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Home > Archive > Alternative Power sources > September 2005 > Honda EU-3000 IS - Will it run on Natural Gas?
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Honda EU-3000 IS - Will it run on Natural Gas?
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| wa5dxp 2005-09-13, 2:25 pm |
| Anyone successfully run one on NG? I would be interested in your
experiences, would like to convert mine, and suggestions appreciated.
Jim
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"wa5dxp" <wdxp@cox.net> wrote in message
news:al2di1tamkoor7rljpctd0qgdlhfdk5spm@4ax.com...
> Anyone successfully run one on NG? I would be interested in your
> experiences, would like to convert mine, and suggestions appreciated.
>
> Jim
Given the size, 3kw and the lost of power about 15% because of the change in
fuel. I say it would not be worth it.
http://www.generatorsales.com/order...p?page=H11000E5
Check these guys for alternate fuel gennys.
Because of Katrina I have rethought my plans on fuel. Natural gas is out
because of the potential of not having any fuel available.
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| Vaughn Simon 2005-09-13, 4:21 pm |
|
"SQLit" <sqlit@qwest.net> wrote in message
news:kFEVe.19$WL4.3330@news.uswest.net...
>
> Check these guys for alternate fuel gennys.
>
> Because of Katrina I have rethought my plans on fuel. Natural gas is out
> because of the potential of not having any fuel available.i
But if the natural gas IS available, there is nothing handier. With
fuel pumped right to your home, there are no tanks to haul and no lines to
wait in. In my case, I decided that NG would be my first choice, but I
also keep a couple hundred pounds of LP gas available and can run on that by
simply opening the proper valve. Dual, even tripple, fuel is the way to go
to give you the maximum chance of having power after a disaster.
Vaughn
>
>
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"Vaughn Simon" <vaughnsimonHATESSPAM@att.net> wrote in message
news:f6FVe.39075$qY1.6578@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>
> "SQLit" <sqlit@qwest.net> wrote in message
> news:kFEVe.19$WL4.3330@news.uswest.net...
>
> But if the natural gas IS available, there is nothing handier. With
> fuel pumped right to your home, there are no tanks to haul and no lines to
> wait in. In my case, I decided that NG would be my first choice, but I
> also keep a couple hundred pounds of LP gas available and can run on that
by
> simply opening the proper valve. Dual, even tripple, fuel is the way to
go
> to give you the maximum chance of having power after a disaster.
>
> Vaughn
His little 3kw generator will loose 10-15% of rated power on LP or propane.
Was the one you have with dual or tri fuel this small?
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| Vaughn 2005-09-13, 7:21 pm |
|
"SQLit" <sqlit@qwest.net> wrote in message
news:kVGVe.25$6O3.1084@news.uswest.net...
>
>
> His little 3kw generator will loose 10-15% of rated power on LP or propane.
> Was the one you have with dual or tri fuel this small?
I don't consider 3 KW to be so "little" for residential standby use. That
should be big enough to run a small room unit, a 'fridge, a few lights and
normal electronics. In a temporary situation that 3 KW will make all the
difference between misery and reasonable comfort. As for the reduction in power
for natural or LP gas, it sort of depends on how the generator is designed: Is
the power limit set by the HP of the engine or the size of the generator? That
could be something that would vary greatly from model to model. Also, a few
hundred watts of capacity may never be missed if they weren't needed in the
first place.
Actually, I have an old Onan that is either 5KW or 4KW depending on which
paper I read. With normal household loads (only wired for 110) I seldom see
over 2kw of total load. My Onan does not have a gasoline carb, so I am limited
to natural gas and LP gas.
Vaughn
>
>
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"Vaughn" <vaughnsimonHATESSPAM@att.fake.net> wrote in message
news:12IVe.241361$5N3.236044@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>
> "SQLit" <sqlit@qwest.net> wrote in message
> news:kVGVe.25$6O3.1084@news.uswest.net...
propane.[color=darkred]
>
> I don't consider 3 KW to be so "little" for residential standby use.
That
> should be big enough to run a small room unit, a 'fridge, a few lights and
> normal electronics. In a temporary situation that 3 KW will make all the
Considering motor loads, refrigerator and other common loads. Removing even
10% from 3k cuts the size of the motor that can be started safely. A lot of
people do not know that the engine must be designed for the LP gases.
Taking a gasoline engine and converting it will reduce the hp and the amount
the genny can start. If the guy lives at altitude (>3500ft) then the
problems just multiply.
I stand by the original statement, this conversion will be more expensive
than it will be worth.
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| Vaughn 2005-09-13, 8:21 pm |
|
"SQLit" <sqlit@qwest.net> wrote in message
news:RpIVe.43$WL4.4969@news.uswest.net...
>
>
> Considering motor loads, refrigerator and other common loads. Removing even
> 10% from 3k cuts the size of the motor that can be started safely.
Without a doubt, that is true, but perhaps not by as much as you think.
Starting ability (surge capacity) has much to do with the rotating mass of the
engine/generator and the copper in the generator, and neither of those is
affected by the fuel in the engine.
> I stand by the original statement, this conversion will be more expensive
> than it will be worth.
For you that is obviously true, but value is in the eye of the purchaser.
A generator with no fuel makes a damn expensive paperweight. In the days/weeks
following a disaster, availability of fuel can be assumed to be a problem.
Vaughn
>
>
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| sparky 2005-09-13, 11:21 pm |
| I am with Vaughn. The Honda is a great genny and I do fine at 2 kw. I
would be careful who I bought the mod from as I currently dislike the
service from US carbeuration. These gens are so quiet I would slave
them if I needed more. Who else does the mods?
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| wa5dxp 2005-09-14, 12:21 am |
| I just lived through Katrina in New Orleans and had to go to Oklahoma
to buy the Honda, natural gas is ALWAYS on during a hurricane in the
New Orleans area, whereas gasoline, diesel are not.
Getting set up for the next big one... he he..
Jim
On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 22:44:13 GMT, "Vaughn"
<vaughnsimonHATESSPAM@att.fake.net> wrote:
>
>"SQLit" <sqlit@qwest.net> wrote in message
>news:RpIVe.43$WL4.4969@news.uswest.net...
>
> Without a doubt, that is true, but perhaps not by as much as you think.
>Starting ability (surge capacity) has much to do with the rotating mass of the
>engine/generator and the copper in the generator, and neither of those is
>affected by the fuel in the engine.
>
>
> For you that is obviously true, but value is in the eye of the purchaser.
>A generator with no fuel makes a damn expensive paperweight. In the days/weeks
>following a disaster, availability of fuel can be assumed to be a problem.
>
>Vaughn
>
>
>
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| JoeSixPack 2005-09-14, 9:21 am |
|
"SQLit" <sqlit@qwest.net> wrote in message
news:kVGVe.25$6O3.1084@news.uswest.net...
>
> "Vaughn Simon" <vaughnsimonHATESSPAM@att.net> wrote in message
> news:f6FVe.39075$qY1.6578@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> by
> go
>
> His little 3kw generator will loose 10-15% of rated power on LP or
> propane.
> Was the one you have with dual or tri fuel this small?
I don't believe loss of power is an issue with most generators. The engine
speed is governed, and the rated engine power in most cases will exceed the
power requirements of the generator under full load. The fact that a pound
of propane has less energy than a pound of gasoline will probably have no
effect on it's operation.
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| JoeSixPack 2005-09-14, 9:21 am |
|
"wa5dxp" <wdxp@cox.net> wrote in message
news:5j4fi1lj1fhq391ar89bo639j47e45csqk@4ax.com...
>I just lived through Katrina in New Orleans and had to go to Oklahoma
> to buy the Honda, natural gas is ALWAYS on during a hurricane in the
> New Orleans area, whereas gasoline, diesel are not.
>
> Getting set up for the next big one... he he..
>
> Jim
You were just lucky. Nothing beats a storage tank on your property.
| |
| William P. N. Smith 2005-09-14, 9:21 am |
| wa5dxp <wdxp@cox.net> wrote:
>I just lived through Katrina in New Orleans and had to go to Oklahoma
>to buy the Honda, natural gas is ALWAYS on during a hurricane in the
>New Orleans area, whereas gasoline, diesel are not.
Is it on today?
| |
| Robert Morein 2005-09-14, 6:21 pm |
|
"JoeSixPack" <olegp@telus.net> wrote in message
news:CgUVe.169651$wr.88772@clgrps12...
>
[snip]
> I don't believe loss of power is an issue with most generators. The
engine
> speed is governed, and the rated engine power in most cases will exceed
the
> power requirements of the generator under full load. The fact that a pound
> of propane has less energy than a pound of gasoline will probably have no
> effect on it's operation.
>
But this is an inverter model, with an "eco" mode, with throttle control.
I have a Yamaha 30is, and notice that the engine takes a hit when the load
goes up. This is a kind of feedback loop, which has been calibrated for a
particular engine response. If the engine is derated, it may stall instead.
| |
| Robert Morein 2005-09-14, 6:21 pm |
|
"JoeSixPack" <olegp@telus.net> wrote in message
news:4jUVe.169652$wr.169060@clgrps12...
>
> "wa5dxp" <wdxp@cox.net> wrote in message
> news:5j4fi1lj1fhq391ar89bo639j47e45csqk@4ax.com...
>
> You were just lucky. Nothing beats a storage tank on your property.
>
Yes, no. Nothing beats diversity of sources.
| |
| JoeSixPack 2005-09-14, 11:21 pm |
|
"Robert Morein" <nowhere@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:TtOdnT81vpc5ELXeRVn-2Q@giganews.com...
>
> "JoeSixPack" <olegp@telus.net> wrote in message
> news:CgUVe.169651$wr.88772@clgrps12...
> [snip]
> engine
> the
> But this is an inverter model, with an "eco" mode, with throttle control.
> I have a Yamaha 30is, and notice that the engine takes a hit when the load
> goes up. This is a kind of feedback loop, which has been calibrated for a
> particular engine response. If the engine is derated, it may stall
> instead.
>
The feedback control for the microprocessor comes from an RPM sensor, not
from the throttle position. Using gas or propane fuel with a lower energy
yield than gasoline will simply open the throttle more, until the proper RPM
is reached for the desired inverter output.
| |
| wa5dxp 2005-09-15, 7:21 am |
|
Yes, it was on today. In fact, I have been through many hurricanes in
this Jefferson Parish location since 1947 monster storm, Betsy,
Camille, Audry, Katrina and we have never lost Natural Gas. We have
lost water, electricity and everything else, but natural gas has been
extremely reliable, thus our wanting to set up for the tri-fuel
supply. Gasoline has been impossible to get, and probably LP gas too
since Katrina hit. FEMA bought all the generators they could scrounge
nationwide but a friend located the Honda in Oklahoma City and brought
it down.
Jim
On Wed, 14 Sep 2005 07:58:29 -0400, William P. N. Smith <> wrote:
>wa5dxp <wdxp@cox.net> wrote:
>
>Is it on today?
| |
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| On Thu, 15 Sep 2005 04:39:57 -0500, wa5dxp <wdxp@cox.net> wrote:
>
>Yes, it was on today. In fact, I have been through many hurricanes in
>this Jefferson Parish location since 1947 monster storm, Betsy,
>Camille, Audry, Katrina and we have never lost Natural Gas. We have
>lost water, electricity and everything else, but natural gas has been
>extremely reliable, thus our wanting to set up for the tri-fuel
>supply. Gasoline has been impossible to get, and probably LP gas too
>since Katrina hit. FEMA bought all the generators they could scrounge
>nationwide but a friend located the Honda in Oklahoma City and brought
>it down.
>
>Jim
>
>
>
>On Wed, 14 Sep 2005 07:58:29 -0400, William P. N. Smith <> wrote:
>
>
Thanks for the info that some natural gas is on in nola area.
(some areas downtown are off because of line breaks)
Genericaly(sp?), any engine that runs on gasoline will also run on propane
or natural gas. With slightly reduced power output because of lower
energy content in the fuels.
Common NG conversions feed metered zero psi vapor fuel into the
carb venturi, engine vacuum controls the amount delivered. This works
well even with "auto-idle" gensets that slow down with -no- load.
EU's etal are special because they need to produce useable power at
reduced rpm's. To run smoothly, they may also need a fixed "idle bleed"
fuel supply directly into the manifold. (behind the throttle butterfly)
If I ever have a spare $2000 to play around with, I may get a 3000eu
to experiment with. Electric start is almost mandatory for vapor fuel
engines, unless you have three hands or a knowledable helper.
Meanwhile, I like Generac EXL series. Easy to find at Home Depot,
just find the models that have spin-off oil filters.
zero
| |
| Robert Morein 2005-09-15, 2:21 pm |
|
"JoeSixPack" <olegp@telus.net> wrote in message
news:754We.231674$9A2.110275@edtnps89...
>
> "Robert Morein" <nowhere@nowhere.com> wrote in message
> news:TtOdnT81vpc5ELXeRVn-2Q@giganews.com...
no[color=darkred]
control.[color=darkred]
load[color=darkred]
a[color=darkred]
>
> The feedback control for the microprocessor comes from an RPM sensor, not
> from the throttle position. Using gas or propane fuel with a lower energy
> yield than gasoline will simply open the throttle more, until the proper
RPM
> is reached for the desired inverter output.
>
True, but the gain of the control loop would be different for each case.
Thus, with less engine power, the engine might stall rather than recover the
load.
| |
| Fred Wesner 2005-09-15, 3:21 pm |
| http://www.propane-generators.com/eu3000i_kits.htm
They have kits for propane or NG. No experience with them.
I have an EU3000 and was considering this, but it seems like a kludge.
I'd like to use NG and keep the option of using gasoline.
Fred
Robert Morein wrote:
>
> But this is an inverter model, with an "eco" mode, with throttle control.
> I have a Yamaha 30is, and notice that the engine takes a hit when the load
> goes up. This is a kind of feedback loop, which has been calibrated for a
> particular engine response. If the engine is derated, it may stall instead.
>
>
| |
|
| On Thu, 15 Sep 2005 01:26:27 GMT, "JoeSixPack" <olegp@telus.net>
wrote:
>
>"Robert Morein" <nowhere@nowhere.com> wrote in message
>news:TtOdnT81vpc5ELXeRVn-2Q@giganews.com...
>
>The feedback control for the microprocessor comes from an RPM sensor, not
>from the throttle position. Using gas or propane fuel with a lower energy
>yield than gasoline will simply open the throttle more, until the proper RPM
>is reached for the desired inverter output.
Many small generators don't produce their rated output. Operating them
in any condition that's less than optimum, such as in worn or badly
tuned condition, higher altitude, or on lower grade fuel, will reduce
their maximum output even further.
Wayne
| |
| Solar Flare 2005-09-15, 7:21 pm |
| Propane demands higher temperature valves. This only became posssible with
unleaded gasoline engines. The leaded fuel engines had valves that would not
stand the heat.
"zero" <zeromedic@go.com> wrote in message
news:432982aa.353007780@news.verizon.net...
On Thu, 15 Sep 2005 04:39:57 -0500, wa5dxp <wdxp@cox.net> wrote:
>
>Yes, it was on today. In fact, I have been through many hurricanes in
>this Jefferson Parish location since 1947 monster storm, Betsy,
>Camille, Audry, Katrina and we have never lost Natural Gas. We have
>lost water, electricity and everything else, but natural gas has been
>extremely reliable, thus our wanting to set up for the tri-fuel
>supply. Gasoline has been impossible to get, and probably LP gas too
>since Katrina hit. FEMA bought all the generators they could scrounge
>nationwide but a friend located the Honda in Oklahoma City and brought
>it down.
>
>Jim
>
>
>
>On Wed, 14 Sep 2005 07:58:29 -0400, William P. N. Smith <> wrote:
>
>
Thanks for the info that some natural gas is on in nola area.
(some areas downtown are off because of line breaks)
Genericaly(sp?), any engine that runs on gasoline will also run on propane
or natural gas. With slightly reduced power output because of lower
energy content in the fuels.
Common NG conversions feed metered zero psi vapor fuel into the
carb venturi, engine vacuum controls the amount delivered. This works
well even with "auto-idle" gensets that slow down with -no- load.
EU's etal are special because they need to produce useable power at
reduced rpm's. To run smoothly, they may also need a fixed "idle bleed"
fuel supply directly into the manifold. (behind the throttle butterfly)
If I ever have a spare $2000 to play around with, I may get a 3000eu
to experiment with. Electric start is almost mandatory for vapor fuel
engines, unless you have three hands or a knowledable helper.
Meanwhile, I like Generac EXL series. Easy to find at Home Depot,
just find the models that have spin-off oil filters.
zero
| |
| JoeSixPack 2005-09-17, 4:21 pm |
|
"Robert Morein" <nowhere@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:1vGdnTPMoawjOLTenZ2dnUVZ_tGdnZ2d@giganews.com...
>
> "JoeSixPack" <olegp@telus.net> wrote in message
> news:754We.231674$9A2.110275@edtnps89...
> no
> control.
> load
> a
> RPM
> True, but the gain of the control loop would be different for each case.
> Thus, with less engine power, the engine might stall rather than recover
> the
> load.
True, but only if the engine were specked to handle peak load with no power
to spare. This is usually not the case, because it wouldn't allow for
engine wear, being out-of-tune, cold weather and higher altitude operation.
It's a lot cheaper to add a few cc's than to replace a lot of them under
warranty.
| |
| JoeSixPack 2005-09-17, 4:21 pm |
|
"Solar Flare" <sflare@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:wqadnWQRrbb3bbTeRVn-iQ@golden.net...
> Propane demands higher temperature valves. This only became posssible with
> unleaded gasoline engines. The leaded fuel engines had valves that would
> not
> stand the heat.
>
> "zero" <zeromedic@go.com> wrote in message
> news:432982aa.353007780@news.verizon.net...
> On Thu, 15 Sep 2005 04:39:57 -0500, wa5dxp <wdxp@cox.net> wrote:
>
>
> Thanks for the info that some natural gas is on in nola area.
> (some areas downtown are off because of line breaks)
>
> Genericaly(sp?), any engine that runs on gasoline will also run on propane
> or natural gas. With slightly reduced power output because of lower
> energy content in the fuels.
>
> Common NG conversions feed metered zero psi vapor fuel into the
> carb venturi, engine vacuum controls the amount delivered. This works
> well even with "auto-idle" gensets that slow down with -no- load.
>
> EU's etal are special because they need to produce useable power at
> reduced rpm's. To run smoothly, they may also need a fixed "idle bleed"
> fuel supply directly into the manifold. (behind the throttle butterfly)
>
> If I ever have a spare $2000 to play around with, I may get a 3000eu
> to experiment with. Electric start is almost mandatory for vapor fuel
> engines, unless you have three hands or a knowledable helper.
>
> Meanwhile, I like Generac EXL series. Easy to find at Home Depot,
> just find the models that have spin-off oil filters.
>
> zero
I like the ones with no oil filters. I just change the oil more often.
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