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Home > Archive > Alternative Power sources > January 2006 > Building VS Buying Solar Collector.
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| Author |
Building VS Buying Solar Collector.
|
|
|
| I was wondering if anyone knows of good plans for these?
I see them all over the place and don't mind buying them but I'm afraid
I will waste my money on a useless set of plans. Obviously if someone knows
where
there are free plans that would be the best.
Also im interested in input regarding building your own or buying them.
Regards.
Tom
| |
|
|
"Drums" <tgiorgi1@REMOVEnycap.rr.com> wrote in message
news:uZBtf.47205$XJ5.33022@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
> I was wondering if anyone knows of good plans for these?
> I see them all over the place and don't mind buying them but I'm afraid
> I will waste my money on a useless set of plans. Obviously if someone
knows
> where
> there are free plans that would be the best.
>
> Also im interested in input regarding building your own or buying them.
>
> Regards.
>
> Tom
What type of solar panels do you want?
I have built hot water collectors and I have paid for them. The store bought
have always out done my home made ones.
As for building PV, I can not speak on that subject.
| |
| Anthony Matonak 2005-12-31, 6:21 pm |
| Drums wrote:
> I was wondering if anyone knows of good plans for these?
> I see them all over the place and don't mind buying them but I'm afraid
> I will waste my money on a useless set of plans. Obviously if someone knows
> where
> there are free plans that would be the best.
>
> Also im interested in input regarding building your own or buying them.
....
Solar air heaters are fairly simple to build out of common materials
so building them vs. buying seems quite reasonable. Plans are available
for free and there are a lot of examples on the net showing people
who have built their own.
Solar water heaters are a bit harder, though still possible. If
you're not handy with tools and plumbing then you might do better
just buying them.
Solar PV (electric) cells are nearly impossible for a homeowner to
make themselves. You can buy a bunch of cells and assemble them into
a panel yourself but it'll cost almost as much as buying a panel and
it's unlikely you'll match their quality.
Anthony
| |
|
| Sorry I meant solar hot water system. Will be used for hot water and heat.
I plan on having 4 or 5 panels and 1000 gallon storage.
"SQLit" <sqlit@qwest.net> wrote in message
news:YbDtf.30$1U1.4394@news.uswest.net...
>
> "Drums" <tgiorgi1@REMOVEnycap.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:uZBtf.47205$XJ5.33022@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
> knows
>
> What type of solar panels do you want?
>
> I have built hot water collectors and I have paid for them. The store
bought
> have always out done my home made ones.
>
> As for building PV, I can not speak on that subject.
>
>
| |
|
|
"Drums" <tgiorgi1@REMOVEnycap.rr.com> wrote in message
news:DWUtf.47845$XJ5.12762@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
> Sorry I meant solar hot water system. Will be used for hot water and
heat.
> I plan on having 4 or 5 panels and 1000 gallon storage.
washing and heat in the same tank, not a good plan my friend. Most systems I
have seen installed keep heating and washing seperate. Washing water is
potable/drinking and heating water is generally mixed with chemicals to
prevent the water from eating away at the piping system.
I had one 4x10 collector facing southwestish. Mine was mounted so it had the
roof pitch. Close but not optimal. I had a Lockinvar 80 gallon water
heater. Summer time, the water was "toasty" almost dangerous. Winter time
I really needed another panel. The electric back up ran more than I liked.
My Grunfos pump was good for about 10 gallons an minute and 20 feet of head.
I live in Phoenix, and there was only 2 adults in the home.
You can heat a little water a lot, or a lot of water a little. Not much in
between.
You do not mention what latitude your at so just guessing the 5 panels and
1000 gallons aint gonna happen. Unless you want to raise the water a degree
or two.
[color=darkred]
> "SQLit" <sqlit@qwest.net> wrote in message
> news:YbDtf.30$1U1.4394@news.uswest.net...
---------snipped==================
| |
|
| The system I plan on building will be a closed one. The heat exchanger will
help boost incoming water temp
and the stored water will be used for baseboard heat and to boost incoming
water witch is 55F, not terribly cold. You're correct In that I would need
allot more panels. I have 4 200 gallon tanks, so I will likely start with 4
panels with a 200 gallon and see how that works.
FYI this system will be PC controlled only because I have the software and
hardware. I will be using
Labview to do this. I know there will be some loss with the heat exchanger
but I have decided I want a closed system.
I live in the northeast. The object is invest a minimal amount so that's
why I was trying to see if it's cheaper to build the panels
of just buy them. I have almost all the valves, pumps, thermocouples and
other parts.
Point taken on raising a little water lot, and lot of water a little. I'm
assuming with enough panels
however I could raise a lot of water to a pretty high temp if insulated well
enough.
That is the main reason I am after a cheap way to build them. I have room
for 8 of them easy if not more.
To buy 5 new panels would cost over 2k.
"SQLit" <sqlit@qwest.net> wrote in message
news:mmWtf.15$R32.613@news.uswest.net...
>
> "Drums" <tgiorgi1@REMOVEnycap.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:DWUtf.47845$XJ5.12762@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
> heat.
>
> washing and heat in the same tank, not a good plan my friend. Most systems
I
> have seen installed keep heating and washing seperate. Washing water is
> potable/drinking and heating water is generally mixed with chemicals to
> prevent the water from eating away at the piping system.
>
> I had one 4x10 collector facing southwestish. Mine was mounted so it had
the
> roof pitch. Close but not optimal. I had a Lockinvar 80 gallon water
> heater. Summer time, the water was "toasty" almost dangerous. Winter
time
> I really needed another panel. The electric back up ran more than I liked.
> My Grunfos pump was good for about 10 gallons an minute and 20 feet of
head.
> I live in Phoenix, and there was only 2 adults in the home.
>
> You can heat a little water a lot, or a lot of water a little. Not much in
> between.
>
> You do not mention what latitude your at so just guessing the 5 panels and
> 1000 gallons aint gonna happen. Unless you want to raise the water a
degree
> or two.
>
>
>
>
> ---------snipped==================
>
>
| |
| nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu 2006-01-02, 9:21 am |
| Mike Pelletier has an interesting idea:
>What about a single polycarbonate panel over black painted aluminum roofing
>that is tilted so the high end is 6" further to the south away from the
>house wall than the bottom. Trickle water down the backside (out of the sun)
>of the roofing. Protect the house wall with roofing paper and/or polyethylene
>and seal the panel so the polycarbonate doesn't get moisture.
IIRC, ABC sells thin dark green galvalume barn roofing for 30 cents/ft^2.
If it's collecting hot water and the house also needs heat, it could be
more efficient with some house air flowing between absorber and glazing:
if 225 Btu/h-ft^2 of sun enters that space and it's 20 F outdoors with 120 F
water, R1 glazing would lose 100 Btu/h, so we might collect 125 Btu/h. If
2 cfm of house air flows into the bottom at 70 F and out at 120 F and the
average temp near the glazing is 95, we might only lose (95-20)/1ft^2/R1
= 75, collecting 150 Btu/h, or more, if the 70 F air stays near the glazing
and the 120 F air stays near the absorber.
Nick
| |
|
|
<nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu> wrote in message news:dpb5e6$a4i@acadia.ece.villanova.edu...
> Mike Pelletier has an interesting idea:
>
>
> IIRC, ABC sells thin dark green galvalume barn roofing for 30 cents/ft^2.
>
> If it's collecting hot water and the house also needs heat, it could be
> more efficient with some house air flowing between absorber and glazing:
> if 225 Btu/h-ft^2 of sun enters that space and it's 20 F outdoors with 120 F
> water, R1 glazing would lose 100 Btu/h, so we might collect 125 Btu/h. If
> 2 cfm of house air flows into the bottom at 70 F and out at 120 F and the
> average temp near the glazing is 95, we might only lose (95-20)/1ft^2/R1
> = 75, collecting 150 Btu/h, or more, if the 70 F air stays near the glazing
> and the 120 F air stays near the absorber.
>
> Nick
>
I like the idea of air collectors. I have a patio cover that could take air
from the house under the corrugated material and return it on the top facing
the sun. Top the material with some multiwall polycarbonate and you have
a pretty cheap solar collector for maybe $100 per 4' x 8' section.
| |
|
|
"Drums" <tgiorgi1@REMOVEnycap.rr.com> wrote in message
news:6e_tf.70632$ME5.10874@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
> The system I plan on building will be a closed one. The heat exchanger
will
> help boost incoming water temp
> and the stored water will be used for baseboard heat and to boost incoming
> water witch is 55F, not terribly cold. You're correct In that I would
need
> allot more panels. I have 4 200 gallon tanks, so I will likely start with
4
> panels with a 200 gallon and see how that works.
> FYI this system will be PC controlled only because I have the software and
> hardware. I will be using
> Labview to do this. I know there will be some loss with the heat
exchanger
> but I have decided I want a closed system.
> I live in the northeast. The object is invest a minimal amount so that's
> why I was trying to see if it's cheaper to build the panels
> of just buy them. I have almost all the valves, pumps, thermocouples and
> other parts.
> Point taken on raising a little water lot, and lot of water a little. I'm
> assuming with enough panels
> however I could raise a lot of water to a pretty high temp if insulated
well
> enough.
> That is the main reason I am after a cheap way to build them. I have room
> for 8 of them easy if not more.
> To buy 5 new panels would cost over 2k.
>
>
--------snipped again========================
Closed? Please re-think that idea. Your water comes from an open system.
When ever you use water your injecting fresh oxygenated water. OK for
potable.
55 F is cold. I work on a chilled water system that has warmer water coming
back than that.
You need to bring that water temp up to ~100F for bathing, and 140F for
heating.
Your planning on tracking the solar collectors. Wow what a project. I guess
your planning on parabolic collectors. I have never seen water filled flat
plates tracked. Gonna need some gearing on that mechanism.
Are you in Arizona? If you are contact TEP in Tucson or APS in Tempe and
ask for a tour of their solar facilities. I have never seen the one in
Tucson, but the one in Tempe is staggering. These guys will try almost
anything to see if it will work.
Good luck an post your progress.
| |
|
| I am planning on tracking the collectors? Don't know where you got that
idea although I could do it
if I wanted to spend the time.
I don't think you understand the nature of this project. This is strictly
for supplemental.
I want a closed system. I have researched it and thought about it.
I already have the heat exchangers. I don't need 140F. 110f would help
reduce the heating load
on the gas furnace. I plan to run 4 collectors to start with.
"SQLit" <sqlit@qwest.net> wrote in message
news:Wweuf.24$5F2.643@news.uswest.net...
>
> "Drums" <tgiorgi1@REMOVEnycap.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:6e_tf.70632$ME5.10874@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
> will
incoming[color=darkred]
> need
with[color=darkred]
> 4
and[color=darkred]
> exchanger
that's[color=darkred]
I'm[color=darkred]
> well
room[color=darkred]
> --------snipped again========================
>
> Closed? Please re-think that idea. Your water comes from an open system.
> When ever you use water your injecting fresh oxygenated water. OK for
> potable.
>
> 55 F is cold. I work on a chilled water system that has warmer water
coming
> back than that.
>
> You need to bring that water temp up to ~100F for bathing, and 140F for
> heating.
>
> Your planning on tracking the solar collectors. Wow what a project. I
guess
> your planning on parabolic collectors. I have never seen water filled
flat
> plates tracked. Gonna need some gearing on that mechanism.
>
> Are you in Arizona? If you are contact TEP in Tucson or APS in Tempe and
> ask for a tour of their solar facilities. I have never seen the one in
> Tucson, but the one in Tempe is staggering. These guys will try almost
> anything to see if it will work.
>
> Good luck an post your progress.
>
>
>
| |
|
| This gives me a though. I could use 2 collectors for hot water and 2 for
air for heating and keep the systems
seperate.
"SJC" <sjc_paul_1@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:pmauf.5243$uv.452@trnddc06...
>
> <nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu> wrote in message
news:dpb5e6$a4i@acadia.ece.villanova.edu...
roofing[color=darkred]
sun)[color=darkred]
polyethylene[color=darkred]
cents/ft^2.[color=darkred]
120 F[color=darkred]
If[color=darkred]
the[color=darkred]
glazing[color=darkred]
> I like the idea of air collectors. I have a patio cover that could take
air
> from the house under the corrugated material and return it on the top
facing
> the sun. Top the material with some multiwall polycarbonate and you have
> a pretty cheap solar collector for maybe $100 per 4' x 8' section.
| |
|
|
"Drums" <tgiorgi1@REMOVEnycap.rr.com> wrote in message news:E4fuf.48382$XJ5.19166@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
> This gives me a though. I could use 2 collectors for hot water and 2 for
> air for heating and keep the systems
> seperate.
Or, just combine them. Run some tubes with clamps along the corrugated.
It depends on thermal resistance and insulation, but it might work.
>
> "SJC" <sjc_paul_1@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:pmauf.5243$uv.452@trnddc06...
> news:dpb5e6$a4i@acadia.ece.villanova.edu...
> roofing
> sun)
> polyethylene
> cents/ft^2.
> 120 F
> If
> the
> glazing
> air
> facing
>
>
| |
|
| Drums wrote:
> I was wondering if anyone knows of good plans for these?
> I see them all over the place and don't mind buying them but I'm afraid
> I will waste my money on a useless set of plans. Obviously if someone knows
> where
> there are free plans that would be the best.
>
> Also im interested in input regarding building your own or buying them.
>
> Regards.
>
> Tom
>
>
Hi,
Lots of plans here:
http://www.builditsolar.com/Project...ace_Heating.htm
and here:
http://www.builditsolar.com/Project...ter_heating.htm
Another alternative is to build most of the collector, but buy the absorber plates.
I am doing this for my solar heating project -- described here:
http://www.builditsolar.com/Experim...d/solarshed.htm
Sunray makes some $4.50 per sqft absorber plates.
If you can use air collectors instead of water collectors, then building
collectors gets even simplier. If well integrated with the structure, they
can cost as little as $2 per sqft (vs $20 and up for commercial panels).
--
Gary
www.BuildItSolar.com
gary@BuildItSolar.com
"Build It Yourself" Solar Projects
----== Posted via droptable.com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.droptable.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
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| |
|
| Thanks Gary. Very usefull info.
"Gary" <gary@builditsolar.com> wrote in message
news:1136597141_4403@spool6-east.superfeed.net...
> Drums wrote:
knows[color=darkred]
>
>
> Hi,
> Lots of plans here:
> http://www.builditsolar.com/Project...ace_Heating.htm
> and here:
> http://www.builditsolar.com/Project...ter_heating.htm
>
> Another alternative is to build most of the collector, but buy the
absorber plates.
> I am doing this for my solar heating project -- described here:
>
>
http://www.builditsolar.com/Experim...d/solarshed.htm
>
> Sunray makes some $4.50 per sqft absorber plates.
>
> If you can use air collectors instead of water collectors, then building
> collectors gets even simplier. If well integrated with the structure,
they
> can cost as little as $2 per sqft (vs $20 and up for commercial panels).
>
>
> --
>
>
> Gary
>
> www.BuildItSolar.com
> gary@BuildItSolar.com
> "Build It Yourself" Solar Projects
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----== Posted via droptable.com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet
News==----
> http://www.droptable.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+
Newsgroups
> ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption
=----
| |
| Buy_Sell 2006-01-19, 5:21 am |
| Is your intention to heat water or heat air? In the case of solar
water heaters, you might want to consider a few things. If you live in
cooler climates, during the winter months the standard flat plate
collector loses its efficiency very quickly. Whereby, the more modern
thermos style solar water collectors will operate in very cold
climates. Do a google search on the internet with the keywords,
evacuated tube solar
http://www.enviro-friendly.com/evac...hot-water.shtml
| |
| SolarFlair 2006-01-19, 9:21 pm |
| I have considered the usage of evacuated tube solar
thermal collectors but I would not save that much
energy using one of those in the rest of my life at the
rates we pay these days.
If you are living in isolation as some are them maybe
it would be worth it.
"Buy_Sell" <werkspace@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1137661078.751702.48320@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Is your intention to heat water or heat air? In the
case of solar
> water heaters, you might want to consider a few
things. If you live in
> cooler climates, during the winter months the
standard flat plate
> collector loses its efficiency very quickly.
Whereby, the more modern
> thermos style solar water collectors will operate in
very cold
> climates. Do a google search on the internet with
the keywords,
> evacuated tube solar
>
>
http://www.enviro-friendly.com/evac...hot-water.shtml
>
| |
| Drums 2006-01-20, 12:21 am |
| I have looked into those. It would take years for a payback.
That's the whole Idea with building my own.
I have plenty of room. So what If I need 6 flat plates.
That = the cost of 2 evacuated units.
"SolarFlair" <sf@hot.mail.invalid> wrote in message
news:AbmdneFdPsMEqk3eRVn-hw@golden.net...
> I have considered the usage of evacuated tube solar
> thermal collectors but I would not save that much
> energy using one of those in the rest of my life at the
> rates we pay these days.
>
> If you are living in isolation as some are them maybe
> it would be worth it.
>
> "Buy_Sell" <werkspace@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1137661078.751702.48320@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> case of solar
> things. If you live in
> standard flat plate
> Whereby, the more modern
> very cold
> the keywords,
> http://www.enviro-friendly.com/evac...hot-water.shtml
>
>
| |
| SolarFlare 2006-01-20, 12:21 am |
| I don't think the panel units will develop as high of
temperatures in the winter months. If you are in a
warmer climate they should be fine.
"Drums" <tgiorgi1@REMOVEnycap.rr.com> wrote in message
news:HQYzf.97109$XJ5.54813@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
> I have looked into those. It would take years for a
payback.
> That's the whole Idea with building my own.
> I have plenty of room. So what If I need 6 flat
plates.
> That = the cost of 2 evacuated units.
>
>
> "SolarFlair" <sf@hot.mail.invalid> wrote in message
> news:AbmdneFdPsMEqk3eRVn-hw@golden.net...
the[color=darkred]
maybe[color=darkred]
news:1137661078.751702.48320@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...[color=darkred]
the[color=darkred]
in[color=darkred]
with[color=darkred]
http://www.enviro-friendly.com/evac...hot-water.shtml[color=darkred]
>
>
| |
|
| Im sure they won't but Im not looking to get much out of them in the dead of
winter.
I expect thay will help reduce my hot water heating costs and provide some
heat assistance
in the milder months. If the outside temp is say 30 and the water temp
reaches 90F on a sunny day
that adding heat to the house is it not? Remeber that this is not going to
be a primary source.
Im only looking to reduce my heating bill and hot water bill. 6 Flat plates
should give me
at least 200 gallons of hot or warm water storage. If insulated well that
should reduce the heating load considerably
on a sunny day no? I may well end up being that even building my own won't
give me much of a payback
but I don't think would be the case running 6 collectors.
"SolarFlare" <sf@hot.mail.invalid> wrote in message
news:98Sdnfna7sY0wU3eRVn-tw@golden.net...
> I don't think the panel units will develop as high of
> temperatures in the winter months. If you are in a
> warmer climate they should be fine.
>
> "Drums" <tgiorgi1@REMOVEnycap.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:HQYzf.97109$XJ5.54813@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
> payback.
> plates.
> the
> maybe
> news:1137661078.751702.48320@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> the
> in
> with
> http://www.enviro-friendly.com/evac...hot-water.shtml
>
>
| |
| Buy_Sell 2006-01-20, 2:21 am |
| The cost of the evacuated tube solar water heaters is coming down in
price. I live in Calgary, Alberta, Canada and our natural gas prices
are going thru the roof. Last summer they were $7 per Gj and now they
are $16 per Gj. On top of the ridiculous prices they have added
administration fees, distribution fees, rider fees, taxes and whatever
other fees that they can come up with. I am fed up with utility
companies gouging me and I purchased my first solar water collector
just before Christmas. Unfortunately, I broke my foot over the
holidays and have been house bound for several weeks.
What I can tell you about evacuated tube solar water heaters is that a
local company near me wanted $3,000 per 30 tube collector. I thought
that was a bit steep, so I did a little bit of sourcing around and
found some interesting options. I can purchase a minimum order of ten
30 tube collectors from Shanghai for about $240 USD each plus shipping.
I didn't want to make that investment just yet because I wanted to see
the technology close up and personal before such a transaction. So
what I did was purchase a single 30 tube collector from Fitch
Consulting in PA, USA for $595 USD. With the exchange rate, shipping
and taxes, that worked out to $1200 CAD delivered to my doorstep. That
was a substantial savings over what the local guy wanted. When I
decide to purchase the minimum order of ten units from Shanghai, I am
pretty sure that I can get all ten units delivered to my doorstep for
about $6000 CAD in total. That is quite a substantial savings from the
local guys also. I have tested a single tube by holding it in the sun
for a few minutes and I can tell you that the outside of the glass is
cold as ice but the inside copper thermal pipe is as hot as an iron.
Flat plate solar collectors won't cut it, in my environment, so that is
why I invested in the evacuated tube solar water heater.
| |
| SolarFlare 2006-01-20, 7:21 pm |
| I have never done the exact figures on this but have
the same idea myself. I have to puit it on the shelf
for a few years yet but I intend to experiment the same
as you are talking.
It may run my ice/snow melting in my driveway at times.
Lots of volume but not much temp?
"Drums" <tgiorgi1@REMOVEnycap.rr.com> wrote in message
news:0ZZzf.97313$XJ5.71197@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
> Im sure they won't but Im not looking to get much out
of them in the dead of
> winter.
> I expect thay will help reduce my hot water heating
costs and provide some
> heat assistance
> in the milder months. If the outside temp is say 30
and the water temp
> reaches 90F on a sunny day
> that adding heat to the house is it not? Remeber
that this is not going to
> be a primary source.
> Im only looking to reduce my heating bill and hot
water bill. 6 Flat plates
> should give me
> at least 200 gallons of hot or warm water storage.
If insulated well that
> should reduce the heating load considerably
> on a sunny day no? I may well end up being that even
building my own won't
> give me much of a payback
> but I don't think would be the case running 6
collectors.
>
> "SolarFlare" <sf@hot.mail.invalid> wrote in message
> news:98Sdnfna7sY0wU3eRVn-tw@golden.net...
of[color=darkred]
message[color=darkred]
for a[color=darkred]
message[color=darkred]
solar[color=darkred]
much[color=darkred]
life at[color=darkred]
message[color=darkred]
news:1137661078.751702.48320@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...[color=darkred]
In[color=darkred]
few[color=darkred]
operate[color=darkred]
http://www.enviro-friendly.com/evac...hot-water.shtml[color=darkred]
>
>
| |
| Buy_Sell 2006-01-20, 9:21 pm |
| Reflectors/concentrator mirrors would definitely help but there would
be no insulation to keep the heat in. On one hand you are magnifying
the heat by concentrating it, but on the other hand that same tube is
exposed to the winter elements which negate the energy that you are
trying to gain. In order to get any amount of efficiency from a solar
collector in a cold environment, you must find a way to allow the sun's
rays in while keeping the cold environment out. The evacuated tube
solar collectors do just this. There is no better insulation than a
vacuum at over R40 per inch.
http://www.apricus-solar.com/html/s..._components.htm
---------------------------------------
SolarFlare Jan 20, 3:56 pm
Perhaps just using the reflector/concentrator mirrors
may do the job on a homemade unit for a lesser price.
| |
| Drums 2006-01-20, 10:21 pm |
| What if you Insulated the homeade flate plate very well?
Yea they would be heavy but I can get large Double pane glass doors for
almost nothing from salvage.
They allready have an aluminum frame.
"SolarFlare" <sf@hot.mail.invalid> wrote in message
news:yK-dnclEy98T90zenZ2dnUVZ_sOdnZ2d@golden.net...
> Perhaps just using the reflector/concentrator mirrors
> may do the job on a homemade unit for a lesser price.
>
> "Buy_Sell" <werkspace@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1137735806.423172.119410@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> coming down in
> natural gas prices
> per Gj and now they
> have added
> taxes and whatever
> with utility
> water collector
> foot over the
> heaters is that a
> collector. I thought
> sourcing around and
> minimum order of ten
> each plus shipping.
> because I wanted to see
> transaction. So
> from Fitch
> exchange rate, shipping
> my doorstep. That
> wanted. When I
> from Shanghai, I am
> my doorstep for
> substantial savings from the
> holding it in the sun
> of the glass is
> hot as an iron.
> environment, so that is
> heater.
>
>
| |
| SolarFlare 2006-01-21, 12:21 am |
| The biggest problem I have metally encountered on this
is any kind of concentrator takes a solar tracker and
they get complex and cost money and moving space.
"Drums" <tgiorgi1@REMOVEnycap.rr.com> wrote in message
news:K4gAf.100063$XJ5.91714@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
> What if you Insulated the homeade flate plate very
well?
> Yea they would be heavy but I can get large Double
pane glass doors for
> almost nothing from salvage.
> They allready have an aluminum frame.
>
>
>
> "SolarFlare" <sf@hot.mail.invalid> wrote in message
> news:yK-dnclEy98T90zenZ2dnUVZ_sOdnZ2d@golden.net...
mirrors[color=darkred]
price.[color=darkred]
news:1137735806.423172.119410@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...[color=darkred]
heaters is[color=darkred]
our[color=darkred]
$7[color=darkred]
they[color=darkred]
fees,[color=darkred]
up[color=darkred]
solar[color=darkred]
weeks.[color=darkred]
water[color=darkred]
USD[color=darkred]
a[color=darkred]
collector[color=darkred]
to[color=darkred]
delivered to[color=darkred]
outside[color=darkred]
as[color=darkred]
>
>
| |
| Buy_Sell 2006-01-21, 2:21 am |
| That idea would certainly help insulate the collector but not nearly as
efficient as a vacuum which has a huge insulation factor of R40 or
greater per inch. It is the insulation factor that is the most
important here for the colder climates.
I discovered a very simple solar air collector by accident. I work a
lot of night shifts, so during the daytime I am trying to get at least
8 hours of sleep. One day, the light coming in my bedroom window was
so bright that I just couldn't get any sleep. So, I hung a black
blanket in the window to block out the sunshine. I woke up a few hours
later in a very hot room. So, if you want a simple idea to heat your
house when you are away for the day at work, just hang black sheets in
the south facing windows of your home. It works very well.
But if you are trying to solar heat water as efficiently as possible in
cold climates, you are going to need all the help that you can get.
These evacuated tube solar collectors are so efficient that they are
producing heat even on the overcast days. Its the high insulation
factor of the thermos bottle style collector that is achieving this. I
cannot repeat this enough, a vacuum will give you the highest
insulation factor available.
Vacuum technology is now finding its way into insulating buildings,
refrigerators, etc.
http://www.glacierbay.com/vacpanelinfo.asp
----------------------------------
Drums Jan 20, 6:26 pm
What if you Insulated the homemade flate plate very well?
Yea they would be heavy but I can get large Double pane glass doors
for
almost nothing from salvage. They allready have an aluminum frame.
| |
| Anthony Matonak 2006-01-21, 5:21 am |
| Buy_Sell wrote:
....
> But if you are trying to solar heat water as efficiently as possible in
> cold climates, you are going to need all the help that you can get.
> These evacuated tube solar collectors are so efficient that they are
> producing heat even on the overcast days. Its the high insulation
> factor of the thermos bottle style collector that is achieving this. I
> cannot repeat this enough, a vacuum will give you the highest
> insulation factor available.
....
It's not the highest insulation that the fellow is really looking for,
it the best bang for the buck in heating. How hot it gets is the balance
point between energy going in via sunlight and going out via conduction,
radiation and convection. Better insulation means that there is less
energy going out but you could go the other way and use bigger panels,
reflectors or both.
Anthony
| |
| Buy_Sell 2006-01-21, 6:21 am |
| I could agree with this statement to a point. This point will be on
the cold overcast days when you need the heat more than ever. Your
solar heat gains are very low and your heat losses are huge from poor
insulation. Your very large collector is taking on very large heat
losses and you are getting no return on your investment. The idea of
using water is to provide a means of long term heat storage from your
solar water heater. When it gets really cold outside, a flat plate
collector has massive heat losses. The bigger the collector, the
bigger the heat loss. I went thru the same process as everyone else.
I've tried building these things on my own. I spend countless hours
scrounging around in the metal recycling yards, trying to find an
inexpensive solution to the problem. But it comes down to one thing,
insulation. A flat plate solar collector will reach a point where it
simply will not work, no matter how big it is. In colder climates,
it's heat losses outweigh any solar gains. Insulation, Insulation,
Insulation. I can't stress it enough. That is where you will get the
best bang for the buck...
--------------------------------------------------
Anthony Matonak Jan 21, 1:15 am
Buy_Sell wrote:
....
> But if you are trying to solar heat water as efficiently as possible in
> cold climates, you are going to need all the help that you can get.
> These evacuated tube solar collectors are so efficient that they are
> producing heat even on the overcast days. Its the high insulation
> factor of the thermos bottle style collector that is achieving this. I
> cannot repeat this enough, a vacuum will give you the highest
> insulation factor available.
....
It's not the highest insulation that the fellow is really looking for,
it the best bang for the buck in heating. How hot it gets is the
balance
point between energy going in via sunlight and going out via
conduction,
radiation and convection. Better insulation means that there is less
energy going out but you could go the other way and use bigger panels,
reflectors or both.
Anthony
| |
| wmbjk 2006-01-21, 11:21 am |
| On Fri, 20 Jan 2006 23:03:16 -0500, "SolarFlare" <sf@hot.mail.invalid>
wrote:
>The biggest problem I have metally encountered on this
>is any kind of concentrator takes a solar tracker and
>they get complex and cost money and moving space.
Perhaps if you actually built something, or even listened to those who
have, then you'd find it's not as difficult as you've "metally
encountered".
Wayne
| |
| Drums 2006-01-21, 12:21 pm |
| There is no doubt you can't beat that however I don't need the heat the most
on any day because I have an LP
furnace. The system I am proposing is strictly supplemental. The idea is to
reduce the average draw on the furnace and hot water heater.
If I had the spare cash I would spring for the vac tube unit.
"Buy_Sell" <werkspace@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1137835027.999087.84850@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> I could agree with this statement to a point. This point will be on
> the cold overcast days when you need the heat more than ever. Your
> solar heat gains are very low and your heat losses are huge from poor
> insulation. Your very large collector is taking on very large heat
> losses and you are getting no return on your investment. The idea of
> using water is to provide a means of long term heat storage from your
> solar water heater. When it gets really cold outside, a flat plate
> collector has massive heat losses. The bigger the collector, the
> bigger the heat loss. I went thru the same process as everyone else.
> I've tried building these things on my own. I spend countless hours
> scrounging around in the metal recycling yards, trying to find an
> inexpensive solution to the problem. But it comes down to one thing,
> insulation. A flat plate solar collector will reach a point where it
> simply will not work, no matter how big it is. In colder climates,
> it's heat losses outweigh any solar gains. Insulation, Insulation,
> Insulation. I can't stress it enough. That is where you will get the
> best bang for the buck...
> --------------------------------------------------
> Anthony Matonak Jan 21, 1:15 am
>
> Buy_Sell wrote:
>
> ...
>
> ...
>
> It's not the highest insulation that the fellow is really looking for,
> it the best bang for the buck in heating. How hot it gets is the
> balance
> point between energy going in via sunlight and going out via
> conduction,
> radiation and convection. Better insulation means that there is less
> energy going out but you could go the other way and use bigger panels,
> reflectors or both.
>
> Anthony
>
| |
| Buy_Sell 2006-01-21, 3:21 pm |
| I can agree with what you are saying. Every little bit helps.
------------------------------------
Drums Jan 21, 8:40 am
There is no doubt you can't beat that however I don't need the heat the
most on any day because I have an LP furnace. The system I am proposing
is strictly supplemental. The idea is to reduce the average draw on the
furnace and hot water heater.
If I had the spare cash I would spring for the vac tube unit.
"Buy_Sell" <werksp...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1137835027.999087.84850@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
> I could agree with this statement to a point. This point will be on
> the cold overcast days when you need the heat more than ever. Your
> solar heat gains are very low and your heat losses are huge from poor
> insulation. Your very large collector is taking on very large heat
> losses and you are getting no return on your investment. The idea of
> using water is to provide a means of long term heat storage from your
> solar water heater. When it gets really cold outside, a flat plate
> collector has massive heat losses. The bigger the collector, the
> bigger the heat loss. I went thru the same process as everyone else.
> I've tried building these things on my own. I spend countless hours
> scrounging around in the metal recycling yards, trying to find an
> inexpensive solution to the problem. But it comes down to one thing,
> insulation. A flat plate solar collector will reach a point where it
> simply will not work, no matter how big it is. In colder climates,
> it's heat losses outweigh any solar gains. Insulation, Insulation,
> Insulation. I can't stress it enough. That is where you will get the
> best bang for the buck...
> --------------------------------------------------
> Anthony Matonak Jan 21, 1:15 am
> Buy_Sell wrote:
> ...
[color=darkred]
> ...
> It's not the highest insulation that the fellow is really looking for,
> it the best bang for the buck in heating. How hot it gets is the
> balance point between energy going in via sunlight and going out via
> conduction, radiation and convection. Better insulation means that there is less
> energy going out but you could go the other way and use bigger panels,
> reflectors or both.
> Anthony
| |
| Solar Flare 2006-01-21, 3:21 pm |
| One thing many forget to take into avccout in the
person's "seriousness" or "urgency" to get this energy.
Sometimes these factors determine the willingness to
spend thousands to extract a few hundred worth.
"Buy_Sell" <werkspace@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1137868410.090736.55620@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> I can agree with what you are saying. Every little
bit helps.
>
> ------------------------------------
> Drums Jan 21, 8:40 am
>
> There is no doubt you can't beat that however I don't
need the heat the
> most on any day because I have an LP furnace. The
system I am proposing
> is strictly supplemental. The idea is to reduce the
average draw on the
> furnace and hot water heater.
> If I had the spare cash I would spring for the vac
tube unit.
>
> "Buy_Sell" <werksp...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
>
news:1137835027.999087.84850@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>
> - Hide quoted text -
> - Show quoted text -
point will be on[color=darkred]
than ever. Your[color=darkred]
are huge from poor[color=darkred]
very large heat[color=darkred]
investment. The idea of[color=darkred]
storage from your[color=darkred]
outside, a flat plate[color=darkred]
collector, the[color=darkred]
as everyone else.[color=darkred]
spend countless hours[color=darkred]
trying to find an[color=darkred]
down to one thing,[color=darkred]
reach a point where it[color=darkred]
colder climates,[color=darkred]
Insulation, Insulation,[color=darkred]
where you will get the[color=darkred]
>
>
efficiently as possible in[color=darkred]
that you can get.[color=darkred]
efficient that they are[color=darkred]
the high insulation[color=darkred]
is achieving this. I[color=darkred]
the highest[color=darkred]
>
>
really looking for,[color=darkred]
it gets is the[color=darkred]
and going out via[color=darkred]
insulation means that there is less[color=darkred]
use bigger panels,[color=darkred]
>
>
| |
| Buy_Sell 2006-01-21, 5:21 pm |
| The way that I look at the problem is like this.
The average home owner in Canada spends at least $1200 CAD/year to heat
his home. The utility companies are definitely increasing their
prices. My natural gas heating just went from $7/Gj to $16/Gj in only
six months. It could go back down again but the trends these days is
that the cost of making a living is not getting any easier. So, if I
were to purchase a complete evacuated solar heating system from the
manufacturer for approximately $6000 CAD, then I can see that in 5
years time, the return on my investment would be very good. I am just
an average Joe, but I can see the economics is this type of investment.
If I couldn't afford to make this kind of investment then I would
simply make any form of solar water heater that I could. Some free
energy is better than no free energy. Something as simply as hanging
black sheets in the south facing windows during the day will make a
difference in the cost of heating your home. Combine that idea with a
homemade version of the inside storm windows shown at this website.
http://www.windotherm.com/Replaceme...-howitworks.htm
It all makes a difference. If you want to save money, you have to
start somewhere.
On a side note, I wanted to share an interesting thought while I still
have it on my mind. I preach a lot about the value of insulation.
During the second world war, the US ran out of down to fill their
parkas, sleeping bags, life vests, etc. So, they search around for an
idea that would work just as well, not cost too much and be somewhat
fire retardant. The solution to their problem is around us almost
everyday and its free. It is the cotton from a plant called the "cat
tail" that you see in swampy areas on the side of roads and in marshes.
After the war, they went back to using down again. Don't under
estimate the value of this free insulation. It is somewhat fire
retardant and it is a very useful product. This idea just might save
your life one day, if you are ever put in the position where no other
insulation is available.
---------------------------------------------
Solar Flare Jan 21, 12:10 pm
One thing many forget to take into avccout in the
person's "seriousness" or "urgency" to get this energy.
Sometimes these factors determine the willingness to
spend thousands to extract a few hundred worth.
| |
|
| Buy_Sell wrote:
> Is your intention to heat water or heat air? In the case of solar
> water heaters, you might want to consider a few things. If you live in
> cooler climates, during the winter months the standard flat plate
> collector loses its efficiency very quickly. Whereby, the more modern
> thermos style solar water collectors will operate in very cold
> climates. Do a google search on the internet with the keywords,
> evacuated tube solar
>
> http://www.enviro-friendly.com/evac...hot-water.shtml
>
Hi,
You don't have to guess at how flat panels compare to evac tubes.
The SRCC tests flat panel and evac tube collectors and provides energy output
for various services (climates/uses) for sunny and partly cloudy days.
http://www.solar-rating.org/RATINGS/RATINGS.HTM
Then download "Directory of SRCC Certified Solar Collector Ratings"
There is measured performance for a hundred or so collectors of all kinds.
My rough conclusion is that if you are looking for heating water to moderate
temperatures, there is not as much differece between an evac tube and a well
made flat panel as people tend to think, even for cold climates.
Even if you buy the absorber plates premade, you can build a flat plate
collector for less than $8 per sqft -- its tough to build and evac tube
collector yourself :-)
--
Gary
www.BuildItSolar.com
gary@BuildItSolar.com
"Build It Yourself" Solar Projects
----== Posted via droptable.com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.droptable.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----
| |
| Buy_Sell 2006-01-23, 3:21 am |
| I went to the SRCC ratings website and downloaded all of the Pdf files
but I haven't been able to see your comparison between vacuum tube
solar water collectors and flat plate collectors. I went to the link
that you provided but the only comparison that I saw was glazed or
non-glazed flat plate collectors. An analogy of saying that the vacuum
tube solar collector is almost the same as a flat plate collector,
would be like saying that an uninsulated house should be just as
efficient as a well insulated house. I don't think so, but if you
could kindly direct me to exactly where these conclusions came from
then I would be more than happy to listen. PS: I really like your
website on solar projects. Well done.
--------------------------------------
Gary Jan 22, 9:38 pm
Buy_Sell wrote:
> Is your intention to heat water or heat air? In the case of solar
> water heaters, you might want to consider a few things. If you live in
> cooler climates, during the winter months the standard flat plate
> collector loses its efficiency very quickly. Whereby, the more modern
> thermos style solar water collectors will operate in very cold
> climates. Do a google search on the internet with the keywords,
> evacuated tube solar
> http://www.enviro-friendly.com/evac...hot-water.shtml
Hi,
You don't have to guess at how flat panels compare to evac tubes.
The SRCC tests flat panel and evac tube collectors and provides energy
output
for various services (climates/uses) for sunny and partly cloudy days.
http://www.solar-rating.org/RATINGS/RATINGS.HTM
Then download "Directory of SRCC Certified Solar Collector Ratings"
There is measured performance for a hundred or so collectors of all
kinds.
My rough conclusion is that if you are looking for heating water to
moderate
temperatures, there is not as much differece between an evac tube and a
well
made flat panel as people tend to think, even for cold climates.
Even if you buy the absorber plates premade, you can build a flat plate
collector for less than $8 per sqft -- its tough to build and evac tube
collector yourself :-)
--
Gary
www.BuildItSolar.com
g...@BuildItSolar.com
"Build It Yourself" Solar Projects
|
|
|
|
|