Alternative Power sources - Can u make hot water flow downwards...

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Can u make hot water flow downwards...

John H

2005-09-13, 2:25 pm

Is it possible to get hot water to flow down wards without a pump?. Suppose
you have a heating source above a radiator. The heating source is in the
middle of a table for scones and coffee> the radiator is for warming the
feet?
John

Anthony Matonak

2005-09-13, 2:25 pm

John H wrote:
> Is it possible to get hot water to flow down wards without a pump?. Suppose
> you have a heating source above a radiator. The heating source is in the
> middle of a table for scones and coffee> the radiator is for warming the
> feet?

Hot water rises, much like hot air rises and for the same reasons.
In theory, you could have it move down just as long as it, somewhere
in the loop, was moving up from hot to cold(er).

For instance, you have a heating source in the middle of your table,
the hot water rises up through a pipe to a radiator on the ceiling
where it cools and falls down through another pipe to the floor
where, still warm but not hot, it warms the feet before rising back
up in a pipe to the heating source.

I don't know why you would bother. Small DC circulating pumps are not
that expensive and wouldn't require a lot of power to run. For that
matter, warm fuzzy slippers aren't that expensive and, in a pinch,
bricks, blocks of iron, or other such things could be pre-heated in
a fire somewhere and used to keep feet warm.

Anthony

John H

2005-09-13, 2:25 pm

Thanks, I was thinking of the Japanese kotatsu (small heated table with a
wrap around rug). I wonderd if it would be possible t make an out door
(similar thing).
John

"Anthony Matonak" <anthonym40@nothing.like.comcast.net> wrote in message
news:rbudneXwp7IS67_eRVn-vQ@comcast.com...
> John H wrote:
>
> Hot water rises, much like hot air rises and for the same reasons.
> In theory, you could have it move down just as long as it, somewhere
> in the loop, was moving up from hot to cold(er).
>
> For instance, you have a heating source in the middle of your table,
> the hot water rises up through a pipe to a radiator on the ceiling
> where it cools and falls down through another pipe to the floor
> where, still warm but not hot, it warms the feet before rising back
> up in a pipe to the heating source.
>
> I don't know why you would bother. Small DC circulating pumps are not
> that expensive and wouldn't require a lot of power to run. For that
> matter, warm fuzzy slippers aren't that expensive and, in a pinch,
> bricks, blocks of iron, or other such things could be pre-heated in
> a fire somewhere and used to keep feet warm.
>
> Anthony

Duane C. Johnson

2005-09-13, 2:25 pm

Hi John;

John H <89s@yahoo.com.au> wrote:

> Is it possible to get hot water to flow down wards
> without a pump?.

Of course!
1. Radiant methods with reflective mirrors.
2. Conductive methods with heavy copper or
aluminum.

I suspect both of these methods would not be satisfactory.

3. Convective methods. Anthony mentioned one lossy method.
Another is to use heat pipes.

Normally heat pipes only can transfer heat upward.
However there is a special heat pipe configuration that
does move heat downward. See the Koenig patent:
http://www.redrok.com/neat.htm#US4336837
OK, technically this heat pipe incorporates a pump.
It's a form of bubble pump to return the condensed
liquid.

> Suppose you have a heating source
> above a radiator. The heating source is in the middle
> of a table for scones and coffee the radiator is for
> warming the feet?
> John

Duane

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Cosmopolite

2005-09-13, 2:25 pm

Anthony Matonak wrote:

> John H wrote:
>
>
>
> Hot water rises, much like hot air rises and for the same reasons.
> In theory, you could have it move down just as long as it, somewhere
> in the loop, was moving up from hot to cold(er).
>
> For instance, you have a heating source in the middle of your table,
> the hot water rises up through a pipe to a radiator on the ceiling
> where it cools and falls down through another pipe to the floor
> where, still warm but not hot, it warms the feet before rising back
> up in a pipe to the heating source.
>
> I don't know why you would bother. Small DC circulating pumps are not
> that expensive and wouldn't require a lot of power to run. For that
> matter, warm fuzzy slippers aren't that expensive and, in a pinch,
> bricks, blocks of iron, or other such things could be pre-heated in
> a fire somewhere and used to keep feet warm.
>
> Anthony

I use a hot water bottle, handy for many things.

John H

2005-09-13, 2:25 pm

I supposed a charcoal brazier would radiate heat downwards (by convection)
as well as up.
John
"Duane C. Johnson" <redrok@redrok.com> wrote in message
news:4322CBCE.3000904@redrok.com...
> Hi John;
>
> John H <89s@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>
>
> Of course!
> 1. Radiant methods with reflective mirrors.
> 2. Conductive methods with heavy copper or
> aluminum.
>
> I suspect both of these methods would not be satisfactory.
>
> 3. Convective methods. Anthony mentioned one lossy method.
> Another is to use heat pipes.
>
> Normally heat pipes only can transfer heat upward.
> However there is a special heat pipe configuration that
> does move heat downward. See the Koenig patent:
> http://www.redrok.com/neat.htm#US4336837
> OK, technically this heat pipe incorporates a pump.
> It's a form of bubble pump to return the condensed
> liquid.
>
>
> Duane
>
> --
> Home of the $35 Solar Tracker Receiver
> http://www.redrok.com/led3xassm.htm [*]
> Powered by \ \ \ //|
> Thermonuclear Solar Energy from the Sun / |
> Energy (the SUN) \ \ \ / / |
> Red Rock Energy \ \ / / |
> Duane C. Johnson Designer \ \ / \ / |
> 1825 Florence St Heliostat,Control,& Mounts |
> White Bear Lake, Minnesota === \ / \ |
> USA 55110-3364 === \ |
> (651)426-4766 use Courier New Font \ |
> redrok@redrok.com (my email: address) \ |
> http://www.redrok.com (Web site) ===

Duane C. Johnson

2005-09-13, 2:25 pm

Hi John;

John H <89s@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
> I supposed a charcoal brazier would radiate
> heat downwards (by convection) as well as up.

That would be radiation not convection.

> John

Duane

--
Home of the $35 Solar Tracker Receiver
http://www.redrok.com/led3xassm.htm [*]
Powered by \ \ \ //|
Thermonuclear Solar Energy from the Sun / |
Energy (the SUN) \ \ \ / / |
Red Rock Energy \ \ / / |
Duane C. Johnson Designer \ \ / \ / |
1825 Florence St Heliostat,Control,& Mounts |
White Bear Lake, Minnesota === \ / \ |
USA 55110-3364 === \ |
(651)426-4766 use Courier New Font \ |
redrok@redrok.com (my email: address) \ |
http://www.redrok.com (Web site) ===

Duane C. Johnson

2005-09-13, 2:25 pm

zenboom

2005-09-13, 2:25 pm

"John H" <89s@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message news:4324047a$1@clear.net.nz...
> I supposed a charcoal brazier would radiate heat downwards (by convection)
> as well as up.

radiation and convection are seperate processes.
-radiation is EM waves, which radiate outward radially ! ;]
-convection is the circulation of air[or fluid] driven by it's absorbtion of
heat energy...and hot air rises.

> John
> "Duane C. Johnson" <redrok@redrok.com> wrote in message
> news:4322CBCE.3000904@redrok.com...

sure...open the tap.
[color=darkred]
>
>

2005-09-23, 10:21 pm

> Is it possible to get hot water to flow down wards without a pump?.

Easy. Just open a tap and let the water flow down and into a drain.
But if you want to have a closed loop system, the problem is that the cold
water, being denser than the hot water, will not flow uphill. Then the hot
water cannot flow into the space already occupied.

> Suppose > you have a heating source above a radiator. The heating source
> is in the middle of a table for scones and coffee
> the radiator is for warming the feet?

Don't use convection, use a conductive metal piece and/or radiative
transfer. Those work equally well in any direction.

CM

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