or even once
> every twenty minutes on a cold windy night in an older house. There
> are only so many BTUs in a pound of wood, no matter how you cut (or
> burn) it.
>
> The design doesn't even qualify as a nice idea poorly executed. The
> fireplace/stoves that they attempted to emulate had one major plus,
> lots of thermal mass. They removed the thermal mass and kept the bad
> parts of the design.
>

JohnM

2005-09-13, 2:25 pm

nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu wrote:
> coyotefred@gmail.com wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Draft might come from a 240 V muffin fan running on 120 V over an
> adjustable hole in the door. Dry creosote buildup may be unlikely
> in a chimney with condensation, which can add 15% to efficiency.

Do you mean condensing moisture? It'd sure add to the efficiency, but
what do you do with the stinky moisture.. if you leave it in the pipe
and expect it to "evaporate" then the efficiency gain is lost in the
latent heat (which is the gain realized by condensing the moisture in
the first place).. you could have a trap for it to flow to, but then you
gotta deal with it..

John

>
> To cool a 6" pipe inside an 8" pipe, you might use a 10" fan in a 10" to 8"
> reducer below an 8" T near the point where the 6" pipe leaves the house to
> blow room air back towards the stove through the space between the pipes,
> with a CO monitor in the room.
>
> Nick
>

JohnM

2005-09-13, 2:25 pm

barry@sme-online.com wrote:
> Couple of issues:
> 1. To have natural draft, you need temp diff for some vertical run.
> 2. When firebox temp below about 1000 deg F, unburnt volatiles escape,
> to condense in cool areas (from top, down).

Barry has the clue.. it takes considerable temperatures to break
creosote down to where it'll burn. It's a very heavy hydrocarbon, what
you see on utility poles, and it won't burn at lower temperatures.
That's why the square stoves leave so much creosote in a chimney, that's
why people need the insulated pipes to keep creosote accumulation down-
but they send vast amounts of heat up that pipe along with the lost heat
the creosote would have made had it been burned.

Burn the fuel efficiently and entirely at high temperatures in the
stove, take the heat from the flue pipe.. that's what works.

John

> 3. Air drawn into device affects overall efficiency big-time, since
> it's heated. (So the 90% claim sets off my BS-alarm.)
> Not to mention biggies about Fire Marshall, insurance, etc.
>
> To go for extreme efficiency, as others have discovered, you first need
> complete combustion: temp, air-fuel ratio, mixing. Insulated firebox
> with controlled draft help a lot. Then you can transfer heat as
> possible. For really extreme efficiency UMO Prof. Hill used forced
> draft.
>
> Using available items, avoiding electrical requirements, I'd suggest:
> 1. EPA-approved non-catalyst woodstove of output and quality to suit
> you.
> 2. 6-8 feet of single-wall black smokepipe, with all sections angled up
> or straight up.
> 3. Fuel that is as dry as you can make it, fed in such a manner that it
> does not quench flames if possible.
> 4. Sacrificing efficiency on occasion by allowing extra airflow, on
> startup to heat flue, and on loading fuel.
>
> Taking it a small step further, I use a few small pancake blowers to
> stimulate airflow over hottest part of stove, and past lowest part of
> pipe.
>
> Installation should be done so as to meet all codes, obviously.
>
> Not a conversation-piece like the one in the article, but it can be
> made to work very well. YMWV.
>
> HTH,
> J
>

Goedjn

2005-09-13, 2:25 pm

>Fins would work better, but what do you use for the fins? I've never seen
>them sold and it may be a hassle to cut them from sheet aluminum.

Copper flashing. Hook up some wires
and run some LEDs from the resulting thermocouple, while you're at it.
not enough to be useful, but interesting anyway.

You should also look into piping in combustion air, while you're
at it, so you don't have throw heated air from the room up the
chimney.

--Goedjn
>

Goedjn

2005-09-13, 2:25 pm

>
>Err, any machine shop with a guillotine and sheet bender should be able
>to convert a sheet of aluminium or gal(?) or steel (?) to strips with a
>90 corner.
>
>The question is whether to punch and drill the rivet holes before or
>after. Blind rivets of course, or Tek screws if you like the look.

Neither. Extend the bases past the fins, and hold them on with
giant hose-clamps.

zenboom

2005-09-13, 2:25 pm

"Edwin Pawlowski" <esp@snet.net> wrote in message
news:7vdUe.900$au2.340@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com...
>
> "Terry Collins" <terryc.spam@woa.com.au> wrote in message
>
news:43213e8b$0$13321$61c65585@un-2park-reader-01.sydney.pipenetworks.com.au
....
>
> Fins would work better, but what do you use for the fins? I've never seen
> them sold and it may be a hassle to cut them from sheet aluminum.
>

alu fins on a steel(?) flue?? how about broad, thin flat-bar tacked on one
edge, parallel to the run...

nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu

2005-09-13, 2:25 pm

JohnM <eaotis@cbpu.com> wrote:

>
>Do you mean condensing moisture?

Of course.

>...what do you do with the stinky moisture..

Let it drip into a plastic bucket.

Nick

Edwin Pawlowski

2005-09-13, 2:25 pm

"zenboom" <?signal.ds?@?bluebottle.com?> wrote in message
>
> alu fins on a steel(?) flue??

They use aluminum on copper baseboard. Very good heat transver

how about broad, thin flat-bar tacked on one
> edge, parallel to the run...

Could work. I was thinking of the typical fins on baseboard, but no reason
they could not be as you describe. Easier to fabricate and install.

Gio Medici

2005-09-13, 2:25 pm

coyotefred@gmail.com wrote:

>I agree that a modern, airtight, etc. woodstove would be a nice
>alternative, but I don't have a couple of grand sitting around to buy
>one

Anthony Matonak

2005-09-13, 2:25 pm

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
> "Terry Collins" <terryc.spam@woa.com.au> wrote in message
>
> Fins would work better, but what do you use for the fins? I've never seen
> them sold and it may be a hassle to cut them from sheet aluminum.

Perhaps beer cans could be used as a source of aluminum. A little
work with a tin snips should suffice.

Anthony

Stretch

2005-09-13, 2:25 pm

La di dah. Life is dangerous. Use a CO detector or two.

Nick

Yes Nick, if you live like that LIFE is dangerous. How about if I
nominate you for the Darwin award now so you can enjoy the award in the
short time you have left. Perhaps you should read the code section on
flues for wood burning appliances.

Stretch

PS, I once saw a guy use galvanized flue pipe on his wood stove when I
lived in Pennsylvania. He had ordered the stainless steel triple wall
that he needed, but it was slow in arriving. The galvanized stuff lost
the galvanized coating the first time he fired the stove, and the flue
ate through in less than a week. He was lucky he didn't burn his house
down. CO poisoning was the least of his worries.

Solar Flare

2005-09-13, 2:25 pm

$1K for shipping too.

"Nottingham" <mikeNOSPAMster.d2@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:QomdnRPh0YuYWrzeRVn-hw@golden.net...
> Hey I hear you on the price issue. Either hurt now or hurt all the time
> later. If you have a cheap stove your heat goes up the chimney and you
are
> spending your time/money loading the stove with wood.
>
> Keep an eye out at liquidation places etc. I've seen brand new $2K stoves
> selling for $800.
>
>
> <coyotefred@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1126280333.686098.93270@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
>

Solar Flare

2005-09-13, 2:25 pm

Ditto. You are playing with fire.

"Stretch" <sixfoot7@sccoast.net> wrote in message
news:1126317851.429250.317950@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> La di dah. Life is dangerous. Use a CO detector or two.
>
> Nick
>
>
>
> Yes Nick, if you live like that LIFE is dangerous. How about if I
> nominate you for the Darwin award now so you can enjoy the award in the
> short time you have left. Perhaps you should read the code section on
> flues for wood burning appliances.
>
> Stretch
>
>
> PS, I once saw a guy use galvanized flue pipe on his wood stove when I
> lived in Pennsylvania. He had ordered the stainless steel triple wall
> that he needed, but it was slow in arriving. The galvanized stuff lost
> the galvanized coating the first time he fired the stove, and the flue
> ate through in less than a week. He was lucky he didn't burn his house
> down. CO poisoning was the least of his worries.
>

JohnM

2005-09-13, 2:25 pm

nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu wrote:
> JohnM <eaotis@cbpu.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Of course.
>
>
>
>
> Let it drip into a plastic bucket.
>
> Nick
>

It'd work, and with some wood it'd certainly increase the efficiency in
a dramatic fashion. I don't believe it'd be much help with well-seasoned
hardwood, but with wet or oily woods (pine and walnut in particular)
it might really be worth the effort.

John

Christina Peterson

2005-09-13, 2:25 pm

OK, Coyote, what is it you want? That's the first thing you need to figure
out.

When my ex and I were in the Yukon on a mine claim, we had a very rough
house and a poor stove, and nothing to insure. I'm too embarrassed to tell
you how bad out heating system was. But it was cheap. And at that time,
that was our priority.

Now I live in a log cabin, with nice stuff that I want insurance on. I have
water only in a holding tank, so I couldn't even insure my place if I
claimed fire as a heat source -- other than for emergencies. Insurance
dictates that the stove be on a hearth, be a certain distance from walls,
have a certain kind of chimney, etc. That's going to have to be what you
ask yourself about first. Well, that and safety.

I haven't looked around at stoves for quite a while, and don't remember
names of specific products, but I remember little stoves of thin metal with
a lining. From Army Navy, I think. Those linings wear out, and I wouldn't
trust their safety, especially if you have to keep the box real hot.
Wouldn't trust anything but cast iron.

And of course, there's comfort. To me, that means the house is warm enough
and the fire lasts long enough that it's not necessary to get up to tend the
fire in the middle of the night. Our place has about 1000 sq ft, and is the
"trapper" style -- low pitched ceiling, and open floor plan (U shaped space
the guts of the house, like the bathroom, boiler, water pump, closets, etc),
so the stove and a little heat powered fan are plenty for us. Part of
keeping the fire going is getting a stove that's tight enough and also
controllable. Once again that means a decent cast iron stove.

And decent cast iron stoves cost. But they also last. As it happens, we
got ours new. Ordered it through our local wood stove store from Vermont
Casting, because that's what my husband wanted. I thought it was a little
frivolous, but am so glad we chose it. The store had other less expensive
stoves, and also had used reconditioned stoves from trade ins.

But there are other places to look too. Try junk shops, try Tradio or your
local equivalent, want ads, free ads, ask the old timers to ask other old
timers. Maybe estate sales or garage sales.

I agree with Janet. A good stove, properly and legally installed is an
important long term investment. The only way to go unless you REALLY have
nothing to lose.

Tina

<someone@somewhere.org> wrote in message
news:4hiUe.12463$Cc5.3815@lakeread06...
> In misc.consumers.house coyotefred@gmail.com wrote:
>
> Have you checked out used stoves on ebay and craigslist? Used stoves
> are more $$ this time of year than any other, but still a lot less
> than new. Some of them are barely used and in excellent condition.
>
> I personally view a high end wood stove as a long term investment.
> Spend $2500+- on a stove, pipe, hearth, chainsaw, and maul today
> to you can reduce your heating bill by $1000+- per year for the
> next 20 years. Also you can sell a high end stove as "decorating
> the living room" to a wife. :-)
>
>
> A much safer idea than the crazy pipes you were considering.

Bert Menkveld

2005-09-13, 2:25 pm

<coyotefred@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1126280333.686098.93270@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>I agree that a modern, airtight, etc. woodstove would be a nice
> alternative, but I don't have a couple of grand sitting around to buy
> one

nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu

2005-09-13, 2:25 pm

Stretch <sixfoot7@sccoast.net> wrote:

>Perhaps you should read the code section on flues for wood burning appliances.

Codes ensure safety, but they also ensure spending lots of money
and wasting energy. They show little understanding of heatflow.

Nick

Peter Huebner

2005-09-13, 2:25 pm

In article <43229f1b@news.acsalaska.net>, tinapetrsn@yahoo.com says...
>
> And decent cast iron stoves cost. But they also last. As it happens, we
> got ours new. Ordered it through our local wood stove store from Vermont
> Casting, because that's what my husband wanted. I thought it was a little
> frivolous, but am so glad we chose it. The store had other less expensive
> stoves, and also had used reconditioned stoves from trade ins.

CAN last - or you can get caught out like I was. My first cast iron
stove was great, it was Scottish I think 'Esse' brand, but it was a
cooker with so much hot water boiler around the firebox it never even
got the kitchen warm, never mind the rest of the house.
So I replaced it with a locally made one 'stainless chrome nickel cast
iron specially formulated' stove - slow combustion etc... after 4 years
the foundry that made it had been sold, the company who had bought them
up had been sold, and I was left with a stove that had a half inch open
crack all the way up and down one side that I could certainly not get
parts for any more. Cast can be tricky!

I now have a new stove <sigh> and it so happens it's 1/4 inch
boilerplate steel, welded. Performance is just as good as the cast
stove, and while the [ceramic baffles] inside have deteriorated in two
heating seasons, the steel is as good as new.

-Peter

--
=========================================
firstname dot lastname at gmail fullstop com

Nottingham

2005-09-13, 2:25 pm

I have both a vermont cast iron stove and a pacific fab. steel double walled
stove in our log cabin. Pacific is in the basement, vermont in the parlor.

The pacific is narrow and deep, burns all night on one load, throws tons of
heat, excellent reburn action on the gases. 100% consumption of wood, burns
front to back. It runs from October to April. My chimney is clean as a
whistle.

The vermont is wide and narrow, looks pretty, and is a POS when it comes to
heating, but looks really nice. It's also top/front load and you can make a
great pot of coffee on it. I fire it up a couple times a year or during
power failures in mid winter. Does a lousy job burning wood. It burns from
the middle to the sides. I have to keep feeding it like a baby chick. It
doesn't keep hot enough. But it looks pretty.

Previously in other houses I've had a cheap fab. steel stove and an
expensive cast iron elmira stive.

So far if I'd have to do it again I'd put my money down on another pacific.
No questions asked. Cheaper than the vermont/elmira and best performance so
far.

"Peter Huebner" <no.one@this.address> wrote in message
news:MPG.1d8d9c26ca0f102e98994e@news.nzl.ihugultra.co.nz...
> In article <43229f1b@news.acsalaska.net>, tinapetrsn@yahoo.com says...
we[color=darkred]
Vermont[color=darkred]
little[color=darkred]
expensive[color=darkred]
>
> CAN last - or you can get caught out like I was. My first cast iron
> stove was great, it was Scottish I think 'Esse' brand, but it was a
> cooker with so much hot water boiler around the firebox it never even
> got the kitchen warm, never mind the rest of the house.
> So I replaced it with a locally made one 'stainless chrome nickel cast
> iron specially formulated' stove - slow combustion etc... after 4 years
> the foundry that made it had been sold, the company who had bought them
> up had been sold, and I was left with a stove that had a half inch open
> crack all the way up and down one side that I could certainly not get
> parts for any more. Cast can be tricky!
>
> I now have a new stove <sigh> and it so happens it's 1/4 inch
> boilerplate steel, welded. Performance is just as good as the cast
> stove, and while the [ceramic baffles] inside have deteriorated in two
> heating seasons, the steel is as good as new.
>
> -Peter
>
> --
> =========================================
> firstname dot lastname at gmail fullstop com

Stretch

2005-09-13, 2:25 pm

So Nick,

You want to be rich and dead? Maybe you can get them to put a U-Haul
behind your hearse!

In my business, safety is very important. If I didn't follow code, I
coould get sued. Someone could get hurt, sick or die. That would be a
bad thing! If you don't care about ketting killed by your contraption,
make one operate like your post said. Then if you live till next year,
let us know how it worked. For me, I want both as much safety as
possible and as much efficiency as possible. I also like stuff to last
a long time. It is better for me AND my customers.

If a sheet metal flue needed replaced every two weeks, that would cost
my customer a lot more than he saved on energy. Especially if the wood
was free for the chopping, which it aften is.

I always consider safety very important, dead customers do me no good!

Besides, if you get someone killed. you can go to jail as negligent
homicide for a few years. How much research will you do in jail? I
know that would be a tough way for me to feed my family!

Stretch

Solar Flare

2005-09-13, 2:25 pm

No solar power in jail either....LOL (make it heavy so he'll listen once)

Safety first. The play with the toys under the safety rules. The rules and
laws are only there because of accidents. Previous experiences that millions
of people with combined intelligences much larger than your egos.

"Stretch" <sixfoot7@sccoast.net> wrote in message
news:1126368292.025636.182670@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> So Nick,
>
> You want to be rich and dead? Maybe you can get them to put a U-Haul
> behind your hearse!
>
> In my business, safety is very important. If I didn't follow code, I
> coould get sued. Someone could get hurt, sick or die. That would be a
> bad thing! If you don't care about ketting killed by your contraption,
> make one operate like your post said. Then if you live till next year,
> let us know how it worked. For me, I want both as much safety as
> possible and as much efficiency as possible. I also like stuff to last
> a long time. It is better for me AND my customers.
>
> If a sheet metal flue needed replaced every two weeks, that would cost
> my customer a lot more than he saved on energy. Especially if the wood
> was free for the chopping, which it aften is.
>
> I always consider safety very important, dead customers do me no good!
>
> Besides, if you get someone killed. you can go to jail as negligent
> homicide for a few years. How much research will you do in jail? I
> know that would be a tough way for me to feed my family!
>
>
> Stretch
>

nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu

2005-09-13, 2:25 pm

Stretch <sixfoot7@sccoast.net> wrote:

>In my business, safety is very important. If I didn't follow code, I
>coould get sued...

Gosh. But everyone isn't bound by your rules.
Many people use physics and common sense :-)

Nick

RicodJour

2005-09-13, 2:25 pm

nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu wrote:
> Stretch <sixfoot7@sccoast.net> wrote:
>
>
> Codes ensure safety, but they also ensure spending lots of money
> and wasting energy. They show little understanding of heatflow.

You are free to work to change the code. You are not free to tell
people to ignore code and compromise the safety of their homes. Some
people don't know you and might actually listen.

R

nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu

2005-09-13, 2:25 pm

RicodJour <ricodjour@worldemail.com> wrote:

[color=darkred]
>You are free to work to change the code. You are not free to tell
>people to ignore code and compromise the safety of their homes...

Wrong. It's a free country, with free speech, and some people are freer
than others and like to make their own decisions about their own lives.

Nick

Stretch

2005-09-13, 2:25 pm

Yes nick,

Physics and common sense say not to do it the Nick way. Codes are
generally rewritten when someone dies, so that no more have to die.
That is what common sense IS. One definition of insanity is doing
things the same way and expecting different results. The codes were
written because doing things your way got people killed in the past.
So you want to try it again and see if maybe they just get injured this
time?

Besides, the codes are not just my rules, they are everyones rules.
Except yours, that is. If someone told you not to stand under a steel
beam that was falling, your dying words would be "I disagree"

Discussing things like safety with you is a waste of time.

Stretch

Stretch

2005-09-13, 2:25 pm

Wrong. It's a free country, with free speech, and some people are freer

than others and like to make their own decisions about their own lives.

Nick

Yes Nick, you are free to tell people to do stupid stuff that can get
them killed. The question is why do you continue to do that. With
freedom comes responsibility, which you refuse to excersize. This is a
help type newsgroup and you seem to want to make it a hurt type
newsgroup. I wonder why. Is it because it is the only way you have to
feed your ego?

Stretch

Sheldon Harper

2005-09-13, 2:25 pm

Organization: Harper Stocks & Bonds
Message-ID: <Xns96CDDD96594AEsheldharp@63.223.5.248>
Followup-To: misc.rural,misc.survivalism
User-Agent: Xnews/5.04.25
X-Complaints-To: abuse@usenetserver.com
Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 22:46:59 -0400
Lines: 41
X-Trace: d647243239aa331e5efc607162
Xref: number1.nntp.dca.giganews.com misc.rural:207967 misc.survivalism:875544 misc.consumers.house:212953 alt.energy.homepower:116363 alt.home.repair:776007

nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu wrote in news:dfvdjh
$ota@acadia.ece.villanova.edu:

> Stretch <sixfoot7@sccoast.net> wrote:
>
>
> Gosh. But everyone isn't bound by your rules.

More than not, actually. "Bound" is not a very crisp or clearcut
word.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mores
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folkways_%28sociology%29

> Many people use physics and common sense :-)

"physics-the study of matter and energy"

http://www.artsconnected.org/artsne...vocabulary.html

Ok, what you're really talking about is the application:

"(n) technology, engineering (the practical application of science
to commerce or industry)"

http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=engineering

So people don't use physics which is a study, they engineer heating
devices. I don't think you can actually call the device portrayed on
the web page very well engineered. It appears to me to be more of an
artsy-fartsy piece designed to sell an article but having little to
no practical value.

If you want artsy stuff watch Mag Ruffman's PBS series. At least she
doesn't promote building unsafe things likely to kill you.

http://www.homeenvy.com/mag_ruffman.html

RicodJour

2005-09-13, 2:25 pm

nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu wrote:
> RicodJour <ricodjour@worldemail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Wrong. It's a free country, with free speech, and some people are freer
> than others and like to make their own decisions about their own lives.

Wave that freedom flag. That should help your case and rally the
masses behind you. Yeah, right.

When you're 15 years old freedom means the ability to do anything you
want without being told what to do. When you're an adult (look it up)
freedom means the ability to do what you should without being prevented
from doing it.

If you want to modify your house, compromise your safety, and kill your
family - knock yourself out. I refer to people such as yourself as the
self-cleaning gene pool. If we're lucky, the house will burn down and
some unsuspecting sap won't be saddled with your "improvements" in the
name of efficiency.

R

Solar Flare

2005-09-13, 2:25 pm

Most people can tell Nick is quite eccentric by his posting style and would
still follow their own logical thinking anyway.

If one cannot think past the gobble-dee-gook for one's own safety then one
will eventually harm oneself anyway. It won't take Nick or anybody else here
to do that for people "in over their heads".

I don't like Nicks posting style or attitude sometimes but he still is a
very thinking, inquisitive and interesting guy and adds a lot to these
groups in ideas.

I feel it is enough for others to slip in a safety reminder when one of us
forgets or violates the laws/rules with advise. The flames aren't necessary.
Give the readers soem credit for a few brains.

"Stretch" <sixfoot7@sccoast.net> wrote in message
news:1126402495.649042.47090@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Wrong. It's a free country, with free speech, and some people are freer
>
> than others and like to make their own decisions about their own lives.
>
>
> Nick
>
>
> Yes Nick, you are free to tell people to do stupid stuff that can get
> them killed. The question is why do you continue to do that. With
> freedom comes responsibility, which you refuse to excersize. This is a
> help type newsgroup and you seem to want to make it a hurt type
> newsgroup. I wonder why. Is it because it is the only way you have to
> feed your ego?
>
> Stretch
>

nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu

2005-09-13, 2:25 pm

Stretch <sixfoot7@sccoast.net> wrote:

>Physics and common sense say not to do it the Nick way...

You don't seem to know much about physics. Nor common sense?
Gas stoves and pellet stoves use counterflow chimneys...

>Codes are generally rewritten when someone dies...

Codes are often rewritten when manufacturers want to make money.

>Discussing things like safety with you is a waste of time.

Then stop.

Nick

dances_with_barkadas@yahoo.com

2005-09-13, 2:25 pm

>You are free to work to change the code. You are not free to tell
>people to ignore code and compromise the safety of their homes...

So file a complaint with the Internet Speech Police.

Nick is a great resource for learning basic concepts and for bringing
to Usenet, many excellent under-publicized efficient schemes. We also
can praise the fact that he doesn't claim authorship of other people's
ideas.

As in all of life, it's buyer beware about the details.

When all is said and done, Nick never tries to sell any bad products.
Which puts him a step ahead of a significant fraction of the commercial
marketplace.

Nick doesn't try to present connect-the-dot solutions. In point of
fact, his presentations are often VERY obscure and require a lot of
study.

So there isn't really any danger that Joe Sixpack is gonna suffocate
his own family with CO2 emissions based on anything Nick has ever
written.

nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu

2005-09-13, 2:25 pm

<dances_with_barkadas@yahoo.com> wrote:

>...there isn't really any danger that Joe Sixpack is gonna suffocate
>his own family with CO2 emissions based on anything Nick has ever written.

Carbon monoxide is more of a danger, but very remote, IMO, given
2 CO detectors. One of my 2 Nighthawks has battery backup.

Nick

Stretch

2005-09-13, 2:25 pm

Are by chance Nicks significant other that you love him so much?

Dances wrote:
When all is said and done, Nick never tries to sell any bad products.
Which puts him a step ahead of a significant fraction of the commercial

marketplace.

The humidex exhaust fan is a bad idea that nick promotes along with the
high resistance air filters. Since he doesn't actually work on any of
this stuff in actual installations, he is selling products that he does
not know the effects of. It is nice that he is an electrical engineer.
Maybe he should stick with wires. Being able to do theory does not
mean he has any practical knowledge. Yes, he sometimes has
interesting ideas, but to push them the way he does makes no sense when
they could often be dangerous to implement.

stretch

nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu

2005-09-13, 2:25 pm

Stretch <sixfoot7@sccoast.net> wrote:

>The humidex exhaust fan is a bad idea that nick promotes...

No. Unlike Smart Vents, Humidex is overpriced and needs better
controls. I have no business relationship with either company.

Nick

Lectr0Nuis

2005-09-13, 2:25 pm

"Solar Flare" <sflare@hotmail.com>, rattled the chain with:

>If one cannot think past the gobble-dee-gook for one's own safety then one
>will eventually harm oneself anyway. It won't take Nick or anybody else here
>to do that for people "in over their heads".

So that is how you disown any responsibility for the BS you post being
believed by the reader.
Pontius Pilate = Not My Problem , huh.

Nicks is a true fucktard, has been for years.
You , G00n, work that poor sap
to the Max,,, in elongating the spiel for
your own twisted glee.
Standard stuff for you. Pick on the brainless
and egotistical for *your* free ride.

I do believe this description belongs at your stoop.
" I refer to people such as yourself as the
self-cleaning gene pool."
--ricodjourATworldemail.com

FOAD Troll....
...nuff said.

m II

2005-09-14, 1:21 am

Anthony Matonak wrote:

> Perhaps beer cans could be used as a source of aluminum. A little
> work with a tin snips should suffice.

It's difficult to cut straight after nine or ten empty cans...

mike

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